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#1 Apr 08 2013 at 6:50 AM Rating: Good
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This article seems to be making a big deal about issues that arise with EVERY new game console release.

But the "point" that makes the least sense to me is this one:
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Tablets and smartphones

The next-generation games consoles aren’t just competing against older consoles and OCs for attention, but are also going to be facing completion from devices that didn’t exist back when the Xbox 360 and PlayStation 3 was released.

Smartphones and tablets are big, and they have three significant advantages over games consoles:

The hardware is significantly cheaper
They are portable
Games are also much cheaper

The iPhone and iPad in particular will put considerable pressure on any new console, as these devices have had a big had in shaping the mobile gaming market. But let’s not forget Android, which is also a very capable gaming platform.


How is a 400-700 dollar smartphone/tablet "significantly" cheaper? And does anyone really think that tablets/smartphones are competition to PC and Console games? I mean, maybe if your "games" are angry birds and farmville. But I don't see tablets playing Bioshock Infinite or any of these new releases.
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#2 Apr 08 2013 at 7:08 AM Rating: Excellent
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You don't need a $400-$700 phone to play games. I believe there are even smartphones that are "free" with a contract.
A lot of people already have phones that can play games, even if they don't care for them. Smartphones aren't quite the majority yet, but it's definitely heading in that direction.
Gaming is more expensive overall- not only do you need the system, but many games worth playing can be $60+. Phone games are generally free or under $5.

Finally, those that think smartphones are competing against true gaming doesn't understand video games. In the past, playing games on your phone really wasn't an option, so it might be possible that there are people out there that won't invest in the next generation simply because they NOW have the phone option, but I see that being less than 1% of total sales. If anything, smartphones have a huge impact on the DS and PSVita. In this case, it's not so much about the quality of the game as it is about having access to mobile gaming.
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#3 Apr 08 2013 at 7:30 AM Rating: Decent
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You don't need a $400-$700 phone to play games. I believe there are even smartphones that are "free" with a contract.


Nothing's "free". Those supposedly free phones are paid for several times over by the increased prices of contract plans. Try buying one of those free phones without a contract and tell me again it isn't a $400+ phone.


As far as the article, it just goes to show that the people writing these things have no clue what they're talking about. The number one concern of most console and PC gamers who play mobile games is lack of physical controls, specifically lack of feedback on the controls.

Mobile does pose a threat to console and PC games, but not for the reasons listed. The ROI on a mobile game is significantly higher than it is on a major platform. These games are designed to waste small chunks of time, not huge blocks of it. So the overall game, and cost of development, is smaller. Also with the lower prices, people are willing to impulse buy these games. The game doesn't have to be a major success to sell well, and doesn't even have to sell well to see a return.

If you look at the atrocity of FF:All The Bravest, or all the other games SE has ported to iOS, you can see the problem.
#4 Apr 08 2013 at 7:34 AM Rating: Good
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Raolan wrote:
Mobile does pose a threat to console and PC games, but not for the reasons listed. The ROI on a mobile game is significantly higher than it is on a major platform. These games are designed to waste small chunks of time, not huge blocks of it. So the overall game, and cost of development, is smaller. Also with the lower prices, people are willing to impulse buy these games. The game doesn't have to be a major success to sell well, and doesn't even have to sell well to see a return.


I agree with that. Similar to Reality TV vs Scripted TV Shows.
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#5 Apr 08 2013 at 7:34 AM Rating: Excellent
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TirithRR wrote:
And does anyone really think that tablets/smartphones are competition to PC and Console games?
Well, they're cheaper, more readily available, and last longer.
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#6 Apr 08 2013 at 7:43 AM Rating: Excellent
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People already own smartphones (and to a lesser degree, tablets). If those devices are taking care of their gaming needs, they don't have any incentive to pay an additional $400+ for a console. So that much makes sense. But I don't see most phone/tablet gamers as the types to have bought consoles anyway. Maybe a Wii if they're the casual sort but not a PS3/PS4 or Xbox-Whatever. Not immediately, anyway.

I think brushing it off as "Angry Birds" is a mistake. You have increasingly complex games on mobile devices and usually for much cheaper than console games. You have companies like Gameloft making cheap knock-offs of AAA titles (Modern Combat, Asphalt, etc) that are likely "good enough" for a lot of people. You have companies like EA and SE making ports to mobile devices. As mobile devices get easier to output to a TV or if something like the Ouya takes off, I could see it taking the place of a console for a lot of more casual people down the road.


