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Why Farming Your Own Mats is Bad (and vice versa)Follow

#1 Feb 17 2009 at 10:11 AM Rating: Good
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This has bugged me for a long, long, long time, so here it goes:

Why Farming Your Own Materials is NOT Free:
A Lesson in the Economics of Cooking


So you've got your shiny new craft skill to epic levels. The gils are at the tips of your fingers, and you know how to get it.

"All I need to do is farm/fish my own mats and I will make a killing!"

Slow down there, buckaroo. It's pencil/paper time, cause you are about to dump all those crafting levels down the toilet.

Lesson #1: TIME IS MONEY

Every second you spend in game making gil you are running your own corporation. You need to find the way for your character to maximize their gil potential per hour.

If you think crafting is it, then go for it. CRAFT.
Crafting not for you? Like to kill!? Go for it. FARM.
Running bothers you? Watching TMNT part 2 on TV and want to focus more on that? Go for it. FISH.

Want to do all three??? Well guess what! You are about to cost yourself some major gils. Let's explore why.

Lesson #2: DIVISION OF LABOR

As we just explained, time is money. Every second you spend earning gil you are running your corporation with your character. If you choose to ignore the AH and farm/fish your own mats, you could be doing yourself a major disservice. Let's explore further.

I am going to look specifically at 3 very popular craft items for cooking. You can attribute what I have said to just about every other craft and item and find one that works best for you. In all cases if I er it will be on the side of the CRAFTER, never the FARMER/FISHERMAN (you will see why below). Also I will ignore AH fees for ALL items.

DIVIDE YOUR LABOR!

You are a level 100 fisherman AND a lvl ??? Cook. Good fer you, Jack! But those are two different abilities completely! So let's divide yourself up so BOTH the fisherman and the chef get paid! **** ya!

SQUID SUSHI (all prices are current as of 2/17/09)

Hour 1: Gogo fishing! Your fishing self is able to pull in 12 squids per hour. Go you! That means after 1 hour you have accumulated 36,000g in fish. (36,000g/hour!)

So your fishing self could sell those fish on the AH for 36,000g. But you don't. Instead, you want to use them for crafting. In essence, you will 'sell' 36,000g worth of fish to yourself for crafting. (BIG MISTAKE!!)

Hour 2: Gogo crafting! You are already 'in the hole' to yourself 36,000g you could have made by selling your fish. Also, you need to buy the rest of the ingredients! So you buy:

wasabi (@24k/stack)
rice (@2k/stack)
water (@144/stack)
vinegar (@2880/stack)

Now don't forget that you 'bought' those fish from your fishing self! So that's 36,000g you owe yourself!

Total Cost per Stack of Mats - 65,024g.

[Crafting Assumptions: I assume 10/30/50%. Ie. If you are 11+ lvls over synth:10%HQ, 31+: 30%HQ, 51+:50%HQ. For all items with HQ2,3,4 I assume 50% of HQ are HQ1, 50% HQ2.]

So you set out to craft your squid sushi's.

[I will assume that you can do 4 stacks of mats per crafting hour (including all associated running around for items.) Prices for NQ sushi: 10,200g/stack, HQ17,000g/stack]:

Using 4 stacks of Mats, your PROFIT (sale - cost) will be:
If you are level 70-80 Chef: -15296g/hour
Lvl 81-100 Chef: 1024g/hour
Lvl 101+ Chef: 33,664/hour.

Wait! What!? How? But I'm an epic crafter!

Not quite, Jack. You would have been better off just fishing for 2 hours.

Result for 2 hours of work:
FISHERMAN: +72,000g
Fishing squids for 2 hours.

FISHING & CRAFTING: +20,704g or +37,024g or +69664g (depending on craft level).
1 hour fishing profit: +36,000g
1 hour crafting profit:
Lvl 70 chef: -15296g
Lvl 81 chef: 1024g
Lvl 101+ chef: 33,664g

Result: YOU LOSE MR. CRAFTER! The supply side just kicked your ****, jack!

SOLE SUSHI

Since I've explained my layout already, I'll just get to the meat (or the fish, as it were)

(feel free to fact check prices with ffxiah if you like, they are current).

FISHERMAN: +21,800g
2 hours of fishing black soles resulting in 2 stacks.

FISHING & CRAFTING: +19,204 or +22,404(depending on craft level).
1 hour fishing profit: +10,900g
1 hour crafting profit:
Lvl 80-90 chef: 8304g
Lvl 91+ chef: 11,504g

Result: It seems if you are Lvl 91+ in cooking it's a good day to go hog wild on cooking, you actually beat fishing (by 604g/hour. nice use of 91+ lvls of crafting).


MEAT MITHKABOBS

"But I can't fish! And I want to waste gil too!"

Fear not, little friend. There is always **** meat! GO farm!

FARMING (3 stacks/hour): +72,000g
2 hours of farming

FARMING & CRAFTING: +18240g or +29040g or +50,640g or +72240 (depending on craft level)
1 hour farming profit: +36,000g
1 hour crafting profit:
Lvl 38-48 chef: -17760g
Lvl 49-68 chef: -6960g
Lvl 69-88 chef: 14,640g
Lvl 89+ chef: +36240

Result: Supply Side PWN!

Lesson #3: Math is For Sissies

I really like crafting. It makes me feel good to create stuff that other people can use. I HATE that I have to pay every time I do it, when I'd make more gils mindlessly slaughtering helpless animals or fish.

I don't expect this post to make a difference. Responses will likely be:

"But I craft AS I fish/farm"

"How do I have to PAY myself when I fish/farm?"

"Math is for sissies"


But I guess money always takes work to make. It's a shame that 100+ work into craft lvling is not 'work.' It seems work is only running in circles killing, farming, and fishing.

SO today, 2/17/09, Supply side is the only way to make money in Cooking.

END TRANSMISSION




Edited, Feb 17th 2009 1:17pm by moonica
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#2 Feb 17 2009 at 10:41 AM Rating: Decent
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*claps* Well said. All true, unless there's an elephant in the room that I've missed. This is exactly why I'm leveling fishing and have stopped leveling crafts, it's just not worth it farm ingredients for synthing when the ingredients themselves sell just as well... Plus I can do work while I feesh =) Rate up.
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#3 Feb 17 2009 at 10:42 AM Rating: Excellent
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moonica wrote:


I don't expect this post to make a difference.


Mostly you can expect this because your premise is wrong...
1) in all of your examples level 100 crafters make a profit,
2) you pick heavily RMT'd recipies to complain about, and still have people making a profit, and
3) on your squid example, you assume that all crafters fail 4/12 times (12 squid make 6 stacks of sushi without HQ's)

Your argument makes more sense to just say... you are not making tons more by farming up your own ingredients.

** edited cause i can't spell

Edited, Feb 17th 2009 1:45pm by wolfbaneshaile
#4 Feb 17 2009 at 10:44 AM Rating: Decent
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This is good advice. The only time it's really good to farm your own materials is when you're broke and you have to.
#5 Feb 17 2009 at 10:59 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Mostly you can expect this because your premise is wrong...
1) in all of your examples level 100 crafters make a profit,
2) you pick heavily RMT'd recipies to complain about, and still have people making a profit, and
3) on your squid example, you assume that all crafters fail 4/12 times (12 squid make 6 stacks of sushi without HQ's)

Your argument makes more sense to just say... you are not making tons more by farming up your own ingredients.

