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Are ther any mmmorpgs lef tthat have....Follow

#27 Apr 09 2014 at 9:11 AM Rating: Decent
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lolgaxe wrote:
DuoMaxwellxx wrote:
others in guilds worked as spies to spy on rival guilds to get intel (i.e something an technique like listening would be good for)
Could you go back to the Specific General Forums and stop trying to infect the rest of Zam with stupid? Thanks.

Edited, Apr 9th 2014 10:31am by lolgaxe


not stupid at all if a rival guild was planning an ambush on your guild or an attack on your guild headquarters
#28 Apr 09 2014 at 9:12 AM Rating: Decent
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DuoMaxwellxx wrote:
not stupid at all
That wasn't a game technique that was just making a second character and joining the other group.
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#29 Apr 09 2014 at 9:45 AM Rating: Default
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lolgaxe wrote:
DuoMaxwellxx wrote:
not stupid at all
That wasn't a game technique that was just making a second character and joining the other group.



well theres always gonna be other ways to get the job done.
#30 Apr 09 2014 at 3:02 PM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
Seriha wrote:
This is kind of the root of why I've said RP gets mocked and never really leads to anything in other similar conversations, too.

I always figured it was the Mary Sue personalities, maudlin prose, "Son of a vampire, a dragon and a were-kraken" backgrounds and the thin excuse for "My eyes journey like two travelers along the expanses of your white elven skin to rest upon your sweet elf boobies".

Well, that doesn't help, but I personally can't fault people for uncultivated imagination or being lonely and seeking an outlet that way. The former is something that needs refined through experience and experimentation with people at or above their level, much like an artist drawing on a piece of paper. The latter is probably more obvious if you consider online gaming more a nerd culture thing.

On a personal level, I tend to abhor people who sling the Mary Sue/Gary Stu terms around as they're rooted more in destructive observation than actually trying to help a person. Many then go on to try and defend this by saying shaming the offenders should motivate them to be better, but I'm sure there are enough psychological studies out there indicate positive reinforcement will do better. Unfortunately, similar winds up manifesting in other MMO aspects like the stupid "learn to play" rhetoric or the long standing casual vs. hardcore war and how dev philosophies embrace or even contradict certain things.
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#31 Apr 10 2014 at 1:20 PM Rating: Good
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Im not looking at EVE cause while it is an MMO its not an RPG.


Its not a Fantasy RPG, but it most certainly is an RPG. You take on a role, you advance your character through skills in that role, and you play the game in that role. RPG isn't just reserved for Swords and Shields, Magic and Dragons.

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It seems anime does better at making MMORPGs than MMORPGs do (Sword art online isnt the only on, .hack was pretty good to), what happened to the days when an mmo player could do whatever they wanted, some cared about raiding and endgame and they did that, others just wanted to be merchants and spent their day hunting monsters and selling loot to players, others spent their time making armor/weapons to sell to players, some were cooks that hunted the ingredient and cooked food to sell and keep players fed, others in guilds worked as spies to spy on rival guilds to get intel (i.e something an technique like listening would be good for) etc etc. With stuff like that it made the world seem more alive, you didnt really need NPCs at all because players could (and in most cases did) provide/supply all the things an NPC would have done).


Again the game you are looking for is EVE, since it is the only MMO at least since ive played them which was with Ultima way back when 97 or 98. (I didn't get into the text based MUD's but then again thats not really a game, more like narration and story time.) No other mainstream MMO has ever offered the sandbox stuff you seem to think existed, and I have ****** away thousands of dollars and hours playing pretty much all of them since the genre burst on to the scene. I can't think of any time period in the last ~15 years that you seem to think existed.

If you want all of the things you have listed, go play EVE **** I might even be able to get you a 21 day free trial if I can remember how to get buddy codes. It has everything you want, I guess with exception of Swords, shields magic and dragons.

You won't find what you want in a game otherwise because none currently exist at the moment other than EVE. It is pretty near 100% player driven content, in pretty much every aspect. The only game that might be remotely similar is H1Z1 which is only in the "we have an idea for this game and we might have it ready for a trial run by an unset date" (4-6 weeks 20$ early access on steam)

But that one is going to be FTP, and is going to be a shooter MMORPG, since you think FTP games suck, and RPGs can only be of the Fantasy Genre you might not like that sandbox either.
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#32 Apr 10 2014 at 11:02 PM Rating: Good
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It's kind of silly to say animes wind up better MMOs, too. I've seen SAO, .hack, and even Log Horizon. Sure, there's a coat of MMO paint over the whole, "We're trapped in the game!" rhetoric, but rarely, if ever, do these titles truly touch upon the monotony and douchebaggery of the communities. As well, various "passive" skills come up more as a matter of plot convenience than a selling point. Kirito needs to find someone? Oh, hey, he leveled his tracking skill. Go fig.

