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Retribution GuideFollow

#1 Jan 20 2008 at 5:06 PM Rating: Excellent
**
648 posts
This guide is designed for PVE. For PVP you'll want to talk to some of the other more skilled PVP Rets (or if you have a pvp guide I can add it in here and give you appropriate credit). This guide is intented to introduce you to the new and almost completely different Retribution Paladin of the Cataclysm. This will include a general overview of skills and talents relevant to Retribution for new and veteran Paladins alike along with as much information as possible to get you a solid head start into Cataclysm Heroic 5 mans and introductory raiding.

First off I'd like to say thank you to several people who encouraged me to do this and helped to make it as useful as it is: Capjack of the Seven Seas, tommyguns (much of the formation of my opinions came from his posts), The RuenBahamut of Doom, Vaeliorin, Jornam

This is mostly updated to 4.0.1, but is not 100% complete. Additional information or corrections are much appreciated. Also I'll be rearranging some of this information shortly.

Table of Contents:

1.0 About Retribution
  • 1.1 Introducing the Cataclysm Retribution Paladin
  • 1.2 What does a Retribution Paladin bring to a group?
  • 1.3 Important Stats
  • 1.4 Gear Selection

  • 2.0 Spells and Abilities
  • 2.1 White Damage
  • 2.2 Seal of Truth
  • 2.3 Judgement
  • 2.4 Crusader Strike
  • 2.5 Exorcism
  • 2.6 Hammer of Wrath
  • 2.7 Templar's Verdict
  • 2.8 Seal of Righteousness
  • 2.9 Divine Storm
  • 2.10 Holy Wrath
  • 2.11 Consecration
  • 2.12 Avenging Wrath
  • 2.13 Zealotry
  • 2.14 Inquisition
  • 2.15 Hammer of Justice
  • 2.16 Rebuke
  • 2.17 Repentance
  • 2.18 Turn Evil
  • 2.19 Hand of Sacrifice
  • 2.20 Hand of Salvation
  • 2.21 Hand of Protection
  • 2.22 Hand of Freedom


  • 3.0 Professions
  • 3.1 Blacksmithing
  • 3.2 Jewelcrafting
  • 3.3 Enchanting
  • 3.4 Skinning
  • 3.5 Inscription
  • 3.6 Engineering
  • 3.7 Archaeology
  • 3.7 Other

  • 4.0 Talents
  • 4.1 Holy
  • 4.1.1 Arbiter of the Light
  • 4.1.2 Judgements of the Pure
  • 4.1.3 Blazing Light
  • 4.1.4 Other
  • 4.2 Protection
  • 4.2.1 Divinity Strength
  • 4.2.2 Seals of the Pure
  • 4.2.3 Other
  • 4.3 Retribution
  • 4.3.1 Eye for an Eye
  • 4.3.2 Crusade
  • 4.3.3 Improved Judgement
  • 4.3.4 Guardian's Favor
  • 4.3.5 Rule of Law
  • 4.3.6 Pursuit of Justice
  • 4.3.7 Communion
  • 4.3.8 Art of War
  • 4.3.9 Long Arm of the Law
  • 4.3.10 Divine Storm
  • 4.3.11 Rebuke
  • 4.3.12 Sanctity of Battle
  • 4.3.13 Seals of Command
  • 4.3.14 Sanctified Wrath
  • 4.3.15 Selfless Healer
  • 4.3.16 Repentance
  • 4.3.17 Divine Purpose
  • 4.3.18 Inquiry of Faith
  • 4.3.19 Acts of Sacrifice
  • 4.3.20 Zealotry

  • 5.0 Gear List
  • 5.1 Basic Gear List
  • 5.1.1 Weapon
  • 5.1.2 Libram
  • 5.1.3 Head
  • 5.1.4 Neck
  • 5.1.5 Shoulder
  • 5.1.6 Back
  • 5.1.7 Chest
  • 5.1.8 Wrist
  • 5.1.9 Hands
  • 5.1.10 Legs
  • 5.1.11 Waist
  • 5.1.12 Feet
  • 5.1.13 Ring
  • 5.1.14 Trinkets
  • 5.1.15 Glyphs

  • 5.2 Gems
  • 5.2.1 Red
  • 5.2.2 Blue
  • 5.2.3 Yellow
  • 5.2.4 Purple
  • 5.2.5 Orange
  • 5.2.6 Green
  • 5.2.7 Prismatic
  • 5.2.8 Meta
  • 5.3 Enchants
  • 5.3.1 Weapon
  • 5.3.2 Head
  • 5.3.3 Shoulder
  • 5.3.4 Cloak
  • 5.3.5 Chest
  • 5.3.6 Wrist
  • 5.3.7 Hands

  • 5.3.7 Leg
  • 5.3.8 Feet
  • 5.3.9 Ring

  • 6.0 Consumables
  • 6.1 Food
  • 6.2 Potions and Elixirs

  • 7.0 Other Resources


    1.0 About Retribution:

    1.1 Introducing the Cataclysm Retribution Paladin:

    Retribution is the fastest spec for solo leveling via quests. Retribution has gone through several phases of popularity ranging from completely shunned to the Burning Crusade's one ret per raid acceptance to being the most overpowered dps spec in early Wrath. Recently it has been toned down in both PVE and PVP to a highly competitive but no longer excessively overpowered dps spec.

    However, for all this time in the last 3 expansions, one theme remained the same - Retribution was a simple spec to play, often referred to as a faceroll spec. Wrath of the Lich King finally allowed us to see our old friend Arthas come to an end. However, this victory has come at a cost. The faceroll Paladin of the past (all 3 specs) has died with him. Welcome to the Cataclysmic Paladin.

    This new Retribution Paladin requires a considerable amount of focus, brining a more engaging playstyle that will be more exciting to play for those that are able to keep up with the new pace of Retribution in The Cataclysm. In addition to all the fight mechanics that we've always had to watch for, we have a rotation that will change considerably depending on procs and fights that require the incredible utility that a Retribution Paladin with more regularity. Expect to dust off your Repentance, learn to interrupt (yes, a real, honest to goodness, off the GCD, 10s CD interrupt!) and re-read the tooltips on those Hand spells you've almost never used. And we'll still be expected to pull our weight doing competitive DPS.


    1.2 What does a Retribution Paladin bring to a group?:

    A properly specced and played Ret brings, 3% increased raid damage (Communion), mana regeneration (replenishment via Communion), minor healing (Divine Storm, Judgement, and emergency Word of Glory), targeted threat reduction (Hand of Salvation), limited Immunity (Hand of Protection), reducing another targets damage by sharing it (Hand of Sacrifice), removal of slows or snares (Hand of Freedom), an interrupt (Rebuke), and crowd control (Repentance), 2 powerful buffs to choose from Blessing of Might (10% AP + mp5) and Blessing of Kings (5% stats + resistances). While most of these abilities will be present in 10 & 25 man raids from other classes, few other classes offer this much Utility in one spec. High utility, high DPS and low maintenance make us one of the most preferred DPS specs now.

    As a Retribution Paladin with the proper gear you can keep your group from wiping in many emergency situations. This can be as simple as a heal for the tank when the healer has a hard time keeping up, or taunting mobs off your healer or softer DPS when the tanks taunts are resisted or CC is broken early, etc. Always keep an eye out for any situation in your group where some ability you have will prevent deaths or ensure the success of the group.

    1.3 Important Stats:

    As you level your Retribution Paladin, you'll notice that in addition to the 5 base stats (Strength, Agility, Stamina, Intellect, and Spirit) there are several other stats that are available on our gear. Some of these, like Strength (str), Hit Rating, Crit Rating, Expertise (exp), Haste, and Mastery all have definite usefulness for Ret Pallies. Some, like Agility (agi), Intellect (int), Stamina (sta) all have some use for Retribution Paladins, but are far less important to directly gear for. Some, like Spirit and tanking stats, should never be taken if possible.

    As you look at your abilities and how all these stats affect them, you'll see that str, crit and Hit all directly affect nearly all of our abilities. Haste and Expertise only affect a few abilities, but are still very useful. With Sheath of Light giving SP from Attack Power there is no need to try to stack int directly on your gear. For those interested I'll have the math for how each affects your damage at the end. Also I'll add the spell coefficients for the other spells you may use depending on the situation.

    As Ret you will find that you need hit and exp to ensure your other stats will be worth maximum value. After you reach hit and exp caps, str, crit, haste and mastery will give you the biggest increases to your DPS.


