Overranked weapons; what are you thinking?Follow

Don't get me started. What's even worse is that I'm getting passed over as main tank in favor of someone my same level(17) wearing some bullsh*t lvl 36 Iron Plate mail or something he paid 600k for. And yea always sporting the Ash Machuitl or even worse, those lvl 30+ status effect daggers.

They stand proud with their chest poked out, their big sword and shiney expensive armor - and half the stats I have. News flash: We all hav a lot of gil and could buy the useless shiney stuff too. The difference is that I will get mine when I'm the right level, and save over half the price that you paid just to show it off.



Edited, Oct 22nd 2010 1:30pm by Mithsavvy

Well I finally broke down and bought the bronze armor but I'll tell you why. The problem is supply. When you browse retainer after retainer how often do you actually see armor at your level? The only time I've ever seen a brass gladuis it was 3x more expensive then the ash macuahuitl. I've seen Bronze Scale Mail cost twice as much as Bronze Hauby.

The problem is supply and demand. I don't know why crafter are mass producing Bronze Hauby and Ash Macs, maybe they are easier or cheaper. But this is why everyone is running around out of level gear, at least I think so.

I actually was using a bronze dagger, the mach is better, Bronze i was Hitting puks for 70-80. put on a mach and hitting for 100-120. Despite being lvl 12

I only had Brass Gladius at the time. I was just posting that the rank 16 weapon was still superior to the rank 25 weapon. I picked up the Brass Dagger and it is definitely the best option for my rank.

I have noticed that they do break a lot and want to pick up some more daggers as well. At least until my Goldsmithing gets a little higher.

I just hit 20 last night on my Glad after switching from Archer.

I have the Brass Dagger for Rank 19 but also carry the Ash Macuahuitl with me.

When it comes to gear like the chest piece at Rank 20, should I be sticking with the Sentinel Chainmail/another piece closer to my Rank? Or is the Haubergeon worth using now? I checked my stats when I swamp it around at Rank 20, and the
Defense is up by I believe 10.

There's a penalty for wearing higher lvl gear, but it's % based.

Especially gear that has low numbers on it from the start suffer a lot less from this kind of penalty, think about belts.
Wearing a lvl 1 belt with lets say 6defense and no penalty at lvl 10, vs a lvl 40 belt with 20 def heck even if the penalty at that lvl was 70% of the stats (which it's not) the lvl 40 belt would still give same or more defense.

Same goes for armors, once you hit a decent lvl range not TOO far from the armor higher lvl stuff becomes better even with the penalty then the lower lvl that's same or close to your rank.

As for the Ash Machtuil. That weapon is a horrible piece of junk, and no one should ever touch it to begin with, it has too low accuracy (even at optimal lvl) and you will miss more then a blind person. Skip the machtuil even if it's cheap.

If repair price is your problem for not getting a good dagger/sword, you should try repairing in ul-dah, go near the repair guy and put the weapon in your bazaar looking for repair, just shout/say that you'r looking for repairs, crafters want to repair your stuff, most ll do it for free or very small fee, since it gives them some crafting SP.

Or you could always pick up the repair hammer yourself.

And last thing to mention, are those lvl 34 daggers, that can debuff your enemies. So far I bought them since they were cheap and had about same stats as the iron dagger. The debuff they do seem to be broken though since things still cast magic even though they'r silenced. (this includes the debuff of shield bash aswell)


Edited, Oct 30th 2010 3:53pm by Snowaeth

Because they are smart, or simply doing the right thing out of stupidity? Believe it or not, compared to Sentinel's Chainmail, or Bronze Chainmail, the Bronze Haubergeon provides more defense than either of them starting at level 17/18. The only level where the Sentinel's chain is better (by less than 1 defense point) is at lvl 22, it's optimal level, the rest of the time, the Haubergeon beats it out.

There are equations out there to calculate physical/magical defense values (I believe it is 16% for the first level and + 4% per level past the first below the item). Personally, I hold defense higher than anything else on armor, as I am a tank first and foremost. So I mainly go based off that.

