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#202 Jun 14 2013 at 10:31 AM Rating: Decent
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The Internet is angry.

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#203 Jun 14 2013 at 10:35 AM Rating: Good
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jtftaru wrote:
The Internet is angry.



Oh **** that was funny.
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#204 Jun 14 2013 at 10:36 AM Rating: Good
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electromagnet83 wrote:
Apparently the forums are clamoring with Microsoft fanboys starting to justify why drm is okay. Ive never seen such a dedicated "crap all over me" group of bottom feeders.


That's because Microsoft is finally starting to pull their head out of their asses (albeit ridiculously slowly) and actually try and market their features, rather than just listing off horrible, horrible restrictions without even bothering to highlight how this could work for the audience.

I don't like Always On DRM when it is actually just in place for DRM. But if an online connection is integral to the core experience of the game, that makes sense. That's why it's fine to have MMOs require you to be online, but it's not okay for a solely single-player experience to have the same requirement.

If Microsoft can come up with some system that makes the online connection something substantially desirable in its own right, their problem goes away. They get their free DRM slipped in with this "feature." Even better, they can get the essence of DRM without actually mandating the online requirement. People COULD play a game used, but then they lose out on the super awesome online bonus stuff.

Of course, that means they need to come up with something that's intrinsically linked to being online that makes the whole experience better. And you know what? I can think of plenty of things that could be that cool, at least in the context of RPGs.

But bluntly forcing it into the public's eyes, purely for the sake of DRM, is an absolutely idiotic move. They didn't even bother trying to cage it in terms of what the connection was doing for you - they just announced it would need to connect and that was that.

[EDIT]

Also, used games aren't nearly as important as the amount of attention they get suggests they would be.

According to Gamestop, in 2012 they made:

Global sales: $8.89 billion.
Gross profit: 27.4%
Percentage of those sales which are used games: 27.4%
Gross profit from used games: 41.8%

So, of that $8.89 billion in sales, it was a profit of 27.4%, or $2.43 billion. 41.8% of that was from used games, or $1 billion, globally, across all games. NOTE: This also contains all systems and peripherals, and new hardware represents 15% of their sales ("other" is 17.3%).

The vast majority of their sales are in the form of new games. The problem is that selling new games isn't that profitable. And they aren't in control of that, because the publisher sets the price.

Globally, the video game industry brings in $65 billion a year. That $1 billion that one company is making isn't making or breaking anyone.

For one, because there's absolutely no reason to think that 100% of that $1 billion would enter into the pockets of publishers anyway. We'd need to know what the percentage of people would buy a game at full price, even if they couldn't get it at the $60 price point. So you can already remove a fair amount of that cash out of the video game industry.

Then you need to remember that there are people buying new games using the profits from trading in old titles. I have no clue how common that is. I've only ever traded in games when strapped for cash, but I also know people who trade them in when done, for credit, which they later use to buy a new game. The publisher makes the same amount of cash regardless of if you hand Gamestop cash or use credit.

And considering you get a MUCH larger return for games when using credit, I imagine that it's not an insignficant population. So there's some formula along the lines of "For every X games traded in, Y new games are purchased." I have no clue what it is.

But even if we say it's $600 million being taken out of publisher pockets, globally, across all games, that's really not that much. And I'd wager that the end sum is less than that.

/shrug.

Edited, Jun 14th 2013 1:04pm by idiggory
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#205 Jun 14 2013 at 12:37 PM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:

I'd assume the answer to "why not just cut back" was "The visual fidelity and feature sets we expect from games now come with sky high costs. Assassins Creed games are made by thousands of devs."


I think that this is a red herring though. People expect a certain kind of game to have sky high fidelity etc - but if you make a fun game people will buy it regardless of the fidelity - look at minecraft. If studios are having trouble it's because they have forgotten that fun sells. But yeah, keep pumping tens of millions of dollars into a slight variation of the same game, over and over again - and then cry when people don't want to pay full retail price for it.

I mean really, the same shooting game, the same football game, the same hockey game, etc. every year.

Also, please keep selling digital copies at full price for ages. That will definitely hurt used game sales. What I see at EB Games is most used games only sell for $5 less than full price. I can't help but think if the studios were smart they would discount the digital versions right at release - because each digital sale is a sale that can't be turned into a used sale.

#206 Jun 14 2013 at 12:50 PM Rating: Good
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Yeah, but "if they were smart" is really the issue with that argument. Smiley: lolSmiley: lolSmiley: lol

You try convincing an executive to drop $5 off the price of their most profitable item (since digital release cuts out the distributor).

Hell, "if they were smart" games would:

-Get an appropriate level of marketing support, particularly where social media is concerned, rather than relying entirely on gaming news to do the bulk of the work.
-Launch at a market-appropriate price, instead of defaulting to $60, and actually drop in price over time to encourage new sales.
-Disconnect digital prices from physical price, reap the benefits of laziness.

I mean, think about all the pre-launch marketing for Mass Effect?