    1.4 Gear Selection:

    Before the Cataclysm we have often found ourselves wearing leather and mail armor despite being a plate class. This was due to odd itemization and agi/crit/ap stacking especially on leather gear. In Cataclysm we are learning a new passive ability called Plate Specialization. With this learned we will gain 5% of our primary stat. As a Retribution Paladin this will be strength. With the reduced gain from agility gear and this 5% str boost there will be nearly no reason to ever take gear that's not plate unless it's a very large upgrade.

    In general a higher item level piece of plate dps gear will likely be an upgrade due to reforging. Even if a piece of gear has a slightly less desirable stat, we can reforge it to a more desirable stat that's not on it already.


    2.0 Spells and Abilities:

    These are the main spells and abilities that you will use as a Retribution Paladin. This isn't intended as a play by play of how to play Retribution, but I'll go through each one briefly and describe its usefulness to a Retribution Paladin. These are generally grouped as primarily single target abilities (2.1-2.7), primarily AoE abilities (2.8-2.11), damage increasing buffs (2.12-2.14), cc/utility (2.15-2.22). While I'm including Inquisition, this will not be available until level 81.

    2.1 White Damage:

    White damage, or auto-attack, is typically one of our largest single sources of DPS. This ability is based on your weapon and scales with your attack power, exp, and Haste and hits and crits based on your melee hit and crit chances. This is the base of your attack. It takes xx AP (xx str) to get one dps from white damage.

    2.2 Seal of Truth:

    Seal of Truth deals 12.5% AP + 12.5% SP (increased by 6/12 by Seals of the Pure)over 15 seconds. This stacks up to 5 times for a total at 5 stacks of 62.5% AP + 62.5% SP over 15 seconds. Additionally, once you have reached 5 stacks of Corruption, each melee attack will deal 16% of WD as Holy Damage. This ability stacks fairly slowly as only melee attacks will apply/refresh the stack, so it is best used on targets that will live longer than about 20 seconds (takes ~15 seconds to stack for most Rets). This is the best seal to use on any single target boss fight.

    When this seal is active your Judgement spell will deal (14% AP + 22% SP +1) multiplied by 10% additional damage times the number of stacks. At a full stack this will do base damage times 50% (i.e. 21% AP + 33% SP +1).

    2.3 Judgement:

    In Wrath of the Lich King our Judgement ability was split into 3 different spells, each with different effects. This was a short lived change and Judgements are once again combined into a single Judgement spell. This ability "Unleashes the energy of a Seal to judge an enemy for Holy Damage". There is no longer a Judgement of Wisdom or Justice effect, and Judgement now returns only 1% of max health per attack on the target. With the greatly increased health pools in Cataclysm this will still be a significant amount of healing.

    Judgement has a base range of 10 yards, but with 2 points in Improved Judgement this increases to 30 yards total. Judging a target farther than 15 yards away will increase your movement speed by 45% which will help with fights with heavy amounts of movement. Judgement is also still our source for mana, both for ourselves (via our Judgements of the Bold primary skill and replenishment via Communion). Judgement also increases our melee and casting haste by 9% with 3 points in Judgements of the Pure. It will also have a 40% chance to generate a point of Holy Power with 2 points in Divine Purpose. As you can tell, depsite the seemingly less damage that Judgement is doing now, it will still be a very important ability in our rotation due to the incredible amount of utility it provides us personally and also our party or raid. Because of this, Judgement will be next priority after Templar's Verdict and Crusader Strike.

    2.4 Crusader Strike:

    Crusader Strike (CS) is a fair amount of your damage and should be hit every time its up unless you already have 3 Holy Power. CS does 100% of weapon damage on a 4.5 second CD, and does not benefit from spell power. CS also grants you a charge of Holy Power (this is our only 100% guaranteed Holy Power generator). This ability will also proc any seal you have up. Additionally, it can now be talented to deal an additional 30% damage and have an additional 15% crit chance. With Sanctity of Battle we can also decrease the cooldown of CS with haste. Because of this CS should be every second attack we make unless another ability generates a 3rd Holy Power.

    2.5 Exorcism:

    Exorcism is a single target spell that deals Holy damage. By itself it is not an amazing abilty due to the cast time resetting our swing timer and the moderate damage it does. It benefits from 15% SP but has a 1.5 second cast time. With Art of War our melee attacks have a chance to make Exorcism free, instant cast and do double damage. When this procs Exorcism will be nearly the highest damage ability we can hit after Templar's Verdict. It can also be talented to increas it's damage by 20% and to have a 40% chance to generate a charge of Holy Power. After CS, TV and Judgement an AoW Exorcism is the next highest priority spell.

    2.6 Hammer of Wrath:

    Hammer of wrath is a great finishing move. It deals holy damage on targets with less than 20% hp and has a range of 30 yards. With 3 points in Sanctified Wrath this has an additional 60% crit chance and can be used regardless of the targets health % whenever Avenging Wrath is available. Because of its range its also a good finishing technique for runners. This ability scales based on 15% AP + 15% SP.

    2.7 Templar's Verdict:

    Templar's Verdict is our special attack gained when we choose Retribution as our specialization. This is an instant melee attack that will consume our charges of Holy Power and deal damage based on how many charges it consumes. With 3 charges it will deal 225% Weapon Damage. This can be talented to gain an additional 30% damage (Crusade), 12% crit chance (Arbiter of the Light) and have a 40% chance to generate a Holy Power (Divine Purpose). On a single target this will be our highest priority ability any time we have 3 Holy Power or when we get a Hand of Light proc (mastery bonus) which causes any Holy Power ability to consume no Holy Power and act as if it was cast with 3 Holy Power.


    2.8 Seal of Righteousness:

    Seal of Righteousness is arguably the best DPS seal for trash and PVP. Seal of Righteousness deals Melee Weapon Speed * (1.1% of AP + 2.2% of SP) damage as holy damage on each attack. Additionally, with Seals of Command it will deal an additional 7% weapon damage and chain to 2 additional targets nearby. Used correctly on multiple mobs and boss fights with two or more targets nearby this seal can do very large amounts of damage boosting your dps considerably. This seal is not ideal on single targets and should only be used on AoE fights.

    When this seal is active your Judgement spell will deal xxx? as Holy damage. This is by far the most underwhelming Judgement we have, however, on multiple mobs the Seal itself more than makes up for it.

    2.9 Divine Storm:

    Divine Storm deals has been changed to be a Holy Power consuming ability. It now consumes your Holy Power stacks and deals damage based on how many Holy Power you have to all targets (not only 4 anymore) around you and heals up to 3 party members for a total amount of 25% of the total damage done. With 3 Holy Power this will deal 150% Weapon damage. The healing done is split among the 3 people healed rather than each healed for the full amount. For example, Divine Storm hits 4 targets for 1000 each totaling 4000. This will heals 3 targets for 333 each. With more than one mob this abiltiy should be top priority any time you have 3 Holy Power. This can also be talented to have a 40% chance to generate a Holy Power.

    2.10 Holy Wrath:

    Holy Wrath can now be used against any target. Yes, that means this is now a full fledged AoE spell for any situation we find ourselves in. Additionally when used against Demons and Undead it will stun them for 3 seconds on a 15 second cooldown. Holy Wrath deals holy damage to all demons and undead within 10 yards. This scales based on 30% SP. Additionally, with Divine Purpose this will have a 40% chance to generate a charge of Holy Power.

    2.11 Consecration:

    Consecration deals holy damage over 10 seconds to any mob within 8 yards on a 30 second cooldown. It scales based on 2% AP + 2% SP per tick. This has a high mana cost and lower single target damage, and should be used primarily for AoE fights. It can be glyphed to last 2 seconds longer and increasing it's cooldown by 6 seconds, reducing its effective mana cost by 25% over the original cost per damage dealt.

    2.12 Avenging Wrath:

    This is a key Paladin ability and especially useful for Ret Pallies. This will increase the damage and healing done by 20% for 20 seconds every 3 minutes and is best used during Heroism or other raid damage increasing abilities. Note: Avenging Wrath has a shared internal CD with Divine Shield and Hand of Protection of 30 seconds. Be careful to hold off if you expect to need any of these soon. This is not on the GCD and can be macro'd together with Zealotry for maximum effect of both abilities.

    2.13 Zealotry:

    Zealotry consumes 3 Holy Power and causes your Crusader Strikes to generate 3 charges of Holy Power per strike rather than 1 per strike for 20 seconds. During this 20 seconds you can alternate between CS and either TV for a single target or DS for aoe. This can be macro'd together with Avenging Wrath for maximum effect.

