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Are ther any mmmorpgs lef tthat have....Follow

#1 Apr 06 2014 at 10:46 PM Rating: Decent
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Im looking for MMORPGs that arent F2P (those are terrible) that have "useless" non combat skills... like "listening" (allows you to do things like hear through walls/doors for eavesdropping. Or being able o set and disarm traps, or have traps out in the open world which are triggered by certain actions (one game for example had a trap that was triggered by talking.. so everytime you talked using "say" the trap blasted you (talking in party chat or through private chat didnt set it off though), though a good thief or rogue could detect and disarm traps, as well as pick locks (since said game came from s time where treasures chests needed keys to be opened and werent as simple and just walking up and clicking on it... a thief on the other hand with the right skills leveled could bypass finding a key altogether and just pick the lock (this worked on locked doors too not just chests).

But the MAIN feature Im looking for in open world PKing, it could be either ANYWHERE outside of town or just specific areas scattered all over the world (though these areas would be areas youd have to venture to or at least through at some point so avoiding them altogether wasnt an option) and possibly being able to loot players after you kill them (though that part isnt mandatory for what Im looking for but it would be a nice bonus), I miss the thrill of exploring an unknown area, or doing a qust in an area while constantly looking over my shoulder knowing that at any moment another player could come out of nowhere and start attacking me. MMOs seem to have gotten so care bear as of late, where the stuff for those of us who are still looking for a rush?

Soo any MMOs out there liek that these days? It doesnt even have to be new one, I would prefer the newest game closest to it but if such a game doesnt exist this day and age and we have to go back to 1995 then so be it, Id play that too, I can name a million text based MUDs that fit the description Im looking for but I wanna play a graphical game thats the same or at least similar
#2 Apr 06 2014 at 11:54 PM Rating: Good
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PKing isn't popular in the West for a simple reason: Griefing. It's why you see PvE servers on games. It's why you see few PvP only games at all. Most people just want to have fun, not be bullied by those who live and breathe a game 24/7.

So, if you can put aside your asinine F2P bias, keep an eye out for ArchAge. It should be out by the end of the year for us and after a point, open world PvP is a thing as it also involves the control of lands, possible naval battles, and so on. I'm sure Trion has an official page up for it by now, so you can do the rest of the legwork.

But there's also a reason why some "old features" you're pining for aren't likely to appear in new games these days, either. I'll let you figure that one out, too.
#3 Apr 07 2014 at 12:12 PM Rating: Good
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Seriha wrote:

So, if you can put aside your asinine F2P bias,

Yeah, F2P has proven to be a viable business model for MMO's, so there's no reason to assume a f2p mmo will be better, worse or the same as a monthly sub one.
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#4 Apr 07 2014 at 12:19 PM Rating: Good
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But the MAIN feature Im looking for in open world PKing, it could be either ANYWHERE outside of town or just specific areas scattered all over the world (though these areas would be areas youd have to venture to or at least through at some point so avoiding them altogether wasnt an option) and possibly being able to loot players after you kill them (though that part isnt mandatory for what Im looking for but it would be a nice bonus), I miss the thrill of exploring an unknown area, or doing a qust in an area while constantly looking over my shoulder knowing that at any moment another player could come out of nowhere and start attacking me. MMOs seem to have gotten so care bear as of late, where the stuff for those of us who are still looking for a rush?


You are looking for EVE Online

- can kill other players anywhere (although in High security space you will in turn be killed by the cops)
- Exploring WH's is about as unknown as it gets
- Doing missions or plexes in Lowsec or Nullsec requires you to constantly scan for other ships. In WH's sites are even riskier without aid from local channel numbers
- Players can cloak and attack you out of no where, so you also need to be constantly ready to fight or run.

Some things you can do.

- Mining
- Production
- Piracy
- Empire Building
- Spying
- Exploration

Do one or do them all, its a sandbox play however you want. (if you make enough Isk you can "play for free" as well)


Edited, Apr 7th 2014 2:24pm by rdmcandie
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#5 Apr 07 2014 at 12:20 PM Rating: Excellent
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#6 Apr 07 2014 at 12:47 PM Rating: Good
There was tons of open world PKing in Age of Wushu when I played it. The skill leveling system is extremely time intensive though so new characters are at a pretty bad disadvantage to the power curve.

When I played it I was on a new server so there was pretty even PvP in the world a lot of the time. But I decided I did not want to invest the time it takes daily to stay with the power of no-lifers so I quit.
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#7 Apr 07 2014 at 2:20 PM Rating: Default
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Im not looking at EVE cause while it is an MMO its not an RPG.

As for F2P games I dont like them because they lack content, might get updated every 6+ months, and their idea of "new content" is usually just adding more areas, with higher level monsters to grind on and raising the level cap thats not content thats called "more tedious grinding."


