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#52 Apr 12 2014 at 11:37 AM Rating: Good
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I think there's a middle ground.

EVE is a very static sandbox from the developmental side of things. Players can do interesting things like build bases, camp gates, etc. But enemies don't. The PVE side of things remains fairly unchanged over time, because they use the same design ideas as traditional MMOs.

The hope is that devs will start building systems that allow the PVE world to actually change as well, to allow spawn locations and such to move to new geographic locations, change level ranges, expand, shrink, and allow for weaker/stronger unit types depending on what inputs affect them over time. Or, alternatively, devs need to take a REALLY active role in keeping the world fluid (which probably isn't feasible).

But you need to apply that philosophy to the PVE content as well. Technology has been a limiting factor for a long time, but things like procedurally generated dungeons shouldn't be impossible now. That alleviates a lot of design stress with regards to content production, because small changes have big effects.

That lets you implement a PVE content system that's just as accessible as WoW's is without sucking up the level of development resources that WoW's raiding takes, to actually allow for development time for other sandbox content.
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#53 Apr 12 2014 at 11:45 AM Rating: Decent
Jophiel wrote:
Stalker rdmcandie wrote:
While you have a plethora of different playing styles available to you, there is no means to and end so to speak. You don't train up mining skills so you can make that one awesome item for you and your friends for raiding, because there are no raids, unless you make raids.

Sounds a bit like Rust. You log in and some dude shoots you. Then you learn to stay alive long enough to learn all the weapon and gear blueprints so you can make guns, armor and forts and then... kill other people because there's nothing else to do thus necessitating their need to learn to make guns, armor and forts.


Ya most sandbox games fall into the same ****, and basically comes down to people playing the game, "writing" the game. Which I think is pretty awesome. As much as I enjoyed my fantasy MMO's there has always been something about making your own story that jumped out at me. I am a filthy space pirate with an 11:1 KDR come at me brah!
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#54 Apr 12 2014 at 11:50 AM Rating: Decent
idiggory the Fussy wrote:
I think there's a middle ground.

EVE is a very static sandbox from the developmental side of things. Players can do interesting things like build bases, camp gates, etc. But enemies don't. The PVE side of things remains fairly unchanged over time, because they use the same design ideas as traditional MMOs.


This is some what false now. CCP adjusted AI mechanics "recently" and Pirate Factions are more active on gates and in belts. Before you could sit there and they wouldn't shoot you for a while, now they will start shooting right away, so if you are not paying attention you will be killed. Also they added incursions, which lock down entire systems, with Pirate Gate camps and cyno jammers. you need to clear the incursion to lift the siege. and the gate camping rats have warp disruptors so if you jump in and can't kill the gate camp you will die.

The AI change was a year or two ago, and was designed to help "train" people to survive more PVPish type encounters. For missions for example I can park my ship and pretty much AFK. For incursions, I need more of a PVP fit, and have to fill a combat role actively, because the "smart AI" acts more like a PVP encounter, they will clear tackle ships, logistics ships, switch targets if they can't break tanks, pretty much all the stuff a PVP fleet would do, in a PVE setting. They are pretty neat.

And there needs to be some PVE done in the game, certain BPO's are only available through doing PVE related things, certain mods only drop from PVE related content. So there is a need for PVE stuff, it just takes a backseat to the player driven stuff centered around PVP.





Edited, Apr 12th 2014 1:55pm by rdmcandie
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#55 Apr 15 2014 at 11:40 AM Rating: Good
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the only games like the OP wants that I ever played were MUDs. To be honest when I first started FFXI (my first MMO) I was really disappointed that stuff like RP wasn't built into systems the same way. In the MUD I played before - you actually had to get accepted into a guild (each of which was run by players and controlled a class) to get your higher level class skills. It was neat. Later on you could be a class that was unaffiliated by a guild but there was power-ups (not to mention strength in numbers) if you were part of your class guild.

Gods were actually players that had ascended as well, and each god had a real cult, and could bestow powers on followers who (once again) met requirements. Roleplaying was strictly enforced. Honestly, it was really fun, unfortunately very very difficult to play because typing out combat commands and learning how to get around in a world completely based in text is hard. I wish there was an MMO like that though - with all the institutions run by players and with real roleplay with benefits.