** edited cause i can't spell


I would like to respond to each of your issues in turn.

#1 I will break down exactly how much MORE profit a 100+ crafter will make per example (assuming 2 hours of work time)

SQUIDS:
FISHING ONLY: 72,000g
FISHING & CRAFTING: 69,664g

100+crafter loses

SOLES:
FISHING ONLY: 21,800g
FISHING & CRAFTING: 22,404g

Crafter wins by VERY slight margin. Certainly not enough to warrant 100 lvls of skillups.

MEATS:
FARMING ONLY: 72,000g
FARMING & CRAFTING: 72,240

Crafter edges again, but by an even smaller margin.

We're talking about a difference of 200-400g/hour. Completely insignificant.

#2

I chose these crafts as they are all no secret. I didn't want to cramp someone's niche, if they found one.

#3

My squids don't show the break you are talking about.

Cost of 1 stack of mats: 65,024g.
NQ Value for one stack of sushis: 10,200g
4 stacks of mats will yield 244,800g worth of sushis, with a cost of mats being 260,096. Ergo, profit loss is -15,296g for 4 stacks of mats.

Thank you for the post!

Edited for Argument

My Argument is this: Farming your own materials does not turn a profit loss synth into a profit making synth. You are still losing money every time you craft, you're just eating up the money you JUST made farming/fishing.

This issue is compounded when you take into account the TIME spent crafting that would have been better spent farming/fishing.

Edited, Feb 17th 2009 2:10pm by moonica
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#6 Feb 17 2009 at 11:34 AM Rating: Good
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What I got out of this post:

Stop crafting and farm (if you like money).

And I agree, farming makes me more money, but what if everyone stops crafting?
Then I would make more money crafting, but only until everyone starts crafting.

I think its a cyclic issue that is weighted more in the farmers favor thanks to RMT and just plain impatient behavior from normal players that want to undercut to sell THEIR stack of stuff faster.

BTW I like your post and im sure you will agree its very situational based on the specific item's economy right?
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#7 Feb 17 2009 at 11:52 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
BTW I like your post and im sure you will agree its very situational based on the specific item's economy right?


Actually I find this issue across the board, on just about every item. There are a few REALLY good nuggets out there, but you should always have some idea of a baseline of income per hour to rate against. Can you farm XXX item at a rate of 30k/hour? Then that's your baseline, everything should be put against that until you find something consistently better.

My issue is not with crafting in general (cause there are good synths out there), but more towards the outlook "If you just farm your own materials you will see a profit." heck just about every crafted item on ffxiah and you will see someone posting exactly that.

"If you just farm your own...."

"You can fish the ingredients then...."

It's all nonsense. Hence my title "Why Farming Your Own Mats is Bad." If your goal is money then the ability to produce your own ingredients has no bearing on what your profit potential is.

People's response to this has been "Well, this is the purest of free economies..." which it most certainly is NOT. In FFXI mismanagement will never get you evicted from your moghouse, have your wife/husband/friends leave you, or have you literally starving to death on the streets of jeuno. And no well-run company can edge out poorer run ones because the AH is set for the fool, not the wise, since the poor can always produce inefficiently.


1. Profit Farming + Loss Synth = some profit.
2. Profit Farming + Profit Farming = More Profit.

People just see the money they make from #1 and think they are killing it. They don't follow that their time would be better spent elsewhere.

And yes it is cyclical. If more people understood this and farmed instead of synthed, then the prices of synths would go up, bringing more people back to synths. With an appropriate synth price then proper markets could continue.

But, as said above, people working in RMT sweat shops will never understand this, so prices will stay low. But they have their own ways of making strong gil (price-fixing) that works incredibly well for them once they've run you out of their market.

Edited, Feb 17th 2009 2:55pm by moonica
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#8 Feb 17 2009 at 12:02 PM Rating: Good
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This is true; at least in my experience in cooking synths.

really, it's to the point where I as a cook find it easier to just *buy* the items for consumption rather than bother farming to make it; unless I'm in a particular mood to do so.

I do like crafting, but save for a few.. rare cases, its mostly dead as a gilmaker :(
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#9 Feb 17 2009 at 1:11 PM Rating: Default
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I am actually leveling a mule's cooking to 100, not for the money really though.

Its more about getting stuff cheaper than AH in example if I want to get a vast ammount of pet food without spending the money for finished product or wait for enough to get on the AH.

But if my mule gets a couple stacks of +1 food while I am making sushi, its going on the AH lol

The only reason I can see farming ingredients is when there isnt enough on the AH to buy or if the ingredient costs more than I could make in a reasonable ammount of time of farming.

An example would be when I was leveling on pet food zeta, there were just not enough stacks of meat on the AH for me to level up as fast as I wanted so I took thf to the mountains and farmed myself about 5 stacks an hour to suppliment the AH supply.
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#10 Feb 17 2009 at 1:13 PM Rating: Decent
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You assume that the crafter is stupid enough not to look up the market value of their fished/farmed materials before using them to make something of equal or lesser value.

Bream sushi: 12 breams for 10,000g, 12 wasabi for 23,580g, 12 vinegar for 2160g, 12 rice for about 2000g, 12 water for 132g, and 12 earth crystals for 600g for a total of 38,472g. Market value of the sushi: at least 48,000g. Why not buy the rest of the mats and earn another 10,000g for the time you spent fishing up the breams? If you plan well it only takes a few minutes to get the ingredients and another few to craft the sushi.



Edited, Feb 17th 2009 4:15pm by Hamasi
#11 Feb 17 2009 at 1:32 PM Rating: Good
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I should add that when I see a recipe not making a profit on the AH I assume that either people are using it to raise their skill or they're trying to squeeze out competition by making it temporarily unprofitable. In both cases I won't make that item for auction or bother farming/growing its ingredients.
#12 Feb 17 2009 at 1:40 PM Rating: Excellent
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Pretty much been saying for years that crafting is ruled by the farmers. Supply, profit, subsequent saturation of end product and demand. It's all got a source beyond the swirling crystal and there's very little the crafter can do to influence profits ESPECIALLY if competition is present.

I know when I'm discussing the ills of crafting with others, a popular response is, "Well, I see all these profit recipes on FFXIAH..." where those numbers make no account for demand, could be based on prices from years ago in the more obscure synths/sold materials, and don't always properly account for tiered synthing where selling the combined materials may have just gotten you more than shooting for a finished product.

I'd like to think things would be a bit healthier for the crafter if we had some variety in demands and options for specialization to cut down on the glut of competition, but when so much of the best gear is simply an R/E drop away or yet another maxed craft level 1 mule enters the system, there's no real balance to it. Just pray the next patch gives you a new synth you could gouge for a few days and then go back to wrestling with the debate of crafting, farming, camping (H)NMs, or trying to do more BC fights in search of that lottery ticket. At least in the latter cases, you didn't spend (much) money to make money. Not a whole lot different than people saying MMM is awesome for EXP without considering the fact it's a ton of farming beforehand when you could've just EXPed elsewhere beforehand and come out ahead.

Edited, Feb 17th 2009 4:43pm by Seriha
#13 Feb 17 2009 at 1:42 PM Rating: Excellent
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moonica wrote:

My squids don't show the break you are talking about.