Edited, Apr 8th 2013 8:44am by Jophiel
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#7 Apr 08 2013 at 7:52 AM Rating: Excellent
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Raolan wrote:
Quote:
You don't need a $400-$700 phone to play games. I believe there are even smartphones that are "free" with a contract.
Nothing's "free". Those supposedly free phones are paid for several times over by the increased prices of contract plans. Try buying one of those free phones without a contract and tell me again it isn't a $400+ phone.
...which is the reason for the quotes and comment of WITH A CONTRACT.
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#8 Apr 08 2013 at 8:33 AM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
I think brushing it off as "Angry Birds" is a mistake. You have increasingly complex games on mobile devices and usually for much cheaper than console games. You have companies like Gameloft making cheap knock-offs of AAA titles (Modern Combat, Asphalt, etc) that are likely "good enough" for a lot of people. You have companies like EA and SE making ports to mobile devices. As mobile devices get easier to output to a TV or if something like the Ouya takes off, I could see it taking the place of a console for a lot of more casual people down the road.


I've not been really impressed by AAA Knock-offs. I think they are about as much of a threat to the true titles as Asylum films are to theater releases. The people that watch them instead of the actual release aren't really the the ones that would have paid to watch the actual release if Asylum didn't make their film.

Maybe in the last half of this decade, tablets/smartphones will evolve into a portable console. A phone that you can set down, connect to your 45" HD TV and various controllers to and play video games on. But I think that Sony, Nintendo, and eventually Microsoft, will be the pioneers into that service. I think Sony is already trying, more so than Nintendo, but things are just not quite ready for it.

But even then, I still think the console will be offered from those same companies. Cause I still think that at any given time frame, the PC/Console size allows for more power compared to the similar timed mobile offerings. And I think that will remain true for the foreseeable future. Even if things get smaller and faster, more room would equate to more of that smaller, faster, thing.

Edited, Apr 8th 2013 10:34am by TirithRR
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#9 Apr 08 2013 at 8:55 AM Rating: Good
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Tablet games can be just as addicting as console games.

Consoles need to up the ante - more physical stuff, more realistic stuff, more bigger and better and immersive special effects - specially if they're asking 10x the price for the console game versus a tablet game.

But future games shouldn't be exclusive to one platform. There's no reason I can't buy a cheap add-on to do farming, crafting or trading with my character on my tablet and save the combat, dungeon crawls, raids etc for my PC/console.



Edited, Apr 8th 2013 4:55pm by Elinda
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#10 Apr 08 2013 at 8:56 AM Rating: Excellent
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TirithRR wrote:
Maybe in the last half of this decade, tablets/smartphones will evolve into a portable console. A phone that you can set down, connect to your 45" HD TV and various controllers to and play video games on.

You can do that now, assuming your mobile device has a mini/micro-HDMI output and you have a couple Bluetooth controllers. Most people just aren't aware or aren't interested. I think that we'll see (if we haven't already) mobile devices that can display on a TV wirelessly and that will be the big breakthrough point.

There's obviously a place for casual "console" play and, for a lot of people, there's a place for AAA knock-offs at 1/10th the price. Hell, witness all the shovelware that makes it onto consoles as is. Seeing a game like Asphalt or Dead Trigger will be enough for a good number of people to say "Yeah, it has racing and zombie games that look pretty cool."


Edited, Apr 8th 2013 10:00am by Jophiel
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#11 Apr 08 2013 at 9:19 AM Rating: Excellent
You can play Bioshock Infinite on a tablet.

Granted, its a $1500 tablet with a $250 controller & an extra battery, but the technology is only getting cheaper. Smartphones & tablets have already "killed" portable gaming devices and while I dont expect them to kill the console market anytime soon, throw PCs into the mix & I expect the next gen consoles to be much less successful than the previous generation's.
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#12 Apr 08 2013 at 9:38 AM Rating: Excellent
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Elinda wrote:
Tablet games can be just as addicting as console games.