Won't happen though, too niche for development cost.
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#56 Apr 15 2014 at 12:24 PM Rating: Good
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Honestly, MUDs are a "pretty easy" thing for low-level programmers to get into. But like MMOs, RPing during combat is pretty much impossible unless it happens to be turn-based instead of active. They're also fairly bot-vulnerable with how certain clients out there can respond specifically to certain text strings, create macros, and so on.

Anyway, I'm generally on the fence about there only being one way to do a certain thing, like pick up a class or just generally progress. It's why stuff like faction divides bore me, because it typically arbitrarily rules out things like traitors or general espionage resulting in the creation of alternative sources of classes or whatever. So, in that vein, encouraging guilds and such is nice to do, but really shouldn't be the only way to do something. Too many people get hung up on the fact that playing an MMO means you absolutely must play directly with others 24/7. That's simply not true and even a soloist can affect a world.
#57 Apr 15 2014 at 10:11 PM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
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Playing the markets can be pretty lucrative too.

Sure, but being able to get stuff yourself (for free) AND play buy low/sell high still beats only buying and selling and trusting in the supply to be there. There's a lot more bajillionaire end game characters than there are bajillionaire level twos.


Nope, as long as it's more efficient (and it typically is) to arbitrage goods than to farm them.
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#58 Apr 15 2014 at 10:23 PM Rating: Excellent
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Timelordwho wrote:
Nope, as long as it's more efficient (and it typically is) to arbitrage goods than to farm them.

It may well be now. It was considerably less so back when all transactions were done face to face by living people at their keyboards with no automated trading houses, auction houses, etc. Shoot, there weren't even global channels back then -- you had to actually be in the commonly accepted "market zone" to hear the sellers /shouting "WTS BANDED ARMOR 1PP PER AC!!"

Edited, Apr 15th 2014 11:25pm by Jophiel
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#59 Apr 15 2014 at 10:30 PM Rating: Good
Ahh the good ol days when shopping was actually a time consuming event.
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#60 Apr 16 2014 at 2:37 PM Rating: Good
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Seriha wrote:

Anyway, I'm generally on the fence about there only being one way to do a certain thing, like pick up a class or just generally progress. It's why stuff like faction divides bore me, because it typically arbitrarily rules out things like traitors or general espionage resulting in the creation of alternative sources of classes or whatever. So, in that vein, encouraging guilds and such is nice to do, but really shouldn't be the only way to do something. Too many people get hung up on the fact that playing an MMO means you absolutely must play directly with others 24/7. That's simply not true and even a soloist can affect a world.


in this case it did no such thing... one time I created an occultist, was part of their guild etc, then roleplayed having a conversion to the "lawful good" city - by stealing the orphans the occultists were using in their magical rites and running them to the lawful good city. They eventually captured and tortured me but they couldn't remove my class or anything, just access to the guild etc.

As I said, the game eventually loosened up in terms of progression in a class being based in a guild - but still liked that institutions were controlled by humans rather than NPCs. I'd love to see an MMO where that was more the case - and not in terms of the way it is now with player controlled institutions working around the mechanical systems of the game, but where players could be a the helm of them.

Again, know it has limitations etc... but I think it would go a long way towards creating immersive worlds, and I'd love to see it done in the future in a real MMO.
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#61 Apr 19 2014 at 10:36 PM Rating: Excellent
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I, for one, would stay miles away from a game where other players could determine whether or not I could pick up a class. Even ignoring the potential taint of RMT, I'm too cynical to believe the power gamers won't exploit the **** out of such things and basically make things casual unfriendly to the extreme.
#62 Apr 19 2014 at 10:55 PM Rating: Excellent
You all are taking taking this thread way too seriously. OP is clearly delusional.
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#63 Apr 20 2014 at 1:25 AM Rating: Good
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Eh, yes and no.