Cost of 1 stack of mats: 65,024g.
NQ Value for one stack of sushis: 10,200g
4 stacks of mats will yield 244,800g worth of sushis, with a cost of mats being 260,096. Ergo, profit loss is -15,296g for 4 stacks of mats.

Edited, Feb 17th 2009 2:10pm by moonica


not going after your math or even conclusion... what i meant by the break rate.... 12 squid = 6 stacks of sushi (with 0 breaks and 0 HQ's)... so by definition if you are only making 4 stacks you are assuming 4 breaks per 12 synths.

Overall though, your premise ONLY works when you are talking about items that are a loss without HQ, which is why i say it is generally flawed. If you found a synth (and there are a bunch even within cooking), that the ingredients add up to 3k cost, and the item sells for 6k... then it is more profit to farm and craft

I actually never farm at all... i make my money in 20 mins off all AH purchasing for synthing. I'm just commenting on the fact that it is probably not all cut and dry as you are insinuating.
#14 Feb 17 2009 at 4:26 PM Rating: Decent
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Farming your own materials is a good thing in the sense that it can teach you just how much money there is to be made with farming that particular material.

One person can make 50k/hr at some place, another person could do 500k/hr, whatever, but it's not always easy to pinpoint what YOU can make without going there to try it yourself.
#15 Feb 17 2009 at 4:47 PM Rating: Excellent
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Good point about the opportunity cost, here's the counterpoint:

It's more about getting the most gil into your hands in the least amount of time.

In your Squid example, you can fish for 2 hours and get 24 Squids, but then you have to sell them in your 7 AH slots (or more if you mule them). You're competing with every other Squid seller on the server, and there is no guarantee yours will sell. My server sells about 15-20 Squids to cooks per day.

Until they sell, your slots are locked up and you start coming across the problem of oversupply.

If you cook your own Squids, you get access to sell the 20 stacks of NQ sushi, and 12 stacks of HQ sushi per day. You are not limited by the rate other cooks buy your fish off the AH, and you get much more gil per day when you are doing hardcore fishing.

#16 Feb 17 2009 at 4:59 PM Rating: Good
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Wow so many assumptions in this I don't know where to begin...

Assumption 1) Crafting takes as much time as farming.

Probably not true. I keep a healthy supply of ingredients on my mule so if I need to craft something, i just dump a few stacks over craft a stack or two and I'm done. Total time like 20 minutes.

Assumption 2) Nothing else drops while farming.

This is a bad assumption because for both the farmer and the crafter it means extra gil to be factored in.

Assumption 3) Prices are the same all over.

Well guess what they vary widely from server to server and it makes your examples kind of meaningless.

My fun experiment... Coeurl Subs!!

Farm 1 hour:

2 stacks Coeurl Meat - 20k
10 Coeurl Hides - 20k
3 stacks Coeurl Whiskers - 30k

Crafting 30 minutes:

Coeurl Meat - 20k
Black Pepper - 4k
Grape Juice - 9k
Selbina Butter - 1.4k
Rock Salt - 300gil
Wild Onion - 12k
Olive Oil - 500gil
Honey - 6k
----
White Bread - 4k
Cabbage - 1k
Mithran Tomato - 1k
Butter - 1.4k
Crying Mustard - 1k

Total Synth Cost: -58k

18 Stacks of Coeurl Subs at AH: 12k x 18 = +216k
10 Coeurl Hides = +20k
3 stacks Coeurl Whiskers = +30k

Grand Total Farming+Crafting: 208k!!!!!!!!
(and that's if I don't even HQ anything)

Farming another 30 minutes
1 stack coeurl meat = 10k
5 hides = 10k
1.5 stack whiskers = 15k

plus original farming of 70k

Grand Total just Farming: 105k

UHOH!!!! My farming + crafting skills just made me an extra 103k gil!!! That is not a small amount!!!! XD

Not only that, but I made an additional 50k gil farming over just buying the ingredients from AH/vendors and crafting alone!!!!

So basically I'm laughing all the way to bank!

edit: I guess I should say before some smart @ss asks why I don't just craft for 1½ hours and make 600k ... I frontload my ingredients on my mule while I'm in certain cities during my normal travels. Maybe an extra 15 minutes of time for 8 stacks of synth. But to synth non-stop from AH materials and running around to vendors would cost me way more in time and materials than I'm spending the way I do it since not all ingredients are in all locations and always in stock. I think the main reason I farm is that I can't count on the main (non-vendor) ingredients to be in stock when I want to synth. Sometimes they aren't. So farming is a necessity.
I guess this would be Assumption 4) everything is always in stock when you want it. It isn't. >.<


Edited, Feb 17th 2009 8:10pm by rikkuotaku
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#17 Feb 18 2009 at 1:56 AM Rating: Excellent
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moonica wrote:
SQUID SUSHI (all prices are current as of 2/17/09)

Hour 1: Gogo fishing! Your fishing self is able to pull in 12 squids per hour. Go you! That means after 1 hour you have accumulated 36,000g in fish. (36,000g/hour!)

So your fishing self could sell those fish on the AH for 36,000g. But you don't. Instead, you want to use them for crafting. In essence, you will 'sell' 36,000g worth of fish to yourself for crafting. (BIG MISTAKE!!)

Hour 2: Gogo crafting! You are already 'in the hole' to yourself 36,000g you could have made by selling your fish. Also, you need to buy the rest of the ingredients! So you buy:

wasabi (@24k/stack)
rice (@2k/stack)
water (@144/stack)
vinegar (@2880/stack)

Now don't forget that you 'bought' those fish from your fishing self! So that's 36,000g you owe yourself!

Total Cost per Stack of Mats - 65,024g.

[Crafting Assumptions: I assume 10/30/50%. Ie. If you are 11+ lvls over synth:10%HQ, 31+: 30%HQ, 51+:50%HQ. For all items with HQ2,3,4 I assume 50% of HQ are HQ1, 50% HQ2.]

So you set out to craft your squid sushi's.

[I will assume that you can do 4 stacks of mats per crafting hour (including all associated running around for items.) Prices for NQ sushi: 10,200g/stack, HQ17,000g/stack]:


Up until this last part, so far I would have agreed (other than the part where you call crafting a "BIG MISTAKE!!"). But I see two things wrong with this. For one, prices vary from server to server. On mine, squid sushi costs about 12k, and HQ costs about 22k per stack. Gigant squid, on the other hand, is still 3k a piece.

For another thing, I think your assumption of crafting time being 4 stacks of materials per hour is a bit off. All of the materials can be bought from Jeuno merchants or the Jeuno auction house for decent price before you head out. It doesn't take more than a few minutes to gather materials. You can then craft what you catch while fishing and by the time you head back to town, you've already got sushi ready to sell. A few minutes of material gathering in town, plus 48 synths certainly wouldn't add an extra hour to fishing. Time spent crafting may be a factor, but you are making it out to be a far bigger factor than it really is.

Quote:
Using 4 stacks of Mats, your PROFIT (sale - cost) will be:
If you are level 70-80 Chef: -15296g/hour
Lvl 81-100 Chef: 1024g/hour
Lvl 101+ Chef: 33,664/hour.

Wait! What!? How? But I'm an epic crafter!

Not quite, Jack. You would have been better off just fishing for 2 hours.

