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Assassin vs Bladedancer movesFollow

#1 Mar 02 2011 at 12:04 PM Rating: Good
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Sorry in advance for all the text.

So, I'm playing an Assassin main with Bladedancer secondary right now. I'm up to level 28, and do a mix of solo and group play. All is going well, I enjoy the build and it's a lot of fun. However, I wanted to initiate a discussion here about the base moves of these two souls. I will discussing these moves at level 30 (since I am currently 28) and level 50 (full Assassin). Assassin gives Savage Strike as the combo builder and Final Blow as the finisher. Bladedancer gives Keen Strike and Quick Strike as the combo builders, and Deadly Strike as the finisher. At level 30, Savage Strike is Rank 7 and deals weapon plus 49 to 52 Physical damage. Keen Strike is also rank 7 at level 30 but deals weapon plus 52 to 55 Physical damage. A small difference, but worth mentioning. However, what is really worth mentioning is that after using a Keen Strike you can use Quick Strike, which at level 30 is rank 6 but does weapon plus 62 to 65 Physical damage. Furthermore, a 50% bonus from AP is applied to this attack. This puts these 2 moves leagues above using Savage Strike, despite it being the "main" assassin move (besides Backstab, which is actually almost identical to Quick Strike, and is only better because Quick Strike requires the weaker Keen Strike to be used first). The finishers at level 30 compare similarly; Final Blow (assassin) is rank 6 at this point and with 5 combo points does 251 damage. Deadly Strike is rank 7 at this point and does 283 damage at 5 combo points. I don't know if these two scale differently as far as bonus from AP (which is also dependent on combo points), but I highly doubt it (or if there is a difference, I would bet Deadly Strike would get the better benefit).

At level 50, Savage Strike is rank 10 and deals weapon plus 77 to 80 Physical damage. Keen Strike at this point does the exact same damage, also rank 10. Quick Strike is still better, however, at weapon plus 101 to 105 Physical damage plus the AP bonus. Final Blow at rank 10 deals 400 damage at 5 combo points, which is the exact same as Deadly Strike. However, at this point I would have talented Final Blow to do an extra 15% damage so that actually comes out ahead.

So what do you think? Keen Strike + Quick Strike seems the obvious choice when I'm not backstabbing, even at level 50. However, that means I'm wasting 2 talent points just to get the final ability for filling out the Assassin tree. Is it worth it?

Any other thoughts? Am I not considering something? Just wanted something to think about.
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#2 Mar 03 2011 at 7:42 PM Rating: Good
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No Twin Strike love?
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#3 Mar 04 2011 at 11:26 AM Rating: Good
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Twin strike is great when needed, but would not be a regularly used move :P.
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#4 Mar 04 2011 at 11:26 PM Rating: Decent
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Have you considered Impale for assassin? I'd imagine that would be a pretty fair single target boost for Assassin rather than straight Final Strikes.
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#5 Mar 05 2011 at 10:58 PM Rating: Good
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The problem with Impale is that it does its damage over 16 seconds. It is clearly the most damaging finisher, but not very useful for soloing because mobs just don't last that long.
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#6 Mar 14 2011 at 9:34 PM Rating: Decent
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I've been using keen/quick from the very start simply because the tooltip numbers were bigger and it seemed to be a no brainer, but lately I've started to wonder if the key to all this is the 10% crit bonus from Improved Savage Strike. In theory it seems to be this way, otherwise what is the point of Savage Strike at all?

My guess is that, over time, the improved crits from SS would add up and come out on top, making this the better choice for longer PVE encounters, but for solo and burst needs I suspect keen/quick to be the winners. Crits are nice for burst, but reliable high damage is better.

