I did my first raid using dps meters and parses tonight in Star Wars. I had some mixed feelings about it.
In WoW I raided around top 100 - 300 US, with some top 50 world kills. As a top end raider DPS meters, parses & logs are an important tool. Who was doing the most dps on the add that needed to be burned & who wasn't, what killed the tank, how long did the person go without a heal? I could catch errors, show exactly what happened and coach raiders & fix strats to ensure success on tightly tuned content. This is very important and what distinguishes top end guilds from those that mere try to mash a square peg into a round hole attempt after attempt and hope to get lucky and down a boss.
Of course, there are a large portion of players who are unable to use a DPS meter for anything other than e-peen measurements. (As a sidenote, we saw a lot of recruits who wanted to be top end and did stupid things to push dps meters and then fell apart on fights that required quick switches and add control for dps or controlled dps /facepalm)
We used Mox & Ask Mr Robot, and there was some decent info, such as dps uptime, damage but it lacked a recount or world of logs type level of detail so in the end I was almost happier not knowing how each individual ranked.
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DPS MetersFollow
Bode - 90 Holy Paladin - Lightbringer
I wouldn't mind stat meters. I would give nearly anything to not have damage meters available.
Atm, threat meters are completely unnecessary, due to taunt mechanics. DPS meters, when used wisely, are a great tool. But due to the rampant insipidity of the gaming community, few understand how to use them properly. They are not bad themselves, but it would be a terrible blow for them to be implemented.
Atm, threat meters are completely unnecessary, due to taunt mechanics. DPS meters, when used wisely, are a great tool. But due to the rampant insipidity of the gaming community, few understand how to use them properly. They are not bad themselves, but it would be a terrible blow for them to be implemented.
gbaji wrote:
It'll be close, but Romney has the momentum.
The damage has already been done with parsing. We now have min/max theorycrafting happening and soon there'll be cookie cutter specs for everything. Might as well implement DPS meters so people can optimize their rotations while playing.
Personally, I don't give a rat's rear. I know I'm out-DPS'ing (is that even a word?) most people in Flashpoints, regardless of my spec and class. Not bragging, but if eight years of WoW has given me anything, it's a feeling for how "well" I'm playing.
Personally, I don't give a rat's rear. I know I'm out-DPS'ing (is that even a word?) most people in Flashpoints, regardless of my spec and class. Not bragging, but if eight years of WoW has given me anything, it's a feeling for how "well" I'm playing.
Please "talk up" if your comprehension white-shifts. I will use simple-happy language-words to help you understand.
No reason to implement them.
For one, meters lead to people obsessing over their damage at the expense of all else. When there's a constant reminder that taking another action will make your meter fall, you don't want to. TOR is a game that, so far, encourages CC quite nicely, particularly since tanks just aren't designed to hold every mob in the pack. Meters will just exacerbate the CC issue (that people don't want to bother using it) even more.
Plus, there's the meter spam. I get why people do it. When my Mage's boss fight DPS was 15k in Wrath because we had such strong CDs, yeah--I loved it. But I wasn't going to tell everyone else I was contributing more than them. And I sure as hell wasn't going to link my meters. Other people often don't have that prohibition. If someone is performing badly enough that you'd need to call them out on it (constructively, I hope), you can probably tell that just by watching them for a little while. Not in an Op, no, but certainly in a FP. And I'm guessing you won't be taking the time to teach them how to play in an 8-16 man.
These aren't problems with meters, they are problems with the gaming community. But we won't be changing them any time soon, and I don't see any particular pro to implementing meters that could make up for these.
For one, meters lead to people obsessing over their damage at the expense of all else. When there's a constant reminder that taking another action will make your meter fall, you don't want to. TOR is a game that, so far, encourages CC quite nicely, particularly since tanks just aren't designed to hold every mob in the pack. Meters will just exacerbate the CC issue (that people don't want to bother using it) even more.