I don't think it's a bad thing to pine for the evolution of the MMO, but there is such a thing as giving too much control to players or at least putting emphasis on the wrong things. If I had to peg a few things people look for when playing these games, they'd be to feel powerful, look cool, and to find some prestige. The last is perhaps the most cancerous aspect to the genre, as it's culminated in the raid-heavy glut of games while fostering what I can only call toxic "anti-entitlement" mentalities that have a bad habit of declaring only certain types of "work" are valid in a clumsy justification of denying people content they pay for.

But that's another topic, and partly why I even chided the OP about his anti-F2P babble.
#64 May 03 2014 at 7:56 AM Rating: Default
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Stalker rdmcandie wrote:
Ahh the good ol days when shopping was actually a time consuming event.



it still is... if youre female.
#65 May 03 2014 at 8:01 AM Rating: Default
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Jophiel wrote:
Sure, but we weren't talking about EVE (in fact the OP keps ranting against it) but rather some mythical fantasy-based MMORPG world from an imagined past where players became "merchants" rather than take a combat/leveling oriented track.



I have four words for you:

"Ragnarok Online" "Merchant Class"

#66 May 03 2014 at 8:42 AM Rating: Good
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DuoMaxwellxx wrote:
"Ragnarok Online" "Merchant Class"


I remember seeing an image floating around involving a Merchant and not so pleasant run in with a Nightmare... (Though, by what was shown, I don't think it counted as a mare...)
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#67 May 03 2014 at 8:55 AM Rating: Excellent
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There ya go, OP. Play crappy Korean F2P MMOs.

Edit: Wait.. you ARE the OP Smiley: laugh Well, then it sounds like you already had your answer! Hooray!

Edited, May 3rd 2014 9:56am by Jophiel
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#68 May 03 2014 at 8:59 AM Rating: Decent
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Olorinus the Ludicrous wrote:
the only games like the OP wants that I ever played were MUDs. To be honest when I first started FFXI (my first MMO) I was really disappointed that stuff like RP wasn't built into systems the same way. In the MUD I played before - you actually had to get accepted into a guild (each of which was run by players and controlled a class) to get your higher level class skills. It was neat. Later on you could be a class that was unaffiliated by a guild but there was power-ups (not to mention strength in numbers) if you were part of your class guild.

Gods were actually players that had ascended as well, and each god had a real cult, and could bestow powers on followers who (once again) met requirements. Roleplaying was strictly enforced. Honestly, it was really fun, unfortunately very very difficult to play because typing out combat commands and learning how to get around in a world completely based in text is hard. I wish there was an MMO like that though - with all the institutions run by players and with real roleplay with benefits.

Won't happen though, too niche for development cost.



I reached god (well immortal) status in a MUD before... took years though lol infact just did it back in maybe 2008-2009 and I had been playin since 1997 or 2000. I also played one where you could pick a class but you didnt have access to ALL abilities that class offered if you didnt join a guild, sooo while you could play without being in a guild, youd never reach your full power/potential without being in one, and to get abilities you had to rank up in the guild, so everytime you ranked up in the guild an ability/abilities were unlocked, and to rank up you had to pass tests which we given to you by higher ranking guild members (as opposed to an automated or npc given tests) so other players controlled whether or not you progressed, the test (in my case sense I was in a thieves guild) ranged from:

1. Assassination

2. Seeing if i could sucessfully steal from another guild member or equal or higher talent than me (it was part of the test so they got their stuff back lol)

3. seeing if i could beat a guild member in the PVP arena

4. See if could successfully resist another guild members hypnosis (we were of serpent class and thats how we stole, he used hypnosis to get people to give us there stuff "willingly" as opposed to physically taking it ourselves. But with the right triggers or macros hypnosis can be avoided, or the right items or abilities for example an item that makes it impossible to see what Im carrying.. if my attacker doesnt know what Im carrying he/she doesnt know what to steal from me and thus cant though of course there are ways around THAT too.

5. finding the guild hall, thats right even after joining the guild you couldnt even enter the guild hall until you first figured out WHERE it was, and then figured out how to get in it ONCE you found it, and that was also a requirement for ranking up lol.


also yes roleplaying in there was also strictly enforced.


