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#1 Mar 06 2013 at 11:05 AM Rating: Excellent
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The new Sim City has issues. I'm not calling them problems because to some people they are not problems at all. To some they are.

I have not purchased the game, nor have I played it in beta. I've read a good deal about it. I don't like the fact that I will not be able to save my game, or that I will have to be connected to EA's server to play.

I want to be able to play on a laptop when I don't have a connection, and I want to be able to save and then throw disaster after disaster at my city to see how it copes, and then have the option to return to my save. I also don't want to be limited by size or pop, but that can be an option for a challenge mode.

I came across this kickstarter city sim - Civitas. It looks promising, but so far it's nothing but talk. The devs are supposed to be putting up some videos of the features. Read the comments.

I gave them $10 and told them I would give them more if they show something concrete. I'd love a deep city sim that has the features they are talking about.

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#2 Mar 06 2013 at 11:33 AM Rating: Excellent
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Supposedly bigger maps, the addition of subways, and some other missing features may come through DLC later on.

I love their score on Metacritic

Maybe someone who owns the game can say more about it, but from reading the reviews, it only sounds like they only focus on how great the SimCity franchise is and not how SimCity 2013 has improved over previous versions. A few did mention curvy roads and the ability to see each named sim... but I really don't care what Jane does and with a very limited city size, curvy roads just seem inefficient, but I'm sure these factors appeal to someone.


I also saw Civitas, but came to the same conclusion- it's just talk and far too early to give too much support.
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#3 Mar 06 2013 at 11:36 AM Rating: Excellent
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Wait. It's actually missing features you'd expect in a SimCity game, completely limits your fun by basically removing the Save feature (or, as most would consider it the "Undo" button), can't play it on the go and it got near perfect scores? I will never touch this game. Smiley: laugh
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#4 Mar 06 2013 at 11:41 AM Rating: Good
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It's sitting in its delivery box on my coffee table right now (I bought the physical copy). I'll let y'all know what I think once I can get some time with it.
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#5 Mar 06 2013 at 12:07 PM Rating: Good
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All this game has done is make me run around the house looking for my copy of Sim City 4.

never found it though, only my rush hour disc :_(

Edited, Mar 6th 2013 10:07am by KTurner
#6 Mar 06 2013 at 12:58 PM Rating: Excellent
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TL;DR - It is a really good sim city game with some major glaring flaws. Nothing like getting Diablo's "Error 34" for a game that has even less of a reason to require an online connection. As much as I would love to play this game (it does look polished) I despise DRM like this, especially after Diablo. Should be interesting on how EA handles the fallout on this one.
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#7 Mar 06 2013 at 1:27 PM Rating: Excellent
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SimCity 2013 is currently plauged mostly by the cheapskate effect. That is to say, EA grossly underestimated the server power necessary to handle the launch traffic generated, and almost certainly wont' be able to cope for a week or two during peak times.

As far as actual game play goes, it's more polished than I thought it would be. Haven't had any major lag or graphics glitches, which is typically the first defect I notice in a game. The requirement to login to a server is annoying, especially so when you realize that the sole purpose of doing so is EA's own brand of DRM, and not really any other lie they throw at the media to try to explain it away.

Having said that, you don't have to play with others. You can create a new region, label it private, and then nobody can build in your region. By doing so, you negate the possbility of anyone else impacting your cities negatively or otherwise. The map sizes are limited, and there is zero customizability (client server games necessitate the absence of user mods), but the game play itself is very much worthwhile. Some die hard fans of the older games loved the requirement to lay individual power lines and water pipes in SC4, but I very much prefer the 2013 game play, where in these utility connections are integrated with roads, as are the density constraints (build near a dirt road, you get single family homes, build near a 6 lane avenue, you get sky scrapers).

I've played the game for about 6 hours now, not counting the futile 3 hours spent last night trying to get logged in to a city, and I'm satisifed with it, knowing that there will be many adjustments and fixes to come in the next few months.

One thing I won't do, however, is partake in EA's time honored tradition of enhancing the game via purchasable DLC. If they refuse to fix the games shortcomings via patches and updates, and instead force the consumer to buy what amounts to bug fixes, I can safely say it's not that thrilling of a game, and I'll simply bow out and find another game to occupy my time.
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#8 Mar 06 2013 at 9:41 PM Rating: Good
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Anno 2070
Tropico 4
Cities XL

Are any of these alternatives worth picking up? I heard Cities XL is only mediocre, but the other two are quite enjoyable.
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#9 Mar 06 2013 at 9:43 PM Rating: Good
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I'll say that the game looks pretty, but it isn't enough to make me want to shell out $60 for it. Maybe in a month when they drop the price to $5.
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#10 Mar 06 2013 at 11:31 PM Rating: Excellent
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Anno 2070 - City constructor + economic simulators with a side of combat. Pretty solid game.
Tropico 4 - A slightly shinier Tropico 3. AI is a bit annoying. Still a good city builder if you can get over that annoyance.
Cities XL - Rather mediocre city builder with a bad habit of getting sluggish once your city starts to get large.

Honestly as long as you avoid Cities XL you should be solid. That said, it seems as though Anno would be your best bet for an overall better sim game.
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#11 Mar 07 2013 at 2:47 AM Rating: Good
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I haven't really gotten into a Sim City game since SimCity 2000. I really enjoyed that game though. Since then I feel like they have went down hill.
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#12 Mar 07 2013 at 4:50 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
the density constraints (build near a dirt road, you get single family homes, build near a 6 lane avenue, you get sky scrapers)..