That would be my fear too. Something that's fun and addictive is great competition for something that's flashy, fun and addictive. Especially if the spiffy graphics cost too much more. Lets say you download a game onto your phone at work, and play it on the way home. You get home and that evening you're playing the $8 phone game and not the $70 console game. The $70 game takes you longer to complete, and you suddenly are buying less traditional games. There are certainly plenty of gamers out there who will pay a premium for pretty content, but that's not everyone, and there are plenty of gamers on a budget.

You also have more online content than ever before as well. Given that everyone has a computer already (and chances are if you're into video games you probably have a pretty decent one), why not take advantage of the multitude of free-to-play games online? There are dozens of MMOs and countless other random things. Add in sites that have thousands of old computer games available for free, and there's goes another chunk of the market.

None of the other platforms can really compete well with what a dedicated gaming console does best, but there are plenty of other options these days that can be just as enjoyable. Especially if those first graphics-heavy first-person-shooter kinds of games aren't tops on your list anyway.


That is one spiffy looking thingy. Smiley: drool
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#13 Apr 08 2013 at 10:11 AM Rating: Decent
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I have yet to find any cellphone game that comes close to the gaming experience you get on PC or Console. Even with the Xperia (which has a gamepad on it) I still hardly ever play any games on it because most cellphone games are crap. The few games that do look good on cellphone generally have crap controls.
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#14 Apr 08 2013 at 10:17 AM Rating: Good
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no kidding... seems like a non-issue to me.
#15 Apr 08 2013 at 10:32 AM Rating: Excellent
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Elinda wrote:
Tablet games can be just as addicting as console games.

Consoles need to up the ante - more physical stuff, more realistic stuff, more bigger and better and immersive special effects - specially if they're asking 10x the price for the console game versus a tablet game.

But future games shouldn't be exclusive to one platform. There's no reason I can't buy a cheap add-on to do farming, crafting or trading with my character on my tablet and save the combat, dungeon crawls, raids etc for my PC/console.


I've been saying for the last year that Square Enix could release "FFXI Crafting" as a stand alone Android/iOS game and at least half of the FFXI players would plunk down $2.99 one time to buy it, and hook it into our existing FFXI accounts. Just have it give access to the Jeuno AH, the guilds, and our inventories, and let us do nothing but craft via a simplified GUI/text lines. Have the finishing mini game in there as the only graphical component, and make it just as mean and punishing as the fishing game in FFXI.

My crafts would all be capped INCLUDING fishing if such a thing existed.
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#16 Apr 08 2013 at 10:55 AM Rating: Good
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I don't see how there's any real competition between consoles and tablets/phones. If anything, we'll see how companies complement their console releases with tablet/phone games. I mean, it's already being done. Dead Space, for one, has a mobile game.

Mobile platforms have their place. I dick around on my 3DS, phone, or tablet during commercials when I'm watching TV (though I can just as easily play some Torchlight 2 or other computer games on my laptop). I just don't see how consoles are in direct competition with tablets. The experiences are just different, at least to me.
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#17 Apr 08 2013 at 1:37 PM Rating: Good
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I think they overstate the competition but there is something to be said about the fact that it used to be if you wanted to game you needed a PC or, before home PCs were common, a console to do it.

Now, more and more people have computers that are totally fine to game on. Even if they can't really handle the top newest titles on high settings (or even at all) there are thousands of games they can play with their computers. And now they also have phones/tablets that satisfy their gaming urge...

really I think a lot of those people were not core gamers to begin with, as people noted... but I do think they are having an impact. As someproteinguy said, the biggest impact might be people who have consoles that buy less games for them because they are otherwise occupied with cheap games.

That said we can all attest that not having time to actually finish games doesn't always stop one from buying them... still though I think for a lot of budget conscious people they will spend more time on mobile games and therefore less money on console games.

I've spent an awful lot of time on my tablet playing minecraft. I actually like the interface way better than the PC version. (I hate gaming with a mouse). Baldur's gate for ipad is terribly optimized, but it does show that larger scale games are possible for the platform. I personally don't really give a fig for impressive graphics and I know I can't be the only one - so if that is what next gen consoles are banking on... well they really should look at 3ds vs vita to see how that bet works out.
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#18 Apr 08 2013 at 2:43 PM Rating: Excellent
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It does make me wonder what the market looks like for something like a Wii 2 versus PS4. The tablet-like devices might not be ready, or really ever, able to compete when it comes to a high-end graphics kind of gaming (you can always fit more power into a bigger box and such). So something like a PS4 looks at a marketplace which has shrunk a bit, but one that is still very much PC vs console.