Result for 2 hours of work:
FISHERMAN: +72,000g
Fishing squids for 2 hours.

FISHING & CRAFTING: +20,704g or +37,024g or +69664g (depending on craft level).
1 hour fishing profit: +36,000g
1 hour crafting profit:
Lvl 70 chef: -15296g
Lvl 81 chef: 1024g
Lvl 101+ chef: 33,664g

Result: YOU LOSE MR. CRAFTER! The supply side just kicked your ****, jack!


If you consider the higher price of sushi on some servers (including mine) and that crafting time is most likely less than your assumption, it would seem that the 101+ crafter would often make much more gil per hour by crafting what he caught than he did just fishing. He already made almost as much as he did fishing with your server's low sushi prices and your assumed high crafting time. And I still think there's some things you left out. Mainly the use of inventory and auction house space.

I think inventory space is very important with this recipe because the main ingredient we're talking about is unstackable. If you left with 30 free inventory spaces, you could catch 30 squids before you ended up with a full inventory. But what if you instead, bought 3 stack of each material before you left. You'd only have 15 free spaces, but if you kept crafting as you fish, you would eventually burn through all of those materials, and what you would end up with is about 18 inventory spaces full of sushi, crafted from 36 squids. You've not only caught more squids, but they took up less inventory space by turning them into sushi. You could leave with more or less space or more or less materials than I used in this example, but the point is that crafting and fishing allows you to better manage your inventory space than just fishing, which can be a factor for those who are hurting for space, who fish for long periods of time, or both.

Lastly, the use of auction house space. I'm not going to figure out exact numbers for this example (you can if you want, but the concept is more important than exact numbers).

Let's say that each squid gets you 3k, each synth if you cook + fish gets you 3500, and each synth if you buy all the materials yourself gets you 500 gil. Since it takes two synths to make a stack of sushi, the amount you make per auction house slot is doubled. This would mean that if you put 7 squids up by themselves, you could put 21k gil worth of squids on the auction house at one time. To put up more, you would have to wait until they your first ones sell. If you bought all of the materials yourself, synthesized them, and then put them up, you would have only 7k gil (in profit) worth of squid sushi up at one time. And again, if you wanted to make more than that, you would have to wait until the first ones sold to put more up.

The last option, cooking + fishing, would allow you to put up 7k gil profit worth of squid sushi in each auction house slot. It's the most gil in your pocket per transaction that you can get. This is something I find important because I don't like to keep checking the auction house waiting for things to sell. I find it to be both annoying and inefficient. If I can put up 7 squids, wait for them to sell, then put up 7 more squids, or I could synth those 14 squids into 7 stacks of sushi and put them up, leave them alone for a little while while I join a party or event, sleep, go to work, or whatever, and then end up with more than I would have if I chose the first option, I will definitely go with the second. You could bring up the point that you can use mules, but I would still rather be efficient with my AH space whether I have 7 AH spaces or, say, 21. Besides that, using too many mules for AH space could easily flood the market and drive down the price of whatever it is your selling.

Edited, Feb 18th 2009 5:44am by ChocoboDragoon
#18 Feb 18 2009 at 2:17 AM Rating: Decent
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I had a friend lvl99 Clothcrafter.
He was making a killing in craft but guess what ? He needed 3M+ gils to buy the materials and selling those HQ stuff was taking a fair share of time.
Not everybody can have that much of a working capital.
So what to do ?
Farm your own materials or wait for the materials prices to drop ?

Edited, Feb 18th 2009 11:18am by SeeYouTaru
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#19 Feb 18 2009 at 3:03 AM Rating: Default
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Some ingredients don't sell too well in the AH, Mercanbaligi for example although it's crafted synth. sells x20 times faster.
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#20 Feb 18 2009 at 5:07 AM Rating: Excellent
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There is also a psychological side to this. Some people have trouble getting themselves to sit down and focus on making money. Sometimes using an excuse like "I'm farming my ingredients for skilling up" is the push that person needs to go out and do something that would generate some money for them. While the farming itself doesn't actually make that particular synth more profitable, it does make it so that a person may spend more of their time attempting to make money than they would have otherwise.

I know that's why I fish up my ingredients for skilling up cooking...
#21 Feb 18 2009 at 5:44 AM Rating: Default
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I agree with just about everything that was said. No one seems to get the issue I'm raising, however.

FFXIAH.COM, look under squid sushi:

Quote:
How can you make a profit off of 9k/stack? Well,
4000 for Wasabi
300 for Vinegar
100 for the Rice
20 for water
-----
4420 - Leaving 4580 for squid/crystals. I'm not saying it's easy, but of course it can be done especially if you're a fisherman.


AND, one of the most applauded posts on sole sushi:

Quote:
Let's assume that you farm your own crystals, fish your own fishes, grow your own rice, and buy water at an NPC for 12g a piece.


My scenario takes into account the difference in time between farming/fishing and crafting. If you'd read my assumptions, you will see I assume you can farm 3 stacks of an item/hour, fish 12 fish in 1 hour, and complete synths for 4 stacks of mats per hour. I do not take into account other items that may drop while farming, or other non-target fish, because I believe my example already illustrates the issue.

What is the issue?

Profit Farming + Profit Loss Synth = Some Money
Profit Farming + Profit Farming = Better Money

You can HQ items cause of high crafting level? Check my numbers: even assuming a 50% HQ rate for your synths you have not eclipsed the gil you would have made had you just kept farming. If you have, the difference is marginal at best.

If you craft while you fish you are STILL using time! This isn't 2002 where you have a wait time between fishing casts. If you are crafting you are not fishing, so you ARE spending time elsewhere.

Just because you have "already dumped items to your crafting mule" doesn't mean that it didn't take time to do so. SO when you think you take only 20 minutes to craft, you have to look at the WHOLE picture. However, even if you assume 6-7 stacks of mats/hour you won't see much in major returns of crafting vs. farming.

AH Slots are the big issue here, and I agree completely. By crafting to Sushi instead of just selling the squids you maximize use of AH space. If you are fishing once per day to maximum with crafting you will probably eclipse my example above simply by AH possibilities. But if you fish once every 4 days, yet log in every day, the fact still stands. Your better off selling all the fish.

Let me make it simpler:

Farmer/Fisher:
10 + 10 = 20
Farmer/Fisher + Crafter:
10 + 8 = 18

If you can get the scenario to be:
10 + 15 = 25
Then, STOP FARMING! Go Craft + Craft!
15 + 15 = 30

Summation: Farming your own mats to synth does not make you the best return on gil.

btw, thank you for the post on the coeurl subs. any other profitable crafts you'd like to hand over today?
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#22 Feb 18 2009 at 7:26 AM Rating: Decent
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Thinking about it more, I think it might be best to farm and craft but not just farm for the craft.

You have 7 slots on the AH and thinking your going to sell all 7 per hour is crazy. (I know there are exceptions)

There for I like the subs argument: Farm meat but get hide and whiskers and my experience was in the mountains was like 6 hides and 3 whisker stacks for every stack of meat. I NPC'd the hides (just for space and time sake even though I was throwing away like 1k per because of it) the whiskers sell between 1-5 stacks a day on my server and meat alot faster. But if I use the meat to synth I make more money per AH slot per hour which is my goal in the end I guess.

