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#102 Jun 12 2013 at 8:45 PM Rating: Default
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TirithRR wrote:
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The fact that they're tricking people makes it those people stupid Smiley: wink


Fixed. Smiley: wink


Yay the wink game!!!!!! Who won???


Anyways, DLC sucks.
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#103 Jun 12 2013 at 10:21 PM Rating: Decent
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No, it isn't. You can make an RPG with only one character. You can make an RPG with thousands of characters to talk to. And then there's plenty in between.

You're taking an extremely limited viewpoint of what constitutes an RPG, and for arbitrary reasons.


To me a RPG is about character development and playing a role. As you said, the number of people involved doesn't matter.

Maybe I just didn't get far enough in the game, but the choices and progression I made were forced. I was handed enough points to fill every upgrade possible and I wasn't given the choice of who I wanted to use and when. If the game didn't provide the characters to choose from that's one thing, but forcing my choices on me is not me playing a role, it's me having a story forced down my throat. The choices I made/wanted to make had no bearing on the story or the game. And to further remove the decision element, the entire game took place on rails. That's not an RPG, that's an adventure heavy action/adventure game.
#104 Jun 12 2013 at 10:33 PM Rating: Excellent
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Raolan wrote:
Maybe I just didn't get far enough in the game, but the choices and progression I made were forced. I was handed enough points to fill every upgrade possible and I wasn't given the choice of who I wanted to use and when. If the game didn't provide the characters to choose from that's one thing, but forcing my choices on me is not me playing a role, it's me having a story forced down my throat. The choices I made/wanted to make had no bearing on the story or the game. And to further remove the decision element, the entire game took place on rails. That's not an RPG, that's an adventure heavy action/adventure game.
This is by far the most common complaint of FFXIII, even among those that enjoyed it will agree. I'm not trying to push FFXIII, but you definitely didn't stick with it long enough. After the first 20 hours or so, everything open up. Characters finally are unlocked, you're not walking down some long hallway, you finally get some side quests, and you start to have fights where you can't just blindly push X.

Of course, SE tried to go in the opposite direction with FFXIII-2 giving you a lot more freedom, but that caused other problems.

Edited, Jun 12th 2013 11:34pm by xypin
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#105 Jun 12 2013 at 10:36 PM Rating: Good
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It didn't help that most of the story was buried in the encyclopedia. If I'm stuck walking down a boring *** hallway fighting repetitive mobs, you better at least tell me a good story while I'm doing it. Having to go look for the story outside of the main game is just not acceptable.
#106 Jun 12 2013 at 10:38 PM Rating: Excellent
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Oh god I forgot about that part , Yes every other CS they added new entries and you needed to read them to understand wtf was going on. THat was a pain in the **** and just pulled you out of the game completely.
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#107 Jun 12 2013 at 11:33 PM Rating: Excellent
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Where did the people who made FFX go? They knew how to make an awesome FF series game.

You want cash, develop FF tactics II. Talk about missing the obvious.

This game looks like it was made by fans of Devil May Cry.
#108 Jun 13 2013 at 4:03 AM Rating: Excellent
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xypin wrote:
Raolan wrote:
Maybe I just didn't get far enough in the game, but the choices and progression I made were forced. I was handed enough points to fill every upgrade possible and I wasn't given the choice of who I wanted to use and when. If the game didn't provide the characters to choose from that's one thing, but forcing my choices on me is not me playing a role, it's me having a story forced down my throat. The choices I made/wanted to make had no bearing on the story or the game. And to further remove the decision element, the entire game took place on rails. That's not an RPG, that's an adventure heavy action/adventure game.
This is by far the most common complaint of FFXIII, even among those that enjoyed it will agree. I'm not trying to push FFXIII, but you definitely didn't stick with it long enough. After the first 20 hours or so, everything open up. Characters finally are unlocked, you're not walking down some long hallway, you finally get some side quests, and you start to have fights where you can't just blindly push X.

Of course, SE tried to go in the opposite direction with FFXIII-2 giving you a lot more freedom, but that caused other problems.

Edited, Jun 12th 2013 11:34pm by xypin


I gave XIII a good 2 or 3 attempts to get through it and didn't even get that far. I know I've become more demanding and unforgiving of games over the years, but wasting 20 hours of my time before the game gets good isn't excusable anymore. Honestly, I don't think it was ever excusable.
#109 Jun 13 2013 at 6:20 AM Rating: Good
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Raolan wrote:
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No, it isn't. You can make an RPG with only one character. You can make an RPG with thousands of characters to talk to. And then there's plenty in between.