But you actually have to test this stuff out before just saying, "These guys are idiots". As sometimes, the armor actually IS better. However, their weapon and shield choices, at 15, probably not so much ... ;) But from pretty much any test or calculation I have done, it is usually worth equipping items that are 3-4 levels higher than you, as they are probably better than anything else you can find at that point.

I was specifically referring to weapons in op, because in almost every instance an overranked weapon doesn't compare to one of optimal rank.

Granted there are a few mitigating circumstances where I could understand the availability of an overranked weapon is greater than one of optimal rank (iron spathas at 21 for example.)

But I was seeing so many people sporting ugly cricket bats with rocks nailed in and I couldn't understand why. Granted now ash macuahuitls are dirt cheap (and they should be, because they are quite possibly the simplest DoW weapons in existence.) But when I first made the thread it was still possible to see someone bazaaring an ash macuahuitl for 75-100k gil.

And actually what prompted me to make the thread in the first place was someone shouting about their elm macuahuitl for sale for 200k gil. I shouted back "Good luck" and they went off about how I was a childish idiot. Call me crazy, but 200k for an ugly, crappy sword seems dumb.

I wanted, more than anything, to get people atleast thinking about what they are wearing. If all you have is a weathered gladius and an ash macuahuitl, then of course the macuahuitl will be the better piece of gear... but really what cave do you have to be living in where you can't find a better alternative?

I Tried it out today, im rank 21 and using a brass dagger but I bought an Ash Macuahuitl to see what all the fuss was about, I figured it couldn't be that bad if people rank 15 are using it. It increased my attack by a measly 1 and lowered my accuracy by 17! screw that! I think people do it cos it looks cool (cos it does :P) but screw losing 17 accuracy for aesthetic value!!

lol word up, I had a whole party trying to tell me that the bronze haubergon was better at rank 18 than the dodoskin harness I had on. I fact every stat but strength and I think piety was lower at that level. What a bunch of retards....

Because they craft the items themselves? Some of the r50 Crafters now got bored and have nothing to do. Macuahuitl has higher ATK than Dagger/Spatha/Shortsword/Gladius. Higher ATK -> higher SP per hit, if it does indeed hit. It is quite noticeable when you fight something dark red to you, for example in an Eft party when your normal damage with Dagger = 30 and you get 40 SP per hit, you would have normal damage of 50 and 55 SP per hit with a Macuahuitl. On mobs with lower DEF it isn't as much noticeable.

Well, as level 23 Gladiator - the Level 38 bronze gear (cuirass, etc) is a better option than Bronze Hauby. Not only does it have a higher def when equipped, it also gives +HP.. something that is always welcomed. I do realize +STR helps for wielding a shield, and results in less damage.. but it's only ~4 STR, something you can easily make up for in another slot (or physical attributes)

Now the other guy not having as much HP as you? - well.. I can think of a few reasons. If he had a low physical level, he may not have capped vit, example being if he didn't craft at all. Or if he was trying to balance mage jobs, and having his points in the wrong area.. that's just bad planning.

On a side note, I stopped SPing GLA with another Gladiator.. not because I can't take competition - it's just that a lot of your SP comes from blocking with your shield + hitting provoke every so often.. when you're whiffing away by the side with crappy damage (comparitively speaking) it's a waste of time.

I have no numbers on this, but are you sure that the Bronze Cuirass actually gives you more DEf then the Hauby on 23, cause overranking something like 14 Ranks...pretty much destroys the whole Bonus it gives to a small fraction. Wearing a Cuirass on Rank 23 might give you like 10HP of the 44HP and Def is lowered drastically as well. I can't imagine it would actually give you more def and stats then the Hauby. It's not I like I don't know that Cuirass etc is best Gladiator Gear for that Rank, but in fact, for that Rank, for Rank 27~ its the Chain stuff nontheless.

ok.. so those are great numbers.. but I don't know where you're getting them from.
This is what happens when I equip the two naked. (naked = brass dagger + bronze pelta)

Level 23 Gladiator - Level 41 Phys
"Naked" Def 7, HP 1432
Bronze Haub Def 66, M.Def 40 HP 1432
Bronze Cuirass Def 68, M. Def 38 HP 1460

I can do screenshots if you don't believe.. but that's way too much work really.

