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#1 May 02 2012 at 11:22 AM Rating: Good
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I was looking at loot on Torhead and some of the items for tankassins have glance rating on them, like this. What the heck is glance rating?

Also, is there a way to link Torhead items like you can do with Wowhead items where you can mouse over the link and the item shows up?
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#2 May 02 2012 at 1:38 PM Rating: Good
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It was either removed in a Beta build, or it became shield chance. Either way, you don't need to worry about it. Anything listing it is out of date.
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#3 May 02 2012 at 2:43 PM Rating: Good
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
It was either removed in a Beta build, or it became shield chance. Either way, you don't need to worry about it. Anything listing it is out of date.


Well hell, a lot of the pieces I was looking at had glance rating. I guess I'll just assume they replaced it 1 for 1 with shield chance.

And why the **** does tank gear have so much **** accuracy on it?
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#4 May 02 2012 at 4:06 PM Rating: Good
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Bigdaddyjug wrote:
idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
It was either removed in a Beta build, or it became shield chance. Either way, you don't need to worry about it. Anything listing it is out of date.


Well hell, a lot of the pieces I was looking at had glance rating. I guess I'll just assume they replaced it 1 for 1 with shield chance.

And why the **** does tank gear have so much **** accuracy on it?


An excellent question. Some Accuracy is nice, but anything more than 10% is a bit of a waste for a tank, especially a 'Sin tank since so much of what you do to build aggro relies on Shock, FL and Wither. Power has better returns overall, even assuming you're not accuracy capped.
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#5 May 02 2012 at 4:23 PM Rating: Good
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Quor wrote:
Bigdaddyjug wrote:
idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
It was either removed in a Beta build, or it became shield chance. Either way, you don't need to worry about it. Anything listing it is out of date.


Well hell, a lot of the pieces I was looking at had glance rating. I guess I'll just assume they replaced it 1 for 1 with shield chance.

And why the **** does tank gear have so much **** accuracy on it?


An excellent question. Some Accuracy is nice, but anything more than 10% is a bit of a waste for a tank, especially a 'Sin tank since so much of what you do to build aggro relies on Shock, FL and Wither. Power has better returns overall, even assuming you're not accuracy capped.


The rotation I use doesn't have Thrash in it at all. I'm at the point where I'm going to move it to a side bar to make room for a skill I may actually have to use at some point.

I do use approximately 4-5 Saber Strikes every 15 seconds, which I believe is the only thing in my rotation affected by Accuracy. The rest is Wither, Shock, Force Lightning, and Discharge.
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#6 May 02 2012 at 11:58 PM Rating: Good
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Bigdaddyjug wrote:
Quor wrote:
Bigdaddyjug wrote:
idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
It was either removed in a Beta build, or it became shield chance. Either way, you don't need to worry about it. Anything listing it is out of date.


Well hell, a lot of the pieces I was looking at had glance rating. I guess I'll just assume they replaced it 1 for 1 with shield chance.

And why the **** does tank gear have so much **** accuracy on it?


An excellent question. Some Accuracy is nice, but anything more than 10% is a bit of a waste for a tank, especially a 'Sin tank since so much of what you do to build aggro relies on Shock, FL and Wither. Power has better returns overall, even assuming you're not accuracy capped.


The rotation I use doesn't have Thrash in it at all. I'm at the point where I'm going to move it to a side bar to make room for a skill I may actually have to use at some point.

I do use approximately 4-5 Saber Strikes every 15 seconds, which I believe is the only thing in my rotation affected by Accuracy. The rest is Wither, Shock, Force Lightning, and Discharge.


You're a tanksin right? Why on earth would you *not* use Thrash? Energize takes Shock and turns it into one of your best skills, not to mention allowing you to build Harnessed Darkness charges faster. Then again maybe it's a Force issue. With more defensive stats you might find more room for Thrash in place of a Saber Strike or two.
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#7 May 03 2012 at 6:35 AM Rating: Good
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Well, Sith Warrior now claims the priority list with the best theoretical dps doesn't contain thrash. But they use a hybrid spec, and it isn't clear if it has been updated for 1.2

They're also saying that Accuracy, followed by Surge, are the top two threat stats (though Accuracy only up to the cap, and you'll have over that).
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#8 May 03 2012 at 7:22 AM Rating: Good
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
Well, Sith Warrior now claims the priority list with the best theoretical dps doesn't contain thrash. But they use a hybrid spec, and it isn't clear if it has been updated for 1.2

They're also saying that Accuracy, followed by Surge, are the top two threat stats (though Accuracy only up to the cap, and you'll have over that).