You're taking an extremely limited viewpoint of what constitutes an RPG, and for arbitrary reasons.


To me a RPG is about character development and playing a role. As you said, the number of people involved doesn't matter.

Maybe I just didn't get far enough in the game, but the choices and progression I made were forced. I was handed enough points to fill every upgrade possible and I wasn't given the choice of who I wanted to use and when. If the game didn't provide the characters to choose from that's one thing, but forcing my choices on me is not me playing a role, it's me having a story forced down my throat. The choices I made/wanted to make had no bearing on the story or the game. And to further remove the decision element, the entire game took place on rails. That's not an RPG, that's an adventure heavy action/adventure game.


Your concept of an action/adventure game is unlike any other definition for the genre I've ever seen.

The reality of RPG games is that they don't really have any characterizing mechanics or design systems. All they really demand (as you pointed out) is that you play as one (or more) character(s), that character development occurs, and that the world is deep and immersive.

The mechanics by which the above happen are really irrelevant to defining the genre. You can have a completely open-world RPG that doesn't have any combat at all. You can have a game that's just one long hallway with a lot of combat. And everything in between.

And there's leeway in that definition. Skyrim's character development is 100% up to the player. There's no guaranteed development, just potential for it, if that's what you're interested in. On the other hand, there are games like FFXIII (and FFX, and FFVII, etc.) where the development is going to happen independently of player choice.

Action-Adventure games are very much defined by their mechanics, most notably combat mechanics. The role of character/setting/plot is important to these games, but not in the same way as an RPG.

The best way I can explain it is that RPGs are about the characters, their mission (if there is one), and the world. And Action games are about the gameplay, with Adventure denoting the style of the story (quest-based* as the major mechanic).

*Obviously both RPGs and Adventure games can be about major, central quests. But Adventure games make that quest the real feature. The meta-value of the journey to Zanarkand was more about Tidus' (and the rest of the party's) experiences and perceptions of the world. The meta-value of Link's quest to defeat Gandondorf was the defeat of Ganondorf. Does that make sense?
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#110 Jun 13 2013 at 7:55 AM Rating: Good
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My playlist just started playing Liberi Fatali, and it got me in the mood to talk music.

Something I feel like never gets mentioned about FFXIII is its score. Which is shocking, because FF is almost as well-known for its music as it is its graphics.

I adore its music. Absolutely love it. I feel like the score perfectly fits every zone, that the emotion of a scene was almost always perfectly in sync with the music, and I think they did a fantastic job of taking their core melodies and translating them across scenarios and styles.

I love how sometimes it's super soft and melodic, I love how sometimes it's jazzed up. I love the two different versions of the Chocobo theme.

For me, music in the FF series goes FFXIII > FFX > FF7 > FF8.

My all-time favorites don't follow that trend, though, which is worth pointing out. My top 2 favorite songs come from FFX (To Zanarkand, Hymn of the Fayth). I don't really want to continue trying to decide after that. And I can only name those as my top 2 because they're so different and I love them for completely different reasons.

Though FFXIII easily has my favorite battle music.

Anyone want to suddenly feel a ridiculous amount of nostalgia? If so, here you go.


[EDIT]

......The FFXI music literally just triggered some flashbacks for me. That was unexpected. Now I feel emotionally exhausted and like I desperate need to resub. HELP ME.

Edited, Jun 13th 2013 10:11am by idiggory
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#111 Jun 13 2013 at 8:19 AM Rating: Default
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Don't resub. FFXIV is on its way
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#112 Jun 13 2013 at 8:19 AM Rating: Good
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Raolan wrote:
The choices I made/wanted to make had no bearing on the story or the game. And to further remove the decision element, the entire game took place on rails. That's not an RPG, that's an adventure heavy action/adventure game.
You pretty much described every Final Fantasy game. What decisions do you make that really have any bearing on the story? You picked the white haired man instead of the green haired woman to be in your party? You used an axe instead of a sword?
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#113 Jun 13 2013 at 8:46 AM Rating: Decent
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lolgaxe wrote:
Raolan wrote:
The choices I made/wanted to make had no bearing on the story or the game. And to further remove the decision element, the entire game took place on rails. That's not an RPG, that's an adventure heavy action/adventure game.
You pretty much described every Final Fantasy game. What decisions do you make that really have any bearing on the story? You picked the white haired man instead of the green haired woman to be in your party? You used an axe instead of a sword?