Another one i played was mostly PVE it was all quest based, no fetch quest all quest required HEAVY puzzle solving and you were only given extremely vague hints and other players couldnt physically come and team up with you and help with teh quests (even if you were both new and stumbled upon it together yo couldnt do/complete it together), if you died you lost experience points and could level down, also you had to avoid instant death traps, instant death rooms (i.e walking into the room was immediate death) and EVERYTHING you carried is dropped where you died, which means youd have to go back to that place and pick them back up (assuming some other player didnt find them first), however if you died in an instant death room then your items were lost because no one (except an immortal.. which i eventually became) could enter those rooms, but immortals werent allowed to interfere, so those items were lost until the servers were reset and everything is returned to its original locations, which the only way to reset was ask an immortal to do it, but all the other players in the game had to agree (as resetting would disrupt their play/progression) or if no immortals were online there was a reset room that you could reset in manually but ALL players had to be in that room for it to work.

the way to become an immortal was make it to a certain level then have some prerequisite quests completed. i just completed ALL quests on the list so i would have knowledge of them all (it also shocked me that even to this day you cant find cheat guide on the internet that shows the solutions to all those quests).


As for super vague quest hints that were allowed, theres on quest with this hard to navigate forest maze (i used to do the mazes by simply wandering around aimlessly until I got out but that maze was so elaborate that "brute forcing" it was practically impossible) there was also a maze that had a room that turned into an instant loop with no exit so while you didnt die the only way to get out was to teleport back to your homepoint which would require dropping all your stuff, so with all youre stuff stuck in that loot room, you didnt lose exp (because no death) but all those items and armor you worked so hard for are again lost until next reset. speaking of which armor and weapons were limited and thus you couldnt keep them after you logged off, so every reset (if there was a lot of ppl playing) was a race of seeing who could get quests done or get to certain areas first/fastest to decently gear up their character for harder stuff, since everyone starts off naked when they log in or reset.

But back to the hints for that super maze... the only hint I could be given was "follow the flowers" and i noticed in the forest you seen areas with flowers of different colors so I tried everything from following blue flower trails, to red flower trails to trying things like taking paths that started with 1 flower, then had 2 flowers, then the path that had 3 flowers hoping hat an increase of flowers by 1 on each path meant the right way, then when that didnt work i tried following paths that only had one flower, or paths that only had 2, or paths that only had 3 etc etc.

Nothing worked, then I remembered a flour mill near the forest and a note i picked up at one point during the quest that mentioned someone who works at the mill cheats on his wife with a woman who lives in a cabin in that forest (the very same cabin that my locator spell showed that the item i was looking for was located in), I also noticed an npc in the mill that was on an endless loop of walking into the mill picking up a bag of flour and walking out. so thats when I connected the dots, pulled out my sword and cut a small hole in one of the bags of flour, the npc immediately came in picked up that bag and walked out, will I left the mill there was a trail of flour going wherever the npc went, which lead to (and through) the forest and to the cabin.


so "follow the flowers" hint. was a play on words for flour and the flowers in the forest were there as a red herring to distract people who got that hint.

Now THAT what i call a developer putting thought into making a quest and something that keeps the player engaged and mentally stimulated (cause i definitely had to use my brain MUCH more than my brawn for ALL of those quests, some i didnt solve for years)

All the kinda stuff i listed above keeps the world much more immerse, and draws you in.. not to mention stuff like those quests would change any educated persons mind about "video games being for brainless people or rots the brain... those quests did the complete opposite or rot my brain.. if anything it forced me to push it close to its limits lol). Moreso than anything Ive ever done in school... especially since school is mostly lecture then memorization, whereas this was no lecture, teaching or memorization it was more of a "throw them into the deep end of the pool and hope they figure out how to swim before they drown" which is just the way i like it.
#69 May 03 2014 at 9:01 AM Rating: Default
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Jophiel wrote:
There ya go, OP. Play crappy Korean F2P MMOs.

Edit: Wait.. you ARE the OP Smiley: laugh Well, then it sounds like you already had your answer! Hooray!