Clearly you must be the Lord of FFXIV to know every single BS and ARM crafter on the server... Have you ever stopped to consider that maybe they level OUTSIDE of peak times? Or perhaps they just don't use guild synth support that often, or not at peak times. Comments like these are absolutely ridiculous.

If it's on Gysahl I know where most of the high level crafters are hiding :P they are rarely in the Guild btw. Yes I'm a stalking Miqo'te, simply because I try to find the best deal for high level stuff.

I have done a little comparison with a GLA friend.

LNC R32
Bronze Cuirass - r38
Bronze Sabatons - r38
Bronze Gauntlets - r38
Bronze Plate Belt - r38
Dodoskin Skirt - r27
Silver Circlet - r32
4 x Silver Ring - R28
Total Def = 290

GLA R35
Bronze Cuirass - r38
Bronze Sabatons - r38
Bronze Gauntlets - r38
Canvas Trousers - r38
Bronze Celeta - r38
Brass Tarsett - r32
4 x Silver Ring - R28
Bronze Scutum - r28 (Shield has no effect in stat windows)
Total Def = 315

Edited, Nov 23rd 2010 7:52pm by Khornette

The r50 ALC I know has never been seen in the ALC guild. The second one closest to him, r46, is only at the Guild for leve. Most of the time he's busy standing near the Repair NPC/people bazaaring to buy material/grind.
The r41 BSM/ r42 CRP I know also spend time in Guild only for local. Another r45 CRP I know spend most of his time in Ul'dah. The highest CRP (probably 49/50 today) on Gysahl I've only ever seen in LL, he's in the same LS as the r50 ALC, they have a nice spot in LL away from people :P).
The r45+ ARMs I know, all spent most of their time in Ul'dah.
The r50 WVR has spent 99% of his playing time standing at Red Ruby Xchange Avenue in Ul'dah bazaaring/crafting from day 1. He probably hasn't moved ever since, I will still see he there all day, everyday. The three WVR next to him in rank also rarely appears in the Guild.
The highest CUL I've seen is usually in Gridania. Only mid-late 30 though sadly, but he's on top.
Another 2 R42+ BSM I've seen also spend most of their time in Ul'dah. Only come to LL when they need the support.
The highest TAN (46+) I know spent most of his time in Ul'dah. The 3rd/4th highest TAN that I buy stuff from is the only top crafter I know that do spend most of his time in Leatherworker guild.

Conclusion: Your server is weird :P

I am talking about, the one situation, that I quoted above. Which happens to be the situation I analyzed the crap out of weeks ago. There have been posts about it, and there is indeed an equation for how stats are scaled down. The current take is you lose 16% of the defense a rank below, then 4% for each level below that. So you are losing 16% a level below, 20% 2 levels below, 24% 3 levels below, etc. This probably isn't 100% accurate, but it is as close as I have got/seen to the in-game values.

Lets take a closer look at what you are proposing, R38 Cuirass > R27 Hauby at R32. This is ONLY looking at the defense rating, both magic and physical scale the same, from what I have seen.

Bronze Cuirass 111 Defense (38) -> Using the 16% + 4% per level below equation
At 37 = 93.24
At 36 = 88.8
At 35 = 84.36
At 34 = 79.92
At 33 = 75.48
A3 32 = 71.01

Bronze Haubergeon 81 Defense (27) -> Defense at 32 = 81

As you can see, the Cuirass isn't "better" until 34/35ish. Again, ONLY looking at physical defense. I noticed the same thing, in game, equipping my gear starting at 32ish Gladiator actually. I just upgraded a few days ago. I tested it, with both the Cuirass and the Sabatons. At 32, the Cuirass was definitely worse than the Hauby. A lot worse? No, we are talking less than 10 defense here. The Sabatons were also worse than my +2 Bronze Sollerets (which is expected, +2 = 15% bonus stats, roughly). However, in the end, I decided to equip the plate due to the almost +100hp bonus, and only sacrificing 20ish defense.