Ugh, always hated how simcity never seemed to gove meaningful transp options besides hurrr durrr build moar roads since even with transit built up people wouldn't move into hoods not covered in roads... But this is just so unrealistic.... Maybe I am just coming from a weird place but round these parts a single detached home is much more likely to be built near a major highway than a skyscraper... Most big residential buildings are in downtown cores around here, with, at best/worst 2 lanes in either direction.

As for the game I was interested then i hear about always on multiplayer... Meh no thanks

Edited, Mar 7th 2013 2:51am by Olorinus
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#13 Mar 07 2013 at 7:01 AM Rating: Good
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Well, servers were still down for me last night.
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#14 Mar 07 2013 at 9:04 AM Rating: Good
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I think I'm finally standing my ground on the DRM crap. I want to play the game, but refuse to accept the always on ********* Of the few times I wanted to give D3 another go, almost every one of them was when I was traveling and using hotel Wi-Fi. Not being able to play a game I've rightfully paid for because of a publisher's blatant ignorance to the problem is not something I'm willing to put up with anymore.
#15 Mar 07 2013 at 9:30 AM Rating: Good
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Iron Chef Olorinus wrote:
Quote:
the density constraints (build near a dirt road, you get single family homes, build near a 6 lane avenue, you get sky scrapers)..
Ugh, always hated how simcity never seemed to gove meaningful transp options besides hurrr durrr build moar roads since even with transit built up people wouldn't move into hoods not covered in roads...
...and instead of roads, you expected people to jetpack to and from their houses? Previously, SimCity offered lots of choices from roads, highway, rail, subway, bus stops, and probably more.

Those density constraints are new to SimCity 2013, I believe.


Raolan wrote:
I think I'm finally standing my ground on the DRM crap. I want to play the game, but refuse to accept the always on bullsh*t. Of the few times I wanted to give D3 another go, almost every one of them was when I was traveling and using hotel Wi-Fi. Not being able to play a game I've rightfully paid for because of a publisher's blatant ignorance to the problem is not something I'm willing to put up with anymore.
Even though Diablo 3 had problems at first, given the auction houses, the always-on DRM was almost needed. Blizzard probably could have created an offline game mode that denied a character access to the auction house, but then you have other issues such as separating the shared storage from online characters.

I do agree that always-on DRM is a bad thing and is one of the reasons I'll never touch SimCity 2013, but you also need to think about why it is in place. Requiring a connection for D3 made some sense in order to limit cheating. It doesn't make sense in the cases of SimCity 2013 or the supposed xbox rumors.

Just as publishers need to decide if always-on DRM is necessary or not, the players need to decide if it is something that will affect them. In the case of Diablo 3, requiring a connection wasn't exactly hidden, so you should have made the judgement call that if you're traveling a lot and want to be able to play on the road, an always-on game might not be the best option.

Edited, Mar 7th 2013 9:47am by xypin
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#16 Mar 07 2013 at 9:39 AM Rating: Good
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xypin wrote:
Anno 2070
Tropico 4
Cities XL

Are any of these alternatives worth picking up? I heard Cities XL is only mediocre, but the other two are quite enjoyable.


http://www.amazon.com/Tropico-3-Pc/dp/B002MCG8MI try that.

I thought Tropico was a good game and a funny game.

Edited, Mar 7th 2013 7:40am by KTurner
#17 Mar 07 2013 at 10:31 AM Rating: Excellent
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For those that are interested Electronic Arts CFO Blake Jorgensen stated last week that they wanted to put microtransactions into all their games. This, of course, was done at a shareholder meeting so when gamers found out about it the obvious happened.

Quote:
The next and much bigger piece is microtransactions within games. We're building into all of our games the ability to pay for things along the way, either to get to a higher level, to buy a new character, to buy a truck, a gun, whatever it might be, and consumers are enjoying and embracing that way of the business.


He has recently come out and stated that we misinterpreted what he said.

Quote:
I made a statement in the conference along the lines of 'We'll have micro-transactions in our games' and the community read that to mean all our games, and that's really not true.


Smiley: laugh Oh EA, you so silly!
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#18 Mar 07 2013 at 11:41 AM Rating: Good
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xypin wrote:


xypin wrote:
Iron Chef Olorinus wrote:
[quote]the density constraints (build near a dirt road, you get single family homes, build near a 6 lane avenue, you get sky scrapers)..
Ugh, always hated how simcity never seemed to gove meaningful transp options besides hurrr durrr build moar roads since even with transit built up people wouldn't move into hoods not covered in roads...
...and instead of roads, you expected people to jetpack to and from their houses? Previously, SimCity offered lots of choices from roads, highway, rail, subway, bus stops, and probably more.

Those density constraints are new to SimCity 2013, I believe.


I would put in tons of railways etc but no one would move in and people would complain that there was no transportation even though there was a railway station at like every block.

anyway I loved sim city as a kid but now I want something that more closely mimics real world mechanics. I don't really care that much about graphics, I'd rather have an engine that was more of a city simulator rather than pretty graphics with stuff dumbed down and not offering meaningful choices about the kind of city you can build.

like... where is my ability to put in a park and ride? Or bike lanes?

Edited, Mar 7th 2013 9:45am by Olorinus
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#19 Mar 07 2013 at 1:49 PM Rating: Excellent
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I got it last night. If I had known it was having so many issues, I would have waited. But I love Sim City and I did the short beta test for this one and really liked it, so here I am. I wasn't able to get on at all last night though. And today I did the tutorial before the servers went back down. Going to try it again here in a second and if it's still down, I'll go play Rift or something, hehe. But I really think that if I can ever get on for more than 30 minutes, I'll really like it.
#20 Mar 07 2013 at 2:29 PM Rating: Decent
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xypin wrote:

Raolan wrote:
I think I'm finally standing my ground on the DRM crap. I want to play the game, but refuse to accept the always on bullsh*t. Of the few times I wanted to give D3 another go, almost every one of them was when I was traveling and using hotel Wi-Fi. Not being able to play a game I've rightfully paid for because of a publisher's blatant ignorance to the problem is not something I'm willing to put up with anymore.
Even though Diablo 3 had problems at first, given the auction houses, the always-on DRM was almost needed. Blizzard probably could have created an offline game mode that denied a character access to the auction house, but then you have other issues such as separating the shared storage from online characters.