On the other hand something akin to a Wii 2, with lower graphics and movement-orientated or simpler games, marketed more towards kids, may have significant competition from a tablet. My 4 year old has one of these, and she gets a lot of mileage out of it. It's reasonable to assume as she gets older (7, 10, etc.) and looking to upgrade to something Wii-like, that tablet gaming may well be something that's just as natural to her as a controller was to us way back when.
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#19 Apr 08 2013 at 3:00 PM Rating: Good
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that makes sense. my 5yo doesnt play the wii at all anymore, but instead plays a lot of the 'puzzle' games on a tablet like Where's My Water and some Flow (??) game.

When he's not playing Little Big Planet or Minecraft of course.
#20 Apr 08 2013 at 6:27 PM Rating: Good
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also this facebook game is awesome: https://apps.facebook.com/organtrail/

and I never say that about facebook games.
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When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.

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#21 Apr 08 2013 at 7:50 PM Rating: Decent
someproteinguy wrote:
It does make me wonder what the market looks like for something like a Wii 2 versus PS4. The tablet-like devices might not be ready, or really ever, able to compete when it comes to a high-end graphics kind of gaming (you can always fit more power into a bigger box and such). So something like a PS4 looks at a marketplace which has shrunk a bit, but one that is still very much PC vs console.

On the other hand something akin to a Wii 2, with lower graphics and movement-orientated or simpler games, marketed more towards kids, may have significant competition from a tablet. My 4 year old has one of these, and she gets a lot of mileage out of it. It's reasonable to assume as she gets older (7, 10, etc.) and looking to upgrade to something Wii-like, that tablet gaming may well be something that's just as natural to her as a controller was to us way back when.


That's a really flawed thought process in my opinion. Sony and microsoft are much more likely top jump ship before nintendo first of all. You have to look at tablet gaming the same way as let's say face book games. Except tablet games are starting to put out Vita/DS level gaming experiences. You put that up against the odds people having a smart phone verse a hand held videogame it's devastating prospect. More and more people are going to give up what's quickly becoming way more graphics then most people care about if they can get the same enjoyment out of something they'll have on them anyways(A smart phone) or around the house anyways(A tablet.)

Considering how this industry is constantly seeing closing studios, I don't see how the prospect of two new systems that will most likely be more expensive to work with sense they are capable of higher graphics causing an unspoken demand to up the graphics is going to help things. I don't think this medium is ready to be constantly hefting around a Hollywood budget expectation for it's mainstream games.

I don't think Sony or microsoft will step down any time soon. However I do think they'll step out long before nintendo simply becuase they don't specialize in consul/game making. Especially if sony has to do with the ps4 what they did with the ps3.(Sell it at a lost at the launch) I just don't think either company being as big as they are will attempt to stay in what's becoming now more then ever a very niche item.

Edited, Apr 9th 2013 12:10am by Laxedrane
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#22 Apr 09 2013 at 10:48 AM Rating: Good
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im trying to understand how what you wrote has anything to do with what you quoted.
#23 Apr 09 2013 at 1:27 PM Rating: Good
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Laxedrane the Irrelevant wrote:


Considering how this industry is constantly seeing closing studios, I don't see how the prospect of two new systems that will most likely be more expensive to work with sense they are capable of higher graphics causing an unspoken demand to up the graphics is going to help things. I don't think this medium is ready to be constantly hefting around a Hollywood budget expectation for it's mainstream games.


I agree with this completely. I honestly think the obsession with graphics is hurting gaming overall. What I feel like is being lost is the sense that fun is more important than graphics. Look at minecraft for goodness sakes! The guy is raking in the dough with a game that retails for significantly less than a typical game, that has some of the crappiest graphics in the modern era.

Yet instead of trying to improve on the core gaming experience studios seem to be all just all graphics graphics graphics.
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When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.

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#24 Apr 09 2013 at 2:15 PM Rating: Good
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What I feel like is being lost is the sense that fun is more important than graphics. Look at minecraft for goodness sakes! The guy is raking in the dough with a game that retails for significantly less than a typical game, that has some of the crappiest graphics in the modern era.