Haha yea. Choice that affects the story is actually something fairly recent in games like Knights of the old republic, mass effect, skyrim, and Fallout 3. FinaFantasy choices have never really had any influence on the events of the story.
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#114 Jun 13 2013 at 9:30 AM Rating: Excellent
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FFX-2 is the only one that springs to mind that had a good number of choices in it.
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#115 Jun 13 2013 at 10:37 AM Rating: Excellent
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lolgaxe wrote:
Raolan wrote:
The choices I made/wanted to make had no bearing on the story or the game. And to further remove the decision element, the entire game took place on rails. That's not an RPG, that's an adventure heavy action/adventure game.
You pretty much described every Final Fantasy game. What decisions do you make that really have any bearing on the story? You picked the white haired man instead of the green haired woman to be in your party? You used an axe instead of a sword?


Most RPG choices don't have a significant impact on the story, if any at all, but they at least give the illusion of one. XIII couldn't even be bothered with that.
#116 Jun 13 2013 at 10:47 AM Rating: Good
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I literally can't remember a single choice in a main series FF game that even gave you the illusion of control.

And to be honest, I have trouble taking seriously a critique that a game fails to maintain the illusion of player control. Maybe it's because I just never engaged with that illusion. It's always been clear to me that the game was dictating where I went and what I should do.

I never once noticed the "hallway" feature of the game until people started discussing it online (and I stopped avoiding discussions for fear of spoilers). Not because I wasn't aware that there was only one way to go, but because I've always been aware that there was only one way to go in these style of RPGs.

It's not an open-world game. None of them have been. I just find it crazy to criticize it for failing to be what it never tried to be.

If you WANT open-world games, that's cool. I sometimes want them, too. And sometimes I want a game that's going to tell me a more carefully planned and refined story.
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#117 Jun 13 2013 at 10:52 AM Rating: Excellent
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These are such horrible reasons to dislike XIII. "It was too linear!" Well, yeah. That's the nature of role playing games. They're all pretty much linear. "There was no exploration!" What, you mean empty map space that serves no purpose whatsoever? "Lack of strategy!" You mean where you use either the physical attack or the strongest magic you have? The only time you change up what you do is during a boss battle, and lo and behold with the Paradigm Shifts you did it there as well. All XIII did was remove the minutia and streamlined what everyone was doing anyway, and made it a little more interesting to watch between those boss battles. What was another one ... oh, yeah. "There aren't any NPCs to talk to!" True, but that had a little something to do with how everyone either wants you dead or thinks you're going to kill them.

Really, XIII was mediocre at best, but more because the characters were drab and the story wasn't all that compelling. The reasons people give for not liking it are just moronic. What I don't get is how a game that was just as linear, had the same lack of strategy in combat, an even more mediocre at best story and drab characters like VII is hailed as the greatest thing since a Fleshlight, yet XIII is a sin against humanity.
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#118 Jun 13 2013 at 12:33 PM Rating: Excellent
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BTw just to clarify:

JRPG- Usually focuses on per-determined characters who already have their own back stories and personalities. The Story is usually more linear in nature. I Describe it as playing a book or playing a movie. You are out watching as the story unfolds.

WRPG- Main characters usually are a blank slate, you choose the stats and characteristics of said hero. Usually more of a choose your own adventure with dialog trees and supporting cast but the story revolves around you the main character and as you progress thro9ugh a story changing it as it unfolds.

I dislike WRPG's myself I always have the feeling I'm missing something or I'm doing something wrong as I'm given to much choice. Also I hate slogging though dialog trees I find them dull.


Also compared to FF13, FF7 (which I dont finds the greatest game) was WAY less linier, you could go off and revist old town if you so wanted, you could explore the map and find hidden secrets as soon as you unlocked chocobos/the little bronco. Also You had way more control over each character, what spells they had for any fight, how each person played (Load up Barret with Mag+ to make him a caster, or load up Aerith with crit/atk and make her a melee.) Also you dont run around casting you most damaging spell because you're limited by MP each fight you have to decide whether to cast your big spell but maybe be out of mana by the end of the dungeon, or just plain attack but risk taking more damage that you have to spend mana or items to heal.

I dont remember any of that in FF13, I remember holding X and paradim shifting every once in a while, the difficulty was cheap only becuase you couldnt control 2 members of your party, so any combos you wanted to do were totally on the AI to initiate. You didnt get to choose any part of the character grown it was just a big spiral up, and there were no secrets or hidden stuff during the game really to talk about no exploring a new map or world just one long corridor.

Yes Older RPG could be played that way, but do you remember coming across fort condor for the first time being like "Whats this" or finding Yuffie for the first time, or the hermit cave. But in FF13 you werent given the choice to explore and nothing unexpected really ever happen it was always straight ahead with maybe a small branch for treasure.