I do agree that always-on DRM is a bad thing and is one of the reasons I'll never touch SimCity 2013, but you also need to think about why it is in place. Requiring a connection for D3 made some sense in order to limit cheating. It doesn't make sense in the cases of SimCity 2013 or the supposed xbox rumors.

Just as publishers need to decide if always-on DRM is necessary or not, the players need to decide if it is something that will affect them. In the case of Diablo 3, requiring a connection wasn't exactly hidden, so you should have made the judgement call that if you're traveling a lot and want to be able to play on the road, an always-on game might not be the best option.

Edited, Mar 7th 2013 9:47am by xypin


The always on DRM wasn't necessary for D3 as there's no reason they couldn't separate the single player and multi-player. The RMAH was a cash grab that really shouldn't have existed in the first place, so that excuse was garbage. And preventing cheating is as easy is implementing a client validation check prior to letting an existing character into multi-player. If a player wants to cheat in the single player game, there's no reason they shouldn't be allowed to do so, just prevent that character from competing online.

I was aware of the DRM implementations going in, but that doesn't change the fact that requiring a maintained connection for the single player portion of the game is ridiculous.
#21 Mar 07 2013 at 2:42 PM Rating: Excellent
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Nadenu wrote:
I got it last night. If I had known it was having so many issues, I would have waited. But I love Sim City and I did the short beta test for this one and really liked it, so here I am. I wasn't able to get on at all last night though. And today I did the tutorial before the servers went back down. Going to try it again here in a second and if it's still down, I'll go play Rift or something, hehe. But I really think that if I can ever get on for more than 30 minutes, I'll really like it.


The way that they're talking about it, I'd be surprised if the servers are up for any significant time before Sunday/Monday. They really screwed the pooch on this launch.
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#22 Mar 07 2013 at 2:44 PM Rating: Excellent
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Yeah, it was 100% a money-grubbing scenario for Blizzard. There's no reason they couldn't have separated offline and online characters, like they did in the first two games. Their incentive not to do so was twofold. For one, there was the RMT Auction House, which gave them potential profit through microtransactions. The other was DRM, which is so @#$%ing stupid to begin with, because always-on DRM does literally nothing but **** off the people who purchased your game. You can absolutely pirate D3 right now, just like you could mere weeks after launch.

What it DOES do, however, is ***** anyone with a vested interest in not having to rely on an internet connection to play a ******* single player game. My internet has been absolute crap since Sandy--it'll just go out for short periods, speeds will drop for periods, etc. It makes playing MMOs in groups ridiculously annoying during any period of time where the system will be stressed, and there aren't really other internet options available in the area.

I also primarily play games on a laptop, which often gets taken places where I don't have internet access. For my new job I'll be traveling a fair amount, and hotels won't always have internet service (at least not good service), and I'll have free time to kill.

Always-On DRM games absolutely suck for me. I can tolerate these issues for a multiplayer game, because that's part of the package. I've decided to play with other people and need to accept the limits of technology.

But for a single player game? Oh @#$% no. I refuse to buy any game with it.

If connectivity is central to the games fundamental design, then fine. Even if its a single player game, the always-on feature actually is important, because the game doesn't exist without it. But the only single player game I can even justify this idea for is Journey, and online was optional there. The next thing that even comes close (and it's a very, very loose definition of "close") is Demons/Dark Souls--playing without the messages players can leave is definitely a more empty experience. But even then, it's not fundamental.

If your game supports quality solo game play that doesn't rely on being connected to be valuable, you better not require a constant connection.
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#23 Mar 07 2013 at 2:58 PM Rating: Good
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God yes, exactly what idiggory said. I personally just don't want to give companies who do this sort of thing money anymore.
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#24 Mar 07 2013 at 4:16 PM Rating: Good
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I recently had a twitter go around with TotalBiscuit about D3 and always on DRM. While I don't agree with it. Its not there for my sake or yours, its there for those people still playing Diablo 2 10 years later. Its in there for the RMAH and to stop hackers from just making a program to drop the rarest items in the game then selling them for money via duping etc.

Yes they could have made a singleplayer only mode but honestly I HATED that in Diablo 2 when I played. What do you mean the character I worked so hard to finish the game with cant be used online and I have to start at 1. ***** this. I played D2 online 1 time and that was it, only because I didnt want to start a new character all the time. (Times have changed with me but this was back then).

Quite Honestly I know Bliz could care less if some people won't buy it because of DRM issues, I mean why else would they give out tons of copies for "free", they will get some people at 60 dollars brand new, but they are banking on the long game, 5-6 years from now when only the Hardcore of the Hardcore play and still use the RMAH for those super rare drops, guess what Blizz is still making money off it.

I mean in todays Gaming lifecycle its hard to stick with a game for more then 40ish hours, theres tons of Free or sub MMOs, FPS, Closed Betas. I mean thanks to WoW alone I have a HUGE backlog of PC and PS3 games, If no new games came out for the next 2 years I would have plenty to play, and I'm not the only one.

As for my view, Yes I dislike Always online DRM, in D3 I will excuse it not because of Blizzard love, but because I can see the application of it. I can see the thought process of how it came to be in the game.

Here is a question: If you were developing D3 you want to look back at D2 and fix some of the problems. In D2 your players are; casual people reinstalling every once in a while but usually for a week or so before uninstalling then you have your always online constantly farming Hardcore types. The Hardcore being the most played and most vocal. There biggest complaints being shady "item" auction sites, duping glitches, etc.