    Example macro for AW+Zealotry:
    #showtooltip Zealotry
    /cast Avenging Wrath
    /cast Zealotry

    The #showtooltip Zealotry is because you can only use this when you have 3 Holy Power and this allows you to see both when the cooldown is available and when you have the Holy Power to activate this. Avenging Wrath needs to be first since it is not on the GCD but can not be cast while you are on the GCD.

    2.14 Inquisition:

    Inquisition is a third damage increasing ability that we gain at level 81. This will consume any Holy Power we have and increase our Holy Damage by 30% for 4 seconds per charge of Holy Power. This can be talented to be increased by 2.5 times for a total of 30 seconds at 3 charges of Holy Power.

    This only affects the damage dealt by Seals, Judgement, Exorcism, Hammer of Wrath, Holy Wrath and Consecration. Because of the limitation to Holy Damage and the high percentage of damage that comes from physical damage this ability is not ideal to maintain for the loss of a Templar's Verdict. Depending on gear scaling at 85 this may change.

    2.15 Hammer of Justice:

    Hammer of Justice stuns a target for 6 seconds. This has a 10 yard range and a 1 minute cooldown. While it is possible to get 2 points in Improved Hammer of Justice to decrease the cooldown by 20 seconds, this is not ideal because of the damage increasing talents we would need to pass on. Hammer of Justice can be a great tool to keep you or your party alive by giving you (and your healer) 6 seconds of breathing room on any target that is not immune to stuns.

    2.16 Rebuke:

    Rebuke is Retributions long asked for dedicated Interrupt. This has a 10 second cooldown and will interrupt spellcasting and lockout that school of magic for 4 seconds.

    2.17 Repentance:

    Repentance is Retribution's crowd control (cc) ability. It will force a target to meditate for 1 minute. Any damage caused to the target will break them out of their meditation and the cooldown is 1 minute, so careful placement of your Repentance targets is necessary.

    2.18 Turn Evil:

    Turn Evil is an additional form of cc that can be used when there is plenty of room and an undead or demon target. This will cause an undead or demon to flee in fear for 20 seconds. This has a 1.5 second cast time and any damage caused will break the target of it fear. Do not use this with other groups nearby as it will likely aggro those groups.

    2.19 Hand of Sacrifice:

    Hand of Sacrifice will transfer 30% of any damage taken on the target to yourself for 12 seconds or until 100% of your health has been transfered. This has a 2 minute cooldown. Proper timing of this can save either a tanks life or any other party member that may be targeted by a high damage ability.

    2.20 Hand of Salvation:

    Hand of Salvation can be placed on any friendly target, including yourself, and will reduce their total threat by 2% per second for 10 seconds. This will reduce their threat a total of 20%. This affects their total threat not just the threat they're generating at the time. Using this on yourself or any other high threat DPSer that doesn't have their own threat dump can save a life.

    2.21 Hand of Protection:

    Hand of Protection will protect the friendly target from any physical attacks for 10 sec and will prevent them from dealing any physical abilities.

    2.22 Hand of Freedom:

    Hand of Freedom will grant immunity to movement impairing effects for 6 seconds. Use this when yourself or another member of your party or raid needs to avoid being slowed.



    Edited, Oct 12th 2010 8:07pm by toolofjesus

    Edited, Oct 15th 2010 3:31am by toolofjesus
    ____________________________
    Muralimohan
    Camila
    Murali
    Feanis
    #2 Jan 20 2008 at 5:06 PM Rating: Excellent
    **
    648 posts
    3.0 Professions:

    Professions are largely personal preference for Retribution Paladins, but I'll list here a few that are possibly more useful.

    3.1 Blacksmithing:
    Blacksmithing is one of the more useful professions for the PVE Retribution Paladin. This profession when leveled during the leveling process can give the Paladin access to fairly easy to acquire gear and even can provide easy to make Epic gear at max level. All of this can be replaced with raid gear, though, and could be bought from another blacksmith. The biggest advantage of Blacksmithing is the ability to add sockets to some of your gear. You can add 1 socket each to your Bracers, Gloves, and Belt (although the belt socket is available to anyone).

    3.2 Jewelcrafting:
    Jewelcrafting along with Blacksmithing is considered to be the best combination of professions for the raiding Retribution Paladin (as well as for nearly everyone else). With Jewelcrafting you can make JC only gems that are considerably better than the gems generally available to non-JCs. Combined with 2 extra sockets to put these in, you can get the largest increase of Strength compared to any other professions.

    3.3 Enchanting:
    You will need your gear enchanted several times as you gear up through end game raids and heroics. Most of the enchants you will need are rather costly and being able to do them yourself is very helpful. Also being a generous enchanter can help make you rather popular in your guild. The strength enchant for your rings is also a nice addition that you can only get as an enchanter.

    3.4 Skinning:
    While the leather itself won't be very useful for much to you, the bonus crit rating is a fairly good profession bonus. The leather can also be sold for a decent profit.

    3.5 Inscription:
    Inscription's primary advantage is in providing easy to acquire shoulder enchants that are better than the ones provided from Sons of Hodir rep.

    3.6 Engineering:
    Engineering provides mostly fun items, and items that are quite useful for non-combat situations. The explosives and self enchants however can be moderately useful even in combat and the Reinforced Bio-Optic Killshades that are engineer only are likely going to be your best helm going into the first Cataclysm raids. Engineering is less of a dps boost than some of the other professions, but the biggest draw is the rocket boots enchant which can be immensely useful for getting out of the proverbial fire.

    3.7 Other:
    Other professions can be useful to a degree, but won't offer as much of a bonus as these.


    4.0 Talents:
    While I won't tell you 100% how to spec your char I will go through my recommendations for PVE. For a PVP spec there are others much more knowledgeable than myself. For those wanting a quick spec recommendation, I'd suggest this one.

    4.1 Holy:

    4.1.1 Arbiter of the Light:
    This will increase your crit chance by 6/12% for both Templar's Verdict and Judgement. Templar's Verdict will be one of our top damage sources and Judgement is an extremely important spell that we'll be using nearly every time it's available. This will be a significant dps increase.

    4.1.2 Judgements of the Pure:
    Judgements of the Pure grants you 9% haste when you use your Judgement. Absolutely essential towards getting our Crusader Strike closer to 3 seconds to minimize empty spaces in the rotation.

    4.1.3 Blazing Light:
    This increases the damage of our Exorcism by 10/20%. This will be a significant dps boost as Exorcism (with an AoW proc) is already one of the hardest hitting spells at 80 without access to this talent yet. (note: this will only be accessible for ret in the Cataclysm expansion at a minimum of lvl 81)

    4.1.4 Other:
    Anything else in Holy is a waste of talent points for a Ret.

    4.2 Protection:

    4.2.1 Divinity:
    This will not be a dps boost and generally should not be taken. This would increase your survivability as it will allow you to require less mana to keep up. However, other than possibly very occasional situations these points will be much better spent in other places.

    4.2.2 Seals of the Pure:
    Seal damage will continue to be a significant portion of our damage and these are 2 very well spent points. This will increase the damage of your Seal of Truth and Seal of Righteousness by 6/12%.

    4.2.3 Other:
    While there are other abilities in Prot that might be useful for utility, the talents are better spent in the Ret or Holy tree.

    4.3 Retribution:

    4.3.1 Eye for an Eye:
    Eye for an Eye still have a chance to deal damage to an attacker. However, this now is only useful against magic damage, but does work against all magic attacks. In heavy AoE fights, this would be moderately useful. However, considering its only a 20/40% chance to deal 30% of the damage back this will be unlikely to every be a truly good place to put talent points.

    4.3.2 Crusade:
    This will increase the damage of our Crusader Strike and Templar's Verdict by 10/20/30%. These are our 2 top priority abilities from level 10 on. If I need to tell you to take this as Ret, you should go Holy.

    4.3.3 Improved Judgement:
    Increases the range of Judgement. Not a significant dps increase, but this combined with Long Arm of the Law later in the tree give us increased mobility which will be helpful in many fights.

    4.3.4 Guardian's Favor:
    This will reduce the cooldown of Hand of Protection by 60/120 seconds and increase the duration of Hand of Freedom by 2/4 seconds. There are very few utility points available to us and this is one of the 2 places to spend the 3 points we have for utility. Take these if threat is not an issue for you.

    4.3.5 Rule of Law:
    This increases the crit chance of Crusader Strike (and Word of Glory) by 5/10/15%. This is not an exciting talent, but a straightforward damage increase for one of our top abilities. Definitely worth taking.