Coincidentally, there are .hack games. And they suck when it comes to the game play department.
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#33 Apr 10 2014 at 11:04 PM Rating: Default
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I never once said RPGs could only be in the fantasy genre.. I can name plenty that arent fantasy. However what I DO say about RPGs are they are usually turn based (though some action RPGs DO exist... kingdom hearts for example), and they have stats, and youre stats (and your strategy and brain) are more of a determining factor or whether or not you win or lose a fight or dodge a hit than your reflexes, and well EVE definitely seems to require some degree of reflexes.

but yes I do LOVE to read about EVE everything Ive heard about it sounds wonderful. Like that battle that caused $200,000 in damage and The Guiding Hand incident, all that sound slike stuff Id LOVE to see happen in other games, even if i was on the receiving end of it, at least the world would feel alive.

But then theres articles like the one linked below...

http://www.polygon.com/features/2014/2/24/5419788/eve-online-thrilling-boring
#34 Apr 11 2014 at 12:05 AM Rating: Excellent
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idiggory the Fussy wrote:
There are plenty of gamers out there who are really interested in operating shops/farms/towns, for instance. And there's plenty there to make those systems deep and interesting, with extensive progression.
The whole point of an MMO is to make lots of in game money doing stuff like fiddling with prices on the auction house and collecting lots of ore or whatever while you're out exploring. Then you trade your in game currency for real money stuff and buy all the fancy dodads from the cash shop. Once you're had your fill collecting skimpy costumes and fancy dragons you move on to a different game.

Explore, harvest, trade, exploit, flaunt, rinse, repeat. Smiley: nod
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#35 Apr 11 2014 at 7:32 AM Rating: Good
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Seriha wrote:
I've seen SAO, .hack, and even Log Horizon. Sure, there's a coat of MMO paint over the whole, "We're trapped in the game!" rhetoric, but rarely, if ever, do these titles truly touch upon the monotony and douchebaggery of the communities.
I can't imagine why a show slated for like ten hours of total run time would have to cut out some of the more monotonous aspects of a game genre. I'd also ask if by saying you've seen, do you mean you've seen a few screen shots or promotional images of the shows, or maybe some fan art? Because SAO was like every other episode was dealing with douches.
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#36 Apr 11 2014 at 7:36 AM Rating: Excellent
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I need a show set in an MMORPG world where two guys spend five hours looking for a healer so they can grind some levels. That would be compelling television.
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#37 Apr 11 2014 at 7:41 AM Rating: Good
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And don't get me started on how movies are so unrealistic with their not showing people sleeping for eight hours.
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#38 Apr 11 2014 at 7:46 AM Rating: Excellent
Jophiel wrote:
I need a show set in an MMORPG world where two guys spend five hours looking for a healer so they can grind some levels. That would be compelling television.


The smash hit Harold and Kumar try to find a healer!

Followed by the sequel Harold and Kumar try and find a tank.


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#39 Apr 11 2014 at 7:49 AM Rating: Good
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Yeah, SAO was definitely primarily about all the other players being ****** I've only just started Log Horizon, but that seems to be a pretty clear theme as well...

Really, the most significant difference of these scenarios should be obvious - they're an immersive experience in a way video games are not right now. That is a big change when it comes to content development.
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#40 Apr 11 2014 at 4:49 PM Rating: Good
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lolgaxe wrote:
Seriha wrote:
I've seen SAO, .hack, and even Log Horizon. Sure, there's a coat of MMO paint over the whole, "We're trapped in the game!" rhetoric, but rarely, if ever, do these titles truly touch upon the monotony and douchebaggery of the communities.
I can't imagine why a show slated for like ten hours of total run time would have to cut out some of the more monotonous aspects of a game genre. I'd also ask if by saying you've seen, do you mean you've seen a few screen shots or promotional images of the shows, or maybe some fan art? Because SAO was like every other episode was dealing with douches.

I'm talking about sh*t like elitist number crunching, guild requirements/applications, loljob mentalities, casual vs. hardcore drama, and all the stuff that essentially requires the MMO mechanics in question to actually exist as a point of contention to begin with. People can be ********** murderers, and thieves without all that, sure, but for the most part, I'd be comfortable in saying one could swap "MMO setting" with "generic fantasy world" and you wouldn't lose a whole **** of a lot in the presented plots.

But more on point, I can certainly understand why hours of killing colibri would make terrible television. It made terrible gaming, too. SAO's "raid" at the world tree disappointed me terribly. LH occasionally tried to portray a sense of tactics like when fighting the bandit leader guy or conveying Shiroe's teachings through Minori, but combat ultimately took second fiddle in the show's presentation. With MMOs primarily being combat engines with fluff built on top, it's only natural there's a disconnect here if you instead try to make story priority in a show.

