Ok, so I made a rogue and after spending a mere 10 minutes looking at the subteltry tree, I have fallen in love with it. However, I realize that this tree is most likely not the most efficient leveling build. I am eventually going to go with Nooblestick's ZOMG one shot build, but would it be possible to go with this build as a leveling build as well, or would it be horribly in inefficient? Let me know what you experienced rouges think.
Thanks alot!
Jemac
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I leveled to 39 full subtelty fairly quick and still like it, just put 2 points in remorseless attacks and your ambush has 40%+45%+your crit%. In my case crit is allways around 12% so Ambush crits 97%. This makes grinding pretty fast.
Ghostly strike is good as a follow up because you miss the 2 points in SS. It also reduces downtime as you dogde a lot more for 8 secs, which should be enough time to finish a mob.
I also never bothered getting myself a good sword, I just used daggers all the way.
At 23 Meteor Strike
At 27 Toxic Revenger and Claw of the Shadowmancer
At 34 The Ziggler
And waiting on me to turn 40 Gutripper.
Sure, your instant strikes dont hurt as much as with a sword, but it is still really good dps. After a crit ambush for 2 cp's and 1 GS you can eviscerate for 3 cp's or wait for a SS or gouge and then Evis.
You also get all the goodies like Imp Sap, quicker Vanish, Initiative and Camo.
Subtlety isn't the average leveling build, but it sure is a fun one till now and I plan to stick with it for many levels to come. Enjoy
Ghostly strike is good as a follow up because you miss the 2 points in SS. It also reduces downtime as you dogde a lot more for 8 secs, which should be enough time to finish a mob.
I also never bothered getting myself a good sword, I just used daggers all the way.
At 23 Meteor Strike
At 27 Toxic Revenger and Claw of the Shadowmancer
At 34 The Ziggler
And waiting on me to turn 40 Gutripper.
Sure, your instant strikes dont hurt as much as with a sword, but it is still really good dps. After a crit ambush for 2 cp's and 1 GS you can eviscerate for 3 cp's or wait for a SS or gouge and then Evis.
You also get all the goodies like Imp Sap, quicker Vanish, Initiative and Camo.
Subtlety isn't the average leveling build, but it sure is a fun one till now and I plan to stick with it for many levels to come. Enjoy
What can i say... u cant backstab a mob 2! ofc u can use gouge but it cost 40+60energy, while 2x SS cost only 80energy, btw, u will LOVE blade flurry !!! go for combat tree if u want FAST and EASY lvl up
Who needs BS? Just Crit Ambush, then GS, then SS or Gouge (optional), then eviscerate. Costs: 60+40+45(optional)+35=180. This takes you 8 secs max. Less if you hit ambush right before the next tick. Sure Combat swords is freaking fast, but Sub-Daggers can also crank out the damage fast. Its just a matter of personal preference.
While levelling up my rogue alt I just planned ahead and alternated between two builds, first 7-8 lvls of each 10 lvl bracket id be combat swords for grinding then id switch to pvp dagger build (putting decent daggers aside ahead of time) for the last level or two and do some pvp for a break, after going back to grind reverting back to combat sword build again.
I found this to be pretty fun and varied the levelling up a bit, ofc this is only really viable if you arent in a huge hurry to level up if it's your main char.
lvl 54 at the moment and combat swords again, I'll probably decide on a final build when i ding 69/70
I found this to be pretty fun and varied the levelling up a bit, ofc this is only really viable if you arent in a huge hurry to level up if it's your main char.
lvl 54 at the moment and combat swords again, I'll probably decide on a final build when i ding 69/70
To answer the initial post: NO, it's not impossible and NO, it's not horribly inefficient to go sub.
I'm doing it right now (currently 57) and I'm doing just fine. I can be of great help to a group (or duet) but I can also solo very well (just stick to chaining greens and it's fantastic).