Edited, May 3rd 2014 9:56am by Jophiel




yeah play crapppy F2P mmorpgs? even though i also said F2P mmos suck because they have zero depth.. just all grind? umm no thanks
#70 May 03 2014 at 9:02 AM Rating: Excellent
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But... but... Merchant Class!!! Smiley: laugh
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#71 May 03 2014 at 10:10 AM Rating: Good
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Stalker rdmcandie wrote:
Thats kinda the catch 22 the problem most people have with EVE is there is no direction, no reason. When everything becomes player driven people who don't have the capacity to create content for themselves find the game incredibly boring and not fun. While you have a plethora of different playing styles available to you, there is no means to and end so to speak. You don't train up mining skills so you can make that one awesome item for you and your friends for raiding, because there are no raids, unless you make raids.


My problem with EVE is that it's like one of those Tamagotchi things where you only need to water it and feed it once a day to play the game. And everything you can do becomes very monotonous after a while, but unlike in most other MMOs, repeating this monotonous task does not cause you to progress. Progression is mostly beyond your influence, because training new skills just takes time. You can't speed it up in any way, so it becomes a waiting game. A waiting game that never ends.

I prefer games where my time spent doing stuff in the game influences my progression. It encourages me to do more of the same stuff. For instance, raiding in WoW is very painful without a guild, but I do it because it unlocks better gear for me. Gear that I can then use to clear more difficult content. In EVE, I might go out and buy a new blaster that will make me able to clear more difficult content, but I then have to wait two months to train the skills I need to use said blaster... Two months where there is no reason for me to play the game, because I can't progress in any way.

And combat is very anti-climactic. The graphics in the game are absolutely gorgeous, but you play the game zoomed all the way out and via drop-down menus, because **** directly control over your actions. And when you finally kill that annoying mercenary who kept flying circles around you with a webber active, you get some ****** loot and a blinking icon that tells you to return to your agent who then increases your rating with one of hundreds of agencies by some decimal. And here's some money that in no way justifies the time spent on the mission. Just one thousand missions more and I'll be able to buy that blaster...

Edited, May 3rd 2014 6:15pm by Mazra
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#72 May 03 2014 at 12:37 PM Rating: Decent
Mazra wrote:

My problem with EVE is that it's like one of those Tamagotchi things where you only need to water it and feed it once a day to play the game. And everything you can do becomes very monotonous after a while, but unlike in most other MMOs, repeating this monotonous task does not cause you to progress. Progression is mostly beyond your influence, because training new skills just takes time. You can't speed it up in any way, so it becomes a waiting game. A waiting game that never ends.


There is no direct progression no, its not like WOW where they release the Lich King expansion and you know ultimately your goal is to kill the Lich King. But there is loads of progression of your own choosing. This is why I don't think EVE is a good game for people who need to be held by the hand and guided through content, because linear progression is non-existent in EVE, progression is what you want it to be, and many people can clear the mental hurdle of "I have to make my own goals to realize".

One of my goals was to reach proper -10. The profile will display -10 to others, but personal standings will show -9.9***. to you. I had to play the game in order to realize my goal of perfect -10.0000. This meant undocking and shooting as many targets as I could, without killing any NPC "Pirate" ships. The problem with the later is that if I was in space and any of my friends shot the "rats" in belts or on gates while I was in space, I would gain standings, instead of lose them. It took me 4 years (of off and on play) to realize my goal. In order to progress I had to literally PVP every single day, it was the only way to achieve my goal. It wasn't a waiting game, the speed at which I reached my goal depended entirely on my own actions.

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I prefer games where my time spent doing stuff in the game influences my progression. It encourages me to do more of the same stuff. For instance, raiding in WoW is very painful without a guild, but I do it because it unlocks better gear for me. Gear that I can then use to clear more difficult content. In EVE, I might go out and buy a new blaster that will make me able to clear more difficult content, but I then have to wait two months to train the skills I need to use said blaster... Two months where there is no reason for me to play the game, because I can't progress in any way.