I'm....not sure what to think of that.

I'll be honest, I haven't done a single Op personally, but it just doesn't make logical sense to me. Shock is a huge part of threat, as well as Wither, and you need both for Harnessed Darkness. Buffed, you'll have probably around the low 20's in crit %, so it seems like Surge at that point is a big waste since the only reliable crits you'll get getting are from Energize....which requires usage of Thrash in any kind of single-target capacity. Assassinate has a CD and is only available at sub-30% levels and Lacerate uses wayyyy too much force to be worthwhile against anything less than three mobs, and Assassins have plenty of aoe aggro potential between Dark Discharge and Wither, both of which should be used on CD+3 and CD+6s at least.

I'm curious as to what hybrid spec they're running. Is it a threat-based spec? Maybe they grab Death Field for extra AoE....but why not just get Wither in the first place, since it builds Harnessed Darkness....

I can see the logic behind *some* accuracy, but Force-based attacks have a 100% chance to hit, so unless there's some kind of huge acc disparity on Op's bosses then my only response to this is that my head is full of f*ck.

Lemme explain my thinking here....Accuracy really only benefits attacks classed as Melee or Ranged, of which the Assassin has about five baseline (Thrash, Strike, Assassinate, Lacerate and Maul). Maul is useless as a tanksin, Assassinate has a % health req, Lacerate is only good for 3+ mobs at a time, and Strike (or whatever the baseline saber attack is called) is only used as filler to let force regen. That leaves Thrash (or Voltaic Slash if you go deep Deception, which replaces Thrash). So, assuming Thrash has been removed from a rotation (quick Q, is that theoretical rotation for dps or tanking? Cause if it's for DPS, then that makes sense, since VS replace Thrash for Deception 'sins) then that means you're only melee attacks will be Assassinate and Strike. But why stack a stat that has almost no effect on the skills you're supposedly using the most of?

Along that line, why Surge? Again, assuming tanksin here, the only guaranteed crit you get is from Energized, and that is only reliably procced via Thrash. So why remove Thrash, then stack a stat that only is of benefit when you use Thrash a lot???

Again....my head is full of f*ck @.@

Incidentally Digg, I started Ch. 2 on my Shadow today and....I can see what you mean when you said earlier that you were tired of having a ship full of diplomats. I just landed on Balmorra and I already want to jettison the lot of them out an escape hatch.
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#9 May 03 2012 at 8:00 AM Rating: Good
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Thrash is a force hog. I can do a Thrash-less rotation and create more threat and I only have to use Saber Strike as filler when Wither and Shock are both on CD. I rarely ever have to use Saber Strike to regen force.

The sithwarrior.com tankassin thread has been updated for 1.2 and the Thrash-less rotation is for a 31/0/10 spec and it works great. I can also vary it up a little too depending on whether I am fighting a single target or a group to either get more Withers or more Shocks.

Basically I keep Wither, Shock, and Discharge on CD as much as possible instead of just using Wither and Discharge to keep the debuff up. And yes, this is a tanking rotation with the 31/0/10 spec I alluded to above. Rememebr, not only does Wither proc a Harnessed Darkness stack, it also does as much damage as a non-crit Shock and it can hit multiple targets in an AOE situation. This way I also get to use Force Lightning more often which means more DPS/threat and more effective health from the 12% healing a fully channeled Foce Lightning gives.

Edited, May 3rd 2012 9:09am by Bigdaddyjug
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#10 May 03 2012 at 8:25 AM Rating: Good
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[EDIT] Response to Quor, which took a while because I had to drive my roommate somewhere in between. [/EDIT]

It would be nice if they'd just stop criticizing everything I do. Last I checked, I was the one saving all your worlds, no STFU.