My advice to you is NOT to stick to sub 100%. I have 2 points in Improved Sinister Strike and I find it useful. Most importantly, I have quite a few points in Assassination: 3 x Improved Eviscerate (most often used finish, thus the use of the improvement), 3 x Ruthlessness (you need to generate CPs), 1 x Relentless Strikess (you need to generate energy if possible). I also have 3 x Improved Backstab (BS) because I like to have the choice between BS and Cheap Shot (CS), but that's optionnal.
As for the sub tree, make sure you don't miss 3 x Initiative. I also have 3 x Setup but that's maybe not quite as vital.
With your sub build, you will have FUN. That's the key.
Enjoy yourself,
nostra
I'm doing it right now (currently 57) and I'm doing just fine. I can be of great help to a group (or duet) but I can also solo very well (just stick to chaining greens and it's fantastic).
My advice to you is NOT to stick to sub 100%. I have 2 points in Improved Sinister Strike and I find it useful. Most importantly, I have quite a few points in Assassination: 3 x Improved Eviscerate (most often used finish, thus the use of the improvement), 3 x Ruthlessness (you need to generate CPs), 1 x Relentless Strikess (you need to generate energy if possible). I also have 3 x Improved Backstab (BS) because I like to have the choice between BS and Cheap Shot (CS), but that's optionnal.
As for the sub tree, make sure you don't miss 3 x Initiative. I also have 3 x Setup but that's maybe not quite as vital.
With your sub build, you will have FUN. That's the key.
Enjoy yourself,
nostra
Quote:
I found this to be pretty fun and varied the levelling up a bit, ofc this is only really viable if you arent in a huge hurry to level up if it's your main char.
And if u have enough money ;x
nostraaa wrote:
To answer the initial post: NO, it's not impossible and NO, it's not horribly inefficient to go sub.
I'm doing it right now (currently 57) and I'm doing just fine. I can be of great help to a group (or duet) but I can also solo very well (just stick to chaining greens and it's fantastic).
My advice to you is NOT to stick to sub 100%. I have 2 points in Improved Sinister Strike and I find it useful. Most importantly, I have quite a few points in Assassination: 3 x Improved Eviscerate (most often used finish, thus the use of the improvement), 3 x Ruthlessness (you need to generate CPs), 1 x Relentless Strikess (you need to generate energy if possible). I also have 3 x Improved Backstab (BS) because I like to have the choice between BS and Cheap Shot (CS), but that's optionnal.
As for the sub tree, make sure you don't miss 3 x Initiative. I also have 3 x Setup but that's maybe not quite as vital.
With your sub build, you will have FUN. That's the key.
Enjoy yourself,
nostra
I'm doing it right now (currently 57) and I'm doing just fine. I can be of great help to a group (or duet) but I can also solo very well (just stick to chaining greens and it's fantastic).
My advice to you is NOT to stick to sub 100%. I have 2 points in Improved Sinister Strike and I find it useful. Most importantly, I have quite a few points in Assassination: 3 x Improved Eviscerate (most often used finish, thus the use of the improvement), 3 x Ruthlessness (you need to generate CPs), 1 x Relentless Strikess (you need to generate energy if possible). I also have 3 x Improved Backstab (BS) because I like to have the choice between BS and Cheap Shot (CS), but that's optionnal.
As for the sub tree, make sure you don't miss 3 x Initiative. I also have 3 x Setup but that's maybe not quite as vital.
With your sub build, you will have FUN. That's the key.
Enjoy yourself,
nostra
Shouldn't you be using Ambush if not CS >.>
Norellicus wrote:
Shouldn't you be using Ambush if not CS >.>
You're right, it's a translation mistake on my part (I use a French version of the game). I start fights either with Cheap Shot (tough mobs) or Ambush, not Backstab (mobs that die fast, especially green mages).
Backstab is what I use since I don't have Mutilate ;)
nostra
Nostraaa, I am afraid you are going to get flamed for admitting the two points in SS, so I wanted to reply that I've done the same thing. My build will finish 18/2/41 when I'm done. I can't link it because the site is banned here at work, so I'll describe it.
I took ghostly strike and hemo also, which I am aware is "not good". I have also played mostly daggers only, which is also "not good" with hemo. I've added a sword main hand and a weapon swapping mod to take advantage of it. So I have two great daggers and a sword now, that I use every fight.
