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(Mage) Why Chloro/Warlock? and Archon or Dominator?Follow

#1 Apr 16 2011 at 8:13 PM Rating: Decent
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So the subject kinda says it all. Why are most mage healing builds coupled with Warlock? And when it comes down to the third one, Archon or Dominator? I know Archon is good at buffing the party, while dominator is good at debuffing the enemies, but unless you went Chloro/archon or chloro/dominator, you wouldn't get deep enough in the tree for it to matter, right?

So far, from my experiments in chloro, it doesn't couple well with any other offensive build, or am I just doing it wrong? haha
#2 Apr 16 2011 at 8:17 PM Rating: Good
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Primarily for the first 10 points in warlock you get increased charge generation and a chance of instant spellcast procs.. not too shabby for 10 points.

For the third I'd probably say Archon's a good choice, though Dom's solid too in the support role, just a different type of support
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#3 Apr 16 2011 at 8:29 PM Rating: Decent
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so would a build involving 10 in warlock (i'm assuming 5 to Magical affinity and 5 to opportunity?), and the rest between Chloro and Archon (mainly chloro) be a solid healing build? I'm only level 17, so I'm mainly looking for dungeon (non end game) right now.



Edited, Apr 16th 2011 7:31pm by Shalazar
#4 Apr 16 2011 at 8:57 PM Rating: Good
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That seems reasonable
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#5 Apr 17 2011 at 8:33 AM Rating: Good
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Even 0 points in Dominator gets you one of the best CCs in the game. Plus, if you go 10 into it, you pick up 10% more int. 10 points in Domi will also get you a targettable spell reflect, a cleanse, a damage relfect buff, and a mana drain. All solid tools for a Chloro to have.
#6 Apr 17 2011 at 10:44 AM Rating: Decent
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Yeah, transmography looks interesting, but I feel like Archeon might help your average group more than Dominator, but I haven't played with it much so I don't really know for sure.
#7 Apr 18 2011 at 7:53 AM Rating: Decent
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I dont see much reason to go much past 32 points in Chloro, There are great benefits to be gained by going far down the warlock tree. Being Chloro doesn't get its own armor 30 points in Warlock will get you Warlock armor and the "Improved Warlock Armor" Talents. Healing as a chloro is all about how much dmg your can do.

Wordington answers some questions in this THREAD and gives some tips about builds.
#8 Apr 18 2011 at 10:30 AM Rating: Good
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Shalazar wrote:
Yeah, transmography looks interesting, but I feel like Archeon might help your average group more than Dominator, but I haven't played with it much so I don't really know for sure.


I usually suggest Dominator as it takes less upkeep than Archon. Also, being able to take one mob out of the fight entirely is a huge advantage. A final point to consider on Dominator, it gives you a no-CD instant cast damage spell baseline. It's a huge advantage for high mobility fights. If you're not putting points in either, Dominator does more for your group baseline.

A final note on Dominator - with only 10 points in it, you can pick up an 80% threat wipe, which can really save your behind.

In a good group, archon, depending on how you spec it, will probably do more. In your average pug, however, Domi can save your life =)
#9 Apr 19 2011 at 9:12 AM Rating: Decent
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The archon buffs are pretty great and stack with all other buffs. While the soul seems to have less widespread appreciation as the bard, the role is pretty similar.
But on the note of not spending more than 32 points in chloro, I'd have to respectfully disagree... i can see around 36 points of branches that are worthwhile to max out. With 10 points in lock that leaves 20 for Archon

20points in archon would give 3 5min party auras to maintain, and you'd need to cycle in sering blood (instant cast) and a pilliaging stone to maintain your stacks during combat.
3 aura's = 12% decrease cost of skills + 10% from chloro skill, although these may not stack
and 3 auras = 6% decreased casting time... doesnt seem like much, but in a long boss fight that comes in handy.
And depending on how you put skills into archon, you would probably end up with alot of mana management, i know my healer never has to stop cause of this.

heres along the lines of my build.
[link=http://rift.zam.com/en/stc.html?t=1zvRz.xx.EdIuoVckoo.hMeoMbM]
#10 Apr 19 2011 at 9:55 AM Rating: Decent
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TheRocky wrote:
20points in archon would give 3 5min party auras to maintain, and you'd need to cycle in sering blood (instant cast) and a pilliaging stone to maintain your stacks during combat.
3 aura's = 12% decrease cost of skills + 10% from chloro skill, although these may not stack
and 3 auras = 6% decreased casting time... doesnt seem like much, but in a long boss fight that comes in handy.