Heck, it reminds me of the Tales of the Abyss anime. The Tales games are practically all about their combat systems, and while this anime adaptation wasn't terrible, I was disappointed we didn't see all that much fighting.

Edited, Apr 11th 2014 6:52pm by Seriha
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#41 Apr 11 2014 at 5:00 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
I'm talking about sh*t like elitist number crunching, guild requirements/applications, loljob mentalities, casual vs. hardcore drama, and all the stuff that essentially requires the MMO mechanics in question to actually exist as a point of contention to begin with.


I feel like these were all represented in SAO. We had newbs and noobs and elitists and average players. Endgame raiders, crafters, people who just played casually, etc.

I'm not nearly far enough into Log Horizon to judge that one, but I felt like the ridiculous "save the girl from the other city" arc was pretty representative of the fact that the main characters were hardcore players.
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#42 Apr 11 2014 at 5:15 PM Rating: Good
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Stalker rdmcandie wrote:
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It seems anime does better at making MMORPGs than MMORPGs do (Sword art online isnt the only on, .hack was pretty good to), what happened to the days when an mmo player could do whatever they wanted, some cared about raiding and endgame and they did that, others just wanted to be merchants and spent their day hunting monsters and selling loot to players, others spent their time making armor/weapons to sell to players, some were cooks that hunted the ingredient and cooked food to sell and keep players fed, others in guilds worked as spies to spy on rival guilds to get intel (i.e something an technique like listening would be good for) etc etc. With stuff like that it made the world seem more alive, you didnt really need NPCs at all because players could (and in most cases did) provide/supply all the things an NPC would have done).


Again the game you are looking for is EVE, since it is the only MMO at least since ive played them which was with Ultima way back when 97 or 98. (I didn't get into the text based MUD's but then again thats not really a game, more like narration and story time.) No other mainstream MMO has ever offered the sandbox stuff you seem to think existed, and I have ****** away thousands of dollars and hours playing pretty much all of them since the genre burst on to the scene. I can't think of any time period in the last ~15 years that you seem to think existed.


Star Wars Galaxies actually had all that.
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#43 Apr 12 2014 at 12:17 AM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
I've been playing MMORPGs since '99 and don't remember a time like that. Maybe in the MUDs (which I didn't play) but not in the "modern" 3D MMO era. Yeah, you had some people who liked tradeskills and stuff but the best way to excel at tradeskills was still to be a high level character with access to the best components and +Stat gear to increase your chances at success. Likewise, the best way to play the markets was always to be able to go out and get the stuff that people wanted to buy. Which meant high levels which meant killing things which meant combat. Some people would play the "buy low/sell high" game but 95% of the guys yelling "Sword for sale" had just pulled that sword off some dead monster's corpse.


Playing the markets can be pretty lucrative too.
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#44 Apr 12 2014 at 4:39 AM Rating: Decent
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idiggory the Fussy wrote:
Quote:
I'm talking about sh*t like elitist number crunching, guild requirements/applications, loljob mentalities, casual vs. hardcore drama, and all the stuff that essentially requires the MMO mechanics in question to actually exist as a point of contention to begin with.


I feel like these were all represented in SAO. We had newbs and noobs and elitists and average players. Endgame raiders, crafters, people who just played casually, etc.

Eh, I'm just being picky in regards to how deep they go. Saying there were people on the front lines handling the level clears while Kirito ****** around solo doesn't exactly say much for raiding or even guilds. The whole beta tester/beater thing was also pretty much forgotten once they beat the first boss. A lot of it really is just vague connecting the dots that MMO players themselves may understand, but outsiders won't.

As for LH:
The rescue does indeed help cement the fact that Shiroe and his friends were endgame players prior to the expansion release, but focus soon shifts to Minori and the other kids with their general struggles of finding synergy and basically beings noobs. They try to mix some political drama in with the NPCs, but the cast we started with just largely becomes background support and I do find that annoying. Toss in the last few episodes being so focused on a student:teacher relationship crap and it just feels like so much wasted potential.

Of course, there's a second season in the works, just as SAO is also getting another one around the same time. I'm more interested in LH, but not because it involves MMO allusions. And, well, Nureha boobs.
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#45 Apr 12 2014 at 9:23 AM Rating: Excellent
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Timelordwho wrote:
Playing the markets can be pretty lucrative too.