Yes getting better modules will allow you to clear harder content, and do it faster, T1 Mods > T2 Mods > Faction Mods. granted the "newest content" doesn't always kick out previous contents stuff. Its not like Tournament Grounds making Ulduar Obsolete. Everything is relevant. Sometimes its better to equip a d T1 mod than a faction mod, it may have better fitting, it may offer more defense or offense, and it may be cost effective. Remember in WoW when BC came out and everyones stuff was obsolete within the first dozen quests? **** half of Final Fantasy left when Abyssea came in because it made everything people spent years getting was pretty much instantly made useless. Frankly I always thought FFXI did a good job keeping old content relevant, it was neat that my Sky gear could work in Salavage, and that my Dynamis gear was useful in Einherjar. Then SE torpedoed that and many many people quit. Including me. (granted I liked Abyssea.)

To me the lack of a linear gear progression is great in EVE. My sh*tty little frigate is just as useful 4 years from the day I first logged in with the skill already trained for me. I don't need to fly a Battleship all the time just because its the biggest or has the most DPS, because a gang of 10 2 week old newbies in T1 frigates can kill my battleship, with 0 loses if they do it right. Without nonlinear character progression EVE eliminates the "time" factor. If Progression was linear, like other games and based on playing the game you would end up with 2 things.

1) People with a vast majority of time would be heads and shoulders above any competition. In a PVP game this is terrible, you would litterally NEVER be able to catch up, and once that group got to endgame ships, you would never be able to beat them as a casual player, or a new player, or even a hardcore player that happens to have a job.

2) People who have been playing longer will have an unfair edge over new people to the game. With a linear progression ultimately you would hit the point where new players simply could not stack up. A group of guys 2014 would be stuck in a frig unable to fight against a guy from 2003 sitting in a Carrier. Thus granting people and unfair edge simply by picking the game up a decade before.

But thankfully EVE isn't linear, so the group of 2013 newbies who can fly some Battle Cruisers, Cruisers and Frigs are able to compete with the group of 2006 bittervets who can all fly battleships and capitals.

This is why EVE continues to grow while other MMO's are in recession. While you don't have as much control over the speed of your progression as say in WoW, it ensures that just because you started a game late, or have to leave the game for a bit, that the rest of the community will still be relatively equal in terms of power projection. Making the games longevity strong. Otherwise you would end up with people who join, get stomped all over the place by bitter vets just quit. EVE is a PVP game, its core element is Corporation/Alliance fleet combat and as such is balanced around keeping everything relevant and as equal as possible in terms of "Age" and "Skill Points.". Its PVE element is largely sh*t, although Incurssions to offer some semblance of "progression" based PVE. Although ive never done one so I am not sure of all the details, I know that they range in difficulty from small gang to full fleet, and offer unique drops and components as well as ships.



Quote:
And combat is very anti-climactic. The graphics in the game are absolutely gorgeous, but you play the game zoomed all the way out and via drop-down menus, because @#%^ directly control over your actions. And when you finally kill that annoying mercenary who kept flying circles around you with a webber active, you get some sh*tty loot and a blinking icon that tells you to return to your agent who then increases your rating with one of hundreds of agencies by some decimal. And here's some money that in no way justifies the time spent on the mission. Just one thousand missions more and I'll be able to buy that blaster...


Combat is kind of lame, but did you ever do PVP? I still get a rush every time I engage an enemy fleet. Its awesome that after 4 years I still get a thrill of fleet combat. Shooting little red crosses in a mission can't give you that. Something about fitting a ship, and then putting it on the line against another person who has done the exact same thing. My design vs theirs. Its something awesome, even better with friends. The pure satisfaction you hear from everyone after a victory is pretty intoxicating, and the awkward silence after a defeat is deafening. Its an entirely different element to the game when you are actually playing it and not asking the game what you should be doing.

EVE is what you make it, no one is ever really any more effective at anything than you are, and the goals are what you want them to be. Like I said some people just can't make the mental jump and prefer to have the game dictate what progression is.


Edited, May 3rd 2014 2:38pm by rdmcandie

Edited, May 3rd 2014 2:38pm by rdmcandie

Edited, May 3rd 2014 2:39pm by rdmcandie
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#73 May 03 2014 at 1:34 PM Rating: Good
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#74 May 03 2014 at 2:25 PM Rating: Good
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rdmcandie wrote:
While you don't have as much control over the speed of your progression as say in WoW, it ensures that just because you started a game late, or have to leave the game for a bit, that the rest of the community will still be relatively equal in terms of power projection.
rdmcandie wrote:
EVE is what you make it, no one is ever really any more effective at anything than you are


Except this isn't entirely true. Someone with six years of training will be much more effective than someone who just started playing. The same disparity that exists between newbies and veterans in WoW exists in EVE Online. The only difference is that the disparity in WoW is caused by gear while the disparity in EVE is caused by skill training.