You should make note of which ones you like/dislike, btw. I took a pretty long break that made me forget two of their personalities, which led to something somewhat unfortunate to my experience at the very end of Chapter 3. You don't need to keep a tally or anything, just get a sense for their distinct characters.

That said, I actually really like Tai Cordan, though. He's welcome on my ship. The rest of them are seconds away from being decoy targets for space missions.

As for the mechanics...

The compendium recommends 27/0/14 for early Op tanking, and 31/0/10 later on. The reasoning seems to be that Force in Balance front-loads threat by doing more damage per cast than Slow Time, as well as giving double/instant force lifts. When you get into the higher operations, your defenses will probably matter more--your group probably is listening regarding kill orders, and the mobs will be doing enough damage that the 5% or so heal from FiB just won't cut it.

They also say that FiB is better for add tanking, which I imagine would be more important for the ops/FPs you aren't used to running, or are running with a pug. As for why they drop Thrash, it SEEMS to be because the long-term force management is easier without it.

Accuracy to cap has always been a good investment for tanks. Yeah, threat per second might go down over something else, but there's something to be said for guaranteed threat where you want it, when you need it.

As for Surge... IDK.

The SWTOR boards Shadow compendium just plugs the 31/0/10 build, though, so I'm guessing that's more or less standard. I'm just going to assume that the minimal gains of FiB are theoretical enough to make it a moot issue, really.

Thrash isn't found in any of the guides, atm, except for when you are worried about force capping. There seems to be two schools of thought.

One, Thrash itself is pretty useless--the basic strike does comparable threat, and doesn't cost Force. The Energize procs are really all it has going for it.

So is it better to Thrash for a chance to get a proc on an ability you might not even have the force to use (because you used it thrashing, or simply can't sustain that anyway), or is it better to have guaranteed threat with a priority list that knocks thrash out? Particularly with regards to wither/slow time--much better to toss it out on CD instead.

Both seem to be doing fine in endgame, but tanking is usually a field that really favors guarantees.

I'm not seeing anything else on stats. There's currently no reason to gear for threat, so the value of them doesn't really matter. Most just suggest switching out accuracy mods until you are right around 8% (since you'll spend a fair amount of time using melee attacks, and guaranteed threat is nice), then the rest should go to defensive stats.

Edited, May 3rd 2012 10:26am by idiggory
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#11 May 03 2012 at 9:06 AM Rating: Good
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Oh, another thing. I bought the entire Recruit Survivor's set last night. HP went up 1500, defense stayed the same, shield and absorption went up a good bit, and my DPS went up. I also now won't be dead weight in any WZ I join.
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#12 May 03 2012 at 9:42 AM Rating: Good
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But if you're not supposed to use Thrash, at all, why does the standard build include Energize? I get that you need to spend 30 points in Darkness to get Wither, but picking up Energize seems like even more of a waste of talent points than the Tier 2 talents.
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#13 May 03 2012 at 9:59 AM Rating: Good
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I use thrash in pvp because getting a chain shock proc on an energized shock with Recklessness up is @#%^ing money.

Edited, May 3rd 2012 12:00pm by Spoonless
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#14 May 03 2012 at 10:25 AM Rating: Good
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Mazra wrote:
But if you're not supposed to use Thrash, at all, why does the standard build include Energize? I get that you need to spend 30 points in Darkness to get Wither, but picking up Energize seems like even more of a waste of talent points than the Tier 2 talents.


Look at the spec I linked up above. No Energized.
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#15 May 03 2012 at 11:14 AM Rating: Good
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If Shock/Project weren't so expensive, or if the skill made a procced one free, it might be great.

But Double Strike/Thrash do pretty pathetic damage and cost a ton of force. Seriously, with the appropriate talents DS costs 23 Force.

Slow Time costs 30, Force Breach costs 20, Ward costs 10, Saber Strike is free (and doesn't really do that much less damage), Telekinetic Throw costs 30, Spinning Strike costs 25, Whirling Blow costs 40 (but hits 5 targets instead of 1), Project costs 39.