Also leveling in those games is HORRIBLE, so much so they have to have double exp weekends every week because they know its horrible (and even still i doesnt help much). I mean for example in some games of the game sI played you have to get 100% exp to level... monster give you 1% at lower levels so thats, 100 kils to level, ok I can do that, then itll go to .75 a kill, ok thats fine too, then .50%, ok thats fine too, then .25%, getting worse but thats 4 kills for 1% so 400 kills to level, ok I can do that, eventually you get to the point where you get .01% per kill, thats 100 kills for 1%, so 10000 kills to level, and then it goes even further to the point where you have to kill 4-6 m,obs just to get that .1%, and this is before youre even HALFWAY to level cap, im sorry but i dont wanna play a game 3 years and still feel like im not gonna hit max level for another 7 years.

At least sub based MMOs give you HUGE new content updates every 2-3 months.. why? because they need you to keep giving them 15 bucks every month so theyre gonna do whatever it takes to keep you paying.. free to play doesnt do that because well its free, so you might go 6 month before theres any REAL content that isnt just increasing level cap and higher level mobs to grind on.

So name me some F2P mmorpgs that dont play like what I describe above and Ill HAPPILY go play them... the ones Ive played are:

DC Universe online (which isnt like above but i consider that more of a button mashing action game than an RPG)
2Moons
Last Chaos
9 Dragons

and they all played just like what I described

#8 Apr 07 2014 at 10:24 PM Rating: Default
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sooo anyone?
#9 Apr 08 2014 at 5:02 AM Rating: Excellent
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Try a WoW PvP server, if you find the right one there will be plenty of open world PvP. Of course it doesn't have any pointless skills like "listening" to train in or gimmicky traps like you described because almost nobody cares about that kind of **** and it adds nothing to a game.
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#10 Apr 08 2014 at 6:56 AM Rating: Excellent
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At least sub based MMOs give you HUGE new content updates every 2-3 months.

Smiley: confused Smiley: dubious
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#11 Apr 08 2014 at 7:02 AM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
DuoMaxwellxx wrote:
At least sub based MMOs give you HUGE new content updates every 2-3 months.

Smiley: confused Smiley: dubious


Yeah, that's a conception that exists. I was having the same argument with people on the FFXIV board two months ago, because they were INSISTING that a F2P game had to get less content than a sub game. I eventually gave up; it was like talking to gbaji. Except it was a board of gbajis. And one of them was an admin.

At the end of the day, it all comes down to whether or not a company thinks designing content for the game will be profitable (and one would hope they did, or you probably want to drop it now). Sub or no sub, they make money by keeping people playing the game. They keep people playing the game by delivering content.
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#12 Apr 08 2014 at 7:33 AM Rating: Excellent
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I've never played a sub game that released "huge" content updates that regularly. And, when they did have a huge content update, it was often in the form of a paid expansion. Of course these days the whole F2P line is blurred anyway with games offering "premium" subscriptions, cash shops, etc.

Out of the mainstream MMORPGs I'm familiar with, Everquest by far had the most non-combat/non-crafting style skills. Things like Safe Fall, Lock Picking, Pickpocketing, Forage, Sense Heading, Alcohol Tolerance, Swimming, Begging, Sneak, Hide, a ton of different languages, etc. And spells like summoning light sources, summoning food, levitating, magical scrying eyes, a 'sanctuary' spell to warn if monsters were close and more. Most games these days seems to streamline everything solely into combat which I think is too bad but so it goes. No idea what the PvP situation is on Everquest these days; I think they're down to one PvP server and I don't know what its rule set is.

[edit: It's =/= Its... was bugging me. Also, added Begging to skills list]

Edited, Apr 8th 2014 9:48am by Jophiel
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#13 Apr 08 2014 at 8:02 AM Rating: Good
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There have been some interesting articles and talks on the problem of combat in games recently.

The extreme simplification is that the focus on combat is part of an industry-wide misconception in demographics that is only just now being made apparent. Essentially, of the various demographic ranges, the only group that cares a ton about content is the teenage male group. Which is unsurprising, really.

But most people tend to think this group actually makes up a big portion of the market, when they actually don't. They're definitely the most representative population relative to the size of the original pool (as in, a higher percentage of males 13-19 play video games than males 20-35, or whatever the actual ranges are). But they're only something like 8-12% of the total market of players.

They're also not the group with the most money to spend on gaming.

So studies are suggesting that more moderate gains in a wider base of demographics will lead to more profits overall. That means a reduced emphasis on combat and an increased emphasis on alternate progression systems. Progression being the key. "Casual" content is tossed around to mean anything non-combat, but non-combat systems can still be deep and interesting.

