Maelstrom WeaponFollow

From my understanding last I heard it is indeed a PPM, which is based off of the damage you deal with your weapon.

But like what you seem to describe, I have had a SS-WF combo go off, and go from having no Maelstrom stacked to a full 5 stack.

So, in any case I am really happy with the way it is now, since it has pretty much given Ehanc. spec another spell to cast along with their shocks, SS, and LL.

Edited, Oct 21st 2008 1:11pm by Arsil

Right now maelstrom weapon works as a ppm type mechanic. The value has been reported as about 10ppm. We actually currently see much higher rates due to instant attacks and windfury attacks.

I am loving Mealstrom Weapon. I have mainly been using it as an offensive weapon. Throwing out instant lightning bolts and burning things down that much quicker. I hadn't really looked at its defensive nature priot to last night. I ended up pugging the Headless Horseman last night and the gruop I was in had a pally for a tank. The pally was having a hard time keeping aggro, so the group just decided to have me tank as an enhancement shaman! As I was continuing to DW for the DPS the priest had a few rough spots, mainly when the little pumpkins came out and attacked her. At those times I was finding that I had an Instant Healing Wave available to me through Mealstrom Weapon. We ended up wiping only once. It was great!

It seems that MSW only procs off say 20% of white hits. Ive seen a SS w/ WF proc put up all 5 procs instantly, but other times it takes 3-4 hits to find a charge.

i generally make sure ive got 5 MSW charges built up towards the end of a fight, its a good last resort, if they are out of range or running away while shocks on CD.

<3 MSW

If you're looking to maximize your chances for getting a MSW proc, you're going to want to go slow off-hand. The reasoning is as follows:

MSW is a PPM (proc per minute) mechanic. If one had a weapon with a 1sec swing time, on average one could expect a proc every 6 swings. If that weapon had a 2 second swing time, on average one would then expect a proc every 3 swings. Over the course of a minute of constant auto attacking in both cases, you would get 10 procs with either weapon. However, stormstrike and lavalash can also proc MSW. Looking at the above examples of a 1sec and 2sec swing time, the 1sec weapon would have about a 16.7% chance per swing to have a proc, but the 2sec swing time weapon would have a 33.3% chance per swing to have a proc. The higher chance per swing, combined with instant attacks (SS and LL) means more procs on average with a slow offhand due to the higher chance per swing.

As for which is better for PVP, well, the general consensus is still slow/slow all other things being equal, but fast offhands are much better than they were before.

ya I think Slow/slow on paper still wins with MSW slow will help you get more MSW procs off (when considering STorm Strike, Lava Lash, and windfury). Lava Lash Should hit harder with slower weapon (unless damage is normalized) if this is the case then even if you decide to use FT in off hand slow would still be preferred.

I think if a shaman wants to take advantage of Lava Lash and Maelstrom Weapon they will continue to use a slow off hand even if they use FT, Lava Lash wont do much damage with a fast off hand and with a slower Off hand you have a higher chance to get maelstrom weapon to proc with Lava Lash and Storm Strike attacks. PPM always work better with slower weapons (while with auto attacks makes no difference) but when you throw in extra attacks it is extra chances to PPM. Although if Lava Lash damage is normalized in damage and MSW doesn't offer enough damage then a faster off hand, then you may be right jademonkey.

/sigh, a simple statement that a fast OH is better than before (or maybe you would understand better if I said "not as bad as before") and it necessitates a 15 min response... Ok, here we go.

There will only be a difference between average the number of MSW procs observed over a period of time if instant attacks with the OH are used. In this case, we have two options to increase the average observed MSW procs through using a slower OH: LL and SS. However, the theoretical maximum average MSW proc gain caused by using a slow OH over a fast OH will never be observed in a real life situation due to GCD constraints, imperfect "time on target", or differing instantaneous priorities depending on the fight(eg. spell interrupts, purge, tremor, grounding, MSW stack spell cast, feral spirits, heroism, earth bind, poison/disease cleanse, etc). LL particularly will be very low on the priority list of actions to use, so the damage difference between a fast and slow weapon as a result of LL will be small and mostly negligible. The point also still remains that FT imbue scales well with decreased swing speeds, so the damage difference between a fast and slow OH will be narrowed even more.

These factors combine to make a fast OH more feasible (or less bad) now than it was in the entirety of TBC. Now, do you quite understand what I'm talking about?