Im still working on this idea though, I like the discussion so far ^^
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#23 Feb 18 2009 at 9:19 AM Rating: Good
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You have a hidden assumption of infinite demand.

With many recipes, if you spend all your time farming, you will have a greater supply than demand. Your ah will fill up, and you won't be able to move all your product.

Similarly... If you spend all your time crafting.. you will again produce more than you can sale.

Spending time doing both, invariably, will produce less final product. So the demand doesn't need to be as high to reap the same profit.

--

If you have more time (even making less per hour), you can make more gil, since the ratio of supply to demand is lower when you do both.

Edited, Feb 18th 2009 12:27pm by Ineptvagrant
#24 Feb 18 2009 at 9:49 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Let me make it simpler:

Farmer/Fisher:
10 + 10 = 20
Farmer/Fisher + Crafter:
10 + 8 = 18

If you can get the scenario to be:
10 + 15 = 25
Then, STOP FARMING! Go Craft + Craft!
15 + 15 = 30


I see exactly what you're saying, but this just doesn't seem practical at all to me. I guess I make more "per hour" crafting than farming if I were to add up the total time I spend doing both, so according to you I should "STOP FARMING! Go Craft + Craft!"

If the auction house were a place where you could dump everything you craft for the current going price, and there were enough materials for you to buy an unlimitted supply of them, then sure, that'd be great advice. But it isn't. It's the foundation of the entire FFXI economy for everything but the most expensive items in the game (which are usually traded/bazaar'd), and there are limits to how much you can make by using it. Buying materials in Jeuno and then crafting them to fill up my auction house would probably take about 10 minutes. But what then? Keep crafting until my inventory is full and wait until my first batch sells to put up more? Keep crafting until I've filled up an account full of Jeuno mules, creating such high demand that I ruin my own market? I don't see any appealing option here. By doing nothing but buying materials and crafting, I'm creating goods so quickly (and for the lowest possible profit per synth, I should add) that I can't sell them fast enough to make a significant amount of gil.

Let's go back to the example in my earlier post where a stack of squid sushi makes you 7k if you fish + craft, or 1k if you just craft. You would need to sell 7 times the amount of sushi just crafting, to equal the gil you make fishing + crafting. Even if this could be done in the same amount of time that you would have spent fishing, what type of effect do you think think this would have on your market?

If you can make more farming than crafting, there are still other things to consider such as managing inventory space, which I mentioned in my post above. In the squid sushi example, it favors the crafter (although it won't always, with black sole it would be more space efficient not to craft while fishing). Auction house space is another but you already acknowledged that. One thing that I didn't mention is the rate at which the product sells, which depending on the synth could favor either the materials or the synthesis result. If it's the synth sells at a quicker rate than the materials, crafting may be the better choice than selling off what you get farming.

I think that there are far too many factors to just do one or the other without considering all factors (inventory space, auction house space, selling rate, your effect on your own market to name only some of them). In some (possibly many) cases, I think farming and crafting compliment each other so well that doing both can make you more money than either of them could individually in the same amount of time.

Edited, Feb 18th 2009 12:53pm by ChocoboDragoon
#25 Feb 18 2009 at 10:42 AM Rating: Excellent
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It should also be noted that your farming profits can vary more than anything else. First off, if you don't have /thf, I'd say forget farming period. Even with /thf, you may not have a job ideal for soloing efficiently. If your main is not designed for DD, ex WHM or BRD, or is limited by MP, ex BLM, farming isn't going to bring in gils faster than buying mats off AH and crafting them.
#26 Feb 18 2009 at 11:38 AM Rating: Good
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Other reasons to farm your own mats:

-skilling up in the field
Making scorp arrowheads and rings to skill bonecraft? go to the maze and farm scorps/skeles while crafting. You may also pick up stacks of silk off the crawlers to sell. You can stack your arrowheads for more space, failed rings take up no space but may offer skillups, so you can keep going for a while at a decent rate. You know that the scorp arrowheads are a loss almost anywhere, but this way you are farming up useful/worthwhile stuff and skilling...
-No mats on the AH
I like to farm my own mats most of the time just to be independent of the system. The more I can make for myself without relying on others the less I'll be slowed down when I need certain types of arrows that just arent selling today. Granted, I only really do this when I'm crafting stuff for my own or my LSs use.
-Farming the "max profit" mobs every single time is BORING
For the love of god, its the same set of mobs, in the same places every time. By basing my farm locations around my skill up synths most of the time, makes it interesting, and I can sell farming byproducts.

Note: I craft a fair bit, no 100 yet, but at 60 on everything but fishing, goldsmithing, blacksmithing, and leathercraft (gold/black/leather are all over 31 atm, skilling leather until I hit 60, then I'll start leveling thf(46 atm) for bst coins to help skill ups in the smithings) I don't craft just for gil. EVER. I know I could make money, I know it wouldn't be too hard to find a niche, and I'll sometimes craft extra of something when I know I'll make a profit selling it. I don't farm everything, but I farm well over half my mats. I enjoy it, and I love seeing that my skill increased by X every once in a while, because it means that my character is that much better at something, and is that much more useful. I don't even care if I put it to use, I just like seeing the "dings"

Kinda just saying there's more to just crafting than pure profit, there is flexibility, independence from the market, character advancement and a change of pace.
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#27 Feb 18 2009 at 12:38 PM Rating: Excellent
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Using the example of yourself being a corporation, not many corporations are going to sell a product to a competitor to make a profit when they themselves can make the same profit from the product. I tend to look at crafting as a way to save myself money and not allow other crafters to make money off of me. If you have already invested in leveling a craft and then decide that you can make more money simply farming the ingredients and selling them instead of crafting them, then you have wasted so much of the time and effort you have already invested in said craft.
#28 Feb 18 2009 at 2:40 PM Rating: Excellent
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DrwatsonX wrote:
Using the example of yourself being a corporation, not many corporations are going to sell a product to a competitor to make a profit when they themselves can make the same profit from the product.


But few corps operate in every link in the product chain. For example lumber companies don't get into the business of making furniture even though there's profit to be made there. Lumber companies don't really compete with furniture makers. There are companies that do it all, for example oil companies both extract raw materials, process it, and distribute it, in which case the argument works. But not all players necessarily have to play both sides, they can put aside crafting to focus on farming if it's more profitable. Sort of how Sega stopped making consoles and just made games for their former rivals. It got them out of the hole.

DrwatsonX wrote:
then you have wasted so much of the time and effort you have already invested in said craft.


If it was a wasted investment, wasting more time into it won't help recoup lost profits.

Edited, Feb 18th 2009 5:42pm by cookiesmonster
#29 Feb 18 2009 at 3:45 PM Rating: Excellent
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Aside from skilling up nobody is going to craft for a loss. That being said then its not a wasted investment until you stop utilizing it. I leveled cooking and while there are a few things I do craft to sell for profit, the majority of crafting I do is for my use which keeps me putting any more of my hard earned gil in a competitors pocket. A penny saved is a penny earned.
#30 Feb 19 2009 at 12:24 AM Rating: Excellent
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Edit: Chocobodragoon made the point about compressing more stuff into less AH slots before I did. Reference one paragraph below ICO fire and ice double XD.

WARNING: WoT AHEAD!