Im not saying FF7 was the best game ever, but it was a **** of alot better then 13
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#119 Jun 13 2013 at 1:54 PM Rating: Good
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yeah I don't want it to be so action RPG - On the bright side, I can play awesome turn based goodness on my handheld gaming devices, where the kind of RPGs I like tend to remain plentiful

A Shining Force game was released on the 3DS eshop today, I are excite.

Gnu wrote:

You want cash, develop FF tactics II. Talk about missing the obvious.


Holy smokes yeah, 3DS is overdue for a FF tactics game.

Edited, Jun 13th 2013 12:57pm by Olorinus
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#120 Jun 13 2013 at 1:56 PM Rating: Excellent
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I dislike WRPG's myself I always have the feeling I'm missing something or I'm doing something wrong as I'm given to much choice. Also I hate slogging though dialog trees I find them dull.

STFU and DA:O, *****.
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#121 Jun 13 2013 at 2:07 PM Rating: Good
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I installed it chill chill, Ill get around to it sooner or later. Later being sooner.
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#122 Jun 13 2013 at 3:31 PM Rating: Decent
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lolgaxe wrote:
These are such horrible reasons to dislike XIII. "It was too linear!" Well, yeah. That's the nature of role playing games. They're all pretty much linear. "There was no exploration!" What, you mean empty map space that serves no purpose whatsoever? "Lack of strategy!" You mean where you use either the physical attack or the strongest magic you have? The only time you change up what you do is during a boss battle, and lo and behold with the Paradigm Shifts you did it there as well. All XIII did was remove the minutia and streamlined what everyone was doing anyway, and made it a little more interesting to watch between those boss battles. What was another one ... oh, yeah. "There aren't any NPCs to talk to!" True, but that had a little something to do with how everyone either wants you dead or thinks you're going to kill them.

Really, XIII was mediocre at best, but more because the characters were drab and the story wasn't all that compelling. The reasons people give for not liking it are just moronic. What I don't get is how a game that was just as linear, had the same lack of strategy in combat, an even more mediocre at best story and drab characters like VII is hailed as the greatest thing since a Fleshlight, yet XIII is a sin against humanity.


By exploration I mean walking from one place to another where I was allowed to wander around. No, it wasn't a Lewis and Clark expedition, but it gave the impression of at least letting me do what I wanted, even if for a little while. XIII could have been played with 3 buttons, walk forward, Paradigm shift, and attack, and you didn't even have to choose an attack because the game did it for you. I like getting lost in the side areas of the other FF games just to see the world they built, or find Chocobo forests, or Moogle hangouts. ****, in VI they had hidden characters that would join your party if you found them. I liked playing Blitz ball (I know I need help), and Tetra Master, and the other card/mini games in some of the other FFs, none of which existed in XIII. At one point I wanted to grind for a bit so I could get stuff to level up a couple weapons (another idiotic system) and I couldn't even do that. You weren't allowed to grind in a JRPG.

As far as VII, I've said for years VII was the split in the FF fan base. I hated the linear pathways as much as I did in XIII.
#123 Jun 13 2013 at 3:37 PM Rating: Good
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Raolan wrote:
By exploration I mean walking from one place to another where I was allowed to wander around. No, it wasn't a Lewis and Clark expedition, but it gave the impression of at least letting me do what I wanted, even if for a little while. XIII could have been played with 3 buttons, walk forward, Paradigm shift, and attack, and you didn't even have to choose an attack because the game did it for you. I like getting lost in the side areas of the other FF games just to see the world they built, or find Chocobo forests, or Moogle hangouts. ****, in VI they had hidden characters that would join your party if you found them. I liked playing Blitz ball (I know I need help), and Tetra Master, and the other card/mini games in some of the other FFs, none of which existed in XIII.
Side quests, grinding, and ultimate weapons existed in FFXIII.
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#124 Jun 13 2013 at 3:54 PM Rating: Default
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We might should get back on OP topic and talk about how the SquareEnix presents footage of FFXV today looked amazing. Best one i've seen so far. It looks like a combo of many games but looks great. This might be my favorite one so far. Can't wait to play it
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#125 Jun 13 2013 at 3:54 PM Rating: Good
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Raolan wrote:
lolgaxe wrote:
These are such horrible reasons to dislike XIII. "It was too linear!" Well, yeah. That's the nature of role playing games. They're all pretty much linear. "There was no exploration!" What, you mean empty map space that serves no purpose whatsoever? "Lack of strategy!" You mean where you use either the physical attack or the strongest magic you have? The only time you change up what you do is during a boss battle, and lo and behold with the Paradigm Shifts you did it there as well. All XIII did was remove the minutia and streamlined what everyone was doing anyway, and made it a little more interesting to watch between those boss battles. What was another one ... oh, yeah. "There aren't any NPCs to talk to!" True, but that had a little something to do with how everyone either wants you dead or thinks you're going to kill them.