I confused why people would want to put some many points into Archon, Mana isn't an issue with Empathic bond, Living Shell, and Sacrifice Life: Mana. I do like the 6% decreased cast time but Warlock has so much more to offer. Remember that the more dmg you do the more you heal. The talents of Dark Power and Improved Warlock Armor increase your dmg, which is directly effecting your Healing.If you read the Improved Warlock armor its a Strait 10% increase in Damamge you deal. This is all damage, thats really strong.

Also, I think 32 points are needed in Chloro but we different on "Call of spring" Talent. I just recently learned that it only effects Bloom and Flourish.
#11 Apr 19 2011 at 11:33 AM Rating: Decent
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dhae wrote:

Also, I think 32 points are needed in Chloro but we different on "Call of spring" Talent. I just recently learned that it only effects Bloom and Flourish.


If this is true, than the tooltip or the skill is bugged. The way it reads, any healing effect from the mage should be benefited.

And basically the reason i focus on further points into Archon cause at 20 you get Vitality of Stone, which is a pretty powerful buff for parties and raids...
The reason I'm still concerned with mana is that Living Shell and Sacrifice Life may not always be viable to use during combat, depending on bosses... their may be constant raid wide dmg, leaving empathic bond, and in those situations the tank usually doesnt take as much dmg.

So far I've never had issues with healing, and most people really enjoy the archon buffs i can provide on the side as well.
#12 Apr 20 2011 at 3:55 AM Rating: Excellent
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I was a little surprised when you said "Call of Spring" doesn't affect Lifegiving Veil heals, so I decided to test it. First, with taking 4/5 Circle of Life to get further in the tree, next taking 5/5 Call of Spring and dropping a point from "Enduring Tether" (I'm only 31 on my mage). In both cases, healing effects from LGV where 80% of damage from Nature's Touch, Ruin, and Vile Spores. Nature's Fury (AoE) healed for ~16% of the damage it dealt. Healing from Radiant Spores was also unaffected.

Going 30 points in Warlock for your second soul gives you 10% more damage (5/5 Imp Warlock Armor), another 10% more spell damage (5/5 Dark Power), 5% spell crit (5/5 Potency). No matter what your primary soul is, it seems like Warlock is the best choice for your secondary. If I was going to go Chloro/Archon/Warlock, I would go 27 into Archon for 2/2 Power In Numbers (16% Spell damage and healing with your 4 auras up). You still have 6 points left to get Sacrifice Life: Mana, and you aren't losing a lot of bonus damage (healing) from going deep into warlock.
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#13 Apr 20 2011 at 9:06 AM Rating: Decent
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Well i know what I'll be posting on the trion forums soon enough, that tooltip needs to reflect the true nature of that skill.
So basically i would go with this as my new set up.

http://rift.zam.com/en/stc.html?t=1zvRz.xb.EdIuo0ckok.hMeoMbi00M

Should be able to test it on a 50 mage in a couple of days, but I have a decent feeling that all the archon buffs will make the mage pretty similar to a deep warlock secondary, with maybe only a small decrease in dps.
#14 Apr 20 2011 at 9:59 AM Rating: Good
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Ugg this thread is making me want to play my mage more.
#15 Apr 21 2011 at 5:23 PM Rating: Good
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AstarintheDruid wrote:
Going 30 points in Warlock for your second soul gives you 10% more damage (5/5 Imp Warlock Armor), another 10% more spell damage (5/5 Dark Power), 5% spell crit (5/5 Potency). No matter what your primary soul is, it seems like Warlock is the best choice for your secondary. If I was going to go Chloro/Archon/Warlock, I would go 27 into Archon for 2/2 Power In Numbers (16% Spell damage and healing with your 4 auras up). You still have 6 points left to get Sacrifice Life: Mana, and you aren't losing a lot of bonus damage (healing) from going deep into warlock.