[/em also prepares to be voted below sub-default]

First off, let me say that I absolutely, wholeheartedly agree with your premise. The cost of materials should be factored in to your math, and if it comes out that you lose, then you shouldnt (generally) craft it. This being said, I'd like to poke a few holes, mostly from the practical application side as compared to the theoretical, on paper side. Caveat: it's 230am and my wife just dared me to a double fire and ice... so if this degenerates into babble or horrible grammar or atrocious misspells... yeah. Anyway, on with the poking.

#1 Inventory compression

Two examples:
First is tuna sushi. 6 gugru tuna become one stack of tuna sushi. Granted, 100% nq is usually a slight loss (not bothering with specific numbers), however, let's say you fished 42 tuna. Nice, easy number. You can either restock the AH 6 times, presumably on mules, which you may not check fanatically, or, you can spend an extra hour-ish (at absolute maximum) turning those 42 tuna into 7 stacks of sushi, which can all be placed on the AH at once. Yeah yeah, flooding the market, totally different discussion :-p.

Second is good ole beehive chips. If you're not dumb about it, just selling the chips is about 16k for 10k worth of wax (again, assuming 100% hq) However, wax is stupidly easy to get to 51 over on, so this again, should be a break-even to slight profit, even under relatively less than optimal conditions, and you can fit three stacks of chips into one action house slot. In other words, you can sell 21 stacks of wax for the same convenience that you can sell 7, it just takes 3 stacks of fire and distilled water.

The point of this is that the consumables market has always centered more (at least in my opinion and experience) on how fast you can move your wares, not maximizing the profit you can make on each one at the cost of tied up slots for days.

Two other great examples of inventory/auction house compressing foods: Pescatora (which is sheer awesomeness for my pld) and Tav tacos. Reason being the grims in both cases.



Varying your market

For this, I'll use your own examples of squid and sole sushi. First, I'd like to point out that squid sushi is another excellent candidate for an example of inventory compression. That aside, the point of this is that many fisherman sell their wares raw, and many craft them. It may be postulated that these are generally two separate groups of people, as I believe it's a safe assumption that most people dont give it this much thought. Therefore, it naturally follows that by crafting some of your gains, you place yourself in two different markets, thereby making you somewhat more resistant to the people who feel it necessary to attempt to price fix and dump. People chopping sole down to stupid low? Meh. Make it all into sushi, and dump it yourself, just trickle it so the dumping isnt noticed. Someone who buys gil skilling on it? Meh, just sell the raw ingredient and have done with it.



Immunity to price fixers

OK. So. Buffalo drops. Anyone remember when SE screwed us in the **** about a month and a half ago and made milk and meat NPC buyable? On diabolos at least, this resulted in a crash of milk price, and therefore cream puff price. To a somewhat (though still pretty respectable) lesser extent, hedgehog pie and carbonara were affected. This has just started to recover, due to people running out of stockpiles. Personally, I had just restored my character, and therefore didnt have a lot of gil. I stockpiled what I could from the NPC, but, given how long cream puffs sat at 5k/stack, other people stockpiled significantly more than me (pizza's been steadily falling since introduction, and didnt seem to be much affected by this). The point of this segment is that, when someone has otherwise cornered the market and checkmated you, you can farm your materials, and then sit on them, while using other means to make your gil, without losing anything out of pocket. Then, when they get bored with it/have enough money for a PCC or whatever, they move on, and you're primed to be the next guy. To make an analogy to reality, this is roughly the same as selecting a mutual fund for a 401k that your employer will match right now. The analogy isn't perfect (a traditional retirement plan would be much more so, but no one f'in does those anymore) but you get the idea; more of an investment of effort than money, due to money constraints.



Collateral Benefits

Whenever I make hedgehog pie, I always farm the truffles. This, admittedly, is a holdover from when I didnt have enough money in 2006 (I quit for two years, came back two months ago) to buy a stack of truffles, but could buy the meat. However, while there, I can farm a stack of lizard eggs in about ten minutes, and get a boatload of other mushrooms from the truffle droppers that I can then turn into various other mushroom dishes.




Reasons to level cooking

From 48 synths, I can almost guarantee 100k profit, at least. It, at times, requires sitting on my materials or finished product (the 8 stacks of Ule-milk I just bought for 5k/stack, that I'm holding in hope of cream puff price going back to 12k/stack), and, to be perfectly honest, isnt that substantial. However, it provides yet another way for me to make gil. Between gardening, fishing, cooking, alchemy, and some (rather limited) farming, I can, almost always, escape the woes of someone **** my market, as I just sit on whatever I just did, and change my focus to a new area (carbonara at 18k/stack? lolwut? fine, I'll cut it even lower, then go mine for money to put the people who thought they could undercut me out of business, then come back to it after the people who couldnt **** far enough folded their hands. /endrant).



Closing

While I completely agree with what the OP's subject was, there are many many many variables to the economy, and many constraints placed on us (available auction house slots, number of mules, time spent playing per day, etc etc etc). If you lock yourself into one category only, there's a very good chance you may be shutout by someone who has diversified more, and can therefore still make millions in other areas, while losing hundreds of thousands to shut someone else out of their favorite market.

~Cwellan

PS Rated OP neither up nor down. agree too much to rate down. See too much single-minded tunnel vision to rate up.

Edit #2;
Edit #3; Deleted edit #2. If you dont have anything nice to say, dont say anything at all, right?

Edited, Feb 19th 2009 3:28am by CwellThor

Edited, Feb 19th 2009 3:33am by CwellThor

Edited, Feb 19th 2009 3:46am by CwellThor
#31 Feb 19 2009 at 7:37 AM Rating: Good
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I agree wholeheartedly with everything that has been said.

Reasons to farm & craft:

-skillups (both NPC lvling, battle skill lvling, skilling up craft w/o profit-loss)

-fun

-lack of AH materials

Poor reasons to farm to fund a craft:

-because the craft is profit loss and you want to make a profit.


I agree that there is more to the game then just making a profit. My premise is, and has always been, farming does not turn profit-loss synths into money-makers.

INVENTORY ISSUES

Agreed, completely. 7 AH slots are annoying. SE practically requires you to have selling mules. If you can sell an unstackable item in stacks for the same profit after craft then yes, by all means, do it. It makes 100% sense.

But saying "If you fish your own fish you CAN make a profit" makes no sense. You made the money when you caught the fish, not when you crafted.

DIVISION OF LABOR

Brilliantly said above, I will repeat.

The Nike Corporation doesn't build every item for their shoes from inception to foot. They don't have silkworm fields, harvest rocks for dye, or amalgamate rubber. If there was more money to be made in silkworm fields they would have just done that instead of making crappy shoes. By functioning the way they do Nike makes lotsa money and the silkworm breeder makes some as well (if they only sell to nike then they won't make as much as nike. If they've diversified to many companies then they could be making more.).

The reason why Ford Motor Company was such a success was that in the early 1900's studies were conducted that illustrated then if your workers each do the minimal amount of motion possible they will increase effectiveness as a whole. Too much motion on the part of any worker will reduce efficiency and profit.

You, the person sitting at the computer (not your character), are the owner/employer of a business. You have at least 1 (probably more) employees. You outsource some jobs to others as they are more effective at doing it than you are, so technically they become employees in your corporation. OR, you could have your few employees abandon their work stations and run out into the field to harvest tea leaves, because if you do you won't have to pay for tea for the break room. But is this an effective use of their time? If it is, you better question what those people do when they ARE at their desks.