Plus, there's the meter spam. I get why people do it. When my Mage's boss fight DPS was 15k in Wrath because we had such strong CDs, yeah--I loved it. But I wasn't going to tell everyone else I was contributing more than them. And I sure as hell wasn't going to link my meters. Other people often don't have that prohibition. If someone is performing badly enough that you'd need to call them out on it (constructively, I hope), you can probably tell that just by watching them for a little while. Not in an Op, no, but certainly in a FP. And I'm guessing you won't be taking the time to teach them how to play in an 8-16 man.
These aren't problems with meters, they are problems with the gaming community. But we won't be changing them any time soon, and I don't see any particular pro to implementing meters that could make up for these.
gbaji wrote:
It'll be close, but Romney has the momentum.
They could implement a limited DPS meter. One that only shows your personal DPS, giving you a sense of how you're doing (compared to previous runs or expected output).
Don't get me wrong, I'm all for limiting the DPS obsession, but I honestly believe the damage has already been done.
Don't get me wrong, I'm all for limiting the DPS obsession, but I honestly believe the damage has already been done.
Please "talk up" if your comprehension white-shifts. I will use simple-happy language-words to help you understand.
Mazra wrote:
They could implement a limited DPS meter. One that only shows your personal DPS, giving you a sense of how you're doing (compared to previous runs or expected output).
Don't get me wrong, I'm all for limiting the DPS obsession, but I honestly believe the damage has already been done.
Don't get me wrong, I'm all for limiting the DPS obsession, but I honestly believe the damage has already been done.
I just had a vision of personal dps meters being spammed in /ops while loot rolls were happening and I died a little inside.
On the hopeful side I tagged along with a guild that needed range deeps for HM EV. The only fight we parsed was Soa, which is probably the fight where dps meters are the most useless as there are so many switches and dps down times such as moving between levels & switching to mind traps for melee. The people in the guild all recognized this which was good to see.
Bode - 90 Holy Paladin - Lightbringer
bodhisattva wrote:
Mazra wrote:
They could implement a limited DPS meter. One that only shows your personal DPS, giving you a sense of how you're doing (compared to previous runs or expected output).
Don't get me wrong, I'm all for limiting the DPS obsession, but I honestly believe the damage has already been done.
Don't get me wrong, I'm all for limiting the DPS obsession, but I honestly believe the damage has already been done.
I just had a vision of personal dps meters being spammed in /ops while loot rolls were happening and I died a little inside.
On the hopeful side I tagged along with a guild that needed range deeps for HM EV. The only fight we parsed was Soa, which is probably the fight where dps meters are the most useless as there are so many switches and dps down times such as moving between levels & switching to mind traps for melee. The people in the guild all recognized this which was good to see.
I'm not experienced with "top" guilds myself but I can imagine that they are in general more disciplined and hence sensible about such things. It is the casual grouping/raiding game that suffered most from the e-peen effect.
Personally I liked the ability to evaluate my own performance but I can live without it. There is already enough elitism creeping in that I don't expect to do 50s flashpoints so it doesn't really affect me in the slightest.
Wherever I go - there I am.
bodhisattva wrote:
I just had a vision of personal dps meters being spammed in /ops while loot rolls were happening and I died a little inside. 
It will be glorious!*
But yeah, not really.
*Bonus points if you know the reference (hint: Imperial side).
Please "talk up" if your comprehension white-shifts. I will use simple-happy language-words to help you understand.
Cobra101 wrote:
bodhisattva wrote:
Mazra wrote:
They could implement a limited DPS meter. One that only shows your personal DPS, giving you a sense of how you're doing (compared to previous runs or expected output).
Don't get me wrong, I'm all for limiting the DPS obsession, but I honestly believe the damage has already been done.
Don't get me wrong, I'm all for limiting the DPS obsession, but I honestly believe the damage has already been done.