Really, XIII was mediocre at best, but more because the characters were drab and the story wasn't all that compelling. The reasons people give for not liking it are just moronic. What I don't get is how a game that was just as linear, had the same lack of strategy in combat, an even more mediocre at best story and drab characters like VII is hailed as the greatest thing since a Fleshlight, yet XIII is a sin against humanity.


By exploration I mean walking from one place to another where I was allowed to wander around. No, it wasn't a Lewis and Clark expedition, but it gave the impression of at least letting me do what I wanted, even if for a little while. XIII could have been played with 3 buttons, walk forward, Paradigm shift, and attack, and you didn't even have to choose an attack because the game did it for you. I like getting lost in the side areas of the other FF games just to see the world they built, or find Chocobo forests, or Moogle hangouts. ****, in VI they had hidden characters that would join your party if you found them. I liked playing Blitz ball (I know I need help), and Tetra Master, and the other card/mini games in some of the other FFs, none of which existed in XIII. At one point I wanted to grind for a bit so I could get stuff to level up a couple weapons (another idiotic system) and I couldn't even do that. You weren't allowed to grind in a JRPG.

As far as VII, I've said for years VII was the split in the FF fan base. I hated the linear pathways as much as I did in XIII.


"Wandering" in this case literally just means "I could take so many paths around the same enclosed area of the map" though. Except that this makes literally no difference, sans the fact that one route is the fastest.

If you actually felt like this was giving the impression of exploring, I really don't know what to tell you. I never had that response. It was something I had to do, to be sure I wasn't missing anything, and that's about it. I VASTLY preferred the shift away from the crappy World Maps. If I'm going to be aimlessly walking from point A to point B, fighting battles, then you're **** right I want the landscape to be beautiful and interesting.

I mean, you LIKE the world map? I fundamentally don't understand this. I hate world maps. They're bland, they signal a complete halt to the story while you transition areas. They were such an aggravating waste of time to me. I much preferred playing in town/dungeon environments, always. I explored maps because I had to, in case I passed by an item.

I've never once, in my life, been placed on a world map and had the experience of "time to explore." It has universally been the feeling of "god dammit, now I have to suffer through this before I get to the next part that matters."

I have no problem with open world games. If they want to make an open world FF game, I'll be interested to try it. But I'm not fool enough to look at an area surrounded by unpassable mountains on one side, and a cave entrance on the other, and think "Wow, look at everything I can explore!"

Quote:
I liked playing Blitz ball (I know I need help), and Tetra Master, and the other card/mini games in some of the other FFs, none of which existed in XIII. At one point I wanted to grind for a bit so I could get stuff to level up a couple weapons (another idiotic system) and I couldn't even do that. You weren't allowed to grind in a JRPG.


I have no problem with mini games - I've played a lot of Blitz in my time. But Blitz didn't make sense. How the **** was I in Luca playing Blitzball when there was a price out on my head? How did I get there?

Also, you can absolutely go back and grind through mobs in FFXIII? [:puzzled:][:puzzled:][:puzzled:] Mobs reappear after you stray too far from their spawn location (which isn't far). Yeah, you don't just run in a circle anymore. You just run 10 meters in opposite directions between mob groups.

Arguably the best farming spot in the entire game has you running back and forth between an easily-ambushed Behemoth and a save point. It's quick, and if you can keep really tight paradigm locations, you can JUST manage to kill him when you can first encounter him. It's definitely a skill issue, even with the ambush, though.

And the point where proceeding through an area gives you enough points to completely progress your crystarium grids ends fairly quickly. That occurs in the beginning so that you can get a base set of skills, and experiment with the new roles. Once they're confident you'll have hit the point where you're actually starting to understand how to use them, you won't be capping them in each area. You have to start choosing what you want to level.

And if you want to gain access to additional roles on a character, that's an even larger investment. One that can pay off quite well (Lightning Sentinel, for instance, is an excellent dodge tank), but you're going to have to work for it.
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#126 Jun 13 2013 at 4:03 PM Rating: Decent
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I guess all of that stuff comes into play after the 20 hour barrier to entry. I guess if the first 20 hours weren't pure crap I would have enjoyed it, but despite forcing myself to sit down and play it, I wasn't even willing to endure that much.

And yes, I like most of the world maps in FF. The first thing I do when I get a boat/airship is go and see what I can find.
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