I disagree. Setting aside the term "graphics" for a bit - visuals are just one of many factors that can contribute to why a game is fun; they're not separate entities.

Really, I don't even like the idea of graphics on a linear scale from poor to good based on fidelity. I'd argue that part of Minecraft's appeal is in its visuals. They've got a retro, abstracted feel that's quaint and non-threatening, and by their nature, it takes some real construction work or a clever mind to turn them into something identifiable. Their rudimentariness/simplicity is pleasing.
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#25 Apr 09 2013 at 10:05 PM Rating: Good
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im trying to understand how what you wrote has anything to do with what you quoted.

What I was trying to say is that if Tablets and smart phones keep becoming more and more capable of delivering experiences satisfactory to the average person and eventually the average gamer. It's more of a threat to Sony and Microsoft then it is to Nintendo becuase A.) They're large corporations and making games aren't there concentration or their major cash cow. B.) they have much less exclusive titles to justify their system. Many gamers including myself buy Nintendo systems in anticipation of the next zelda or mario or smash or what have you. It's especially threatening since even their system exclusive games are very rarely in house productions with the IP exclusively owned by Sony or Microsoft. Finally, C.) Nintendo very intelligently went with the family angle on the Wii and it paid off. The wii is much more standard in homes then a PS3 or 360 and Sony/Microsoft are having a hard time appealing to that audience.

So as the gaming audience becomes more and more fragmented, Sony and Microsoft are going to feel it the worse. While Nintendo still has making money in this market figured out for now. That makes tablets/smartphones causing more fissures a greater threat to them then Nintendo.

Edited, Apr 10th 2013 12:09am by Laxedrane
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#26 Apr 09 2013 at 10:29 PM Rating: Good
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I believe just the opposite. Because the xbox/playstation focus console/hardcore games, they'll stick around longer.

You talk about fragmenting gamers, but I hardly see that as the case. The Wii may have stolen a small group of people from other consoles, but a huge part of its exclusive audience (those that only bought a Wii) were a brand new market. Sure, mobile/casual games are on the rise, but they target this new audience, not the core gaming community.

Honestly, while it may not be a huge player for another 10 years, I see cloud gaming a bigger opponent to console gaming than the mobile/casual market. First, consoles really need to make the switch to digital gaming that PC have already done and I bet we'll see this in the next generation. After that, once internet in the US starts to expand/improve, we'll really start to this area take off.
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#27 Apr 10 2013 at 6:26 AM Rating: Excellent
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Family-friendly, party-type games that don't focus on being on the bleeding edge of graphics are the kind of game probably best suited for tablets. As we get into the point in time when everyone in the family has a tablet or smartphone, a centralized console to game together becomes less important.
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#28 Apr 10 2013 at 7:03 AM Rating: Good
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Spoonless wrote:
Family-friendly, party-type games that don't focus on being on the bleeding edge of graphics are the kind of game probably best suited for tablets. As we get into the point in time when everyone in the family has a tablet or smartphone, a centralized console to game together becomes less important.
Along this line, have board games been making a comeback? Not the pictionary party type games but the more involved Catan like games.

My kids and their friends are into all kinds of them recently.
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#29 Apr 10 2013 at 7:18 AM Rating: Excellent
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I know Catan's been wildly successful. I don't know if any others are. I suspect it's a bit like the Magic: the Gathering boom in the 90's: one really big successful game and two dozen other games wishing they could be the next big thing.
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#30 Apr 10 2013 at 9:46 AM Rating: Excellent
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The Wii was a great response for Nintendo, and if nothing else it showed they have a good amount of innovation/flexibility to respond to the changes. Even with increased competition from tablets I don't see it sinking Nintendo. However I'm not sure something like a Wii 2 is really what they're looking for going forward. Something between that and a tablet and a DS perhaps? MarioPad anyone?

Microsoft has plenty of potential in a tablet market. Windows 8, as much as I hate it, would be a step in that direction. There's plenty of opportunity for them to get into that market even if the Xbox 720 isn't really the greatest thing in gaming. There's plenty of opportunity for them to compete with Apple, etc. in the new market.