    4.3.6 Pursuit of Justice:
    This should be in your spec. The extra movement speed will help you avoid fires, and other things on the ground and will allow you to get into (or back into) dps range faster. Additionally, they've added a 50/100% chance to gain a charge of holy power when stunned, feared or immobilize effect.

    4.3.7 Communion
    Replenishment for your raid. 3% additional damage for your raid. An additional 2% damage for you. Absolutely worth 3 points.

    4.3.8 Art of War:
    This will cause your melee attacks to have a 7/14/20% chance make your next Exorcism instant cast, free and double damage when your melee attacks crit... With these procs Exorcism will hit like a truck and cost you nothing but a GCD to do it.

    4.3.9 Long Arm of the Law:
    Long arm of the Law gives your Judgement a 50/100% chance to increase your movement speed by 45% when you Judge a target farther than 15 yards away. This will allow you to get into range much faster on heavy movement fight.

    4.3.10 Divine Storm:
    Consumes Holy Power to deal a percent of weapon damage based your stack of Holy Power to all targets nearby and provides 25% of its total damage done as healing divided between 3 players nearby. While we won't be using this nearly as much as we used to because Templar's Verdict will almost always be a better choice for using our Holy Power, this will have its uses in AoE fights. This should generally only be used if you have 3 or more targets in close range to you.

    4.3.11 Rebuke:
    Yes, Retribution Paladins finally get the long asked for honest interrupt. This is off the GCD, and on a 10 second cooldown. Definitely take it, and no longer do we need to rely on those less reliable rogues and death knights for quality interrupts.

    4.3.12 Sanctity of Battle:
    This will allow haste effects to also reduce the cooldown of our Crusader Strike. Our goal is to use this to get the cooldown to 3 seconds from the base cd of 4.5 so that we have little to no dead space in our rotation. This makes haste a very good stat for us.

    4.3.13 Seals of Command:
    This will cause your Seal of Righteousness, Seal of Truth and Seal of Justice to also deal 7% additional weapon damage each time you swing. It also turns Seal of Righteousness into our replacement for Seal of Command that has been taken away from us.

    4.3.14 Sanctified Wrath:
    This will increase the crit chance of Hammer of Wrath by 20/40/60%, Reduce the cooldown on Avenging Wrath by 20/40/60 seconds and allow us to use Hammer of Wrath when Avenging Wrath is up regardless of the targets health. The increased crit for HoW is good. The reduced cd for AW is even better. Allowing HoW during AW is less exciting since HoW is hitting for less than most other abilities in our rotation and will only be used as a filler when Judement is on CD and we don't have an AoW proc.

    4.3.15 Selfless Healer:
    While this is a very interesting idea (rewarding utility) the increased damage does not make up for the lost Templar's Verdict in most cases. If they increase the duration or % per Holy Power charge this could become an interesting place to put points. As things are right now at 80, however, this is not a compelling place to put points.

    4.3.16 Repentance:
    This is our CC ability. Will repent a target (Demons, Dragonkin, Giants, Humanoids, and Undead) for 1 minute with a 1 minute cooldown. Since CC will be increasingly important in Cataclysm, this will be a very important ability to have.

    4.3.17 Divine Purpose:
    This will give all of our main abilities other than CS a 20/40% chance to generate a charge of Holy Power. This includes: Judgement, Exorcism, Templar's Verdict, Divine Storm, Inquisition and Holy Wrath. This should definitely be taken since it will allow us to use TV more often. This will require us to pay more attention to our Holy Power stacks since it will not always take 3 CSs to get a full stack.

    4.3.18 Inquiry of Faith:
    This will increase the periodic damage of Seal of Damage by 10/20/30% and increase the duration of Inquisition by 50/100/150%. Clearly a dps increase even if we don't use Inquisition.

    4.3.19 Acts of Sacrifice:
    Acts of Sacrifice is the other place to put the 2 utility points available to us. This will be especially important if you find yourself having threat issues. This will reduce the cooldown and mana cost of Hand of Freedom, Hand of Salvation and Hand of Sacrifice by 10/20/30%.

    4.3.20 Zealotry:
    Zealotry will be an additional dps boosting cooldown ability for us. This will consume 3 Holy Power, but will cause all Crusader Strikes for the next 20 seconds to generate 3 charges of Holy Power. This will allow a simple spam of CS -> TV for 20 seconds. This can also be used together with Avenging Wrath for increased benefit.


    Edited, Oct 12th 2010 8:02pm by toolofjesus

    Edited, Oct 15th 2010 3:26am by toolofjesus
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    #3 Jan 20 2008 at 5:07 PM Rating: Excellent
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    5.0 Gear List:

    I have not yet had time to put together a complete list with all the changes. However, a decent Best in slot list (BiS) can be found at Elitist Jerks.

    Edited, Oct 12th 2010 8:06pm by toolofjesus
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    #4 Jan 20 2008 at 5:08 PM Rating: Excellent
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    Reserved for future expansion of the gear list..


    Edited, Mar 28th 2008 11:15am by toolofjesus

    Edited, Jan 18th 2010 2:05pm by toolofjesus
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    #5 Jan 20 2008 at 5:09 PM Rating: Excellent
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    5.2 Gems:

    5.2.1 Red:
    The best red gems are the Bold (str) gems, [/link]Bold Cardinal Ruby. For JC’s Bold Dragon's Eye .

    5.2.2 Blue:
    You will need one blue sockets to activate your Meta gem. That one gem should be a the Nightmare Tear listed below.

    5.2.3 Yellow:
    For yellow sockets Rigid (hit) are handy to get to hit cap. If you don’t have 263 hit rating you can use Rigid King's Amber till you get there. These should only be used to meet yellow socket bonuses though. The Bold Cardinal Ruby will still be better in most other slots.

    5.2.4 Purple:
    You will need one blue sockets to activate your Meta gem. That one gem should be a the Nightmare Tear listed below.

    5.2.5 Orange:
    There are 2 reasons to use Orange gems. First you have less than 263 hit rating and need Etched Ametrine gems. Secondly, you have 263 hit rating and want to activate a socket bonus (+str bonuses only). In this case, use Inscribed Ametrine gems. This really shouldn't be necessary often and should only be used if the Socket bonus is at very least +6 str.

    5.2.6 Green:
    There is no reason for any PVE Ret Pally to use a green gem. Ever.

    5.2.7 Prismatic:
    The best options to meet all your Meta Gem requirements is the Nightmare Tear. This will give you +10 to all stats which is by far the best gem to meet a blue gem requirement for Ret.

    5.2.8 Meta:
    For Meta gems a Relentless Earthsiege Diamond is the best choice. This will require 1 yellow gem and 1 blue gem as mentioned above. Any other meta will be inferior in it's dps increase. While the crit on Chaotic Skyflare Diamond seems better than the agility on the Relentless, the 2 blue gems (or purple) will be more of a dps loss than the difference in crit between agility and pure crit rating.


    5.3 Enchants:

    5.3.1 Weapon:
    There are several weapon enchants that would be handy for a Ret. For pure dps Berserking is easily the best enchant you can get. For less expensive enchants, Greater Savagery or Massacre are fairly good enchants also.

    5.3.2 Head:
    There is one good Glyph for your helmet. Arcanum of Torment from revered reputation with Knights of the Ebon Blade is the only helm enchant worth using.

    5.3.3 Shoulder:
    Greater Inscription of the Axe from Exalted Reputation with Sons of Hodir or the lesser version are the shoulder enchants for us.

    5.3.4 Cloak:
    For cloak enchants it’s a toss-up between Major Agility (22 agi) and Greater Speed (23 haste).

    5.3.5 Chest:
    For chest the best enchant is Powerful stats (+10 to all stats).

    5.3.6 Wrist:
    The only enchant for wrists is Greater Assault (50 AP).

    5.3.7 Hands:
    There is one good glove enchant – Crusher (44 AP).

    5.3.8 Leg:
    The best leg enchant is the Icescale Leg armor from Leatherworking.

    5.3.9 Feet:
    For PVE the best enchant is Greater Assault (32 AP).

    5.3.10 Ring (Enchanters only):
    The only ring enchant you will want is Assault (40 AP).

    6.0 Consumables:

    6.1 Food:
    There are 2 foods a Ret should be eating. Either Dragonfin Filet (40 str) or Fish Feast. The Dragonfin Filet will technically provide more AP, but the extra SP on the Fish Feast nearly evens it out. If a Fish Feast is dropped, take it. If there isn't one available, have a stack of Dragonfin Filets handy.

    6.2 Potions and Elixirs:
    For non flasks, Elixir of Mighty Strength is the only elixir worth using.

    For flasks Flask of Endless Rage is the best option.