Double Strike's an expensive ability that doesn't do good damage. 30% chance to Project sooner doesn't really matter, because the force cost of Project is too prohibitive to be using it on CD. It's fairly low on your priority list--even builds that take Particle Acceleration/Energize don't use the ability without it (meaning, the free attack is higher on the list than Project, which you only use when forced to move/go out of range). So you'd only actually be Projecting to force a crit.

That's just not a good deal. You're using an ability you wouldn't have used otherwise, to force a crit on an ability that you wouldn't use otherwise, which could have crit anyway because you probably have a fairly good crit chance. It's just not a good trade off, period.

Add in the fact that it's going to contribute to you being force starved, so you can't use your awesome abilities on CD (or closer to it), and you're definitely not going to be performing to the best of your ability.
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#16 May 03 2012 at 1:18 PM Rating: Good
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Oh, I totally get why Thrash wouldn't be on the list, I was just curious why Energize would remain if Thrash was never used. I was referring to the Jedi Shadow Handbook guide on the official forums, but it's probably just not been updated yet.

I don't mind not having to Thrash. Most boring animation ever. Whack-whack, whack-whack, whack-whack. Saber Strike looks much better.
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#17 May 03 2012 at 2:24 PM Rating: Good
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Well, it's been under a month since combat logs were made available. The guide on the o-boards makes sense from a purely logical standpoint, when approaching the talent trees without mathematical data, just not in practice.

And it may well be the case that the energize rotation puts out better theoretical dps (particularly with high surge). But you can put out sufficient threat without relying on the RNG, and without having to worry about force starvation, so it just makes sense to default to the "safer" priority listing. Why risk when it might not have any reward? It's one thing to do that as a dps, it's quite another to do it as a tank (or healer).
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#18 May 03 2012 at 3:16 PM Rating: Good
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Interesting. Still seems a bit odd to prioritize the normal attack over something else entirely, but I'm approaching this as a Jugg, where if you use the normal attack while tanking you're probably doing something wrong or else are pooling rage for a combination of better attacks that are about to come off of CD.

Also kinda tells me they'll do something with Energize/Particle Acceleration to make it actually worthwhile as a tank now that the min/maxers are out in full force.
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#19 May 03 2012 at 3:40 PM Rating: Good
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You won't have "high" surge at any point in PVE since Survivor's gear has very little of it. In PVP, the only way you'll have "high" surge is if you're wearing Stalker's gear instead of Survivor's gear. However, it really doesn't matter in PVP because you don't have a true rotation unless you find another tank dumb enough to stand there and slug it out with you.

In PVE, Saber Strike will be a small enough portion of your DPS that capping accuracy won't be a big deal. SS is just a filler for when Wither and Shock are both on cooldown. You will use at most 4 or 5 per 15 GCDs.
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#20 May 03 2012 at 3:50 PM Rating: Good
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You HAVE to use the normal attack a lot, your force regen isn't anywhere close to what it would have to be otherwise.

Slow Time takes 30 Force every 7.5 seconds. Ward is 10 Force (ideally) every 12 seconds. Force Breach is 20 Force every 15 seconds. Spinning Strike on CD is 25 Force per 6 seconds, once your enemy is below 30% health. Telekinetic Throw is 30 Force every 22.5 seconds.

So Slow Time takes 4.29 Force per second. Ward is 1.2 Force per second. Force Breach is 1.33 Force per second. TT is 1.33 as well.

That brings you to 8.15 Force per Second. Your passive regen is 10.4. Adding Double Strike is an additional 3.83 force per second. That brings your total f/s usage to 11.98 (and this is without Spinning Strike, which you will use when the target is <30% health).

So unless we are going to assume that you'll never use anything else, which you will, we've already passed the threshold of what passive regen allows. Even the ideal additional regen rate of 2/s from avoidance (which you won't actually see, because of the ICD) barely covers it.

Plus, you don't want to be force starved ever, if you can avoid it. You want to have a well handy in case you need to interrupt or stun, in case you need to lift, for when you use Project (like when you are forced to move, or you need to do some maintenance threat-raising on a ranged mob), etc.