SUMMATION:

Best way to make gil is operating tarutaru sweat shops in Middle East Windurst.


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#32 Feb 19 2009 at 1:54 PM Rating: Good
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This is opportunity cost, which should really be obvious to anyone that wants to make gil. It's not a difficult concept to grasp...
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#33 Feb 19 2009 at 3:38 PM Rating: Good
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Short version: Farming mats and selling them makes more gil than crafting them unless you're a decent level crafter and doinitrite. Selling the mats will, however, not get you any skill ups.

Right? <.<;
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#34 Feb 20 2009 at 1:14 PM Rating: Decent
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You also have to consider personal preferences. Some people love crafting and absolutly hate farming and they wont do it unless they have to. On the other hand, some people love farming but cant stand crafting.

Telling me I'll make (for exemple) 10k more profit / hour for doing something I absolutly hate is not gonna make me wanna do it more... It would be a better allocation of my time, to do less profit (relatively of course), but with something I enjoy.



Also, Time limit is a complete other issue to consider.

Let;s say I'm currently in town and I got an event in 20 min. To attend said event takes only 5 min to get there.

So basically, I have 15~24 minutes to spare in game. Now granted taking those 15 min to go farm / fish / mine / harvest is not always optimal. some of those would require me to either change job, change gear, make some invent space, travel for 5+ min, or any combinaison of the above. Short story: not worth my time i'd better just head to my event and kill random stuff around or wait and chat.

Or, I could always hit up the ATM machine, aka the AH, check up some mats and crystals, get the rest from various NPC in town, craft 1 stack worth of ingredients, or 2 if I got time, put it up on AH, or mule it and make some profit.
I'm sure that's far from being the best profit you can come up with if you got time ahead and planned ahead. Pretty sure 10 min of farming would grant other people more than my 10 min of crafting I just did.

But still, I just maximised those 20 min I had to spare.
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#35 Feb 20 2009 at 3:18 PM Rating: Good
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I think we need to add a caveat to farming, and that is travel time.

"1 hour of farming in Battalia Downs" = about 1 hour (Whitegate --> Jeuno ---> Battalia)

"1 hour of farming in Bibiki Bay (Island)" = about 1.5 hours ( Warp back to Home City ----> OP to Buburimu ($$$) ----> Run to Manaclipper ($$$) ----> Island)


Now, of course that's a rather extreme example, but it still is something to consider when calculating gil/hour for farming.


Not to mention that competition while farming hasn't been mentioned, while fluctuation in AH prices has. So some people want to take into account competition from other sellers at the AH, but not competition from other farmers in a zone.
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#36 Feb 22 2009 at 10:47 AM Rating: Decent
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I think this depends alot on the person doing the crafting. Personally I enjoy farming my mats especially if its a higher level synth or there's alot of materials. For example on my clothcraft when I hit Field Tunica's. I would spend a day farming the more pricey mats such as wool cloth/thread and linen cloth and then once I had enough for a dozen synths (plus a little extra for breaks) i would hop a tele-dem and kill rams and sheep for some quick leathers. Almost 100% of these synths were "free" so anything I made was pure profit. At 15-20k per tunica that worked out to be 180-240k for a few hours worth of effort. Plus I was skilling up on em. A more recent example would be getting cloth to 93 on giant bird plumes. I'd like to say now that unless you have a thf or /thf save yourself the headache and buy the plumes. I parked my **** in miseraux coast for about 3 weeks farming diatryma's and took cloth from 88 to 93. The only reason I did it this way was because I had issues with spending 120-140k on a 2 stacks(and a bit) of plumes only to sell the fletchings for 45-50k. Plus as a side bonus I farmed and sold 52 stacks of giant bird feathers which will help with getting mats for dance shoes.
I guess it comes down to how much time you have to farm, how much profit you'd like to see etc. I dont do much endgame stuff cept for dynamis and some nyzul so I enjoy this approach to crafting/farming.
I'd also like to add that this was all done AFTER SE nerfed the beast blood prices (npc) Otherwise I would've farmed them and just bought the mats for my clothcrafting.
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#37 Feb 22 2009 at 5:58 PM Rating: Decent
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I find that selling farmed materials is usually the best thing to do, unless the thing you plan on selling doesn't stack, to be honest.

There are some craftables that do sell well, and it is up to you to go out and find them.

As far as "Farm and Sell" or "Farm, Craft, then Sell", do your own research and math. How many synths, and how long would it take to do such Synths? Do you have the best HQ rate possible on the synths? Is the gil gained significantly higher if you crafted them, or are you making less than 20% profit from crafting them?

Example:

Let's say it would take you an hour to obtain 10k gil worth of <x item>.
Let's say there is a recipe that takes <x item>, that you can craft.
Let's say that you have Tier51+ on <x item>.

If the materials sold for 10k gil, I would hope that crafting the said material yields at least 12, preferably 15k before I would even bother selling it. Especially if we are talking about 12 synths or more (considering the ridiculous break rate sometimes if you get on an unlucky streak).

If you don't have the highest HQ Tier possible, it will almost always be a waste of time to craft it (unless you gain skillups out of it), as other crafters are beating you hands-down in profit. Someone who has Tier31+ will not even get anywhere near what someone who has Tier51+ will get. In fact, the 31+ will probably barely break even, or sell for minor loss. What's the point of farming up 50k worth of stuff, craft it, and sell it for 45k? Those Tier51s are probably getting 60-70k out of it, as they probably HQ more than you do.

There are a few exceptions though, one being Tsurara. Tsurara, however, takes a large time investment, but the materials are almost free. Rock Salt and Distilled Water cost pennies, and the whole Toolbag stack can sell for a decent chunk of gil. Again, though, some people say "Time is Money".

However, if you're playing Sudoku or something on the side, hitting the Synth button every 30 seconds or so isn't too bad.
#38 Feb 23 2009 at 8:55 PM Rating: Good
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This is a very good debate and one I have had with several friends.

A couple things to really take into consideration is can you make more Gil farming something else then your materials are worth ? And if so, are the desired materials available in the quantity needed?

I am a Smither and this sparks a inward look for me. If an unlimited supply of quadav backplates, helms and Antican Pauldrans were available at 500-2k gil respectively Then farming them myself is a complete waste of time. I would craft for 45 min and list results and go work on merits or farm NPCable goods. On the flipside quadav backplates drop like rain don't stack and really need to be desynthed on the fly to prevent burning time running back and forth. However Antican Pauldrons have a horrible drop rate so much so that farming them yourself and desynthing can often lead to several hours of work for 10k worth of Darksteel. And yes I have done it enough to know it aint worth it.

So I would say it really depends are there 200 quadav backplates on the AH right now selling for 500 gil? Ok go farm and make 30kish an hour if your smithing is high enough. On rare ocasions I have seen large quantities on AH for 300-500 gil and I promptly buy them up taking advantage but almost never enough to create a stack of material for selling so this usually means I run out and farm for a while. Now I send to Jeuno mule and sell when whole stacks are completed.
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#39 Feb 25 2009 at 8:53 AM Rating: Decent
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I know with me the reason farm most my crafting material is because with a rather large familly i have responsibilies every night, ie laundry dishes and so on. Wich means im usually to busy to merit or pty.