*edit for spelling*


Edited, Oct 31st 2008 12:13pm by TheJadeMonkey

Nobody has mentioned this yet, so I figured I might as well.

The sole reason that a fast OH could ever be preferable is that FT scales significantly better the faster the swing speed. This is because while the base damage of FT is scalar, the bonus damage from Spell Power is a flat 10% independent of weapon speed. I have no idea on the math of it, but there is a point where the added damage from FT will outstrip the loss of damage on Lava Lash and Stomestrike.

That being said, WF/WF slow/slow is still easily the best setup (at least currently) for all intents and purposes.

Well, I mean, you're putting it out there that a fast off-hand is somehow a good idea. Which I don't agree with. And someone who didn't know their way around the spec or weapons for it might come here and read that information. So yeah, it did necessitate a response. However, much in the same manner that I'm not sure how you decided my post was a "15 minute response", I'm just not seeing how you're arriving at the conclusion that a fast off-hand is "better than before".


I think maybe where we're not seeing eye-to-eye here is the net value of a fast off-hand. If you want to make the statement that a fast off-hand with Flametongue is better than it used to be, then yeah, I would agree based on the increased value of Flametongue and Lava Lash. However, better than bad doesn't necessarily mean good. A fast off-hand still sucks. You're giving up damage in literally every facet off Enhancement Shaman DPS for off-hand auto-attacks. You're arguing that a fast off-hand with FT will yield more DPS than a slow off-hand with FT, and I'm saying that the point is completely irrelevent when you're still lowering your total net DPS. You're essentially robbing Peter to pay Paul and losing your own money in the transaction.

Now, as far as GCD constraints goes, that should never be an issue in PvE, especially with five-minute totem timers. In PvP, assuming you were also somehow too constrained to fit in Lava Lash (which I am honestly not seeing myself nor hearing from other Enhancers), then why would you even have a fast off-hand with Flametongue in the first place? Slow WF/slow WF would be far more beneficial in that case. The same is true for PvE. If you're not going to mess with Lava Lash then you're still better off going with slow WF/slow WF.

Your posts are becoming increasingly harder to understand.


What's your definition of optimal? Or feasible? Fast off-hands are baseline feasible, but what, pray tell, is the point if know it's going to yield a decrease in DPS? As I said, better than bad doesn't necessarily mean good.

If a fast off-hand always yields at least 1% less total DPS then it sucks. Any deliberate choice which directly results in a lower amount of DPS "sucks" in my book. Why would you do it? Aesthetics? If something is aesthetically pleasing to you, by all means, go for it, but make sure you're capable of distinguishing what you like from what is effective.


So your argument is that one should gaurantee themselves a lower amount of DPS in order to better accommodate MSW which works on the RNG and hope that makes up the difference and/or yields a DPS increase? That makes no sense whatsoever. Again, if you're facing GCD constraints as such that you feel the need to shed an attack from your rotation, Lava Lash seems like the obvious choice to me if MSW is up enough to consistently fill a rotation. And if that's the case, why are you even using FT on your off-hand instead of WF?

The other option would be to keep Lava Lash in with FT on to accomodate it, in which case a slower weapon is going to do you more good.


There's plenty to do in PvP; no one's arguing against that. But to suggest that you're going to be so busy that you're never going to be able to find a GCD to attack is assinine, especially when that's the entire point of your spec. If that's the case, we might as well assume SS, shocks, and MSW casts are out as well. Trust me; there is time and there is most definitely a place for Lava Lash in PvP. It's on-demand, armor-bypassing burst damage. You want that. Especially since MSW is typically better saved for heals the smaller the scale of PvP gets and, quite honestly, unless you're beating on a plate-wearer that's getting healed, you're unlikely to see more than a single full stack of MSW before a fight will be over.

As I said, your posts grew increasingly difficult to understand. It sounded to me like you were saying that fast off-hands had become good enough to the point that they could warrant use over a slow off-hand if one so desired and see either no change in net DPS or a small DPS increase.

If that's not the case, then I agree, we're done arguing. I guess I'm just not used to people making completely superfluous statements and then clawing tooth and nail to defend them. Usually when people do that they have a point to make.

Edited, Nov 1st 2008 5:59am by Gaudion

I love you Gaudion, you're such a prick and so much fun to argue/debate with.