The distribution of social media marketing is free, and the ROI for all associated costs are generally huge. But for whatever reason, the gaming industry is atrocious at capitalizing on it. Which is really, really odd, considering the demographics they typically market to.

Twitter and Tumblr campaigns, alone, would be huge for driving up sales.
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#207 Jun 14 2013 at 12:54 PM Rating: Good
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Olorinus the Ludicrous wrote:

I think that this is a red herring though. People expect a certain kind of game to have sky high fidelity etc - but if you make a fun game people will buy it regardless of the fidelity - look at minecraft. If studios are having trouble it's because they have forgotten that fun sells. But yeah, keep pumping tens of millions of dollars into a slight variation of the same game, over and over again - and then cry when people don't want to pay full retail price for it.


I wonder how much Minecraft grossed. They sold 20 million copies total as of Jan 2013, but how much is the game? 20 bucks? ~ $400million gross?

Black ops 2 (latest slight variation of the same game etc) grossed $1 billion in 15 days.

The people that buy those games want the latest in graphics. I want my Battlefield 4 to be graphically phenomenal, ultra realistic. There were a lot of games on the Wii that I wanted to play but just could not get past the ps2 graphics.
#208 Jun 14 2013 at 1:00 PM Rating: Excellent
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I don't think graphics is the motivator for moving on to the next CoD game. I think the motivator is being on the leaderboards, the new maps, the new guns, etc.
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#209 Jun 14 2013 at 1:00 PM Rating: Excellent
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Olorinus the Ludicrous wrote:
People expect a certain kind of game to have sky high fidelity etc - but if you make a fun game people will buy it regardless of the fidelity - look at minecraft.

Minecraft was a classic case of lightning in a bottle. You can't really use it as a model any more than WoW makes a good example for other MMORPGs. For every Minecraft there are literally hundreds of indie games that people may describe as "fun" but which don't sell a fraction as many copies.

Here's a list of the best selling PC games. Most of the those titles, especially the top half ones, are major release games backed by major publishers. Even stuff that looks dated now (Sims 2) was done well for the time and tech when it came out. What's not on there is much representation from the "low graphics but fun!" indie crowd. Minecraft... Terraria is down the list... Binding of Issac and Runaway: A Road Adventure at 1 million each (and BoI was in a Humble Bundle). Witcher series but those put the time into graphics. I'm probably missing some but the whole idea that games compete purely on the basis of "It's fun" just isn't accurate. Technology, publishing and marketing all play a sizable role.

Plus, Minecraft has sold ~20 million copies across all platforms (PC, Xbox, Linux, Android, iOS, etc) since its launch in March 2011 (according to Wiki, ~4 mil from that number was actually sold between 2009-2011). COD: Black Ops 2 sold ~10 million copies in its first two weeks. COD:BO2 shouldn't be our gauge either but, if you're shooting for the moon, you want COD numbers not Minecraft numbers.

[Edit: I see KTurner beat me on the COD comparison while I was off looking at numbers]


Edited, Jun 14th 2013 2:36pm by Jophiel
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#210 Jun 14 2013 at 1:08 PM Rating: Excellent
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
I don't think graphics is the motivator for moving on to the next CoD game. I think the motivator is being on the leaderboards, the new maps, the new guns, etc.

Once again, I'm going off my anecdotal sample size but the kids in my bailiwick all talk about the graphics. And, even if the improvements aren't great, they all seem convinced that it's a huge jump each time.

Then I point, call them dirty console peasants with their 30fps 720p resolutions and laugh and laugh and laugh.
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#211 Jun 14 2013 at 1:22 PM Rating: Excellent
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
Yeah, but "if they were smart" is really the issue with that argument. Smiley: lolSmiley: lolSmiley: lol

I'm taking a different spin on this, they're really only going after those with large amounts of disposable income. If you're the type that cares about used games, doesn't have a large room with empty space for kinect-thingy, a super spiffy internet connect, lives in a poorer country, and/or isn't going to buy DLC stuff they don't particularly care about your business. Premium product for a premium market only. Along that same line of thought, the people who fund those F2P MMOs by buying crazy amounts of sparkle ponies and skimpy costumes for every character every month.

At least that's where I feel like they are trying to go with it. Whether or not they actually have that kind of product and can pull it off is an entirely different problem.

Edited, Jun 14th 2013 12:29pm by someproteinguy
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#212 Jun 14 2013 at 1:30 PM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:


[Edit: I see Idiggory beat me on the COD comparison while I was off looking at numbers]

Edited, Jun 14th 2013 2:01pm by Jophiel


Im no programmer but its something like this:

if not joph
then {random user ID}
end
#213 Jun 14 2013 at 1:34 PM Rating: Excellent
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Smiley: laugh

My error. He posted twice, before and after you, and obviously my brain is lazy.
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#214 Jun 14 2013 at 1:35 PM Rating: Excellent
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oops

Edited, Jun 14th 2013 2:35pm by Jophiel
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#215 Jun 14 2013 at 1:37 PM Rating: Good
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someproteinguy wrote:
idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
Yeah, but "if they were smart" is really the issue with that argument. Smiley: lolSmiley: lolSmiley: lol

I'm taking a different spin on this, they're really only going after those with large amounts of disposable income. If you're the type that cares about used games, doesn't have a large room with empty space for kinect-thingy, a super spiffy internet connect, lives in a poorer country, and/or isn't going to buy DLC stuff they don't particularly care about your business. Premium product for a premium market only. Along that same line of thought, the people who fund those F2P MMOs by buying crazy amounts of sparkle ponies and skimpy costumes for every character every month.