Who do you cater to? The casual pay for it once play for a short time and maybe come back randomly or the play all the time people? Then how do you fix it, or give it a level of security to your long term players?

Always online DRM is a very easy solution to this problem. Yeah the casuals will complain, but your not worried about them you got everything they are willing to give to you and besides they will move on soon enough to another game.


As for Simcity and the discussion at hand, I bought it for my wife because she loves all things Sim and regretted it because shes had nothing but issues with server etc. She works in a VERY High stress job and it just added to her stress, so I called Amazon and they refunded me no problem, the rep said I wasnt the first to call, and they have been giving out a lot of these today. Shes had Ques, Been kicked off the servers, rollbacks and overall a pain just trying to play.

I honestly think if anyone finally had a chance to stand up and get backing to get something into congress to start taking a look of shady business practices of games, right now would be the time. You have a TON of non gamers being burned and gamers alike. I mean how many other mediums cannibalize themselves to ***** over the consumer, If you went to a movie and they had 2 different versions, One was 2 hours long everything intact, the other was 1:45 but had scenes deleted but the longer version costed 5 dollars more. Or would you buy a book with chapters cut out and sold at a premium?

I don't know these are the ramblings of a jaded person or actual concerns anymore.
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#25 Mar 07 2013 at 4:20 PM Rating: Excellent
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Not to mention with SimCity'13, she was complaining about how lacking it seemed, I mean Simcity 4 couple have a super metropolis, this game forces you into small cities that work together but can never expand, until the release a paid DLC to add more sections or teraforming into the game, which I can't wait to see that explosion.

I fully expect EA to win Worst Company of the year award again.
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#26 Mar 07 2013 at 4:54 PM Rating: Good
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Point 1: Putting in an always on DRM which turns off potential players, makes the game impossible for many to access, and difficult for many others, not to mention the fact that it renders the entire game unplayable when your servers are down, just to ensure that multiplayer remains hack free is actually the stupidest thing I've heard in a long time.

Because I have one response to Blizzard then: Go @#$% yourself. If you're implementing a ridiculously annoying security feature solely for the benefit of people who will be playing it in a decade, then I, as part of the masses you apparently don't give a crap about, don't think you deserve to be making games in the first place, and you DEFINITELY don't deserve the legacy you're building on, Activision Blizzard.

Yeah, I might just give you $60. I may never make a microtransaction. But I just gave you @#$%ing $60. For a single player game. One that, had you not made a ridiculously stupid move, would have required precisely $0 on your part to maintain.

Point 2: Your argument is that they couldn't implement single player because single player somehow introduces dupers and hackers? What? The whole point is for single player to be an entirely separate experience from multiplayer. Why would that be an issue? Most people didn't play D2 online. I am one of the people who did. That doesn't mean I think everyone who wants to go solo should get screwed.

Point 3: You could take your single player character into Open Realms. That was the POINT of open realms--they were uncontrolled. If you wanted a regulated experience, that's what the Closed Realms are for. You're angry that your single player character couldn't be brought onto the closed realms, when the entire point of why it couldn't is because your single player experience: A. was potentially easier, because enemies scale up in MP, B. was potentially easier, because you couldn't get murdered by players, C. was potentially easier, because you had access to cheats if you wanted them. D. was potentially easier, because you got all loot that dropped. ETC.

It doesn't make any sense. You don't get to complain about MP not being regulated AND complain that you can't take your solo character online. Because that was the whole point--you opt for a regulated experience, and play solo or in MP online, or you opt for an UNregulated experience and play solo on or offline, or in MP online.

Always online DRM did nothing but restrict access for players. Closed worlds were 100% possible to play solo in, if you created your own game. So your entire argument makes literally no sense.

All Blizzard did is remove options from the player. The player gets literally nothing in return.
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#27 Mar 07 2013 at 5:43 PM Rating: Good
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EA is now disabling "minor" features in SimCity 2013 in order to improve server performance.
Amazon has put selling the SimCity 2013 download on hold claiming connectivity problems within the game.

http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2013/03/ea-disables-non-critical-gameplay-features-to-relieve-simcity-servers/

Edited, Mar 7th 2013 5:44pm by xypin
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#28 Mar 07 2013 at 6:37 PM Rating: Good
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Dig, I respect your opinion but yours isnt the only one out there. I could go back and forth for many long *** posts. I'm not the company nor am I a programer or designer, I dont understand the ins and outs of what info is being sent or received from the server .

My opinion from an outside perspective the gains outweight the losses from the system (ONLY In D3). I bought a CE copy and I have 3-4 lvl 60 characters, never completed Inferno. I feel I got my moneys worth.

As for singleplayer and duping and hacking, IM GUESSING, but I know most hacks use ram sniffers to modify the information stored in ram to do what they want, if the system is in place to get the item ID from the server, this is a VERY effective way of stopping a dupe or a hack. Yes a hacker could modify the incoming packets but, while I dont know, I could see this being much harder, and even if they did there's probably a check on the character save to filter out items that seem sketchy or tampered with IDK. Even putting the info on the disk is asking for somene to reverse engineer it and modify it, while keeping it serverside keeps it much harder and rarer to access.

In closed systems all the info is done ON the PC, therefor a program can MODIFY it ON the PC, In a online system if done right, The client would get key info such as drop algorithms and Item IDs, that cant be tampered with and send that info to the client and then verified later to make sure nothing changed.

As for you paying X amount for the game therefore you deserve the same respect as a player that Spends 500 dollars over the course of years of play, while its democratic and justified in a sense doesnt work in so well in real life. My uncle used to have the saying "The golden rule: He who has the gold makes the rules" and its true in both a companies sense and in political sense.