I believe people when they say they've done the math on hemo and daggers vs swords, but I don't understand it yet, so giving the benefit of the doubt, for the last 10 levels or so, I have used a sword also. I understand it to work differently but that's another thread entirely, that people are sick of by now.
Anyway, my justification for my build is that it is fun. I love Subtlety. There was never anything else I would have gone. I love it. I have the other "wasted" talents because I like variation. I like options for my attacks. I like the extra dodge bonus for GS and the extra damage for 5 energy with SS. I have a mod that shows me exactly the amount of energy I have, so if it ticks to 35-39 I can use Hemo or 40+ I can use either.
I may respec if we get a free respec with the new patch, but I'll certainly go back to Subtlety if I do. It's still cheap for me. I've only ever done it once.
I took ghostly strike and hemo also, which I am aware is "not good". I have also played mostly daggers only, which is also "not good" with hemo. I've added a sword main hand and a weapon swapping mod to take advantage of it. So I have two great daggers and a sword now, that I use every fight.
I believe people when they say they've done the math on hemo and daggers vs swords, but I don't understand it yet, so giving the benefit of the doubt, for the last 10 levels or so, I have used a sword also. I understand it to work differently but that's another thread entirely, that people are sick of by now.
Anyway, my justification for my build is that it is fun. I love Subtlety. There was never anything else I would have gone. I love it. I have the other "wasted" talents because I like variation. I like options for my attacks. I like the extra dodge bonus for GS and the extra damage for 5 energy with SS. I have a mod that shows me exactly the amount of energy I have, so if it ticks to 35-39 I can use Hemo or 40+ I can use either.
I may respec if we get a free respec with the new patch, but I'll certainly go back to Subtlety if I do. It's still cheap for me. I've only ever done it once.
Hey,
Thanks for the support but I'm not overly worried about being flamed: I have developped this build through my own reasoning and according to my play style (and there are times indeed where I am using SS so two points in Improved SS were not such a waste). It's a work in progress as I'm still levelling, but I'm generally pretty satisfied with it (there are a couple of points I'd move if I could, but very few).
I haven't respecced yet so I can do it anytime for a very low price (and certainly will when I hit 70). At that time, I will have experienced things myself and I will know why I choose a specific build (instead of just copying another player's one).
I am sure that most people will respect this way of making my own opinion and I let the few others flame me if they please ;)
nostra
Thanks for the support but I'm not overly worried about being flamed: I have developped this build through my own reasoning and according to my play style (and there are times indeed where I am using SS so two points in Improved SS were not such a waste). It's a work in progress as I'm still levelling, but I'm generally pretty satisfied with it (there are a couple of points I'd move if I could, but very few).
I haven't respecced yet so I can do it anytime for a very low price (and certainly will when I hit 70). At that time, I will have experienced things myself and I will know why I choose a specific build (instead of just copying another player's one).
I am sure that most people will respect this way of making my own opinion and I let the few others flame me if they please ;)
nostra
I love sub build, I do think they work best as part of hybrid builds, My build is http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=fGeoox0RrZZAMI0MhRo, I used sword or mace in my main had and dagger in my off hand, I have found haven't backstab, ss or ambush, My uses cs or garro to start off battles then hemo >hemo> evis usally mob will be dead or very closed.
Don't get me wrong, I agree with you completely. I like my build (which sounds similar to yours so far). I agree- it fits my play style. Who knows, maybe we'll make some converts?
Will speccing Hemo be viable to level at 40? I'm in <3 with subtelty too, but haven't specced hemo yet, I'm using daggers and Ambsuh + GS to grind my way through mobs. Will going Hemo with sword from SM be good? Opening CS then Hemo, Hemo, evis?
I like the extra's in Sub so I will stay sub mostly, because off Initiative, faster Vanish, Camo etc. The one thing I'm not sure off is going the dagger or sword route.
I like the extra's in Sub so I will stay sub mostly, because off Initiative, faster Vanish, Camo etc. The one thing I'm not sure off is going the dagger or sword route.
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