At least that's where I feel like they are trying to go with it. Whether or not they actually have that kind of product and can pull it off is an entirely different problem.

Edited, Jun 14th 2013 12:29pm by someproteinguy


Yeah, but that goes against the one-in-every-home sentiment. Premium items sell because they're premium items. It's a status issue.

You don't want to target the premium market and then make them feel like it's standard fare. You want them to feel like it's something that will be a topic of conversation, something they can lord over their dinner guests, friends, and coworkers.

That's why I'm so confused by their marketing. It seems all over the place, and doesn't ever actually suit the product. "All in one entertainment system" that only functions in the US and still requires a cable box. "One in every home" but launching at an extremely high price point for what it is. "Must connect to the internet" but charges you for anything you try and DO with the internet.

It's just a mess.
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#216 Jun 14 2013 at 1:47 PM Rating: Excellent
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
That's why I'm so confused by their marketing. It seems all over the place, and doesn't ever actually suit the product. "All in one entertainment system" that only functions in the US and still requires a cable box. "One in every home" but launching at an extremely high price point for what it is. "Must connect to the internet" but charges you for anything you try and DO with the internet.

I dunno, it's almost as if there's a bit of an internal struggle how exactly they wanted to portray their product at the conference. I suppose on one hand coming out and saying "this is a premium product, we're only targeting about 10% of you people" wouldn't go over very well at E3 (not that it'd really be any worse at this point...). So how do you not put off the unwashed masses while at the same time not marketing to them? Maybe they were expecting to have more exclusive content ready to show how "awesomely premium" their product is, but it wasn't ready on time? On the other hand, there could be internal debate over whether or not they really want to try and get one in every home, or what exactly they even have they're selling, or whether or not they have squirrel nuts for brains.

In the end I suppose the mere fact we're even having this debate is a sure sign of poor marketing. Smiley: lol

Edited, Jun 14th 2013 1:28pm by someproteinguy
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#217 Jun 14 2013 at 2:42 PM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:


Plus, Minecraft has sold ~20 million copies across all platforms (PC, Xbox, Linux, Android, iOS, etc) since its launch in March 2011 (according to Wiki, ~4 mil from that number was actually sold between 2009-2011). COD: Black Ops 2 sold ~10 million copies in its first two weeks. COD:BO2 shouldn't be our gauge either but, if you're shooting for the moon, you want COD numbers not Minecraft numbers.



Totally, but the development cost differential has to count for something. At any rate, if their raking in money hand over fist that undermines their argument that they just can't afford to have used game sales.
#218 Jun 14 2013 at 3:44 PM Rating: Excellent
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Neither is a good example, like I said. No other indie game is selling close to 20 million copies. No other franchise is taking in a billion dollars in sales in its first two weeks. The only point of the comparison is to say that the most popular "ugly but fun!" indie game still doesn't hold a candle to the most popular AAA franchise title.
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#219 Jun 14 2013 at 3:49 PM Rating: Excellent
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Portal and Portal 2 were pretty successful and that's using an engine that is 9 years old.
#220 Jun 14 2013 at 4:04 PM Rating: Excellent
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I don't think anyone would say that the graphics in Portal 2 aren't better than in Portal 1. The environments alone obviously took far more work than the Portal 1 test chambers.
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#221 Jun 14 2013 at 5:31 PM Rating: Good
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Portal 1 and 2 both use the Source engine, but they don't use the same build of the Source engine. Same engine as Half Life, Team Fortress, and Left 4 Dead.

But they aren't using the same build of that engine, which is why you can still see a big graphical jump from one to the next.
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#222 Jun 14 2013 at 8:31 PM Rating: Excellent
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jtftaru wrote:
The Internet is angry.


#223 Jun 14 2013 at 8:49 PM Rating: Good
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Are you ****ing kidding me?

I had been seeing references to Mountain Dew and Doritos, but I didn't realize this was a thing...
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#224 Jun 14 2013 at 9:02 PM Rating: Excellent
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I signed up only because I drink Mt Dew. Doritos not so much. A bag of Cooler Ranch every once in a while. W/e If I win one Ill sell it for a PS4 Im not that way.
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#225 Jun 14 2013 at 11:08 PM Rating: Decent
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Despite the fact that I will be directly impacted by the online thing, I really don't care. And I don't care whatsoever about the used game argument. If someone were to give me one I'll probably just make a little tinfoil box for the connect, since that's my only real gripe.
#226 Jun 15 2013 at 7:18 AM Rating: Excellent
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