There are plenty of gamers out there who are really interested in operating shops/farms/towns, for instance. And there's plenty there to make those systems deep and interesting, with extensive progression.

There will still be plenty of games that are designed with the idea of getting 100% of the teenage male market and 40% of the 20s male market (AKA, Call of Duty). But games that aren't guaranteed success are learning that targeting a smaller demographic with established brand allegiance and little spending money is probably not the most profitable endeavor.
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#14 Apr 08 2014 at 8:11 AM Rating: Excellent
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Jophiel wrote:

Out of the mainstream MMORPGs I'm familiar with, Everquest by far had the most non-combat/non-crafting style skills. Things like Safe Fall, Lock Picking, Pickpocketing, Forage, Sense Heading, Alcohol Tolerance, Swimming, Sneak, Hide, a ton of different languages, etc. And spells like summoning light sources, summoning food, levitating, magical scrying eyes, a 'sanctuary' spell to warn if monsters were close and more.

Don't forget, Druids could stop the rain. Smiley: grin

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#15 Apr 08 2014 at 8:18 AM Rating: Good
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So studies are suggesting that more moderate gains in a wider base of demographics will lead to more profits overall. That means a reduced emphasis on combat and an increased emphasis on alternate progression systems. Progression being the key. "Casual" content is tossed around to mean anything non-combat, but non-combat systems can still be deep and interesting.
The diplomacy game in Vanguard was the most unique and interesting alternate progressions I've run into in MMO's. It was basically a board game - you had parley matches. You'd win faction and material stuff, area buffs and the ability to parley with ever more important peoples. You'd lose faction and end up in a fight if your faction dipped too low for your surroundings. It was a good game but limited originally when I played.
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#16 Apr 08 2014 at 9:29 AM Rating: Good
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I'm trying to get filthy rich in XIV. So far it's working. Smiley: grin

Everyone has a different definition of content, too. For some people it's new quests, for others it's new battles, for still others it's new areas to explore or new gear to acquire. (I personally don't put "new clothes" into the content category, but apparently some people do.)

So for a game that serves up a helping of all of those things in each patch, everyone will blow through their little definition of "content" and then claim that it wasn't enough.

Edited, Apr 8th 2014 11:30am by Catwho
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#17 Apr 08 2014 at 9:33 AM Rating: Excellent
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It's not sane.
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#18 Apr 08 2014 at 10:00 AM Rating: Good
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I was listening to that under headphones here at the office. I started singing along.. out-loud. Oops.
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#19 Apr 08 2014 at 11:22 AM Rating: Excellent
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Catwho wrote:
I'm trying to get filthy rich in XIV. So far it's working. Smiley: grin

Everyone has a different definition of content, too. For some people it's new quests, for others it's new battles, for still others it's new areas to explore or new gear to acquire. (I personally don't put "new clothes" into the content category, but apparently some people do.)

So for a game that serves up a helping of all of those things in each patch, everyone will blow through their little definition of "content" and then claim that it wasn't enough.

Edited, Apr 8th 2014 11:30am by Catwho


It all comes down to the design, really.

When all your content sources are completely independent of one another, that's a problem. But when they organically bleed into one another, it's far less likely that players will exhaust content they're interested in, because you remove the access hurdle. But when all your alternative content sources are being implemented as amusing side things to compliment combat (as in, the main rewards are combat oriented, and the content can't stand on its own), it doesn't work.

Using WoW as an example, right now the tradeskills have one purpose - better combat stats. Essentially, you level the craft all the way to cap for one or two specific recipes and then you sort of stop caring, except to make that one recipe that can make money/be used by you.

But that's because the only real content line in WoW is combat.

But if there were more content lines distinct from combat/raiding, tradeskills could naturally become much fuller, and the economy would expand and get more diverse. And they could further expand tradeskills in ways a lot of players would probably be interested in, such as working towards getting their own alchemy lab, say, so they could get higher efficiency on their distillations. Etc.

But the thing is, none of those expansions work until the content is integrated in a way it makes sense. As long as it's combat first, everything else second, it just won't work.
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#20 Apr 08 2014 at 9:12 PM Rating: Excellent
So I've been watching Sword Art Online the last few days. Minus the getting stuck in a virtual world, a total sandbox MMO would be neat.
FFXIV kind of did that, or I felt it did. With just the change of my weapon I could become something else.

It would be neat to have no set "class/job". Want to be a sword wielding, black magic caster, tank? Go for it, train the skills, figure out what works best, do it.
Want to be a shop owner and get rich? Do it.
I guess something like second life, but with that good ol RPG-feel.