And as you said, you have 290 defense. I have more than you, and had more than you at 32 with the chain gear on. I am an armorer, and have made basically every piece of gear and upgraded my gear at the optimal level for my character. My Bronze Plate upgrade was pre-mature, from a defense stand point, but as you stated above ... all gear is different, and the HP bonus outweighed the loss in defense, IMO.

I am not naive to the fact that all weapons/gear/armor are of different types. It is in fact something I have been posting about for weeks. Yet, people still ignore it completely. All items have a unique stat distribution, so yes, Chain will probably have more magic defense, than plate, but plate more physical defense than chain. Plus, the stats are different as well. HP and VIT vs. STR and DEX. I am not denying that fact, but I am also not intense enough to dive into analyzing every stat on gear ... it is very complicated.

You say there is "no equation for penalty equipping something under optimal rank", this is again, 100% incorrect, and you know it. There are lvl 30's that are wearing full iron plate, and have 50 less defense than I had. The gear most definitely scales down if you are below optimal rank. Try it. Get a lvl 5 marauder, and equip lvl 48 plate. I guarantee you it will not be giving you the full defense value. Hell, even take your Cuirass on and off, it won't be giving you 111 defense at 32. I don't see how you are arguing for this statement.

When you are basing your overall defense vs. other people, it takes into account ALL gear, not just your plate piece(s). If they have some under leveled pants or something, their defense will be worse. If they have a different type of item, their defense is lower. If their physical level is lower, and not VIT capped (or lower VIT) their defense will be lower. Damaged equipment? You have to compare the gear on your character, not vs. others to get reliable information. Which is what I am doing. I am VIT capped, and wear basically the perfect set of armor based on testing ... I have yet to meet anyone with more defense or HP than I have at my exact level.

Overall, I do think this equation is slightly off. It held very true in the 1-25ish range, but I think it is a little over-zealous in the defense hits on the example I have in this post. I believe I saw slightly higher defense values on the Cuirass when equipping the gear at 32-34. So it could be better. I forgot to record my results and compare, but I can do it on my current set-up and see how it does. Also, in game, everything seems to be rounded up and down. I am not sure which way it goes, if it takes your total defense and then rounds it? Or if it rounds each piece you equip, then adds it up? This can easily throw the math off by 5-10 defense overall on your character.

Either way, for the HP bonus and % damage cut values of the plate armor over the chain, equipping it at 32 is probably the earliest I would go, and did the same. I am not disagreeing with your set-up, your post came after mine, but it is also a totally different situation than the one I responded to initially.

Edited, Nov 24th 2010 1:51pm by MattVid6

1. There is no take on the formula of penalty for under optimal rank known by any forumers, just to be clear. Any formula posted here is just a claim by player, and most are not tested.
For instance I have Iron Guisarme r32 and Yarzonshell Harpoon r39 at r32. Yarzonshell Harpoon equipped give me 3 more Accuracy than Iron Guisarme (Optimal r32)
Iron Guisarme - R32 - Acc 127
Yarzonshell Harpoon - R39 - Acc 145 based -> 145 - 145*(16%+4%*6) = 87
When in fact equipping it, it gives me 130 Accuracy. Big hole in your formula, really. Well you may claim that there's a big difference between the formula for Armour and the formula for Weapon, but this clearly show that the scale down penalty is not as big as everyone have previous thought, so unless you've tested it vigorously yourself please do not say someone is an idiot etc.

2. Haubergeon type always have higher Magic Def than Cuirass type. They are two different types of gears, of course if you compare Magic Def or Evasion Cuirass lose out here. But what is more important at the moment as a "tank"? Hp and Def IMO, which is clearly in favour of Cuirass.

3. Race, class, attribute does not in anyway affect what you see in the attribute windows in areas such as Def, Mag Def, Evasion or Resilience.