Wow im honestly impressed. My first thought was "No way, losing to much" but after looking at it, It seems just as viable. Personally, I would want to play the Chloro/Lock for being a Main healer. Maybe more a matter of playstyle. But right now, when i use my Chloro spec its for pad healing while still dpsing. I played a pyro/arch mix once to achieve dps while still buffing/support and got really annoyed with keeping up the buffs cause they where not my primary set of spells. I wouldnt want to be worried about it while being a primary healer but for what I use my Chloro/lock build for at the moment...this might work better. This would integrate even more support into the build while still dpsing and pad healing. My hats off you to sir, Nice mixing of souls.

@TheRocky: That build is close to what i would have but I dont think I would use Efficiency. Aside from keeping up your buffs you not casting alot of Archon spells. Also you have: Living Shell, Empathic Bond, Sac life:mana, Exhilaration, Altruit, and Leeching flames to conserve mana. I would drop one point in Mental Flare (just incase) and 1 in Rockslide (never used it but looks solid) the remaining 3 can can put anywhere. I was thinking of THIS
#16 Apr 22 2011 at 4:46 PM Rating: Decent
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For all those following the thread, I tried out the Build above for about 12 Dungeons. Personally, I didnt like it. It has great utility,it can:

Increase mobs Physical Dmg taken by 5%
Increase mobs Magical Dmg taken by 7%
Decrease Endurace
Decrease STR,DEX,WIS,INT

Increase your Grps Armor
Increase your Grps STR,DEX,WIS,INT
Increase your Grps Endurance (stacks with everything)
Increase your Grps Resist
Increase your own INT (rockslide)
Increase your grps dmg by 5% for 10sec (15sec CD- Volcanic bomb)

While all this was awesome, it took too much away from my main rotation and using life spells. It was extremely tedious. I found myself letting buffs drop a lot unless i casted them all at beginning of each battle. But if i casted them at the start of every battle I would fall behind on the healing. For primary healing, stick with the chloro/lock spec and the passive bonuses. IF your playing a support role and are not the main healer this would be a great way to buff party and dps while providing pad heals.
#17 Apr 22 2011 at 8:36 PM Rating: Decent
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This thread, although very helpful, has got my head hurting!! I'll start by thanking everyone.

so last night I had my first attempt at healing a dungeon (Iron Tomb, I was level 18 with a 17 cleric tank who it was their first time tanking and also had no taunt) and it didn't go too well. I haven't respecced yet, but after reading through these posts, I think I'll probably have to. Here is my current build (I have 6 more points to spend, as I am now level 23). Should I be going into the warlock tree now or should I wait a little longer and focus on Chlo? I'm also thinking a Chlo/warlock build with 0 dominator might be more to my play style than Arch (although I was right in how much benefit an Arch can give, so I might try it once at higher level) I just don't seem to be healing for enough. On one fight (fight with 3 elites after the second boss) I burned all my CD's, spammed everything and anything I could think of and he still died, same happened the next fight. (although I'm also thinking it could be the tank since i hear 17 really is too low for it) We got through it thanks to a 23 warrior who has no idea how to actually play the game (has a Dps tank hybrid that doesn't do either that efficiently, but he's a friend so what am I supposed to say??) taking over tanking, the cleric taking over healing (with a rogue backup), and me taking over DPS.

Am I just doing something wrong?

Edit: I just took a more detailed look into Warlock and with 30 points in (to get 5/5 imp. war. armor), taking the path to give the most passive advantages (only way I could see using it with a chloro), you get some pretty awesome abilities not only to help parties and raids, but also yourself (Neddra's Might, Sacrifice Life: Damage and Mana). So...assuming I was level 25, what do you all think of this build? I choose what I did because Neddra's Influence gives +15% DoT damage (which helps Withering Vine) and 20 points in Chloro for the ability to bring back to life.