As for a game that allows PKing... I would not know. Last time I PKed was back in FFXI before one of the "fixes" that changed the way mobs moved around. Nothing was ever gained from it, other then getting to meet GMs.
Now for open world PvP, the games have been listed.
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#21 Apr 09 2014 at 3:36 AM Rating: Excellent
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But the thing is, none of those expansions work until the content is integrated in a way it makes sense. As long as it's combat first, everything else second, it just won't work.

This is kind of the root of why I've said RP gets mocked and never really leads to anything in other similar conversations, too. There's no really meaningful carrot tied to it other than some warm and fuzzy feelings. Thus, it will indeed get bashed and labeled useless by the "teen male" demographic and then some.

That said, I still care about combat, but I can't really say I like the MMO norm. GW2 and Tera tried to spice things up a bit, but the former suffered from underwhelming skills and selection for me. The latter had a bit of that, too, but I feel like it squandered the potential of glyphs. As a common theme, both required "aiming" alongside positioning. Tab targeting and just watch your missile home in wasn't really a thing, and that's an obvious advantage for ranged attackers if such is present in the PvP sphere.

But call me silly, I'd love to see an MMO, or at least a multiplayer game, use some variant of Tales of Vesperia's combat. Let the players put together those insane infinite combos, be able to dodge/block attacks, and all that jazz. There series has even generally tied move sets to weapons and on occasion has even had skill leveling, too. Give it the FF treatment so you can swap classes with a weapon swap and bam, some longevity there in leveling alone. Take the rest further with meaningful crafting, some land development systems, etc. and perhaps we finally could have a world and not just blocked off locations with combat dummies of specific level ranges.
#22 Apr 09 2014 at 6:55 AM Rating: Excellent
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Seriha wrote:
This is kind of the root of why I've said RP gets mocked and never really leads to anything in other similar conversations, too.

I always figured it was the Mary Sue personalities, maudlin prose, "Son of a vampire, a dragon and a were-kraken" backgrounds and the thin excuse for "My eyes journey like two travelers along the expanses of your white elven skin to rest upon your sweet elf boobies".
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#23 Apr 09 2014 at 8:28 AM Rating: Good
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Sandinmygum the Stupendous wrote:
So I've been watching Sword Art Online the last few days. Minus the getting stuck in a virtual world, a total sandbox MMO would be neat.
FFXIV kind of did that, or I felt it did. With just the change of my weapon I could become something else.

It would be neat to have no set "class/job". Want to be a sword wielding, black magic caster, tank? Go for it, train the skills, figure out what works best, do it.
Want to be a shop owner and get rich? Do it.
I guess something like second life, but with that good ol RPG-feel.

As for a game that allows PKing... I would not know. Last time I PKed was back in FFXI before one of the "fixes" that changed the way mobs moved around. Nothing was ever gained from it, other then getting to meet GMs.
Now for open world PvP, the games have been listed.



This.

It seems anime does better at making MMORPGs than MMORPGs do (Sword art online isnt the only on, .hack was pretty good to), what happened to the days when an mmo player could do whatever they wanted, some cared about raiding and endgame and they did that, others just wanted to be merchants and spent their day hunting monsters and selling loot to players, others spent their time making armor/weapons to sell to players, some were cooks that hunted the ingredient and cooked food to sell and keep players fed, others in guilds worked as spies to spy on rival guilds to get intel (i.e something an technique like listening would be good for) etc etc. With stuff like that it made the world seem more alive, you didnt really need NPCs at all because players could (and in most cases did) provide/supply all the things an NPC would have done).
#24 Apr 09 2014 at 8:30 AM Rating: Decent
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DuoMaxwellxx wrote:
others in guilds worked as spies to spy on rival guilds to get intel (i.e something an technique like listening would be good for)
Could you go back to the Specific General Forums and stop trying to infect the rest of Zam with stupid? Thanks.

Edited, Apr 9th 2014 10:31am by lolgaxe
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#25 Apr 09 2014 at 8:36 AM Rating: Excellent
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I've been playing MMORPGs since '99 and don't remember a time like that. Maybe in the MUDs (which I didn't play) but not in the "modern" 3D MMO era. Yeah, you had some people who liked tradeskills and stuff but the best way to excel at tradeskills was still to be a high level character with access to the best components and +Stat gear to increase your chances at success. Likewise, the best way to play the markets was always to be able to go out and get the stuff that people wanted to buy. Which meant high levels which meant killing things which meant combat. Some people would play the "buy low/sell high" game but 95% of the guys yelling "Sword for sale" had just pulled that sword off some dead monster's corpse.
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#26 Apr 09 2014 at 8:40 AM Rating: Excellent
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Jophiel wrote:
Some people would play the "buy low/sell high" game but 95% of the guys yelling "Sword for sale" had just pulled that sword off some dead monster's corpse.
It's best when there's still blood all over it and a hand clinging on to the weapon.
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#27 Apr 09 2014 at 9:11 AM Rating: Decent
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lolgaxe wrote:
DuoMaxwellxx wrote:
others in guilds worked as spies to spy on rival guilds to get intel (i.e something an technique like listening would be good for)
Could you go back to the Specific General Forums and stop trying to infect the rest of Zam with stupid? Thanks.