Sure, but being able to get stuff yourself (for free) AND play buy low/sell high still beats only buying and selling and trusting in the supply to be there. There's a lot more bajillionaire end game characters than there are bajillionaire level twos.
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#46 Apr 12 2014 at 9:48 AM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
Timelordwho wrote:
Playing the markets can be pretty lucrative too.

Sure, but being able to get stuff yourself (for free) AND play buy low/sell high still beats only buying and selling and trusting in the supply to be there. There's a lot more bajillionaire end game characters than there are bajillionaire level twos.


Well, obviously, but correlation != causation. It takes a lot of time to reach bajillionaire status, most people are going to get some characters to endgame by then. You don't generally play the AH by actually just sitting at the AH for long periods, particularly not in games that allow addons.

You do need start-up capital. That can come from selling raw goods, from questing, or some combination of the two.

But, otherwise, most people who make money by playing the AH aren't wasting time gathering raw goods (at least in the games I play). Gathering raw materials has a much lower return on time spent, and playing the AH is a ton of profit for minimal effort (if you know what you're doing, at least). I can only comment on how it goes in EVE, WoW, and FFXIV, though.

EVE, in particular, is noteworthy, since Business, Industry, and Mining are all separate specializations with their own skills. Many people who play markets don't invest into Mining at all (because Mining is boring). I'd wager most invest into Industry (if only to get their own cargo ships), but I do know players who spend all their time PVPing and only invested into business to play markets, which gets them PLEX (for free access to the game), and all their ships/ammo/modules.

It's a preferred strategy, because Business has the best training time:profit ratio, and that means they can keep training their PVP skills instead.

Of course, plenty of players also roll Indy/Mining alts, instead, so there's that.
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#47 Apr 12 2014 at 9:50 AM Rating: Excellent
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Sure, but we weren't talking about EVE (in fact the OP keps ranting against it) but rather some mythical fantasy-based MMORPG world from an imagined past where players became "merchants" rather than take a combat/leveling oriented track.
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#48 Apr 12 2014 at 10:15 AM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
Sure, but we weren't talking about EVE (in fact the OP keps ranting against it) but rather some mythical fantasy-based MMORPG world from an imagined past where players became "merchants" rather than take a combat/leveling oriented track.


Ah, okay. Yeah, no fantasy MMO I can remember had business as a fleshed-out play style. Playing the AH could easily fully fund your character, but the actual content production of the game has always been in the PVE/PVP content area.
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#49 Apr 12 2014 at 10:27 AM Rating: Excellent
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More to it, he was "remembering" a time when warriors would go out and collect loot and bring it back to sell to merchants who would then sell it to other warriors. But it rarely worked like that even in the dawning age of (3D) MMORPGs before auction houses and automated trading where people would sit at the Eastern Commonlands tunnel in Everquest and shout "Flowing Black Silk Sash for sale!" until someone ran up to them and gave them thousands of coin. While some people did sit around and flip merchandise, I'd wager that 95% of the exchanges were done directly, warrior to warrior as it were without any "merchant" middleman. The scenario he's remembering just never existed.

Edited, Apr 12th 2014 11:28am by Jophiel
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#50 Apr 12 2014 at 10:59 AM Rating: Decent
idiggory the Fussy wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
Sure, but we weren't talking about EVE (in fact the OP keps ranting against it) but rather some mythical fantasy-based MMORPG world from an imagined past where players became "merchants" rather than take a combat/leveling oriented track.


Ah, okay. Yeah, no fantasy MMO I can remember had business as a fleshed-out play style. Playing the AH could easily fully fund your character, but the actual content production of the game has always been in the PVE/PVP content area.


Thats kinda the catch 22 the problem most people have with EVE is there is no direction, no reason. When everything becomes player driven people who don't have the capacity to create content for themselves find the game incredibly boring and not fun. While you have a plethora of different playing styles available to you, there is no means to and end so to speak. You don't train up mining skills so you can make that one awesome item for you and your friends for raiding, because there are no raids, unless you make raids.

So while its neat that you can do whatever you want for the most part, there is no one pointing you in a direction. Compared to WoW for example where there is no real indepth player driven stuff, you at least have a hand guiding you around and clear objectives to overcome.

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#51 Apr 12 2014 at 11:31 AM Rating: Excellent
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Stalker rdmcandie wrote:
While you have a plethora of different playing styles available to you, there is no means to and end so to speak. You don't train up mining skills so you can make that one awesome item for you and your friends for raiding, because there are no raids, unless you make raids.

Sounds a bit like Rust. You log in and some dude shoots you. Then you learn to stay alive long enough to learn all the weapon and gear blueprints so you can make guns, armor and forts and then... kill other people because there's nothing else to do thus necessitating their need to learn to make guns, armor and forts.

Edited, Apr 12th 2014 12:32pm by Jophiel
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