Example:
If player A is willing to give you 60 dollars one time and Player B is willing to give you 600 dollars over the course of 5 years for the same game, you would be dumb to cater ONLY to player A, while ignoring Player Bs needs.

Also any game you think requires 0 dollars to maintain is nuts, MP, Even if you dont use it requires balancing, you need to add new stuff in sometimes to keep the hardcore players playing, provide updates for system stability etc. Time and work goes into patches, you need a form of income for that.

As for some people never buying the game due to bad internet, or distaste of DRM. Well player B microed enough to pay for 10 people not playing.

As for your restricted access, I played for a good 2-3 weeks everyday, never felt restricted cept first night from Error 37. I made a few dollars on the RMAH, so I benefited from that security of POS wise (Not being charged back for supposed failed to deliver good which is so rampant on any kind of digital good on ebay)

As for the stuff about D2, well I havent played since Lords of Shadows, and I could be wrong about the online. I was under the impression when I created a character It didnt import Any of my singleplayer toons. /shrug

So lets break it down:
-Pros
Safer Online player2 player transactions (If they choose)
Hack resistant design (maybe)
Income from the game years after launch

Cons:
Online DRM, affects a small portion of players, and bothers certain players. But the vast majority has no issues with it.
Its unplayable with bad connections, again small portions of players.
has downtime from servers: Again only affects a small percentage ( How many ppl ***** about WoW downtime and get told to STFU)

I mean I understand the concerns Digg, I do, but 90% of players had NO issues with online DRM, **** it says on the box, "Requires internet connection to play"

Simcity is a different beast from D3, Simcity offers nothing to me as a consumer except hoops. I mean D3 at least has justified MP, Simcity has NEVER had emphasis multiplayer. I mean in SC4 i never saw sights trading simoleons or specialty buildings.

Simcity were one of those games that people just booted up when they were bored like Solitaire.

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#29 Mar 07 2013 at 6:42 PM Rating: Excellent
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I played the **** out of SimCity on the SNES when I was a kid. My great victory was untangling the streets of Berlin. My great tragedy was when the City of Catherine burned to the ground while I was outside mowing the lawn, and I had forgotten to save since the day before. Smiley: lol
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#30 Mar 07 2013 at 8:49 PM Rating: Excellent
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Yes, if information is being hosted on the PC, it can certainly be modified.

The point is that D2 offered both systems. You could elect for single player + open realm mutliplayer, which presented ample opportunity for people to cheat.

Or you could elect for the closed realm system, in which all information was stored on battle.net, not the PC, and was far more resilient to cheating. Not impenetrable--even MMOs see their fair share of hacking--but leagues beyond what protection is available on the open system.

And that's the point. ALL the D3 system does is remove one massive option from the player. It doesn't give anything, because all it has done is force people to take one path instead of providing them with multiples. And the reality is that no competitive player ever used the open realms unless they were perfectly fine with cheating. You'd be a fool to.

To put it in terms of your pros and cons:
Quote:
-Pros
Safer Online player2 player transactions (If they choose)
Hack resistant design (maybe)
Income from the game years after launch

Cons:
Online DRM, affects a small portion of players, and bothers certain players. But the vast majority has no issues with it.
Its unplayable with bad connections, again small portions of players.
has downtime from servers: Again only affects a small percentage ( How many ppl ***** about WoW downtime and get told to STFU)


Pros:
Safer Online play for all players, versus safer online play only for players who choose safer online play.
Hack resistant design, versus hack resistant design for players who desire hack resistant design.
*Income from the game years after launch vs. income for the game years after launch.

*If you are going to argue that D3 players desire a safer gaming experience, than you have to grant that, when given the option, D3 players will choose the safer gaming experience. Therefore, the RMT auction house would have been nearly as profitable regardless, as any player seeking protected play would choose a closed realm, and no player seeking an open system is going to stay with Diablo in its new incarnation anyway.

Cons:
-Always ON DRM ****** off a significant population of players, some of which get over it and manage to continue to enjoy the game anyway. It completely alienates any player without reliable internet access, and plenty of players who do have it. It completely alienates the group of players who would have restricted their use to an Open Realm, which was still potential money on Blizz's side. It doesn't increase security at all, because the closed realm system always existed in addition to the Open Realm system for anyone who wanted an experience without dupers.
-The population of people with unreliable internet connections is far higher than you imagine, particularly because really solid connections (particularly if we're going to talk about something like fiber optics) are only available in urban areas. Granted, this was 2 years ago, but 10% of the US' population couldn't gain access to internet fast enough to view photos. To be fair, I think this is down to 7% or something. That's still a LOT of people. And consider that single player games only become MORE important for any gamers in those areas. And remember that a internet connection sufficient to view photos is far lower than what would be considered playable for D3. My connection is fast enough for streaming. But it isn't reliable. So the reality is that Always On DRM is a potential serious issue for a FAR larger percentage of the population than you are pretending. The reality is that you aren't engaging with those people because they can't play the game.

I mean, you DO understand how fundamentally absurd it is to argue that 90% of players have no problems with Always On DRM, right? That's like me saying that 90% of posters on the TOR forums have no problem with the Free to Play restrictions for the game. That's probably true.

It's also true that Free to Play accounts can't post on the forums.
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#31 Mar 07 2013 at 9:36 PM Rating: Good
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Digg your forgetting, Bliz knew about the PS3/4 versions of the game, These werent an afterthought, you could see the workings in Beta builds. So for those that want to play the game but dont want always online (Possibly No RMAH). They still have an option to play.

Don't have a stable connection, get the console version. More then likely it will have M/K support, like Dust 514 does.