DS just doesn't do enough to warrant including it. It just isn't enough additional damage over the standard attack, particularly when it costs the same (or more) Force than the skills that are actually useful.
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#21 May 04 2012 at 5:11 AM Rating: Good
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I'm looking at my DS vs. my Saber Strike on my Shadow, and I'm finding it hard to believe you wouldn't want to mix in even 1-2 DS's/Thrash's per 20 GCD's or so. I mean, my Shadow has 331 high end damage on Saber Strike, assuming all three hits land for max damage, while DS comes in at 257x2 at the high end, with a chance to reset/buff Project, again assuming all hits land. Being two hits means you spend 12.5 force (untalented) per hit for two 30% chances to proc Particle Acceleration (or Energize, for Sin's). Given that you can free up more force for attacks thanks to the no-cost interrupt change in 1.2, it would seem to me that utilizing PA and Energize would be something that is at least worthwhile for more than just maintaining aggro on a nearby mob that's slightly out of range.

But I guess if the parses are showing it's useless then it's useless. Hate to see that though. Which generally means that there's a design change coming down the pipe in some way.
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#22 May 04 2012 at 6:34 AM Rating: Good
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But you're still not looking at it in terms of DPF. Saber strike may only do 331 damage, but it's free. Double Strike does 257x2, but for 23 Force. That's a pathetic 22 damage per Force.

A 30% chance to add 50% damage to project doesn't counter that. Because, again, Project doesn't do enough damage to have a real place in the rotation in the first place. You only use it when you are seriously inundated with force. So it's not like you are buffing your best skill by 50%, you're buffing it just to the point where it's useful. Even WITH an Energized proc, Project isn't super high in the priority list. As in it is #7 or #9 on the SithWarrior lists, with a PA proc.

If it was a buff to Slow Time, it probably would have been worth it. But this means using a weak, expensive ability to buff another weak, expensive ability just high enough so it gets a low place on the priority list. That's just not stellar. Add in the fact that cutting it up frees up a lot of Force, and you're golden.
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#23 May 04 2012 at 6:49 AM Rating: Good
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Apparently the cutting of Thrash from your rotation/priority is fairly recent (1.2). The recommended build still looks like it's picking up Energize, but Assassinate is still in your rotation so using Shock with an Energize proc after Assassinate shouldn't be too bad. Either that, or their recommended spec isn't updated.

Anyway, I have to look at things I guess. I don't really PvE tank, and Energized Shocks seem worth it in PvP since you tend to use your mid-ranged abilities fairly often. But that's just the eyeball test.
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#24 May 04 2012 at 6:51 AM Rating: Good
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
But you're still not looking at it in terms of DPF. Saber strike may only do 331 damage, but it's free. Double Strike does 257x2, but for 23 Force. That's a pathetic 22 damage per Force.

A 30% chance to add 50% damage to project doesn't counter that. Because, again, Project doesn't do enough damage to have a real place in the rotation in the first place. You only use it when you are seriously inundated with force. So it's not like you are buffing your best skill by 50%, you're buffing it just to the point where it's useful. Even WITH an Energized proc, Project isn't super high in the priority list. As in it is #7 or #9 on the SithWarrior lists, with a PA proc.

If it was a buff to Slow Time, it probably would have been worth it. But this means using a weak, expensive ability to buff another weak, expensive ability just high enough so it gets a low place on the priority list. That's just not stellar. Add in the fact that cutting it up frees up a lot of Force, and you're golden.


I get the reasoning for it, but something about that just strikes me wrong. Talents in a tree should be useful, and it seems like PA and Energize are designed to be fairly important talents given the seeming reliance on Shock and Project for Shadow/Sin tanks. Or at least that's what the talent tree would lead you to believe.

Not that there's anything wrong with a hybrid build, just that it doesn't make sense for talents in a tree to be skipped in lieu of something else, resulting in entire moves being thrown out the window. The way I see it, the basic attack for each class should be something that you fills in the gaps during resource regen or else generates resources. It shouldn't be something that overshadows other moves, especially ones with a cost attached to them.