I just had a vision of personal dps meters being spammed in /ops while loot rolls were happening and I died a little inside.
On the hopeful side I tagged along with a guild that needed range deeps for HM EV. The only fight we parsed was Soa, which is probably the fight where dps meters are the most useless as there are so many switches and dps down times such as moving between levels & switching to mind traps for melee. The people in the guild all recognized this which was good to see.
I'm not experienced with "top" guilds myself but I can imagine that they are in general more disciplined and hence sensible about such things. It is the casual grouping/raiding game that suffered most from the e-peen effect.
Personally I liked the ability to evaluate my own performance but I can live without it. There is already enough elitism creeping in that I don't expect to do 50s flashpoints so it doesn't really affect me in the slightest.
The trick is to find yourself an active, but casual, guild. You'll certainly be able to do hardmode FPs, at least, and even the story modes for Ops.
If the goal of your group is to see the content, not flex their epeen, it'll be fine.
gbaji wrote:
It'll be close, but Romney has the momentum.
While there are certainly some gearchecks in Operations, I don't see anything that is really "difficult" enough to cause a need for DPS meters. Maybe as they implement more DPS races as a form of difficulty, like Blizzard does, we'll need them, but there don't seem to be many fights where it's like "your DDs have to be pushing at least 10k DPS each or we lose".
Personally, I like it this way, where boss fights are more about the mechanics than pure gearchecks. But, I'll admit that if you make the bosses more of a gearcheck it prolongs the endgame content. WoW lives and dies by this. You typically have to farm one or two bosses to get gear to be able to beat the next one, etc. With less forgiving droprates, it keeps people grinding the same dungeons for months to progress. It's artificial difficulty, but that's what seems to keep the "hardcore" raiders hooked, rather than burning through the content and unsubbing until the next content update.
Personally, I like it this way, where boss fights are more about the mechanics than pure gearchecks. But, I'll admit that if you make the bosses more of a gearcheck it prolongs the endgame content. WoW lives and dies by this. You typically have to farm one or two bosses to get gear to be able to beat the next one, etc. With less forgiving droprates, it keeps people grinding the same dungeons for months to progress. It's artificial difficulty, but that's what seems to keep the "hardcore" raiders hooked, rather than burning through the content and unsubbing until the next content update.
Banh
Spoonless wrote:
While there are certainly some gearchecks in Operations, I don't see anything that is really "difficult" enough to cause a need for DPS meters. Maybe as they implement more DPS races as a form of difficulty, like Blizzard does, we'll need them, but there don't seem to be many fights where it's like "your DDs have to be pushing at least 10k DPS each or we lose".
Personally, I like it this way, where boss fights are more about the mechanics than pure gearchecks. But, I'll admit that if you make the bosses more of a gearcheck it prolongs the endgame content. WoW lives and dies by this. You typically have to farm one or two bosses to get gear to be able to beat the next one, etc. With less forgiving droprates, it keeps people grinding the same dungeons for months to progress. It's artificial difficulty, but that's what seems to keep the "hardcore" raiders hooked, rather than burning through the content and unsubbing until the next content update.
Personally, I like it this way, where boss fights are more about the mechanics than pure gearchecks. But, I'll admit that if you make the bosses more of a gearcheck it prolongs the endgame content. WoW lives and dies by this. You typically have to farm one or two bosses to get gear to be able to beat the next one, etc. With less forgiving droprates, it keeps people grinding the same dungeons for months to progress. It's artificial difficulty, but that's what seems to keep the "hardcore" raiders hooked, rather than burning through the content and unsubbing until the next content update.
And then complaining that there's not enough content.
I swear that mindset drives me nuts. I have so many discussions with friends of mine about vanilla WoW, and how things "mattered" more back then (according to them) because stuff is handed out like candy in WoW now. Granted, things are markedly easier, but at least half of their "good" memories come from the artificial rarity of certain items. One friend has four halves of the bracers needed to get a Thunderfury. The two right halves are on his horde warrior, and the two left halves are on his alliance paladin, both on separate servers. He put the work in to get those bracers, running MC, BWL, AQ, Naxx, the whole shebang, main tanking the entire time, yet he never saw the light of day as it were.