    7.0 Other Resources:

    For those who want to do further research or get a second opinion, here is a list of a few resources that have been recommended to me (I won't say I have read everything in these sites, nor will I fully endorse them - I merely provide them for a more complete resource for Ret Pallys):

    Elitist Jerks Ret Theorycraft
    This thread has some information and spreadsheets that are mostly theorycraft, but possibly of interest to some.

    RETLOL - The Guide
    A very thorough and indepth guide. Haven't had time to read it all though.

    MAX DPS
    An interesting resource for comparing stats and gear. I find my in game DPS to be higher than what they say for my stats, but it's really not too far off. Also the gear comparison is more interactive than I have time to put together.




    Edited, Oct 5th 2009 1:20pm by toolofjesus

    Edited, Jan 28th 2010 8:11am by toolofjesus

    Edited, Jan 28th 2010 8:11am by toolofjesus

    Edited, Jan 28th 2010 8:12am by toolofjesus
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    #6 Jan 20 2008 at 5:12 PM Rating: Excellent
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    oops

    Edited, Jan 20th 2008 8:20pm by toolofjesus
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    #7 Jan 20 2008 at 9:11 PM Rating: Excellent
    Well I'm very impressed with the guide, and will be rating you up for it. I have a few things I would like to address though.

    Quote:

    This guide is designed for PVE Raiding and Heroics dungeons. For PVP you'll want to talk to some of the other more skilled PVP Rets.


    You might want to change this up if you are going to include leveling. If I am just starting a Paladin and looking at this, I'm going to glance over it and move on.

    Quote:

    Retribution is not only the least popular spec of Paladin


    You should change to least popular end-game spec. It's the most popular leveling spec, and again, this will confuse me if I am just starting a new Paladin.

    Quote:

    Seal of Command:

    ...
    SoC will also benefit from 20% of your spell damage. It takes 49 (25 strength) AP or 43 spell damage to get one dps from SoC.


    SoC benefits 20% from normal spell damage and 29% from holy spell damage (like JotC). So you might want to include that.

    Quote:

    Improved Devotion Aura:
    This ability by itself is rather useless since you will almost never be using this aura. However, it's more useful than extra blocking, so I recommend taking this to get you to the second tier in Prot.


    Honestly, I'd still pick Redoubt over this on the off-chance I need to use a shield for something. The extra defense that you have to sacrifice a ton of dps for really isn't winning any battles, but the extra blocking might.

    Quote:

    Improved Blessing of Might
    The added DPS is minimal, but assuming you're taking the 80% mana back from judgments, this will be more useful than Benediction at end game.


    This I'd like to see some math on or some reasoning. To me, making sure that your mana extends the entire fight should be top priority, and anything that you can get to make sure this happens would be good to grab. For ret AP is a dime a dozen, but good mana regen is hard to come by.


    Quote:

    Improved Judgment:
    I highly recommend getting this talent. If you judge regularly this can be up to 20% more Judgment DPS.


    The only problem I have with this is with your SoC section. There's a bit of a contradiction there where you advise not to constantly judge. If you aren't constantly judging (and you shouldn't) then you don't need this talent. However, It is better to put the 2 points here than in deflection. I can just see the contradiction being a little confusing to a new person reading it.

    Quote:

    Conviction:
    This is an absolute must for any Ret pally. Take it.

    Bold Text
    For Alliance Rets this is mandatory. For BE Rets Seal of Blood deals more damage more consistently, and this is probably not necessary.


    Might want to fix that ^.^ (Seal of Command instead of "Bold Text")

    Quote:

    (1) a peice that is relatively simple to get and preferably not chance based like quested, crafted or BoE world drops, (2) a peice that is still relatively simple to get but may take a little more farming like regular instance drops, Blue Rep items or PVP rewards, and (3) a better peice that is more difficult to get and may take better gear to even be able to farm like a heroic drop, heroic badge item, Epic crafted or epic Reputation item.


    I like what you are doing there, but instead of numbers, I would go a step further and use colors instead. Maybe Green for (1), Yellow for (2) and Red for (3) to indicate the increasing difficulty or awesomeness. It just makes them easier to read and see.

    Quote:

    Trinkets:


    A trinket you might want to add is the Abacus of Violent Odds from Mech. This gives AP and an on-use haste boost which aint bad. (I'm pretty sure PPM is affected by haste rating, giving you more PPM than if you didn't have it.)



    Aside from that, just some formatting nitpicks. Use some colors for your outlining, it makes it easier to show main sections from subsections. Numbering off your sections makes for quick navigation with a table of contents in the beginning (like I did). And link all your gear in alla so I can mouse over it. It's going to be long and tedious but in the end it will make your Ret FAQ that much better.

    But you have a very good start so far.
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    #8 Jan 20 2008 at 9:12 PM Rating: Excellent
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    wow, good job ToJ. i'll read it over when i have an hour to spare :D
    #9 Jan 20 2008 at 11:48 PM Rating: Excellent
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    thankyou capjack. i appreciate the help. i'll address those issues tomorrow when i get a chance. some of the linking may take longer... and tommyguns, i look forward to hearing your advice too when you get your hour to read it ;)
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    #10 Jan 21 2008 at 11:31 AM Rating: Excellent
    Quote:
    (1) Hourglass of the Unraveller
    32 crit
    Use: crits proc 300 AP for 10 seconds
    Black Morass


    This trinket doesnt have a USE, its an equip bonus with a chance proc

    Hourglass of the Unraveller

    Edit: Usefull Seal of Blood VS. Seal of Command info. would be good to either add this info or link to it.

    Edited, Jan 21st 2008 11:47am by RuenBahamut
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    #11 Jan 21 2008 at 12:02 PM Rating: Excellent
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    The RuenBahamut of Doom wrote:
    Quote:
    (1) Hourglass of the Unraveller
    32 crit
    Use: crits proc 300 AP for 10 seconds
    Black Morass


    This trinket doesnt have a USE, its an equip bonus with a chance proc

    Hourglass of the Unraveller

    Edit: Usefull Seal of Blood VS. Seal of Command info. would be good to either add this info or link to it.

    Edited, Jan 21st 2008 11:47am by RuenBahamut


    thankyou for the correction. i'll add that to my list ot things to correct when i get to my computer. actually when i link everything that'll correct item mistakes i made... just gottaf figure out how to make that work. tried and it just showed the tags.... :(

    also, i'll add a section about SoC vs SoB for hordies.
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    #12 Jan 21 2008 at 12:20 PM Rating: Excellent
    Just link it like normal. You don't have to do anything special anymore, alla now displays the tooltip for all alla links. Just find the item in their database, copy the link, and put a URL around the item name in your post and paste it there.
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    #13 Jan 21 2008 at 2:58 PM Rating: Excellent
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    is it just me or should we sticky this?

    Edited, Jan 21st 2008 5:58pm by jediscooter
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    #14 Jan 21 2008 at 2:59 PM Rating: Decent
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    Lawl Ret?
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    #15 Jan 21 2008 at 4:32 PM Rating: Good
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    CapJack of the Seven Seas wrote:
    Well I'm very impressed with the guide, and will be rating you up for it. I have a few things I would like to address though.

    Quote:

    This guide is designed for PVE Raiding and Heroics dungeons. For PVP you'll want to talk to some of the other more skilled PVP Rets.


    You might want to change this up if you are going to include leveling. If I am just starting a Paladin and looking at this, I'm going to glance over it and move on.

    Quote:

    Retribution is not only the least popular spec of Paladin


    You should change to least popular end-game spec. It's the most popular leveling spec, and again, this will confuse me if I am just starting a new Paladin.

    Quote:

    Seal of Command:

    ...
    SoC will also benefit from 20% of your spell damage. It takes 49 (25 strength) AP or 43 spell damage to get one dps from SoC.


    SoC benefits 20% from normal spell damage and 29% from holy spell damage (like JotC). So you might want to include that.

    Quote:

    Improved Devotion Aura:
    This ability by itself is rather useless since you will almost never be using this aura. However, it's more useful than extra blocking, so I recommend taking this to get you to the second tier in Prot.


    Honestly, I'd still pick Redoubt over this on the off-chance I need to use a shield for something. The extra defense that you have to sacrifice a ton of dps for really isn't winning any battles, but the extra blocking might.

    Quote:

    Improved Blessing of Might
    The added DPS is minimal, but assuming you're taking the 80% mana back from judgments, this will be more useful than Benediction at end game.


    This I'd like to see some math on or some reasoning. To me, making sure that your mana extends the entire fight should be top priority, and anything that you can get to make sure this happens would be good to grab. For ret AP is a dime a dozen, but good mana regen is hard to come by.