Like now, with the recent changes to the JK and SW trees, Sweep and Smash have taken a backseat to Strike/Assault for Vengy/Vig specced Guardians and Juggs. You get more rage in Shien form from your basic attack and deal more damage as well. Smash still has it's use for aoe damage/stun in pve and for the aoe in pvp coupled with the defense/shield piercing qualities it has as a Force attack. But it's not something you completely ignore to the point of taking it off of your bar. Smash/Sweep still see plenty of use for Vengy/Vig, just not for single-target DPS.

Something about this all just irks me, and I think it's the seeming obsolescence of two core skills. Replacing one skill with another is fine (i.e. Blade Rush/Massacre replacing Slash/Vicious Slash, or Voltaic/Clairvoyant Strike replacing DS/Thrash) but completely removing skills from your bar just screams that some change is needed, either to the skills themselves or the talents that support them.
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#25 May 04 2012 at 6:55 AM Rating: Good
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Well, it could be unintended. They've only recently implemented combat logs, and you're never going to test things in-house better than live servers will. Perhaps we'll see a boost to Thrash/Shock or a reduction in Thrash cost or something along those lines, but at the moment the numbers are showing it to not be worth it.
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#26 May 04 2012 at 8:05 AM Rating: Good
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For me, Shock does the same damage that Wither does, except Wither is obviously multi-target. My method of building 3 chargs of Harnessed Darkness is either 2 Wither/1 Shock or 2 Shck/1 Wither depending on whether I'm in a multi-target situation or single target situation. Obviously Shock costs more Force than Wither, but it gets you to a buffed Force Lightning faster and Force Lightning is your best DPS and DPF ability (unless Wither hits 4 or more targets).

In other words, Shock isn't worth using for the damage it does, but for the Harnessed Darkness proc it can give you every 4.5 seconds. Of course, don't forget that with the proper 31/0/10 spec, 3/3 Chain Shock basically increases Shock's damage by 22.5%.
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#27 May 04 2012 at 8:26 AM Rating: Good
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The talent is still useful for PVP tank specs, as Spoon has pointed out. Project is far more valuable to them than to PVE tanks, and the ability to stack it with their other buff for Burst makes it even better.

What it comes down to, I think, is that not every skill can be useful for every spec. For one, it's not fun to manage 15 attacks. That's a chore. For another, if the only difference between specs is what attacks they use more often, then things get less interesting.

Project has a clear place for PVE tanks, still. It just isn't a big part of their tank n' spank priority list. It's still extremely useful for when you need to move, attack a ranged target, kite, etc. It's great for picking up quick threat on an add.

And, honestly, that should be enough. When you think about the tank concept, they need to be focusing on maximum lightsaber mobility. They shouldn't be stopping in the middle of the fray to throw a big object. It should be a technique saved for opportune moments, primarily when your blade isn't needed for deflection. Double Strike can be rationalized in a similar way. A shadow/assassin tank has focused on using the force to bolster their defenses, and reduce the enemy's ability to penetrate them. It's not surprising that they wouldn't be focused on using their force reserves simply to bolster their lightsaber attacks--its not their focus, and it weakens their ability to defend.

To firmly ground it in lore terms, you can think of it this way:

Combat tanks have taken the Niman form they specialized in as Padawans and refined it to become something more of a Soresu variant. It specializes in deflecting lightsaber attacks and blaster bolts, and demands the user keep active control over their force, to regulate it for the sake of longevity. It has more room for force techniques than Soresu normally offers, but a much lower opportunity for lightsaber attacks. It requires the Jedi to keep their lightsaber close to their center, and constantly in motion. The double blade is great for deflecting blaster fire, but it makes counter-attacking very difficult, as the whole body must turn to do so. Therefore, Shadows generally focus on using the force to bolster their defenses, but have little to no room for anything but very practical, precision strikes. They make up for this weakness by utilizing efficient techniques like Force Slow and Force Pull to fill the gap in their style.