Does anyone know just how improved SS at 50 compares to Keen/Quick w/ the Blade and Fury talent?
#7 Mar 15 2011 at 8:02 AM Rating: Good
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paraella wrote:
I've been using keen/quick from the very start simply because the tooltip numbers were bigger and it seemed to be a no brainer, but lately I've started to wonder if the key to all this is the 10% crit bonus from Improved Savage Strike. In theory it seems to be this way, otherwise what is the point of Savage Strike at all?

My guess is that, over time, the improved crits from SS would add up and come out on top, making this the better choice for longer PVE encounters, but for solo and burst needs I suspect keen/quick to be the winners. Crits are nice for burst, but reliable high damage is better.

Does anyone know just how improved SS at 50 compares to Keen/Quick w/ the Blade and Fury talent?


Well, I assume Savage Strike would be useful for people who didn't take Bladedancer as a secondary soul :P.

That being said, once I hit 50 I will do some testing to see. The assassin soul definitely focuses on crits, so having that extra crit chance could be useful, but at the same time I pretty much find myself critting plenty even without it (I'm approaching 30% crit chance unbuffed at level 45)... so I just think it's inferior.

Also, while on this topic, I'm trying to decide if it's better to have +12% dexterity from the bladedancer tree or +12% AP from the riftstalker tree with this build. I feel like the dexterity would be an overall improvement, but I don't know if it would increase my damage as much (how does dexterity affect crit chance?).
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#8 Mar 15 2011 at 10:38 AM Rating: Decent
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10% crit chance is definitely the key I'd think, but it depends on how much crit you have base and how much diminishing returns affects the extra 10%.

We need to know, before this discussion has any merit at all:

1. Where in the formula the 10% is.
2. What the diminishing returns scaling is like across the relevant level spread.

Crits for an asn build fuel everything. You get the 100% 3 stacking bleed, which with expose actually does a huge chunk of damage to armored targets over time. You get 10% additional damage to everything. You can trigger even more stuff with specific equipment (crits give me 22 more crit with this one planar augment thingy) not to mention the fact that crits augment burst damage for pvp purposes even if the damage over time ends up being slightly less.
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#9 Mar 17 2011 at 8:21 PM Rating: Decent
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I switched to savage strike and am using jagged strike as an opener instead of paralyze, and it actually seems like mobs are going down a lot quicker (mostly because of jagged strike - it's hard to tell if SS is doing more with the crits than keen/quick still).
#10 Mar 18 2011 at 12:33 AM Rating: Good
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paraella wrote:
I switched to savage strike and am using jagged strike as an opener instead of paralyze, and it actually seems like mobs are going down a lot quicker (mostly because of jagged strike - it's hard to tell if SS is doing more with the crits than keen/quick still).


You probably haven't paid much attention to it, but have you noticed if you're ending the fight with more damage using jagged vs paralyze?

I'm also curious how much faster it actually kills normal mobs of your level, since a paralyze + 2 backstabs seems to do a fair amount of damage. My problem with using jagged strike is that on most mobs you won't get the benefit of all that damage because it will die too quickly, and thus you're technically doing more damage with just a normal finisher. That's just an assumption though, as I haven't tested it out.
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#11 Mar 18 2011 at 12:38 AM Rating: Good
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I'm also curious what you folks think about a slightly different full assassin build: Assassin (51) / Nightblade (10) / Bladedancer (5)

I wanted some Nightblade for the aoe ability, and the ranged incapacitate would also be useful probably. I also kind of like the extra 15% damage on combo-generating abilities and finishers from the tree. However, I can't decide if that's worth giving up going further into the bladedancer tree. I'm thinking of this being primarily an instance role, where I could regularly backstab (or use the aoe ability for large trash pulls). The main thing I'm worried about losing is the +12% dexterity, but it may be worth it. Any thoughts?


Edited, Mar 18th 2011 1:40am by Vataro
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#12 Mar 18 2011 at 12:40 AM Rating: Good
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For reference, my original build is Assassin (51) / Bladedancer (15) / Riftstalker (0) (for some reason it wouldn't let me put it in the last post with the other build link).
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