Edited, Apr 9th 2014 10:31am by lolgaxe


not stupid at all if a rival guild was planning an ambush on your guild or an attack on your guild headquarters
#28 Apr 09 2014 at 9:12 AM Rating: Decent
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DuoMaxwellxx wrote:
not stupid at all
That wasn't a game technique that was just making a second character and joining the other group.
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#29 Apr 09 2014 at 9:45 AM Rating: Default
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lolgaxe wrote:
DuoMaxwellxx wrote:
not stupid at all
That wasn't a game technique that was just making a second character and joining the other group.



well theres always gonna be other ways to get the job done.
#30 Apr 09 2014 at 3:02 PM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
Seriha wrote:
This is kind of the root of why I've said RP gets mocked and never really leads to anything in other similar conversations, too.

I always figured it was the Mary Sue personalities, maudlin prose, "Son of a vampire, a dragon and a were-kraken" backgrounds and the thin excuse for "My eyes journey like two travelers along the expanses of your white elven skin to rest upon your sweet elf boobies".

Well, that doesn't help, but I personally can't fault people for uncultivated imagination or being lonely and seeking an outlet that way. The former is something that needs refined through experience and experimentation with people at or above their level, much like an artist drawing on a piece of paper. The latter is probably more obvious if you consider online gaming more a nerd culture thing.

On a personal level, I tend to abhor people who sling the Mary Sue/Gary Stu terms around as they're rooted more in destructive observation than actually trying to help a person. Many then go on to try and defend this by saying shaming the offenders should motivate them to be better, but I'm sure there are enough psychological studies out there indicate positive reinforcement will do better. Unfortunately, similar winds up manifesting in other MMO aspects like the stupid "learn to play" rhetoric or the long standing casual vs. hardcore war and how dev philosophies embrace or even contradict certain things.
#31 Apr 10 2014 at 1:20 PM Rating: Good
DuoMaxwellxx wrote:
Im not looking at EVE cause while it is an MMO its not an RPG.


Its not a Fantasy RPG, but it most certainly is an RPG. You take on a role, you advance your character through skills in that role, and you play the game in that role. RPG isn't just reserved for Swords and Shields, Magic and Dragons.

Quote:
It seems anime does better at making MMORPGs than MMORPGs do (Sword art online isnt the only on, .hack was pretty good to), what happened to the days when an mmo player could do whatever they wanted, some cared about raiding and endgame and they did that, others just wanted to be merchants and spent their day hunting monsters and selling loot to players, others spent their time making armor/weapons to sell to players, some were cooks that hunted the ingredient and cooked food to sell and keep players fed, others in guilds worked as spies to spy on rival guilds to get intel (i.e something an technique like listening would be good for) etc etc. With stuff like that it made the world seem more alive, you didnt really need NPCs at all because players could (and in most cases did) provide/supply all the things an NPC would have done).


Again the game you are looking for is EVE, since it is the only MMO at least since ive played them which was with Ultima way back when 97 or 98. (I didn't get into the text based MUD's but then again thats not really a game, more like narration and story time.) No other mainstream MMO has ever offered the sandbox stuff you seem to think existed, and I have ****** away thousands of dollars and hours playing pretty much all of them since the genre burst on to the scene. I can't think of any time period in the last ~15 years that you seem to think existed.

If you want all of the things you have listed, go play EVE **** I might even be able to get you a 21 day free trial if I can remember how to get buddy codes. It has everything you want, I guess with exception of Swords, shields magic and dragons.

You won't find what you want in a game otherwise because none currently exist at the moment other than EVE. It is pretty near 100% player driven content, in pretty much every aspect. The only game that might be remotely similar is H1Z1 which is only in the "we have an idea for this game and we might have it ready for a trial run by an unset date" (4-6 weeks 20$ early access on steam)

But that one is going to be FTP, and is going to be a shooter MMORPG, since you think FTP games suck, and RPGs can only be of the Fantasy Genre you might not like that sandbox either.
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#32 Apr 10 2014 at 11:02 PM Rating: Good
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It's kind of silly to say animes wind up better MMOs, too. I've seen SAO, .hack, and even Log Horizon. Sure, there's a coat of MMO paint over the whole, "We're trapped in the game!" rhetoric, but rarely, if ever, do these titles truly touch upon the monotony and douchebaggery of the communities. As well, various "passive" skills come up more as a matter of plot convenience than a selling point. Kirito needs to find someone? Oh, hey, he leveled his tracking skill. Go fig.