And I try to explain to them, it's artificial difficulty! It's not *hard* to get those things per se, it just takes time. And most importantly, you can be the best raider with the best raid group in the world and NEVER see those items, despite all your hard work. The model of today (and a much more effective model) is consistent work resulting in an eventual, guaranteed reward. And I really hope Bioware avoids the trap of artificial difficulty via dps/gear check bosses that WoW had in spades.
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WoW is a weird place right now in terms of gear vs end game.
In Vanilla or TBC you had a tier with gear checks involved which causes some farming in order to kill end bosses. T4 as an example, Kara 10 man raids giving T4 equivalents. Gruul as the first 25 man raid with a DPS check to make sure you had farmed Kara enough & then Magtheridon who was a co-ordination check/dps check.
In WotLK & Cata you had Normal/HM gear. Normal gear is no longer balanced around normal content, it is there for you to push HM's in. HM content gear vastly Overpowers the next tiers normal content, so when new content is release you push through it in a single week with no contest and get gear for the next set of HM's. It seems like that balance needs to be fixed & hopefully LFR can be the new normal and Normal can actually present a challenge to mid level raid guilds.
That being said, I like having multiple levels of difficulty so everyone can experience the content and have fun. Back when Funwell Plateau was out we were the only guild alliance side to make any headway in it and we got stonewalled at Mu'ru, with a pity Kil'jaeden kill when 3.0 hit. I think the raid progression tracking at the time showed that only 0.3% of raiders had made it to Mu'ru. Which while an e-peen flex is really just wasted content. That being said, downing Vashj with one priest smite spamming left alive, clearing ToC tribute to insanity world 36th, killing Lich King 25 HM before Cata will all "mean more" because of the effort put in as a group and explosion on vent when we downed the content. /shrug
In Vanilla or TBC you had a tier with gear checks involved which causes some farming in order to kill end bosses. T4 as an example, Kara 10 man raids giving T4 equivalents. Gruul as the first 25 man raid with a DPS check to make sure you had farmed Kara enough & then Magtheridon who was a co-ordination check/dps check.
In WotLK & Cata you had Normal/HM gear. Normal gear is no longer balanced around normal content, it is there for you to push HM's in. HM content gear vastly Overpowers the next tiers normal content, so when new content is release you push through it in a single week with no contest and get gear for the next set of HM's. It seems like that balance needs to be fixed & hopefully LFR can be the new normal and Normal can actually present a challenge to mid level raid guilds.
That being said, I like having multiple levels of difficulty so everyone can experience the content and have fun. Back when Funwell Plateau was out we were the only guild alliance side to make any headway in it and we got stonewalled at Mu'ru, with a pity Kil'jaeden kill when 3.0 hit. I think the raid progression tracking at the time showed that only 0.3% of raiders had made it to Mu'ru. Which while an e-peen flex is really just wasted content. That being said, downing Vashj with one priest smite spamming left alive, clearing ToC tribute to insanity world 36th, killing Lich King 25 HM before Cata will all "mean more" because of the effort put in as a group and explosion on vent when we downed the content. /shrug
Bode - 90 Holy Paladin - Lightbringer
I just hate when stats inflate so much per tier. That's one of the things I've been liking about TOR. I feel more powerful at level 50, but not completely isolated from when I was 37. In WoW, those were just two different worlds.
Of course, as stats slowly increase with new content, that will become less and less the case. So I guess one of the things I like is the new game feel?
Of course, as stats slowly increase with new content, that will become less and less the case. So I guess one of the things I like is the new game feel?
gbaji wrote:
It'll be close, but Romney has the momentum.
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