Edited, Nov 24th 2010 6:22pm by Khornette

So I've done more testing:

Dodoskin Skirt r27 vs Leather Skirt r37 at r32
No change except Leather skirt give 1 more mag def. Yes, Hp bonus is the same, +20 Hp both.

Yarzonshell Harpoon has 6 more accuracy -> Acc 133 (8%) better than I initially remembered
Atk = 104 -> 26% penalty

Bronze Haubergeon - def 287 eva 101 mg def 198 hp 1679
Bronze Cuirass - def 290 eva 99 mg def 196 hp 1713 -> 3 more def 2 less eva 2 less mg def 34 more hp

Can I have 50k refund on that useless Hauby I just bought?

Conclusion: Your formula has just been debunked.

Edited, Nov 24th 2010 6:37pm by Khornette

Since when did I even argue about r23 Hauby vs Cuirass? I was commenting on where did he pull that miraculous formula from.
And what if there's a r32 Cuirass? Please, Equip is scaled down but not scaled up, if you have a r32 Cuirass it will give better DEF than r32 Hauby for sure. And increased durability wear is another myth, in fact the Cuirass wears down slower than the Hauby because it has more durability.

I guess you guys totally skipped over my previous post.

Your equation that you made for defense is wrong MattVid6 - 16% and 4% just doesn't work.. I clearly posted that Bronze Cuirass has 2 more Physical Def @ level 23 than a Bronze Hauby. Your equation just doesn't fit with that - which means it's wrong.

Just because you did testing at one level, doesn't make it true to all levels. It's the same as when people were making forumlas for stat caps - there isn't one - the +4 and +2 are patterned, but nothing you can make a (simple) forumla out of.

As for armour wear rate - this is a myth to me.. as I have worn the Bronze Cuirass at level 21-23 for weeks.. and it's less than 10% worn. I do level 20 and 30 battle leve's and a few faction leves.. I do play Gladiator quite often, I just level slow cause grinding is boring. Same goes for the Bronze Hauby on Maurader.. I have had it for better part of a month (level 1-16) and it's still only 13% worn.

I absolutely agree with the OP when it comes to weapons (accuracy and attack) but for armour, it's absolutely situational to the different type of armour you put on. Try both types, look at the stat pages and decide what's better from there.
Oh, and I haven't checked this since the update.. things may have changed for all I know.

I just tried it on 22, and the equation doesn't work, so I will have to mess with it more at the higher levels. You also have to figure the bonus Vitality is working in some defense at well, so it isn't a fair comparisson, really. I have no clue how much defense VIT gives.

Edited, Nov 29th 2010 7:40pm by MattVid6

Armor on Gladiator wears a lot slower, cause your Shield is taking all the damage.
I've been wearing Rank 27 Equip since Rank 25-32 and only repaired it once so far...

Ask DoW classes that get the damage counted on their armor only...they need repairs every few days.

Untill recently, I was one of those dumbass noobs who was running around with an ash macuahuitl at 20. The problem is, you can equip any piece of gear at any level for any job. So at first glance, one look at the stats of a piece of gear will make you drool, buy, equip. TBH I still dont fully understand how the stats of equiped gear are calculated to reflect your rank even after reading this thread, but I know from using weapons higher than my rank that i do less damage and durability drops REAL quick. FACT. There is little but experience to help players understand how the sytem works.

It would seem that common sense would tell players to wear gear of the suitable rank, but without knowing the reasons why, higher level gear with higher stats seems better at first glance, and I think its an acceptable mistake for people to make. I am no fool and I spent a lot of gil on gear which is essentialy useless for another ten ranks.

[EDIT] Another problem, is even if you identify what weapon or armor you need for your rank, there is no guarentee you will find one available to buy, and you may not be able to craft one yourself. Sometimes, you have to use whatever is available.

Edited, Dec 8th 2010 5:51am by IzanagaAsura

Edited, Dec 8th 2010 5:52am by IzanagaAsura