    Quote:

    Improved Judgment:
    I highly recommend getting this talent. If you judge regularly this can be up to 20% more Judgment DPS.


    The only problem I have with this is with your SoC section. There's a bit of a contradiction there where you advise not to constantly judge. If you aren't constantly judging (and you shouldn't) then you don't need this talent. However, It is better to put the 2 points here than in deflection. I can just see the contradiction being a little confusing to a new person reading it.

    Quote:

    Conviction:
    This is an absolute must for any Ret pally. Take it.

    Bold Text
    For Alliance Rets this is mandatory. For BE Rets Seal of Blood deals more damage more consistently, and this is probably not necessary.


    Might want to fix that ^.^ (Seal of Command instead of "Bold Text")


    ok, these are addressed. if you want to check what i did and make sure it makes sense i'd appreciate it. the rest of these i need to be at my computer for

    oh, and um, you're right. Benediction is better than Improved BoM. i had seen someone else post some "math" showing that benediction was pointless after sanctified judgements. double checked with my own math and found that benediction is half as worthwhile after sanc judge, which is still more valuable than the 6 dps Improved bom gives.
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    #16 Jan 21 2008 at 5:23 PM Rating: Excellent
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    good work ToJ. i'll bullet off some ideas for you and you can word em like you have been:

    -Add Intro. What should a Ret do in raids(dps, switch to healer, OT certain stuff, selfcleanse, etc). Why bring a Ret. How buffs affect raid.
    -add to JoC: stun factor and range. may be spammed in pvp for max dmg
    -add to CS: judgement refresh
    -add to Exorcism: range
    -add to HoW: range. also i use HoW in my rotation when avab(esp on bosses), .5s is almost instant and can be used when CS and auto are on cd. HoW -> CS -> auto/SoC -> JoC = deadly combo
    -add to Concecration: lvl 1 for pvp stealth
    -in Holy: change "PVE Ret" to "dps Ret". pts in Holy can be used to create a viable off-healer
    -in Prot: pts can be used toward Kings and imp HoJ
    -add Repentence: benefits JoC and stops casts
    -add Imp Judgement: generally more dps for pvp
    -add Divine Purpose: great for strict pvp build
    -add weapon: Thunder+ best pre/post Kara weap
    -mention Season 3 set, best pre/post Kara and starting 25mans

    thats all i got for now. look forward to seeing the final sticky.
    #17 Jan 22 2008 at 12:38 AM Rating: Good
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    I know race tends not to make much difference at high levels, but you might want to mention something about race. For example, I'm not sure (because I'm not big into theorycrafting) about whether I'd be better off with the 1% hit from draenei, or the 5 expertise from human. Some mention of such things might be nice.
    #18 Jan 22 2008 at 7:15 AM Rating: Good
    I like the changes so far, maybe on all the gear pieces you can add a brief description on where to get the item like:

    "Caverns of Time - Revered Rep Reward"
    "Tempest Keep: The Mechanar - Patheon the Calculator (20%)"

    As for the ring, you do need to raid to get that ring. You need to get "Scale of the Sands" rep which you can only get after beating both Kael and Vashj.

    Also, Crimsonforge Breastplate links to "Bulwark of Ancient Kings", all your other links are fine though.

    The colors are nice, they seem a little drab. Maybe try getting a brighter hue in. Just sayin, if you're gonna make colors try to make them pretty. There's many of color options up there.
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    #19 Jan 23 2008 at 8:30 AM Rating: Decent
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    Nice guide, good job
    #20 Jan 24 2008 at 12:11 PM Rating: Excellent
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    ok, made some updates

    - added Abacus of Violent Odds
    - Numbered sections and added Table of Contents
    - Linked all Items
    - corrected Hourglass of the Unraveller.... by linking it
    - Linked to SoC vs SoB comparison (might do my own math comparison eventually)
    - updated JoC section about stun factor, range and PVP use
    - updated CS section including Judgement refresh
    - updated Exorcism range
    - Updated Hammer of Wrath to give range and tip to use when available
    - Updated Consecration to us rank 1 for stealth detection in PVP
    - updated Holy section DPS vs OH rather than PVP vs PVE
    - updated Prot section about getting BoK and Improved HOJ
    - updated Repentance including benefit to JoC and spell cast interrupting
    - updated Improved Judgement adding PVP note
    - updated Divine Purpose adding PVP note
    - Added Thunder and Deep Thunder
    - Added Breastplate of Kings and Bulwark of Kings
    - Removed Bulwark of the Ancient Kings because it requires Nether Vortex from SSC, Hyjal or TK
    - Added note about S3 gear
    - updated gear list to include where gear drops or what quest it is a reward from including location of quest giver
    - corrected Crimsonforged Breastplate link
    - brightened colors


    still on the list is:
    - comparison of races
    - colors for outlining
    - into about rets place in raids

    any further suggestions would be very welcome
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    #21 Jan 24 2008 at 12:29 PM Rating: Excellent
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    Some info on Apexis Cleaver and Badge of Tenacity:

    These are created by combining either the Depleted Two-Hand Axe or Depleted Badge with 50 Apexis Shards. Both Depleted Two-Hand Axe or Depleted Badge are random zone drops only found in Blade's Edge Mountains.



    Spelling > me



    Edited, Jan 24th 2008 2:50pm by Jornam
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    #22 Jan 24 2008 at 1:13 PM Rating: Good
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    Jornam wrote:
    Some info on Apexis Cleaver and Badge of Tenacity:

    These are created by combining either the Depleted Two-Hand Axe or Depleted Badge with 50 Apexis Shards. Both Depleted Two-Hand Axe or Depleted Badge are random zone drops only found in Blade's Edge Mountains.


    ok, thankyou jornam, much appreciated. i'll add that info to the guide


    edit: ok, that's been updated. thankyou very much



    Edited, Jan 24th 2008 5:00pm by toolofjesus
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    #23 Jan 25 2008 at 8:32 AM Rating: Excellent
    I'm thinkin this is startin' to look like sticky material, we should probably start with the begging soon. There's just a couple more things I'd like to add(more formatting tips really).

    1st, you can't link to different sections of the post in the Table of Contents. I've tried that and you just can't do it. You're just going to have to rely on someone to ctrl+f and type in the section code.

    2nd, I like the new colors for green and blue.. the red still seems too dark. I would recommend a red like this which is Tomato in the colors. I like things to jump out at me as I look at them, and the darker red looks like it's trying to hide behind the gray in the box.

    Ugh, I feel like this is "***** Eye for the Ret Guy", anyway continuing with my ramblings....

    For added sparkle-ness you can change the gem color headings to the color of the gems. (Remember, with bright colors... bright!)

    Also.... considering the melee nature of Ret and your military background, I think it might be cool to have fatigue-like colors for your sections... maybe something like....

    Quote:

    4.0 Talents:
    While I won't tell you 100% how to spec your char I will go through my recommendations for PVE. For a PVP spec there are others much more knowledgeable than myself.

    4.1 Holy:

    Divine Strength:
    Since a Ret pally gets most benefit from abilities that increase weapon damage, this ability will make every point of strength you get worth more. With the right gear (i.e. strength rather than AP gear) this ability will boost your DPS quite a bit.

    Divine Intellect:
    While it’s true that most of our DPS comes from abilities that use mana, this is usually a waste of talent points. Our Int is typically too low for 10% to make much difference. These are 5 points better used elsewhere.

    Anything else in Holy is a waste of talent points for a DPS Ret. Additional points can be spent in Holy to create an off-heal build. This may be useful in PVP and possibly some instance groups, but a Ret OH will not be very good at healing or DPS and won't be wanted in most PVE groups. In PVP the flexibility this offers can make the difference between winning and losing.


    Which are Olivedrab, Sienna, and Darkkhaki respectively.

    Anyway.... sorry if I seem like I'm going crazy with the colors, part of my real job is designing graphic user interfaces, so I try to think of ways to make things as user-friendly as possible.



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    #24 Jan 25 2008 at 8:55 AM Rating: Decent
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    "***** Eye for the Ret Guy"

    haha...does that make you a **** pirate?
    #25 Jan 25 2008 at 8:59 AM Rating: Excellent
    I guess for all intents and purposes of this conversation and which applies nowhere else either explicitly or implicitly.... yes.
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    85 BE Paladin (Unholyrose, Bonechewer)
    #26 Jan 25 2008 at 9:41 AM Rating: Decent
    Testing.