Coincidentally, there are .hack games. And they suck when it comes to the game play department.
#33 Apr 10 2014 at 11:04 PM Rating: Default
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I never once said RPGs could only be in the fantasy genre.. I can name plenty that arent fantasy. However what I DO say about RPGs are they are usually turn based (though some action RPGs DO exist... kingdom hearts for example), and they have stats, and youre stats (and your strategy and brain) are more of a determining factor or whether or not you win or lose a fight or dodge a hit than your reflexes, and well EVE definitely seems to require some degree of reflexes.

but yes I do LOVE to read about EVE everything Ive heard about it sounds wonderful. Like that battle that caused $200,000 in damage and The Guiding Hand incident, all that sound slike stuff Id LOVE to see happen in other games, even if i was on the receiving end of it, at least the world would feel alive.

But then theres articles like the one linked below...

http://www.polygon.com/features/2014/2/24/5419788/eve-online-thrilling-boring
#34 Apr 11 2014 at 12:05 AM Rating: Excellent
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idiggory the Fussy wrote:
There are plenty of gamers out there who are really interested in operating shops/farms/towns, for instance. And there's plenty there to make those systems deep and interesting, with extensive progression.
The whole point of an MMO is to make lots of in game money doing stuff like fiddling with prices on the auction house and collecting lots of ore or whatever while you're out exploring. Then you trade your in game currency for real money stuff and buy all the fancy dodads from the cash shop. Once you're had your fill collecting skimpy costumes and fancy dragons you move on to a different game.

Explore, harvest, trade, exploit, flaunt, rinse, repeat. Smiley: nod
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#35 Apr 11 2014 at 7:32 AM Rating: Good
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Seriha wrote:
I've seen SAO, .hack, and even Log Horizon. Sure, there's a coat of MMO paint over the whole, "We're trapped in the game!" rhetoric, but rarely, if ever, do these titles truly touch upon the monotony and douchebaggery of the communities.
I can't imagine why a show slated for like ten hours of total run time would have to cut out some of the more monotonous aspects of a game genre. I'd also ask if by saying you've seen, do you mean you've seen a few screen shots or promotional images of the shows, or maybe some fan art? Because SAO was like every other episode was dealing with douches.
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#36 Apr 11 2014 at 7:36 AM Rating: Excellent
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I need a show set in an MMORPG world where two guys spend five hours looking for a healer so they can grind some levels. That would be compelling television.
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#37 Apr 11 2014 at 7:41 AM Rating: Good
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And don't get me started on how movies are so unrealistic with their not showing people sleeping for eight hours.
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#38 Apr 11 2014 at 7:46 AM Rating: Excellent
Jophiel wrote:
I need a show set in an MMORPG world where two guys spend five hours looking for a healer so they can grind some levels. That would be compelling television.


The smash hit Harold and Kumar try to find a healer!

Followed by the sequel Harold and Kumar try and find a tank.


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#39 Apr 11 2014 at 7:49 AM Rating: Good
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Yeah, SAO was definitely primarily about all the other players being ****** I've only just started Log Horizon, but that seems to be a pretty clear theme as well...

Really, the most significant difference of these scenarios should be obvious - they're an immersive experience in a way video games are not right now. That is a big change when it comes to content development.
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#40 Apr 11 2014 at 4:49 PM Rating: Good
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lolgaxe wrote:
Seriha wrote:
I've seen SAO, .hack, and even Log Horizon. Sure, there's a coat of MMO paint over the whole, "We're trapped in the game!" rhetoric, but rarely, if ever, do these titles truly touch upon the monotony and douchebaggery of the communities.
I can't imagine why a show slated for like ten hours of total run time would have to cut out some of the more monotonous aspects of a game genre. I'd also ask if by saying you've seen, do you mean you've seen a few screen shots or promotional images of the shows, or maybe some fan art? Because SAO was like every other episode was dealing with douches.

I'm talking about sh*t like elitist number crunching, guild requirements/applications, loljob mentalities, casual vs. hardcore drama, and all the stuff that essentially requires the MMO mechanics in question to actually exist as a point of contention to begin with. People can be ********** murderers, and thieves without all that, sure, but for the most part, I'd be comfortable in saying one could swap "MMO setting" with "generic fantasy world" and you wouldn't lose a whole **** of a lot in the presented plots.