Edited, Apr 22nd 2011 7:51pm by Shalazar
#18 Apr 23 2011 at 7:50 PM Rating: Decent
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early on chloro healing isnt the greatest, so dont be surprised if its difficult.

and for dhae, heres what i do

macro ruin, natures touch, and veiled spores to the same button (cooldowns and such work great with this) this is your dps/heal button

spell rotation is like this
before you enter combat, put up all auras
most encounters dont last over 5mins (in the dungeons i've been in)

once you enter combat cast (at any point i'll hit my dps/heal button to pop off a heal if the tank needs it)
radiant spores
withering vines
sering vitality
dark touch
and a stack of pilliging stones

now focus on healing/dps for a bit...
once you get some breathing room repeat cycle
once you have full stack and timer for pillinging stone substitute in volcanic bomb
I wouldnt include rockslide... even though the buff is nice and all, i feel it messes to much with the cycle.
For longer engagements with party wide healing, use lava field at your discretion.

i tend to use my charge on corrison and wild growth at the same time.

when my mana gets to about 30% i use leeching flames on a target that will be up for a bit and living shell at the same time.
And if i need mana again before those are ready i'll use emphathic bond and sacrafice life.

Most groups i've been with havent complained about healing and typically love having the archon buffs to make things go alot faster.
#19 Apr 24 2011 at 6:26 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Edit: I just took a more detailed look into Warlock and with 30 points in (to get 5/5 imp. war. armor), taking the path to give the most passive advantages (only way I could see using it with a chloro), you get some pretty awesome abilities not only to help parties and raids, but also yourself (Neddra's Might, Sacrifice Life: Damage and Mana). So...assuming I was level 25, what do you all think of this build? I choose what I did because Neddra's Influence gives +15% DoT damage (which helps Withering Vine) and 20 points in Chloro for the ability to bring back to life.


http://rift.zam.com/en/stc.html?t=0zvRs.xx0h.xzIuoc
I would have to say that if you were going to be using the DoTs, might as well put in the skills that makes your spells that you normally cast a DoT (again not sure if it works together, but would have to assume so). Never really found the need to take the instant blooms early on over anything else but I guess you could swap out a couple points into the living grace talent (If that one works properly?). I also would put having the int +25% better then 5% more damage since it adds damage and also lots of abilities work off maximum mana, but again could be wrong.
#20 Apr 25 2011 at 5:47 AM Rating: Excellent
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Currently, Call of Spring (Increases healing done by spells and effects by x%) is bugged to only work with Bloom and Flourish. At a minimum, I would drop points in that for Nature's Corrosion to get an extra tick of healing for Vile Spores and Ruin. Then I'd drop Neddra's Influence for Natural Infusion. An extra 75% of all your damage as tank healing is way better than 22% more damage to Withering Vines. Also, the healing on Withering Vines seems to be independent of the damage, so I'm not even sure Neddra's Influence would help beyond the 1 tick of healing from Lifegiving Veil.
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#21 Apr 25 2011 at 12:37 PM Rating: Decent
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Shalazar wrote:
Am I just doing something wrong?


Most Likely not, Group make up can make a huge difference. If people are assisting to kill as fast as possible, are people CC'ing to help control pulls, stuff like that. Bring a bard if you can, these guys make low level dungeons (when not everyone has key abilities) easy. As TheRocky said though "Dont expect it to be easy". At low levels its really hard to heal as Chloro due to the lack of key talents, but it will get easier. At level 23 I would spec like THIS. At this point you can kind of go in a direction you want. I would finish out Opportunity then back to Chloro tree till I had my 32 points in it, but its really a personal preference. I think with Natural Fusion maxed out you should no longer have a problem healing.

Naddra's Influence isn't really helping you. I wouldn't even take it. Withering Vine is a great spell but its more of an AE healing tool. I keep on up on my main target (easy to keep in a rotation) and if my take is topped off and I'm not refreshing something else i will tab around and start dropping them on extra targets. My basic rotation is:

Radient Spores
Withering Vine
Ruin, Natures Touch, Vile Spores
on same "nuke macro"
-spam my nuke macro till something drops off or my charge fills
-at full charge i make sure Radient spores is refreshed then I use Entropic Veil and then Stream of reclamation.