    4.0 Talents

    5.0 Gear List

    5.2 Gems

    you can link to the Replies. the only way i know how to however is to use the search forums feature and copy and paste the link for every search result that pointed to a reply you want to link too.

    Edited, Jan 25th 2008 9:43am by RuenBahamut
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    #27 Jan 25 2008 at 10:21 AM Rating: Good
    I meant in the same window, yeah those work, it just opens a new window whenever I click them, which is annoying, at least on my browser.
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    #28 Jan 25 2008 at 11:46 AM Rating: Decent
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    CapJack of the Seven Seas wrote:
    I guess for all intents and purposes of this conversation and which applies nowhere else either explicitly or implicitly.... yes.


    lol...nice response
    #29 Jan 25 2008 at 12:38 PM Rating: Decent
    With reference to the preface: I don't think that people really consider retribution a 'bad' talent build (ok many do, but that's because it's the public meme), but because there's so many DPS already, and a lack of tanks, and less so, a lack of healers, that if PLD can do those two things, it's more beneficial than yet another DPS. In my horde guild, warlocks and hunters are quitting right and left because they never get to do anything, there's always an abundance of DPS... hence me leveling PLD right now :P

    This is not to say that people should go something else, do whatever you find fun, I'm just reporting on what observed reactions have been


    Nice guide by the way, very in depth. It all seems to make sense, not that I know a ton about ret paladins :P

    Edited, Jan 25th 2008 12:43pm by digitalcraft
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    #30 Jan 25 2008 at 8:22 PM Rating: Good
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    digitalcraft, Goblin in Disguise wrote:
    With reference to the preface: I don't think that people really consider retribution a 'bad' talent build (ok many do, but that's because it's the public meme), but because there's so many DPS already, and a lack of tanks, and less so, a lack of healers, that if PLD can do those two things, it's more beneficial than yet another DPS. In my horde guild, warlocks and hunters are quitting right and left because they never get to do anything, there's always an abundance of DPS... hence me leveling PLD right now :P

    This is not to say that people should go something else, do whatever you find fun, I'm just reporting on what observed reactions have been


    Nice guide by the way, very in depth. It all seems to make sense, not that I know a ton about ret paladins :P

    Edited, Jan 25th 2008 12:43pm by digitalcraft


    yeah, my point isn't that everyone hates ret, just that at end game, most people still believe that ret can't cut it. this is changing, but slowly.

    you are right about the abundance of dps, and for that, i'd recommend a smaller more friendly guild. otherwise, it may take a bit of time to prove yourself.

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    #31 Jan 26 2008 at 6:42 AM Rating: Excellent
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    so how do we sticky this? Gets my vote (if it matters)
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    #32 Jan 26 2008 at 7:51 AM Rating: Decent
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    I will have to come back with the rote response. Ret fails end game PvE. Even after the changes to threat, even with utility considered, it is no bueno.

    Rpzip covered it, and he is a pretty fair guy. Even in BT/Hyjal gear ret is still pulling down ho hum dps, and its utility is not good enough to be missed.

    **** we tried it. We truly tried it. We had a Holy pally who had rolled together a Ret set all t5 or s3 equivalents. We let him roll ret. He was middle of the pack and gettin out damaged by guys in much ******** gear. We allowed him to switch his hunter in as main and he does more dps now and the utility is really not missed.

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    #33 Jan 27 2008 at 2:23 PM Rating: Excellent
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    class effectiveness is situational. for instance, in Kara i will dps Attumen, OT/dps Moroes and co., heal Maiden, depends on opera, OT flares/dps Curator, dps Shade, OT imps/dps Illhoof, dps Netherspite and switch to mage for Prince.

    #34 Jan 27 2008 at 3:09 PM Rating: Default
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    In a 25 man not so much.

    In fact, not at all.
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    #35 Jan 27 2008 at 3:35 PM Rating: Good
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    Retribution is better than Holy and Protection if you want to kill the bunnies outside Stormwind.

    It's a FACT!
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    #36 Jan 27 2008 at 6:40 PM Rating: Excellent
    bodhisattva wrote:
    In a 25 man not so much.

    In fact, not at all.


    Good thing this is a pre-kara/heroics guide.
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    #37 Jan 27 2008 at 6:50 PM Rating: Decent
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    CapJack of the Seven Seas wrote:
    bodhisattva wrote:
    In a 25 man not so much.

    In fact, not at all.


    Good thing this is a pre-kara/heroics guide.


    Fine we will ignore the elephant in the room and only focus on the first very basic and uncomplicated steps end game wow.

    /blinders on
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    #38 Jan 27 2008 at 6:58 PM Rating: Excellent
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    Mazra wrote:
    Retribution is better than Holy and Protection if you want to kill the bunnies outside Stormwind.

    It's a FACT!


    Prot and Holy can kill said bunny from the safety of range, so I disagree here :P

    That aside: nice guide ToJ. With all the "lawl ret" and other ret hate on this forum, it's not surprising to see some of the posts in this thread, but it is sad and shouldn't be in this thread. When someone wants to know if Ret is viable at a certain point in the game or wants to compare Ret DPS to another class, go ahead and "lawl" it all you want. ****, I've done it too. But if someone chooses to be Ret, regardless of its fallacies, then imo people should leave them be and/or offer real advice (this thread). You don't have to group/raid with said person, so what's it matter how they choose to spend their $15 a month?

    /mini-rant off
    #39 Jan 27 2008 at 7:54 PM Rating: Excellent
    Quote:
    Fine we will ignore the elephant in the room and only focus on the first very basic and uncomplicated steps end game wow.

    /blinders on


    Didn't see you say that for Dil's guide.



    Edited, Jan 27th 2008 7:55pm by CapJack
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    #40 Jan 27 2008 at 10:01 PM Rating: Excellent
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    a) playing ret and prot well takes more skill than holy
    b) most players are not in 25mans
    c) by 25mans, why would u need a guide?
    d) F the bunnies, i want the whole cow: http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh141/tommy0guns/WoWScrnShot_090307_201127.jpg
    #41 Jan 27 2008 at 10:11 PM Rating: Decent
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    Quote:
    Didn't see you say that for Dil's guide.


    Dilbrt didn't make any wildly inaccurate statements based on things he had not yet experienced in game.

    Also Ret has never been a build that requires skill. In fact it is mindnumbling easy. I almost find it offensive when people with less than 1900 arena ratings, and who have never made it past Lurker talk about 'being skilled ret players'. 5% is smaller than you think, and you are more than not likely a part of it. Those 5% are people who could squeeze dps out of a Resto druid if they tried. The very fact that there are those 5% speaks more loudly for the epic level of fail that Ret is than its potential.

    As for 25 mans, there are raiders in full t5 epics in some guilds who still do not have a clear idea of where they are wanting to take their stats, how there stats and objectives will change from t4 to t5 go t5, talent builds and beyond. To say it is as easy as "spec this way and focus on this" shows a huge ignorance of end game. As a Holy Pally alone you find the shift to +heal, then +crit/mp5 and finally looking at spell haste in t6 and beyond. It is not just more of the same. End game is deeper than that.
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    #42 Jan 28 2008 at 7:30 AM Rating: Excellent
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    to be honest, bodh, i know you don't like my guide, that's fine. I didn't expect everyone to like it. But it's not for you, since you don't need to learn how to play ret if you don't want to.

    bodhisattva wrote:
    Quote:
    Didn't see you say that for Dil's guide.


    Dilbrt didn't make any wildly inaccurate statements based on things he had not yet experienced in game.


    i realize there are things i haven't experienced yet in game. however, i wrote the guide based on what i've actually done, seen myself, or in some places learned from the more experienced rets like tommyguns. I did not intend to make any "wildly inaccurate statements" and all you've done is a more elaborate lawlret. If I made any claims that are not true, or gave advice in my guide that you think is wrong, please let me know so i can edit the guide to be accurate.

    bodhisattva wrote:
    Also Ret has never been a build that requires skill. In fact it is mindnumbling easy.


    playing ret is easy. playing ret well is not. gearing ret well with the lack of good gear blizzard has given for ret is even less easy. i've seen many a ret with sub-par performance, usually because they try to gear like blizzard would have them gear or they just don't understand the class. I've also seen 2 on my server (besides myself) that have topped dps charts in heroics. haven't seen one in the couple kara runs i've attempted on my holy pally. to get maximum use out of ret you need skill. not just for dps, but to know when to heal, cleanse, bubble, LoH, DI, BoF, which judgement to use when, etc. it's not as easy as holy.

    bodhisattva wrote:
    I almost find it offensive when people with less than 1900 arena ratings, and who have never made it past Lurker talk about 'being skilled ret players'. 5% is smaller than you think, and you are more than not likely a part of it.


    just a note.... i don't really think i've ever claimed to be a skilled player. definitely not in the 5%. i just am a good ovserver and a decent ret. those in combination are what i've written my guide based on. Any time i refer to skilled players i typically refer to tommyguns who is far superior to me in ret skill. so telling me i'm not in the 5% isn't telling me anything i don't know. i'm working on it and still learning how to play my ret better. till then, helpful advice would be nice.
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    #43 Jan 28 2008 at 7:45 AM Rating: Excellent
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    Here are some nice resources that you may want to mention.