But more on point, I can certainly understand why hours of killing colibri would make terrible television. It made terrible gaming, too. SAO's "raid" at the world tree disappointed me terribly. LH occasionally tried to portray a sense of tactics like when fighting the bandit leader guy or conveying Shiroe's teachings through Minori, but combat ultimately took second fiddle in the show's presentation. With MMOs primarily being combat engines with fluff built on top, it's only natural there's a disconnect here if you instead try to make story priority in a show.

Heck, it reminds me of the Tales of the Abyss anime. The Tales games are practically all about their combat systems, and while this anime adaptation wasn't terrible, I was disappointed we didn't see all that much fighting.

Edited, Apr 11th 2014 6:52pm by Seriha
#41 Apr 11 2014 at 5:00 PM Rating: Good
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I'm talking about sh*t like elitist number crunching, guild requirements/applications, loljob mentalities, casual vs. hardcore drama, and all the stuff that essentially requires the MMO mechanics in question to actually exist as a point of contention to begin with.


I feel like these were all represented in SAO. We had newbs and noobs and elitists and average players. Endgame raiders, crafters, people who just played casually, etc.

I'm not nearly far enough into Log Horizon to judge that one, but I felt like the ridiculous "save the girl from the other city" arc was pretty representative of the fact that the main characters were hardcore players.
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#42 Apr 11 2014 at 5:15 PM Rating: Good
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It seems anime does better at making MMORPGs than MMORPGs do (Sword art online isnt the only on, .hack was pretty good to), what happened to the days when an mmo player could do whatever they wanted, some cared about raiding and endgame and they did that, others just wanted to be merchants and spent their day hunting monsters and selling loot to players, others spent their time making armor/weapons to sell to players, some were cooks that hunted the ingredient and cooked food to sell and keep players fed, others in guilds worked as spies to spy on rival guilds to get intel (i.e something an technique like listening would be good for) etc etc. With stuff like that it made the world seem more alive, you didnt really need NPCs at all because players could (and in most cases did) provide/supply all the things an NPC would have done).


Again the game you are looking for is EVE, since it is the only MMO at least since ive played them which was with Ultima way back when 97 or 98. (I didn't get into the text based MUD's but then again thats not really a game, more like narration and story time.) No other mainstream MMO has ever offered the sandbox stuff you seem to think existed, and I have ****** away thousands of dollars and hours playing pretty much all of them since the genre burst on to the scene. I can't think of any time period in the last ~15 years that you seem to think existed.


Star Wars Galaxies actually had all that.
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#43 Apr 12 2014 at 12:17 AM Rating: Good
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I've been playing MMORPGs since '99 and don't remember a time like that. Maybe in the MUDs (which I didn't play) but not in the "modern" 3D MMO era. Yeah, you had some people who liked tradeskills and stuff but the best way to excel at tradeskills was still to be a high level character with access to the best components and +Stat gear to increase your chances at success. Likewise, the best way to play the markets was always to be able to go out and get the stuff that people wanted to buy. Which meant high levels which meant killing things which meant combat. Some people would play the "buy low/sell high" game but 95% of the guys yelling "Sword for sale" had just pulled that sword off some dead monster's corpse.


Playing the markets can be pretty lucrative too.
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#44 Apr 12 2014 at 4:39 AM Rating: Decent
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idiggory the Fussy wrote:
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I'm talking about sh*t like elitist number crunching, guild requirements/applications, loljob mentalities, casual vs. hardcore drama, and all the stuff that essentially requires the MMO mechanics in question to actually exist as a point of contention to begin with.


I feel like these were all represented in SAO. We had newbs and noobs and elitists and average players. Endgame raiders, crafters, people who just played casually, etc.

Eh, I'm just being picky in regards to how deep they go. Saying there were people on the front lines handling the level clears while Kirito ****** around solo doesn't exactly say much for raiding or even guilds. The whole beta tester/beater thing was also pretty much forgotten once they beat the first boss. A lot of it really is just vague connecting the dots that MMO players themselves may understand, but outsiders won't.

As for LH:
The rescue does indeed help cement the fact that Shiroe and his friends were endgame players prior to the expansion release, but focus soon shifts to Minori and the other kids with their general struggles of finding synergy and basically beings noobs. They try to mix some political drama in with the NPCs, but the cast we started with just largely becomes background support and I do find that annoying. Toss in the last few episodes being so focused on a student:teacher relationship crap and it just feels like so much wasted potential.

Of course, there's a second season in the works, just as SAO is also getting another one around the same time. I'm more interested in LH, but not because it involves MMO allusions. And, well, Nureha boobs.
#45 Apr 12 2014 at 9:23 AM Rating: Excellent
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Playing the markets can be pretty lucrative too.

