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+spell hit. Plz explainFollow

#1 Apr 26 2007 at 2:33 PM Rating: Decent
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so got a qst reward from nagrand today. A belt that had just a little bit better stats than the one I was wearing with the exception of crit. The one I have is something like 14 crit rate wich is around .5 crit. The new one this crit rate was replaced by something like 10 spell hit rate. What is this worth. On average my spells dont seem to miss a target much so what does this do for me and how important is it say compared to crit? Please school away on this one for me so that I can go home and teach the rest of my guild which had the same answer "IDK prolly so you dont miss" or Is that it and I am just over-thinking this?
#2 Apr 26 2007 at 3:56 PM Rating: Decent
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It's exactly as we were saying be4 on another post named "Arcane subtlety".

spells have a chance to miss and a chance to be resisted.In both situations a "resisted" will come up.+hit and +penetration lower that chance.+hit for miss and penetration for resist.

You should want about 5%-7% +hit imo if u r goin PVE(but u can do without it too).Raiding and PVP is more complicated though.a combination of 5%-7%+hit and 30-40 penetration is a must for many bosses.Keep in mind that penetration will lower ONLY the chance of a spell being partially or fully resisted by your targets resistances.If your target has no resistances it has no effects.

so about +hit or +crit for spells:they r both good imo cause (if warrior forum is correct) +crit will also lower the chance of a spell being "missed".

If some1 knows better about the last plz post here.
#3 Apr 26 2007 at 4:17 PM Rating: Decent
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93 posts
So I cant re-call any of my spells ever saying "MISS" like when I'm on my hunter and a arrow will truly "MISS" the target. If I am getting you right then "miss" in the case of the mage is similar to a target resisting partial to full damage and not my spell not hitting the target?
#4 Apr 26 2007 at 4:22 PM Rating: Decent
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81 posts
Maybe Blizzard is too lazy for a change so yes:miss on a spell means full resist of the damage but sometimes resist is just....resist.so u may need some penetration along with ur +hit.

i hope i cleared it out.:)
#5 Apr 26 2007 at 4:50 PM Rating: Decent
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93 posts
Yes you did. TYVM this is the kind of answer I was looking for. The mage forums are a lot more informative then the warrior forums that I used to frequent. To all of you that post good solid answers on these forums I thank you.
#6 Apr 26 2007 at 5:22 PM Rating: Decent
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794 posts
I will give a bit more clarity to this topic.

spell penetration and spell hit (or less chance to resist) are different and applies to the combat system used by DD(direct damage) spells.

To illustrate I will run through what should be conceptually the combat system.

you cast fireball (rank 10) on target.
fireball launches
system rolls your hit result. Its kinda like DnD here, its the hit check. you fail means you whiff, end of story. To this end, only +hit will prevent you from rolling the miss roll.
lets assume here that you have passed your hit check. It gets a little hazy here.
System rolls for crit. This is affected by crit rating. Crit rating is in turn negated by resiliance. Resiliance will in the first place cause you to crit target less often, at the same time also reduce damage taken when critted.
Assuming that you have not rolled a crit....
the system will roll the resist roll for the target.
Now there are 2 kinds of spells in WoW, esp for mages. Binary and non-binary spells. Binary is typically our frost spells, if the target passes their resist check then the spell will totally dodged. Fire, shadow and arcane on the other hand is not affected by this. Typically, target can roll a partial resist or total resist for fire,shadow and arcane spells. +spell penetration will come in at this point and cause both total resist and partial resists to occur less often, it also factors in for damage calculation reducing the amount of damage negated when target rolls a partial resist.
#7 Apr 26 2007 at 5:34 PM Rating: Decent
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93 posts
Good clarification. Now that I understand the "what" I now ask the "how much". It sounds as though not missing my target is very, very good. Is it going to be more benificail to have less chance to miss at the cost of losing crit%? Or should I go for the crit% #'s and just chock up penetration and +hit as extra's as they come. Lvl 67 (ok ok 66 but 1 more bubble to go) and am going to stop at 69 for the hw set. With those plans, any suggestions on the crit, hit, penetration #'s that I should try for? Or does is it not even worth losing sleep over?
#8 Apr 26 2007 at 7:45 PM Rating: Decent
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2,029 posts
Against your own level, there is a 4% base miss chance based on level. This goes to 5% at +1, 6% at +2, and 17% at +3 (for PvE - +3 is 12% in PvP). Especially if you intend to raid, getting your resist rate down to 1% is excellent, though I don't know how many other stats mages usually give up (i.e, do they usually stop at 5% base chance or 2%?). Outside of raids, 3% (afaik) is about all you need.

With 12.6 +hit equaling 1%, you need as much as 201 hit rating against raid bosses, though talents like Elemental Precision and Arcane Focus help.

EDIT: Also, I may be mistaken, but I think almost any resistances that bosses have are almost entirely negated by Curse of Shadows/Curse of Elements. Provided they're up, I don't think you'll need spell penetration.

Edited, Apr 26th 2007 10:47pm by lsfreak
#9 Apr 26 2007 at 10:08 PM Rating: Good
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lsfreak wrote:
Against your own level, there is a 4% base miss chance based on level.


Indeed. If all you fight is equal level mobs, the talent Elemental Precision will completely +hit cap you. As you're leveling, you will need a bit more if you fight things higher level(I know I did).

It is definitely a good idea to reach the +hit cap when raiding. Nothing is more annoying than not doing damage on that hit.

lsfreak wrote:
EDIT: Also, I may be mistaken, but I think almost any resistances that bosses have are almost entirely negated by Curse of Shadows/Curse of Elements. Provided they're up, I don't think you'll need spell penetration.


Bolded the important parts. If you're raiding without a warlock(not uncommon in Kara), then a bit certainly won't hurt you. If you're raiding with a warlock, picking up a little here and there can't hurt, but I wouldn't worry about it too much.

My rule of thumb is to have both Arcane Subtlety and a Spell Penetration enchant to your cloak(not like you have many other caster choices there). Then you won't be gimping other stats, but will have enough to get by.
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