    [Paladin] Retribution DPS Theorycraft
    RETLOL - The Guide
    I was surprised too


    Edited, Jan 28th 2008 10:46am by chood
    #44 Jan 28 2008 at 1:03 PM Rating: Excellent
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    A very well written and in depth guide.

    Thank you.
    #45 Jan 28 2008 at 1:30 PM Rating: Excellent
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    bodhisattva wrote:
    Also Ret has never been a build that requires skill. In fact it is mindnumbling easy.


    playing ret is easy. playing ret well is not. gearing ret well with the lack of good gear blizzard has given for ret is even less easy. i've seen many a ret with sub-par performance, usually because they try to gear like blizzard would have them gear or they just don't understand the class. I've also seen 2 on my server (besides myself) that have topped dps charts in heroics. haven't seen one in the couple kara runs i've attempted on my holy pally. to get maximum use out of ret you need skill. not just for dps, but to know when to heal, cleanse, bubble, LoH, DI, BoF, which judgement to use when, etc. it's not as easy as holy. [/quote]

    Not that any part of this game is incredibly complicated, but playing whack-a-mole with healing is usually harder (or at least different) than a standard DPS class. The difference is that (melee DPS t least) needs to react to a lot more situational stuff than casters of any type typically do, so it balances out.

    Except for Warlocks. Stupid Warlocks.

    With that said, am I missing anything especially complicated about DPSing as a Retadin? Judge and refresh Seals after a melee swing so you don't lose DPS (as opposed to doing it just before a swing and not having Seal up). Crusader Strike when it's off cooldown. Wash, rinse and repeat?

    Playing a Retadin well, beyond some simple fixes (see: swing timer) seems to be mostly about gearing well. If Enhancement Shaman didn't have Totem Twisting they'd be in much the same situation; they're both largely non-interactive DPS classes.

    As to your guide in general... it's nice, but you're using too many generalities (which may be all you have, in which case there's not much to do). If you're looking at a piece of gear, how much STR is worth how much Crit? If you can trade 3 Crit for 4 STR, should you? Vice versa? What about 2 STR for 5 +DMG? 3 Hit versus 3 STR? 2 HIT versus 3 STR?

    I can rattle off the stats for Fury Warriors off the top of my head. Assuming BoK and after you've hit the special hit cap (142 Hit - 15.75 * Points into Precision), the approximation is;

    1 STR ~= 2.2 AP ~= 1.05 Crit ~= 6.5 Armor Penetration ~= 1.25 Haste ~= 1.45 AGI ~= 1.66 Hit

    Don't suppose you have anything like that? Or an approximation? I know you're trying to outline the basics but hard formulas like that are incredibly useful guidelines if you can calculate them (accuracy is important, for obvious reasons).
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    #46 Jan 28 2008 at 2:48 PM Rating: Excellent
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    RPZip wrote:
    With that said, am I missing anything especially complicated about DPSing as a Retadin? Judge and refresh Seals after a melee swing so you don't lose DPS (as opposed to doing it just before a swing and not having Seal up). Crusader Strike when it's off cooldown. Wash, rinse and repeat?

    Playing a Retadin well, beyond some simple fixes (see: swing timer) seems to be mostly about gearing well.


    gearing well is the first difficulty in outlands especially now during the transition from spell damage to melee stats untill they redesign ret gear (if they ever do).

    beyond that, i suppose you're right to a certain degree about dps'ing. if all i care about is my dps and not the groups success then, yes, SoC, CS and JoC timed right is 90% of what you need. if
    i care about overall success then i'm going to be watching for when i need to cleanse, heal, BoP, BoF, pull aggro off the healer/clothies, etc. it may not be watching as much as a tank has to, but its not as easy as SoC, CS, JoC rinse and repeat.
    RPZip wrote:
    As to your guide in general... it's nice, but you're using too many generalities (which may be all you have, in which case there's not much to do). If you're looking at a piece of gear, how much STR is worth how much Crit? If you can trade 3 Crit for 4 STR, should you? Vice versa? What about 2 STR for 5 +DMG? 3 Hit versus 3 STR? 2 HIT versus 3 STR?

    I can rattle off the stats for Fury Warriors off the top of my head. Assuming BoK and after you've hit the special hit cap (142 Hit - 15.75 * Points into Precision), the approximation is;

    1 STR ~= 2.2 AP ~= 1.05 Crit ~= 6.5 Armor Penetration ~= 1.25 Haste ~= 1.45 AGI ~= 1.66 Hit

    Don't suppose you have anything like that? Or an approximation? I know you're trying to outline the basics but hard formulas like that are incredibly useful guidelines if you can calculate them (accuracy is important, for obvious reasons).


    this is the kind of constructive criticism i need. i'll work on adding this soon. thankyou.
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    #47 Jan 28 2008 at 3:12 PM Rating: Excellent
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    I made a post once about the difference between Lawl Ret and Good Ret. It is half a second.

    Simple as that, as terribly complicated as that. Keyboard turners, that guy spending that half second clicking his hotbar to use BOF instead of having an already assigned mouse click or assigned key. Any idiot can cleanse, a good ret pally can cleanse a teammate while staying on top of a mage doing everything possible to slow him down.

    A lot of Ret like to claim they are at that level, but they are really just 0.5 seconds behind.
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    #48 Jan 28 2008 at 9:23 PM Rating: Excellent
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    Quote:
    With that said, am I missing anything especially complicated about DPSing as a Retadin? Judge and refresh Seals after a melee swing so you don't lose DPS (as opposed to doing it just before a swing and not having Seal up). Crusader Strike when it's off cooldown. Wash, rinse and repeat?


    in pve its pretty basic stuff, as with every dps spec.
    my mage does 700dps with ice flows + frostbolt x 20 + ice flows + frostbolt x 20.
    my pally gets the same results with JotC + SoC/auto + CS. depending on where i am i might mix in some JoC, consecrates, exorcisms, AW, holy wrath, HoJ, HoW, repentence, and cleanse for some more punch(all of which can be added to the rotation without hindering normal dps rotation, whereas a mage must break rotation to cast something extra)

    but yeah, pally does take more skill than mage. now if the output could match the input we'd be rollin. here's hoping.
    #49 Jan 29 2008 at 10:25 AM Rating: Decent
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    Retridins can do DPS, seriously can I? I've been going through some damagemeters reports of a pally guildmate who had done about 620k ( i dont know if this was the exact amount of damage done, but i know he did the most damage) damage at the end of his heroic and thus topping everyone in the party.

    here's his armory profile: http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Nordrassil&n=Rhythm

    So i was wondering how he managed to do that amount of damage, he responded to me with the usual equipment and skill set-up talk. When i still was ret i never did this kind of significant damage, though my gear was similar to the gear discribed in this faq, lots of strength, ap and crit( i had about 900 ap buffed 17% crit).
    Any ideas of what i might have been doing wrong?

    ,Zignaestos

    note: i'm holy now but i will respec to Retribution later to do Arena's with my friend.
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    #50 Jan 30 2008 at 2:28 PM Rating: Excellent
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    Glad you are working on this guide, looking good so far!

    You may want to consider adding the in-game tool tip text to the Talents section. Even as a pally myself, I didn't know what some of those talents did without looking them up. Your summary of whether to get them or not is good, but as a complete reference, it would be nice to know what they do, as opposed to just "Useful in PvP, not in PvE". I dunno, gives a bigger picture as to what is important, and why?

    Also, the TOC feels a bit long. Looks like you have some spacing issues separating the groupings.

    Maybe I missed it, but it seems like you left out the importance of tossing a cleanse or a heal when needed in the "1.3 What does a Ret Pally bring to a group?: " section (which is not in the TOC at all).
    #51 Feb 01 2008 at 12:29 PM Rating: Excellent
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    sorry about leaving this incomplete so long. woke up tue moning and was told we had 30 mins to get ready to go to the field... i'm back though. prolly spend my free time this evening playing WoW, but i'll try to correct some of those issues either tonight or tomorow
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