Sure, but being able to get stuff yourself (for free) AND play buy low/sell high still beats only buying and selling and trusting in the supply to be there. There's a lot more bajillionaire end game characters than there are bajillionaire level twos.
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#46 Apr 12 2014 at 9:48 AM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
Timelordwho wrote:
Playing the markets can be pretty lucrative too.

Sure, but being able to get stuff yourself (for free) AND play buy low/sell high still beats only buying and selling and trusting in the supply to be there. There's a lot more bajillionaire end game characters than there are bajillionaire level twos.


Well, obviously, but correlation != causation. It takes a lot of time to reach bajillionaire status, most people are going to get some characters to endgame by then. You don't generally play the AH by actually just sitting at the AH for long periods, particularly not in games that allow addons.

You do need start-up capital. That can come from selling raw goods, from questing, or some combination of the two.

But, otherwise, most people who make money by playing the AH aren't wasting time gathering raw goods (at least in the games I play). Gathering raw materials has a much lower return on time spent, and playing the AH is a ton of profit for minimal effort (if you know what you're doing, at least). I can only comment on how it goes in EVE, WoW, and FFXIV, though.

EVE, in particular, is noteworthy, since Business, Industry, and Mining are all separate specializations with their own skills. Many people who play markets don't invest into Mining at all (because Mining is boring). I'd wager most invest into Industry (if only to get their own cargo ships), but I do know players who spend all their time PVPing and only invested into business to play markets, which gets them PLEX (for free access to the game), and all their ships/ammo/modules.

It's a preferred strategy, because Business has the best training time:profit ratio, and that means they can keep training their PVP skills instead.

Of course, plenty of players also roll Indy/Mining alts, instead, so there's that.
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#47 Apr 12 2014 at 9:50 AM Rating: Excellent
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Sure, but we weren't talking about EVE (in fact the OP keps ranting against it) but rather some mythical fantasy-based MMORPG world from an imagined past where players became "merchants" rather than take a combat/leveling oriented track.
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#48 Apr 12 2014 at 10:15 AM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
Sure, but we weren't talking about EVE (in fact the OP keps ranting against it) but rather some mythical fantasy-based MMORPG world from an imagined past where players became "merchants" rather than take a combat/leveling oriented track.


Ah, okay. Yeah, no fantasy MMO I can remember had business as a fleshed-out play style. Playing the AH could easily fully fund your character, but the actual content production of the game has always been in the PVE/PVP content area.
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#49 Apr 12 2014 at 10:27 AM Rating: Excellent
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More to it, he was "remembering" a time when warriors would go out and collect loot and bring it back to sell to merchants who would then sell it to other warriors. But it rarely worked like that even in the dawning age of (3D) MMORPGs before auction houses and automated trading where people would sit at the Eastern Commonlands tunnel in Everquest and shout "Flowing Black Silk Sash for sale!" until someone ran up to them and gave them thousands of coin. While some people did sit around and flip merchandise, I'd wager that 95% of the exchanges were done directly, warrior to warrior as it were without any "merchant" middleman. The scenario he's remembering just never existed.

Edited, Apr 12th 2014 11:28am by Jophiel
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#50 Apr 12 2014 at 10:59 AM Rating: Decent
idiggory the Fussy wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
Sure, but we weren't talking about EVE (in fact the OP keps ranting against it) but rather some mythical fantasy-based MMORPG world from an imagined past where players became "merchants" rather than take a combat/leveling oriented track.


Ah, okay. Yeah, no fantasy MMO I can remember had business as a fleshed-out play style. Playing the AH could easily fully fund your character, but the actual content production of the game has always been in the PVE/PVP content area.


Thats kinda the catch 22 the problem most people have with EVE is there is no direction, no reason. When everything becomes player driven people who don't have the capacity to create content for themselves find the game incredibly boring and not fun. While you have a plethora of different playing styles available to you, there is no means to and end so to speak. You don't train up mining skills so you can make that one awesome item for you and your friends for raiding, because there are no raids, unless you make raids.

So while its neat that you can do whatever you want for the most part, there is no one pointing you in a direction. Compared to WoW for example where there is no real indepth player driven stuff, you at least have a hand guiding you around and clear objectives to overcome.

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#51 Apr 12 2014 at 11:31 AM Rating: Excellent
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Stalker rdmcandie wrote:
While you have a plethora of different playing styles available to you, there is no means to and end so to speak. You don't train up mining skills so you can make that one awesome item for you and your friends for raiding, because there are no raids, unless you make raids.

Sounds a bit like Rust. You log in and some dude shoots you. Then you learn to stay alive long enough to learn all the weapon and gear blueprints so you can make guns, armor and forts and then... kill other people because there's nothing else to do thus necessitating their need to learn to make guns, armor and forts.

Edited, Apr 12th 2014 12:32pm by Jophiel
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