Infiltration Shadows have adapted their Niman style closer to Juyo (like Darth Maul)--they put heavy emphasis on movement, particularly in wide arcs, in order to throw off their opponents. It involves fast, strong strikes and targeted area swings. Double Strike is perfect for this early on--it's fast and hard. Eventually, they learn to make it better--Double Strike "becomes" Clairvoyent Strike, essentially a Double Strike that throws an enemy off guard, opening their defenses to project. They've, at that point, mastered the fast, double technique--they aren't going to revert back to a more basic style.

Balance are the true Niman users--they use a very creative style that mixes Force attacks with Lightsaber ones. They don't learn complex lightsaber techniques, nor do they focus on using it to breach enemy defenses--they mix hard-hitting lightsaber attacks and control the battle field by manipulating it with the force. It is more than enough for their needs, because they have other ways to open up an enemy--they're less dependent on controlling range or keeping their enemies on the defensive.

So, really, it makes perfect sense. As Combat Shadows focus more and more on refining their defensive style, they use the force for attacks less and less. As Infiltration refines their aggressive style, they learn to actually use the concept of a strong, two-hit attack to breach enemy defenses. And for Balance shadows, Double Strike is more than sufficient, since they don't have the time to invest in learning the kind of techniques that would require studying a whole new Lightsaber form.
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#28 May 04 2012 at 8:34 AM Rating: Good
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I use Shock a good bit when tanking, especially on boss fights where there are no adds or during a non-add phase. With the rotation I use, I have no problem holding aggro and I have more than enough Force to use Shock 4 times out of every 16-20 GCDs.
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#29 May 04 2012 at 8:37 AM Rating: Good
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Well, Shock still has a place on the tank priority list, according to MMO-Mechanics (SW). I think it's just the whole Thrash to proc Energize thing that's by the wayside. I still like Energize in PvP and I'm not sure what you'd replace it with for PvE, but I would probably still keep it for incidental procs from Assassinate.

Honestly it would make more sense as something you could get with 10 points, to go with a Madness spec.

Edited, May 4th 2012 10:38am by Spoonless
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#30 May 04 2012 at 6:45 PM Rating: Good
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No, it all makes sense, but I'm also beginning to see where some of the tanksin and shadow tank complaints are coming from, as well as why so many tank BH's cross-spec and why deep Immortals think they're underpowered.
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#31 May 05 2012 at 12:53 PM Rating: Good
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Read some posts on the O-boards about Immortals going deep Vengeance to get 4% damage reduction. Smiley: dubious
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#32 May 05 2012 at 3:07 PM Rating: Good
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Really? That's... interesting.

That would take 22 points, and leave you only 19 for the tank tree. No Guardian Strike. No Hilt Strike(!). And you have to waste a bunch of points in fairly more useless talents.

Commanding Force is a strong talent, yes-- 4% less damage, 15% less in addition during Focused Defense, and 15s off the CD of Awe.

But going full tank would get you 4% shield chance, 4% reduction to Internal and Elemental Damage, 5 more second to Enure (Last Stand equivalent), 15s off Force Push, WAY better focus generation from Soresu stance, Hilt Strike (FOUR second stun with high threat and kinetic damage), and Guardian Slash (a strong, high-threat Sunder).

Going down Vigilance gets you 20% damage reduction for 4 seconds after a Force Leap (not bad, but not game changing), buffs to Blade Storm (including a CD reduction, which doesn't matter because you'll be struggling to generate focus for it anyway), free Force Sweep (which only matters at the start of the fight, because it would have probably been free after that anyway due to a tank skill), 3% more Accuracy (completely wasted points, because you won't need it with current gear).

And you won't have any high threat abilities to pick up adds with or really give you a threat buffer, or even making the threshold too low for dps to go all out.
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#33 May 05 2012 at 6:04 PM Rating: Good
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Yeah, that's why it's being debated and crunched.

Some are also saying that Sonic Barrier (dunno what the Jedi version is called) is practically useless, which further supports the Vengeance build. The debate right now is centered around testing it some more. It was previously believed that Sonic Barrier was absorbing a four-digit amount and that it scaled. Tests conducted with and without armor seem to indicate that it does not scale and that it absorbs half the amount they thought it did.