Bloom, Flurish, Wild Abandon, Nature's Cleansing, Natures Conversion (on casters) as needed. I don't use Dark Touch or Life leech. Only thing Im using from Warlock is Sac Life:mana. I try to work one of these in every 15 or so sec to keep my mana high. The AE healing I always tops me back off.

@TheRocky: I know the build will work, I just didnt care for it in a primary healing roll. Only needing to cast Searing Vitality and Pillaging Stone once at beginning of each combat wasn't bad. But i kept wanting to use Ashen Defense and Crumbling Resistance, I also had Volcanic bomb in my nuke macro. I was probably trying to do to much. As an off healer I do think it is a great build that can bring support and pad healing to a group.



#22 Apr 26 2011 at 1:03 PM Rating: Decent
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This discussion is great and I hope others keep contributing! I ran IT last night again, this time we 4manned it (I'm level 26, but the rest of the group was around 22) and healing went great. Of course I didn't have to worry about mana at this level, but being able to take a step back and watch myself heal and think of different situations really helped me learn better how to heal with mage. As I've been reading in other forums, mage healing is about dealing with spike damage because if you keep a basic low cost rotation, it should negate the base damage (except on bosses of course). When it comes to bosses, I had to play a more active role in healing, but even then it was a few small spells, then a big one when the tank got hit for a lot, keep up a few buffs on the boss, rinse and repeat. i'm sure it will change, but as of right now, I'm really liking how we heal. Also the fact that I can go all out at the end of a boss fight to end it bcuz I'm doing good damage really helps too. For example, the second boss in IT (The three guys) wasn't easy with only 2 DPS, so I just spammed mine, and it was no problem. Also, my big attack(I'm forgetting what it is right now) heals the tank (bcuz of synthesis) for over 1000, which is awesome considering tanks around level 25 only have about 2500HP or so! Also, the tank was a cleric who cast something on the Off tank (just happened to have one) to where if I over healed, it healed him, which made bad pulls easy to heal, too!

Again thanks all, keep allowing me to soak up the knowledge you all have!
#23 Apr 26 2011 at 4:14 PM Rating: Decent
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Glad you like it. Sadly from just my regular parsing of runs, it isnt too uncommon to be near the top of regular DPS early on in the game for at least up to DSM. I mean it's kinda annoying to see a regular person pulling 40 DPS when you are over 100.
#24 Apr 26 2011 at 8:02 PM Rating: Decent
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@Dhae So stemming from what you've said, I've made it this far in my build (assuming I was level 32, which I'm not far off!)Here, assuming going 5/5 in opportunity then filling out the rest of the Chloro tree.

After this, I'm thinking my level 50 build will look like This. After completing the warlock tree, I maxed out Natural awareness, 2 to enduring tether, and 1 in raised in nature with my remaining points. Does this look like a good build? I don't see anything that I'm missing, but please critique!

Also, speaking of tracking DPS, can you link me to how it's done?

Edited, Apr 26th 2011 7:14pm by Shalazar
#25 Apr 26 2011 at 9:10 PM Rating: Decent
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I don't get why youre not taking nature's corrosion? I don't remember the link from the other topic but it is a healthy increase to the healing from ruin and vile spores.

Much better then an endurance increase. The bloom instants are kinda bleh early on too, I don't think ive had to cast it very often at all or at least not enough to make it worth taking it over that other talent
#26 Apr 27 2011 at 6:25 AM Rating: Decent
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Shalazar wrote:
Does this look like a good build? I don't see anything that I'm missing, but please critique!


Right now Call of Spring doesnt work as the tooltip says, it only effects Bloom and Flouish. Not a bad talent but you will get more out of Nature's Corrosion. The Math behind both of these talents can be found on an old thread HERE.

This is the BUILD I would use until they change Call of Spring, if they ever do. you still have 2 Free points to spend.

Now you don't need Neddra's Essence, Shadow Life, or Choke; but for 2 talents all 3 of these abilities are worth it to me. So thats 2 more points you can have if you want to move them around. Also I have a point in Enduring Tether, I don't think I have ever used it right off cooldown so this is kind of wasted. You can put this point anywhere. I think Circle of life can be a useful cause while I don't use Bloom and Flourish a lot; When I do need them having them crit would be nice.