Yes I understand then its alienating the users who don't own a PS3/4 or a Computer with a stable connection.

In the end it was their decision for right or wrong to do Always online DRM, they are offering those without a stable connection another path if they choose (console). If neither path works for you then just move on, you can't please everyone.

Edited, Mar 7th 2013 9:37pm by BeanX
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#32 Mar 07 2013 at 9:56 PM Rating: Excellent
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I got in for a little while tonight and built a halfway decent city. It really is a lot of fun. I think I managed to stay online for about 2 hours. But I've not been able to get back on since. Hopefully they'll come through with some kind of fix soon. I'm keeping my fingers crossed because it really is a fun game and looks great.
#33 Mar 07 2013 at 10:52 PM Rating: Good
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Nadenu wrote:
I got in for a little while tonight and built a halfway decent city. It really is a lot of fun. I think I managed to stay online for about 2 hours. But I've not been able to get back on since. Hopefully they'll come through with some kind of fix soon. I'm keeping my fingers crossed because it really is a fun game and looks great.


Yeah, after some finagling, I was able to play just fine. Just logged off a second ago. Built one disaster of a city, then one that's a bit better off.

I haven't put enough time in to fully gauge it, but I'm liking what I'm seeing thus far. Curved roads are surprisingly easy to set up, the zoning is nice and streamlined, and the infographics that pop up are helpful and totally unobtrusive. You don't even really need to bother with the tutorial - the game explains itself quite well when you just play naturally.

I really wish I could modify terrain, though.


Maybe we can set up a ZAM region?

Edited, Mar 7th 2013 11:52pm by Eske
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#34 Mar 08 2013 at 7:34 AM Rating: Excellent
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I used to love Sim City; I played the original once at a relative's house when I was pretty young (12, maybe?) and absolutely enjoyed it. Sim City 2000... I must have put hundreds of hours into that game. As a kid/teen I didn't really understand business concepts, taxes, zoning, etc; I'd turn off disasters, get a good enough city going that I could make a profit each year, and then turn the speed up to the max for about 2000 years. Come back after, have a ton of money, build whatever I wanted. As I got older (and more experienced with the game concepts) I started to see how well I could expand going month by month instead of watching years fly by. I credit Sim City 2000 as what stirred my interest in business, which I eventually went to University for. And to a lesser extent, RTS games (the progression was Sim City --> Civilization --> Age of Empires --> Star Craft).

Then I bought the Sims, played it for 15 minutes, swore it was the worst thing ever, and never bought another Sims game Smiley: lol Sounds like I'm not missing much with this newest one either.
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#35 Mar 08 2013 at 2:52 PM Rating: Excellent
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BeanX wrote:
I recently had a twitter go around with TotalBiscuit about D3 and always on DRM. While I don't agree with it. Its not there for my sake or yours, its there for those people still playing Diablo 2 10 years later.

No. DRM and required online connectivity aren't benefiting anyone outside the company. It's specifically at the expense of the players. Some might consider it a trivial cost, but it's never there to benefit anyone playing the game. It doesn't protect the long time fans playing the game years later.
#36 Mar 08 2013 at 3:54 PM Rating: Good
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BeanX wrote:
Digg your forgetting, Bliz knew about the PS3/4 versions of the game, These werent an afterthought, you could see the workings in Beta builds. So for those that want to play the game but dont want always online (Possibly No RMAH). They still have an option to play.

Don't have a stable connection, get the console version. More then likely it will have M/K support, like Dust 514 does.

Yes I understand then its alienating the users who don't own a PS3/4 or a Computer with a stable connection.

In the end it was their decision for right or wrong to do Always online DRM, they are offering those without a stable connection another path if they choose (console). If neither path works for you then just move on, you can't please everyone.

Edited, Mar 7th 2013 9:37pm by BeanX


The fact that the PS version doesn't have to always be online is proof that always online isn't central to the design of the game or its philosophy.

Which seems to have been your entire argument.
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#37 Mar 08 2013 at 4:01 PM Rating: Excellent
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Here are the highestFundamentally, SimCity has always been a 'software toy'. That means that there's no real end state, no way to win. It's just a thing that you play and experiment with. You build, and tinker, and mess around. It's a toy, not a game; it's a sandbox, not baseball.

So, in this iteration of the game, you don't even get to buy your toy. Rather, you rent a toy from EA, who lets you play with it only in very limited, circumscribed ways, only on their servers. So you have to have a live Internet connection at all times, and their servers have to be up, and have to have space for you. And the rules for play are draconian. If you want to, say, build a city, save it, blow it up with something terrible, and then restore from save, you can't do that anymore. That's an unauthorized usage of their toy. And if you figure out ways of using their toy that they don't like, they'll ban you forever.

All third-party modding is shut out. One of the best parts of SimCity 4 and The Sims is that users can create and share content among themselves for free. You will no longer be able to do this. You will be required to run only Official Authorized Content.

Further, you're not getting the whole game for your $60 or $80, depending on what version you're buying. EA's plan is to sell you Simcity 5 over and over and over. They've directly admitted that they already have it running with larger cities, but they're not releasing that now. They claim it's because it "won't run on Dad's PC", but the real reason is so they can sell it to you again later. Want subways? That's gonna be $20. Want railroads? Another $20. Bigger cities? Oh, that's in the $30 expansion.

Right now, if you look at The Sims 3, the game costs $30. But if also you buy all the DLC for it, it's *four hundred and seventy dollars*. This is what they are doing with SimCity 5; locking you into their server infrastructure, and then exploiting the heck out of your wallet.

This is a lousy deal, and you would be stupid to take it. Always-on DRM, and a deliberately crippled game, so that they can slowly uncripple it, charging you for every restored feature from prior versions.