From what I've read, the average seems to be around 800 damage absorbed per barrier. With Force Scream's 12-second cooldown, that's an effective ~66 health per second this ability restores, which, according to raiders (I don't know what they're calling the TOR equivalents), isn't worth two skill points.

Then there's the whole discussion about the 4% shield chance. Someone ran the numbers on that skill and while I don't remember the result, I know it was less than a single digit damage reduction it provided. We're talking decimal values here.

Interesting discussions, but a part of me wish they'd never enabled combat logs. I mean, I strive to deliver the best results when I play, but I have to ask myself... did we need to know this? So what if Vengeance proves to deliver a slight advantage in terms of survivability? So what if Thrash as a Tanksin isn't supposed to be used?

Couldn't we enjoy the game before we knew all this?
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#34 May 05 2012 at 7:30 PM Rating: Good
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It was basically the same, but solely founded on hearsay. Which was both better and worse.

Looking into it, there seems to be one major issue at fault here. Taunt is WAY TOO F*CKING STRONG. And yes, that emphasis was needed.

Seems like it works by making the user's threat 130% of the character at the top of the threat chart for that mob. And it does this when the tank is at the top as well. This makes your ability to generate threat from abilities entirely irrelevant once you have a base, because you're going to be exponentially increasing it. The only issues at the moment are when you have to deal with threat wiping mobs or adds/excessive AoE.

This also renders its pitiful focus/rage generation a non issue. You're going to be using a ton of Sunders/basic strikes, and it's going to keep the mobs glued to you. Hybrids are currently getting the -4% damage taken and otherwise focusing exclusively (wherever possible) on upping their AoE threat and defense. Single target threat is a complete non-issue.

A redesign of Taunt, which is clearly DESPERATELY needed, should completely change that, and force Knights back into deep Immortal. They'd have to push out more threat to keep the mobs on them, and the hybrid build is quite poor at focus/rage generation. Add in the fact that their best ST threat builders are very deep Immortal, and the hybrid dies.


The build has some other serious issues. One is tank swapping (and I don't understand why). The other is any encounter with a threat wipe.

Otherwise, the fact that Taunt completely frees them of any need to build threat renders deep Immortal useless.
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#35 May 05 2012 at 8:49 PM Rating: Good
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Read some posts on the O-boards about Immortals going deep Vengeance to get 4% damage reduction. Smiley: dubious


Oh yeah, one of the strongest pvp and pve builds for a Jugg that wants to tank is more or less this as it provides good damage, better base survivability from talents than deep Immortal (4% to all damage vs 4% to internal/elemental) and enough control options that you're able to spoil very effectively in pvp while also putting out decent damage. Impale hits almost as hard as Crushing Blow does normally, but with the added bonus of hugely buffing VT and Scream. Meanwhile, you get Force Grip, Invincible, and enough buffs to Soresu that you can hold threat just fine against a single target, Taunt or no.

Really, the only reason to go deep Immortal is for the control and backloaded damage you get from a buffed Crushing Blow. Which has long been a criticism of deep Immortal and Defense, along with the relative uselessness of tank stats in pvp. Going deep tank as a Jugg or Guardian really focuses you narrowly, and the benefits you gain, while nice, have a hard time standing up to what you get by going deeper into Vengeance/Vigilance.
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#36 May 05 2012 at 8:49 PM Rating: Good
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Wait, wait, Taunt increases your threat rating even when you have aggro? Isn't it supposed to just force you to the top of the list?
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#37 May 05 2012 at 8:54 PM Rating: Good
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Whether or not that's what it's supposed to do remains to be seen, but it's not all it is doing. Right now, to take aggro when at range (which is actually such a big radius that you have to be inside most mobs to be considered in melee range), you need to do 130% of the tank's threat.

But, right now, the tank can increase his threat by 30% every 15 seconds (plus 30% every 45 seconds).

Before 1.2, deep Immortal was more attractive than it was now (though it had the same issues, and hybrids definitely existed). 4% shield chance was significant because of the high DR on the shield stat (or so I understand). 1.2 brought higher shield chances, which led to a decreased value on the shield chance talent.
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