I on the other hand can farm in a zone and when the dryers done leave for 20 minutes to fold clothes and switch out the wasgher and dryer and so forth. it seems to be one of the few things i can do b4 the kids get to bed.

Having said that time wise i believe im the exception.
#40 Feb 25 2009 at 9:54 AM Rating: Decent
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It really comes down to a few things on whether is is better to farm your own materials or not.

1. Is there a ready supply of the material I need on the AH?
a) Yes, buy material and synth.
b) No, guess I am farming the mat or looking to synth something else.

2. If 1 is true, can I make more gil by farming something else and buying the mats?
a) Yes, go farm something for gil, buy mats off of AH.
b) No, really no easy answer here, you can farm said material then if you want, based on whether you have gil to spend or not.

3. If 1 is true, can I make more gil by farming mats for synth and crafting said item?
a) Yes, farm away.
b) No, just buy the mats then.

4. If 1 is false, what do I do?
a) Farm mats for said synth.
b) Find alternate synth that will produce income/skillups then start over from 1
c) Farm something lucrative and sell, don't worry about crafting.

moonica wrote:
The reason why Ford Motor Company was such a success was that in the early 1900's studies were conducted that illustrated then if your workers each do the minimal amount of motion possible they will increase effectiveness as a whole. Too much motion on the part of any worker will reduce efficiency and profit.


Lol, I now understand why the Car Companies are in so much trouble financially. Their Union employees are doing too much motion. They should hire 2x more Union Employees to get out of their financial trouble by reducing the current employees workload, thus increasing efficiency.

You really had a lot of good points up until this little blurb.

Edited, Feb 25th 2009 12:02pm by Meldi
#41 Feb 25 2009 at 1:36 PM Rating: Good
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Other things of interest that I don't think have been brought up: Rate of sale.

Lets say you are farming some mat that sells at a huge profit, but sells really slow. Lets say that in crafting that farmed mat, you can make something that sells rather fast, but the final profit is a little less.

You end up with a greater profit selling the synthed item, even though each individual sale gets you less than you would have otherwise.

Just a thought.

Also, lack of any initial capital could cause one to start by farming their mats.
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#42 Feb 26 2009 at 3:57 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
OP wrote:
The reason why Ford Motor Company was such a success was that in the early 1900's studies were conducted that illustrated then if your workers each do the minimal amount of motion possible they will increase effectiveness as a whole. Too much motion on the part of any worker will reduce efficiency and profit.



Lol, I now understand why the Car Companies are in so much trouble financially. Their Union employees are doing too much motion. They should hire 2x more Union Employees to get out of their financial trouble by reducing the current employees workload, thus increasing efficiency.

You really had a lot of good points up until this little blurb.


The reason why Car Companies are in so much trouble financially?

Answer: They keep pumping cars off the assembly line like no tomorrow, but yet the Market for cars is dropping. No amount of Government Bailouts are going to save them; they are producing something that is not needed.

It is just like RMT Sushi Cooks; they flooded the AH with Sushi faster than people were needing it. Thus, value of Sushi goes way down. Only, with Cars, the value doesn't go down, it actually goes up.... but nobody is buying. The cars, therefore, just sit on the car dealerships' lots.

With an economy in recession, fewer people have the moolah to go out and buy a new car. No, they look for OLD Cars that are much, much cheaper. Which would the average money-starved consumer do? Buy a brand-spanking new car for $20k (with absurd interest rates), or go out and buy a, say, 1995 model for $5k with no interest rates, that will probably work just as well if they found a decent one?

But, the car companies keep pumping out more and more and more and more cars off the assembly lines, but nobody's buyin'. And advertising. My God, I swear, the last 2-3 months, every other TV commercial is a Car Commercial. Cars, and Pharmaceuticals. Either/or, takes up 80% of the commercial time during a TV show. Those commercial slots aren't cheap, surely. More and more car ads, more and more cars being made, but people are buying fewer cars.

No wonder they are in trouble. And the Government wants to just fork taxpayer money over to them, to bail them out? WHY!?

Jeez. Anyone with half a brain could add this up in their head... no amount of money is going to fix the problem, ****, Obama would have done more good by mailing some low-to-mid income families a $10k voucher to go buy a new car. That would have had the same effect as paying the car companies directly, to be honest, with an added twist: People now have newer cars, and they are spending less money on repairs/junkyard parts on older cars.
#43 Feb 27 2009 at 1:56 PM Rating: Decent
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1) Speaking as a 105CC, when there is a chance at a HQ, you won't be ah'ing the materials.

2) As a 95Cook, I don't farm under 5k mats unless the mob gives xp and b/kseals as well.
#44 Feb 28 2009 at 5:46 AM Rating: Decent
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It boils down to a concept called "Opportunity Cost"

If you go on holidays, you have to factor in the cost of the vacation AS WELL AS the cost of the money you could have made during the time you're gone.

Same thing goes for crafting. When you synth something where you farmed the material, you have to consider what you COULD HAVE gotten if you had simply sold the materials on the AH.

Beeswax:

3x beehive chips: 1500 gil
1x Distilled Water: 12 gil
1x Water Crystal: 100 gil

=

1x Beeswax: 2000 gil (prices are arbitrary)

This is a profit synth, whether you farmed the mats or bought them. Farming the mats doesn't make it any more profitable, you just don't need to invest your actual gil to earn the profit.

You farmed the chips, therefore the opportunity cost of not selling them as is is 1500 gil. You need to factor this value in to your equations.

In the case of someone earlier that said that they farmed all of their mats for skillup synths, so they were pure profit, unfortunately that's not entirely true. A loss synth is always a loss synth, because you could have just sold those farmed mats for more. The loss is well worth it in order to increase your skill, however let's call a spade a spade.
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#45 Mar 17 2009 at 11:40 AM Rating: Decent
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Well - I have to agree to some extent with this post. Crafting in FFXI is a huge investment in time and cost. Some will say - I'll farm all my mats (which is unrealisitic). However - if someone does (great) and make items for sale (great). However, the opportunity cost of all those mats is greater than the profit you would get from the crafted item.

It has always been like this. While crafting in FFXI is challenging and rewarding in the terms of accomplishments, getting a craft leveled high cost huge amounts of capital. To me, crafting in FFXI is to complicated and broken. A crafter should be able to earn a profit from their trade at nearly all levels. That profit increasing as the players' craft skill increases. If I had a shoe company, and I had to purchase raw materials to make the shoe, only to sale the shoe for less than it cost for my RMs - I would be out of business. That is much like craftig is in FFXI now. The RMs cost is equal to or greater than the price you can get for the item crafted.

Yes. Crafting can earn a profit for the savy. However, in many cases, you can sale the RM's for greater or equal profit.

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#46 Mar 19 2009 at 5:08 AM Rating: Decent
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Your post was well written and entertaining, though you took a lot of text to say something pretty simple.

You must always analyze each activity independently. Whichever activity yeilds the highest gil/hr is the activity that you should repeat for gil.

To make this point obvious just look at an extreme example. Even the hard core advocates of "farming your own material" do not farm their own crystals. Why not?? You are basically proving yourself wrong by not doing this. You don't farm crystals because the time it takes to farm them is too high compared to the cost, so you make much more money buy simply buying them off the AH.

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