I wouldn't stand a snowball's chance in **** of killing a veteran player in EVE Online. I've been ganked enough times in high-sec to realize this. And I've been training skills on/off for the last four or five years.
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#75 May 03 2014 at 10:09 PM Rating: Decent
Mazra wrote:
rdmcandie wrote:
While you don't have as much control over the speed of your progression as say in WoW, it ensures that just because you started a game late, or have to leave the game for a bit, that the rest of the community will still be relatively equal in terms of power projection.
rdmcandie wrote:
EVE is what you make it, no one is ever really any more effective at anything than you are


Except this isn't entirely true. Someone with six years of training will be much more effective than someone who just started playing. The same disparity that exists between newbies and veterans in WoW exists in EVE Online. The only difference is that the disparity in WoW is caused by gear while the disparity in EVE is caused by skill training.

I wouldn't stand a snowball's chance in **** of killing a veteran player in EVE Online. I've been ganked enough times in high-sec to realize this. And I've been training skills on/off for the last four or five years.


Thats not true though. Someone playing for 6 years might have more choices on what he could fly, but he is still limited to skill caps. Battleships and Battlecruiser skills take several months each, they do nothing to benefit frigate skills which take several weeks. Bigger ships != better ships, they = different ships. EVE is not linear progression. Endgame is not sitting in the biggest ship with the rarest items. (well I guess it can be). Endgame is realizing your goals, ones that you choose not get told are ones you want.

Its not like WoW where goal is to farm new content for the new best gear. If WoW was to be like EVE, all that sweet loot that I got 6 years ago out of BC would still be relevant in MoP but in a different way than gear from WoTLK would. Like I said last post, some people can't overcome the lack of linear progression, and need the game to have structured "tiers" to reach. That doesn't exist in EVE. You can have 95M SP. But I could still build ships better than you, if you have no manufacturing skills.


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#76 May 04 2014 at 3:31 AM Rating: Good
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A frigate pilot with six years of constant training will perform better than a frigate player with two days of training. I know EVE Online isn't linear in its progressions, and I know that bigger isn't necessarily better, but a player with six years of skill training will be able to fit much better items than someone who just started.

You even said it yourself:

Quote:
You can have 95M SP. But I could still build ships better than you, if you have no manufacturing skills.
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#77 May 06 2014 at 10:26 AM Rating: Excellent
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Master Shojindo wrote:
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We don't need no education!
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#78 May 06 2014 at 11:13 AM Rating: Excellent
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His Excellency Aethien wrote:
Master Shojindo wrote:
Help I'm trapped under the wall!
We don't need no education!


How can you have any pudding if you dont eat your meat?
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#79 May 06 2014 at 12:22 PM Rating: Good
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DuoMaxwellxx wrote:


I reached god (well immortal) status in a MUD before... took years though lol infact just did it back in maybe 2008-2009 and I had been playin since 1997 or 2000. I also played one where you could pick a class but you didnt have access to ALL abilities that class offered if you didnt join a guild, sooo while you could play without being in a guild, youd never reach your full power/potential without being in one, and to get abilities you had to rank up in the guild, so everytime you ranked up in the guild an ability/abilities were unlocked, and to rank up you had to pass tests which we given to you by higher ranking guild members (as opposed to an automated or npc given tests) so other players controlled whether or not you progressed, the test (in my case sense I was in a thieves guild) ranged from:

1. Assassination

2. Seeing if i could sucessfully steal from another guild member or equal or higher talent than me (it was part of the test so they got their stuff back lol)

3. seeing if i could beat a guild member in the PVP arena

4. See if could successfully resist another guild members hypnosis (we were of serpent class and thats how we stole, he used hypnosis to get people to give us there stuff "willingly" as opposed to physically taking it ourselves. But with the right triggers or macros hypnosis can be avoided, or the right items or abilities for example an item that makes it impossible to see what Im carrying.. if my attacker doesnt know what Im carrying he/she doesnt know what to steal from me and thus cant though of course there are ways around THAT too.