Sony is the one that strikes me as the one that has the most riding on a new gaming system. In some sense I'm not surprised they're the first to announce one. They're forcing Microsoft and Nintendo to compete or GTFO in a sense. If it was up to the other two part of me wonders if we'd even be seeing a new generation console this soon.


Nevermind... Smiley: rolleyes

Edited, Apr 10th 2013 8:56am by someproteinguy
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#31 Apr 10 2013 at 9:49 AM Rating: Good
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I think you're forgetting the WiiU.
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#32 Apr 10 2013 at 9:52 AM Rating: Excellent
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Smiley: blush

Smiley: facepalm

I think so too. Smiley: lol

Where's my coffee, it's going to be one of those days... Smiley: oyvey

Edited, Apr 10th 2013 8:54am by someproteinguy
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#33 Apr 10 2013 at 10:03 AM Rating: Good
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in his defense it is pretty forgettable.
#34 Apr 10 2013 at 10:04 AM Rating: Good
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I don't know about that. Get a couple people together and same some booze and it's pretty fun.

Guess I'm gonna need some of that coffee as well.

Edited, Apr 10th 2013 12:11pm by lolgaxe
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#35 Apr 10 2013 at 10:10 AM Rating: Excellent
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lolgaxe wrote:
I don't know about that. Get a couple people together and same booze and it's pretty fun.

That brings back memories. N64 Mario cart, bottle of cheap liquor, a deck of cards. Those were the days...
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#36 Apr 10 2013 at 10:21 AM Rating: Good
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lolgaxe wrote:
I don't know about that. Get a couple people together and same some booze and [insert any activity here] is pretty fun.


#37 Apr 10 2013 at 10:35 AM Rating: Good
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KTurner wrote:
lolgaxe wrote:
I don't know about that. Get a couple people together and same some booze and [insert any activity here] is pretty fun.




I'd like to try Spaceteam drunk, I think.

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#38 Apr 10 2013 at 10:38 AM Rating: Excellent
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Part of what nintendo did right with the wii and the 3ds is the price point. It costs less to buy 2 3DSes than to buy 1 vita and a memory card, and they are way cheaper than an ipod touch or any kind of tablet as well. So it is a lot more family friendly in that respect, especially with games like Mario Kart only requiring 1 copy of the game for people to play together.

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Olorinus the Ludicrous wrote:
and they are way cheaper than an ipod touch or any kind of tablet as well.

Sure, but if you're displaying it on a TV then you can just use a phone. And while a Wii might be cheaper than a smartphone, the phone is likely a purchase they're going to make anyway (and subsidize via their carrier plan). A brief survey of specs and processors indicates that my Galaxy S2, for example, is more powerful than my Wii.
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Belkira wrote:
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#40 Apr 10 2013 at 10:53 AM Rating: Good
Terrorfiend
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Olorinus the Ludicrous wrote:
and they are way cheaper than any kind of tablet as well.


3dsXL costs 199, a nexus 7 costs 199.

http://www.gamestop.com/nintendo-3ds/consoles/nintendo-3ds-xl-blue/102941

http://www.google.com/nexus/7/
#41 Apr 10 2013 at 1:00 PM Rating: Good
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I got my XL after christmas for 150ish, and the regular sized one is around 160ish regular priced.
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lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.

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#42 Apr 10 2013 at 1:03 PM Rating: Good
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Elinda wrote:
Spoonless wrote:
Family-friendly, party-type games that don't focus on being on the bleeding edge of graphics are the kind of game probably best suited for tablets. As we get into the point in time when everyone in the family has a tablet or smartphone, a centralized console to game together becomes less important.
Along this line, have board games been making a comeback? Not the pictionary party type games but the more involved Catan like games.

My kids and their friends are into all kinds of them recently.


I think so. I do a lot of board game nights with my friends. Catan, Ticket to Ride, Small World, Stone Age, and whatever new ones somebody's picked up.
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#43 Apr 10 2013 at 1:05 PM Rating: Good
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Olorinus the Ludicrous wrote:
I got my XL after christmas for 150ish, and the regular sized one is around 160ish regular priced.


Regular one was 250 at launch though.
#44 Apr 10 2013 at 2:57 PM Rating: Good
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I also had no idea tablets were getting that cheap. But is it any good?
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lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.

clicky
#45 Apr 10 2013 at 3:09 PM Rating: Good
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its very good. :P
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