Also you mentioned mana, Not sure if you where saying it was an issue but it shouldnt be. If so, work in Sac Life:Mana more often.

EDIT: Dominator is probably your best 3rd soul. But if find yourself grouping a lot with guildies or friends and don't need the CC, I found Archmage nice for the ability to break stuns and CC.



Edited, Apr 27th 2011 8:27am by dhae

Edited, Apr 27th 2011 8:28am by dhae
#27 Apr 27 2011 at 10:40 AM Rating: Decent
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@Sadboosh at first, I didn't take Natures Corrosion because I read it wrong (oversight on what exactly it did) and

@dhae I also, when making that build, forgot Call of Spring didn't work on all healing, I was doing that build so fast I forgot everything this thread talked about!

So I've fixed my build for level 46 to look like This, by level 50 I should know where to put the extra points.
#28 Apr 27 2011 at 3:56 PM Rating: Decent
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Put a 32nd point in Chloro for Living Energy, less times you need to Sac life:Mana is always sexy. Plus, it works on the group so your rogues and warriors will be using less Energy/power which means more dps and faster kills.

I would do this right after the 31 point and before i started deep into the Warlock soul.
#29 May 07 2011 at 2:39 AM Rating: Decent
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I would aim at this for 48 (minor tweaks to your 46 spec): http://rift.zam.com/en/stc.html?t=0zvRs.xx0V0Vqxo.EdIuo0czRo

You're very close to the warlock survival cooldowns and you pug a lot, so I'd recommend grabbing them. If you were always running with good tanks/dps/etc, go ahead and skimp on the points, but it's not like they're going to be doing you a ton of help elsewhere. You can also drop Empathic Bond without having mana problems, presumably; worked for me and most people I've seen discuss it. Living Shell is awesome, mana potions are good, and SL:Mana is always there. If you need it, of course, don't skip it. Easy!

As for the order of skilling down the trees, I wasn't in a rush to pick up the later points in chloro (I've never specced past 32 chloro, though some day I'll go 51 for science), so I stopped putting points in chloro at 24/26 until I was done with lock. Stopping at 24 (living shell and 3/3 natural fusion) or 26 (wild growth and nature's fury) get you to imp warlock armor faster, which seemed better to me than getting to corrosion/living energy/essence surge. I do love corrosion (probably too much, but it's fun!) and living energy, though I've never actually used ES in a fight. If you really want to pick them up sooner, go for it. My suggestion would have you at something like this at 32: http://rift.zam.com/en/stc.html?t=0zvRs.xx0V0c.tdIuo0cz Then here at 42: http://rift.zam.com/en/stc.html?t=0zvRs.xx0V0Vqxo.tdIuo0cz
#30 May 07 2011 at 2:47 AM Rating: Decent
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Also, I really don't care for the nt/vs macros that include ruin. Everyone can play however they'd like and this discussion has certainly been had elsewhere, but macroing ruin so that it's always on cd removes one of our few quick-response healing buttons. I cast ruin manually and probably only a dozen times per run, but every time I do it's because I need to heal faster immediately, or while I'm running out of a ground effect, to try to sneak one more heal in at the end of a pull, or even just because I'm feeling lazy at that moment. Because it's not macroed, I have those choices, which seems like a good thing.
#31 Aug 01 2011 at 9:51 AM Rating: Decent
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I have found that a group consisting of Tank/Mage/Cleric + 2 pure dps, Cleric and Mage both heal, is pretty much unstoppable.

http://rift.zam.com/en/stc.html?riftstc=1zRvs.EdIuRhckoo.xx0G0VVx.0
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#32 Sep 06 2011 at 1:26 PM Rating: Default
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If the healing is based off of damage then it would look like something like this


http://rift.zam.com/en/stc.html?t=1zvRs.xx0V0VVx.Ezcu0N00o.McV


Edited, Sep 6th 2011 3:28pm by Ajmichels88
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#33 Sep 21 2011 at 3:23 PM Rating: Good
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That's a LOT of points to throw into Warlock just to pick up Improved Warlock Armor.. you give up some pretty hefty utility from Chloro, and I'd probably say that without Living Infusion, you're probably reducing your overall healing ability
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