5. finding the guild hall, thats right even after joining the guild you couldnt even enter the guild hall until you first figured out WHERE it was, and then figured out how to get in it ONCE you found it, and that was also a requirement for ranking up lol.



I am pretty sure we played the same MUD. Achaea, amirite?

Edited, May 6th 2014 11:23am by Olorinus
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#80 May 06 2014 at 1:07 PM Rating: Good
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It doesn't take all that long to get far into the competitive range for Frigates, though. Weeks, not months. And if someone is ganking you with a T2 attack frigate, you don't have a huge chance.

But T2 frigates are realistically a whole different class of ship. It's like comparing a Frigate to a Destroyer, they're just different. And being able to fly T2 frigs doesn't mean you stop flying T1 frigs, because the game is balanced around T1 frigs still being highly relevant (often more so than T2 ships).

But in the actual scheme of things, when considering Fleet vs. Fleet combat, there's plenty of room for a player who only has a month and a half of experience. Because it just doesn't matter if someone has the skills to fly battlecruisers if what you need is some more frigates.
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#81 May 07 2014 at 12:45 AM Rating: Good
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I'm glad that the term frigate is as vague and unhelpful in Eve as in real life.
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#82 May 07 2014 at 8:38 AM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
Timelordwho wrote:
Playing the markets can be pretty lucrative too.

Sure, but being able to get stuff yourself (for free) AND play buy low/sell high still beats only buying and selling and trusting in the supply to be there. There's a lot more bajillionaire end game characters than there are bajillionaire level twos.


A friend in XIV started "playing the markets" properly and made six million gil in his first month. I don't even think he had a class to 35 by the time he was the richest person in our little free company.

I'm still kind of in awe.
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#83 May 07 2014 at 1:37 PM Rating: Good
Catwho wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
Timelordwho wrote:
Playing the markets can be pretty lucrative too.

Sure, but being able to get stuff yourself (for free) AND play buy low/sell high still beats only buying and selling and trusting in the supply to be there. There's a lot more bajillionaire end game characters than there are bajillionaire level twos.


A friend in XIV started "playing the markets" properly and made six million gil in his first month. I don't even think he had a class to 35 by the time he was the richest person in our little free company.

I'm still kind of in awe.


I know there are people who revel in making virtual currency in MMO's and don't even care about questing or other aspects. But it's hard for me to understand because virtual money is never really important to me. I just do enough in game to fund playing the game the way I want. I've known a few MMO gold hoarders though who just sat on millions like a fat dragon.

Did not raid. Did not even buy expensive gear for themselves. Only bought it for investment to sell higher and collect more precious pixel golds. Smiley: twocents
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#84 May 07 2014 at 1:55 PM Rating: Excellent
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I had characters at the Influence (game currency) cap in City of Heroes. Then they shut the game down. Billions of pseudo-dollars gone with the flip of a switch.
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#85 May 07 2014 at 2:03 PM Rating: Excellent
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I never got the hoarding money thing. Making money is fun. I like buying and selling stuff, collecting materials, etc. but the point has always been to buy nifty things with it. Money comes and goes, screenshots of your elf in a bikini on a rare dragon mount are forever.
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#86 May 07 2014 at 2:09 PM Rating: Good
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During the quote unquote infamous Christmas rush in Final Fantasy XI there were a ton of people buying currency. So there was this ridiculous influx of money in the hands of people that weren't the brightest people in the world, and a good money making tactic was to put up certain necessary items in your personal market. There were two markets, an auction house and a bazaar. The way you sell things on the auction house was to put them up and price them at stack prices, whereas the bazaar was priced for individual items. So what I these mean people would do is put the items in their bazaar at stack prices. So an item that was 100g per, and 10,000g per stack on the auction house would be priced 8,000g in the bazaar. In short, people would be paying 792,000g for 10,000g worth of items.

I needed several mules to cover all those moneys.

Edited, May 7th 2014 4:10pm by lolgaxe
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