Simcity 4 still works pretty well. It's not quite as nice as most current games, and can require you to 'pin' the process to just one processor on a multi-core system (ie, most current machines), but if you want a city builder where you won't have to pay extra to breathe both in AND out, that would be a better option.

But buying this game? In my opinion, you would be wiser to take three twenties out of your wallet, and light them on fire.
and lowestI was looking for something new for my computer, when I stumbled upon this game on Amazon and decided, what the heck, lets give it a shot!

I have to say it far exceeds my expectations.

Thankfully, the game never actually loads. I was looking for a program where I could zone out, and stare at my computer screen in a meditative state for hours on end with no interuptions.

There's no actual gameplay, sound effects, or graphics to distract you from your meditation.

You may be forced to run the same "Tutorial" over and over again, but don't worry about that minor problem, because as soon as you exit the tutorial you'll be returned to a program that blissfully crashes or just, never logs onto any server succesfully, once again giving you peace and quiet.

Incredible job EA, will there be a sequel?
rated reviews on Amazon for Sim City. I find both to be funny.
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#38 Mar 08 2013 at 4:02 PM Rating: Good
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.... The Online DRM is to Support the RMAH..... The PS3/4 will not run unsigned code, therefor a closed system compared to PC. The Entire Online DRM for PC D3, IMHO, was to support the RMAH, which is a feature the Hardcore D2 players wanted instead of shady auction sites. And the RMAH wont be part of Console release more then likely.

Edited, Mar 8th 2013 4:04pm by BeanX
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#39 Mar 08 2013 at 7:21 PM Rating: Good
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And yet you have continually failed to explain, at all, why removing the option of playing on an open realm from the PC version in any way affects their ability to provide a quality, controlled closed realm experience.

Which is the entire point.

No one is arguing that there aren't pros associated with a controlled system. What we're saying is that removing the choice from the player to play on the closed realm or the open realm, according to their own needs and desires, fundamentally reduces the quality of the game and limits the scope of players it can reach.

There's NOTHING about having an open realm that damages the quality of the closed realm. That's the point, they're separate.

You can continue to willfully ignore the point, or you can continue to try and sing the merits of closed realm systems. At the end of the day, no one cares. Because we agree with you--the closed realm system DO provide a more structured, controlled environment, and there is definitely a place for that.

What you are failing to address is why removing the ability of a player to choose to access the open realm system instead is apparently a good thing overall.
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#40 Mar 08 2013 at 7:52 PM Rating: Excellent
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#41 Mar 08 2013 at 8:22 PM Rating: Good
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**** always on DRM!

I wonder if there's a sale on steam.
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#42 Mar 08 2013 at 8:30 PM Rating: Good
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Tropico 4 Collector's Edition, $10 for $80 of DLC....
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#43 Mar 08 2013 at 9:40 PM Rating: Good
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
And yet you have continually failed to explain, at all, why removing the option of playing on an open realm from the PC version in any way affects their ability to provide a quality, controlled closed realm experience.

Which is the entire point.

No one is arguing that there aren't pros associated with a controlled system. What we're saying is that removing the choice from the player to play on the closed realm or the open realm, according to their own needs and desires, fundamentally reduces the quality of the game and limits the scope of players it can reach.

There's NOTHING about having an open realm that damages the quality of the closed realm. That's the point, they're separate.

You can continue to willfully ignore the point, or you can continue to try and sing the merits of closed realm systems. At the end of the day, no one cares. Because we agree with you--the closed realm system DO provide a more structured, controlled environment, and there is definitely a place for that.

What you are failing to address is why removing the ability of a player to choose to access the open realm system instead is apparently a good thing overall.


If you place drop algorithms on clients side they can be easily manipulated, if you have the said information for clientside to ensure both Multiplayer and Singleplayer you would be using the SAME SYSTEM. By removing the information from the clientside you keep the Online side safer because they no longer have access to it to mess around.

By putting all the info on the CLIENTSIDE in an OPEN SYSTEM gives them all the information they need to hack the CLOSED system. If you put all the information on the PC, Hackers can break down the code, know when and where ELITES will spawn, how often loot drops what determines what loot drops and what to modify to benefit them. You keep saying well "Make and open and closed" So what they have to make 2 different versions of the game, with 2 completely separate drop rates and spawn patterns, otherwise the hackers on the OPEN system could easily MAKE a program knowing where and when something is going to spawn with very good accuracy.

As it sits ATM You install all the art basic systems and the program to interpret the information sent from the system, essentially half the who program, The Online part sends the system what loots drops, what to spawn, where to spawn it, and then verifies afterwards everything that the data it sent hasnt been manipulated clientside via a hack.

You keep saying well Let me have an open system, to have an open system Both sides of the program The GUI clientside and the Loot algorithms MUST BE on the clientside, therefore open to be messed with and unless you have completely change the way MP works. I remember back when D3 came out someone was hacking the game, the most they could do at the time was spawn the NPCs in town, they were having issues spawning any sort of mob, having anything drop, and that was by making a fake server for the game to interact with.

Please tell me how you can have an Open system without installing the Server side on the PC it needs to run on, while keeping the Closed system completely safe. I mean the information your trying to keep safe in the closed system is essentially already installed on the pc if you allow a Open system.

Now this is all guessing , and I honestly dont care (I said that a few posts ago) I bought the game had almost no issues, I played it for a few weeks and now I probably wont play again for a long time if ever because newer and better stuff is out. Yes I agree with you that Having a Closed/Open system would have been better, but like I was posting here you then give hackers the exact information they want installed right to there system, or write 2 completely separate drop/spawn rates etc.





Edited, Mar 8th 2013 9:41pm by BeanX
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#44 Mar 08 2013 at 9:49 PM Rating: Good
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Think about this, Lets say D3 uses a algorithm to give every piece of armor in the game a special ID, it sends this information when something drops, you dont see the process behind it becuase you cant access the program on the server, the only thing your computer sees is the ID it got sent.

To have an open system, which allows you to play offline, that unique Id generation program must be installed on your PC. A hacker goes in and sees how that program works, using that information he uses a packet sniffer to find a pattern of the information Blizz servers are sending to the game, Suddenly he can Create fake IDs that the Online system sees as real.

Its Exactly the same process they used to hack the PS3, the moment hackers figured out how to sign programs to run on the PS3, Sony was done, because their system couldn't see the difference from the fake signed programs or the Real signed programs.

Edited, Mar 8th 2013 9:49pm by BeanX
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#45 Mar 08 2013 at 10:49 PM Rating: Good
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Do you actually not see how much your argument flies all over the place?

You criticize the idea that they'd need to create a second system for single player, yet that's what they would have done for the PS version in the first place. And you're arguing that they planned this from the start, so there's clearly no reason they couldn't share similar systems to minimize the work.

But maybe they're relying on the security of the PS3 to protect the data! Yeah, I seriously doubt that. Even if it wasn't easy enough to read the data on the BluRay, as you pointed out the PS3 has already been hacked. So one would imagine the multiplayer and single player campaigns for the PS3 are using different systems, if they are that concerned.

And let's go ahead and be blunt--single player doesn't require a complex system. Everything about MP changes with how many people are playing with you, and the same dungeons can be revisited just by entering a new game (assuming this has remained the same since D2). These are factors that complicate the systems.

But single player doesn't need anything remotely that complex. Blizz could have just created 10-20 distinct map/spawn/drop sets which could be loaded randomly for each act. That would have been fully sufficient for single player. It wouldn't work in multiplayer, because people end up replaying the same dungeons 50 times and the RMT AH requires far more randomness than that, but would have been completely fine in single player content. What is it, 5 acts? With just 5 map sets per act, that means thousands of unique combinations.

There's no reason they needed to transcribe the multiplayer systems into single player, because single player doesn't require any of the particular features of multiplayer. And with the majority of the game world no longer being randomly generated, there's no good reason for why a map set system wouldn't work. Maybe you have a certain number per act, or maybe each act draws 2 or 3 cards from sub groups of maps.

Either way, it's a system that would be relatively easy to implement and removes the need for the system to choose drops or anything as MP would.
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#46 Mar 08 2013 at 11:45 PM Rating: Good
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I don't know, I understand where your coming from, and I agree with you on most fronts, I dont like Always online DRM in games, but In D3 with the RMAH I can understand the thought it. I dont know if because Blizzard is cheap and didnt want to make 2 systems, or if its just like SimCitys system.

We could go around and around about how The new firmwares and hardware of the newer ps3s cant be hacked like the older first gen and even then they cant access PSNetwork. Or how a PS3 game would not be coded in x86 therefore a pain in the *** to to de-encode and match up to the PC version. But I dont know honestly how hard that is.

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#47 Mar 09 2013 at 12:05 AM Rating: Good
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Reports suggest the game has no reasonable AI.

Any one care to comment? or is this not a common experience?
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#48 Mar 09 2013 at 12:41 AM Rating: Good
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Anyway on the topic of SimCity
Quote:
Something Special for Your Trouble

The good news is that SimCity is a solid hit in all major markets. The consensus among critics and players is that this is fundamentally a great game. But this SimCity is made to be played online, and if you can’t get a stable connection, you’re NOT having a good experience. So we’re not going to rest until we’ve fixed the remaining server issues.

And to get us back in your good graces, we’re going to offer you a free PC download game from the EA portfolio. On March 18, SimCity players who have activated their game will receive an email telling them how to redeem their free game.

I know that’s a little contrived – kind of like buying a present for a friend after you did something crummy. But we feel bad about what happened. We’re hoping you won’t stay mad and that we’ll be friends again when SimCity is running at 100 percent.

SimCity is a GREAT game and the people who made it are incredibly proud. Hang in there – we’ll be providing more updates throughout the weekend.


Source


So you're getting a free game, heres hoping its not something terrible also.
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#49 Mar 09 2013 at 9:43 AM Rating: Good
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Reports suggest the game has no reasonable AI.

Any one care to comment? or is this not a common experience?


It certainly isn't the brightest. I suppose I'd have to set up a simpler experiment to see if they only take the shortest path. In my city they definitely trend towards the shortest distance, but it seems like some of them will pop over to alternate routes periodically. I will say that they don't seem to place proper importance on larger roads - in my one moderately successful city, they largely ignored a "highway" (that was slightly indirect but wide open), in favor of a straight-shooting smaller road that got fairly congested.

On one occasion I watched a responding duo of fire trucks drive back and forth on the same road multiple times, before finally "figuring out" how to make a turn to start heading towards a fire on the other side of town. So there's definitely some pathing issues.
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#50 Mar 09 2013 at 9:12 PM Rating: Excellent
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Alright you two, enough about the GD DRM.

They seem to have fixed the connectivity issue, at least for now. I was able to play for about 4 hours tonight. Built another city on a different server. Got it destroyed twice by Godzilla. Smiley: frown But overall I'm having a good time. I had a hard time turning it off. My silly husband wants to play. Smiley: bah

ETA: I'm up for a Zam region if you guys want to. And IF you guys can stop arguing. Smiley: motz

Edited, Mar 9th 2013 10:13pm by Nadenu
#51 Mar 09 2013 at 9:34 PM Rating: Good
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Nadenu wrote:
Built another city on a different server. Got it destroyed twice by Godzilla. Smiley: frown




It seems to be attracted to garbage, fast forward to 5:35.
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