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#227 Sep 08 2012 at 2:10 PM Rating: Good
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So the guilds got enough influence to build something. We can actually open the guild bank if we want, or do people want the banners first that give exp/rep buffs? Ignore this if someone else started something today, haven't been on yet and forgot to post this last night.
#228 Sep 10 2012 at 9:20 AM Rating: Good
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Last night I used the Mystic Forge. It was pretty much a bust. However, I did get a nice surprise from my unidentified dyes.

I had 22 unidentified dyes and figured I would ID them and combine them in the hopes of getting a Black Dye to sell. Well, my combines only got me worthless "rarer" dyes. But, one of the dyes I identified was a Midnight somethingorother, and I sold it for a little over 1.5g. Nice.

Meanwhile, I did three combines of green items and got three slightly higher level green items. So, the Mystic Forge helped me empty my bags, basically.

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Drulian, Pie Eating Champion wrote:
So the guilds got enough influence to build something. We can actually open the guild bank if we want, or do people want the banners first that give exp/rep buffs? Ignore this if someone else started something today, haven't been on yet and forgot to post this last night.
That reminds me, I bought the digital deluxe download and got some guild influence boost thingy (note: it is my understanding that "thingy" is a term of art in the engineering profession). I'll have to click it next time I'm on.

Are we at the point that we need a guild bank yet? What would we use it for, dumping crafting items? It seems early in the game for anyone to do that yet. By the way, I'm curious, who has the highest level character and what level is it?

I've been spending too much time on alts and am sitting on two @ 20ish and three at 10ish. Plus one 10ish that I deleted. I never learn - get one to cap for the help it can give to the others coming up.

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One last thing - the Training Manuals. Here's my understanding: you can use them to unlock traits and to re-trait (I haven't tried that yet). They do not disappear from inventory on use, and I've traded them between characters and used them. Also, I saw them on the Trading Post for a lot less than "retail." Am I missing anything?


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#229 Sep 10 2012 at 10:22 AM Rating: Good
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I dunno, only training manuals I've used have disappeared on use.

As for the guild bank, idk. I've actually never withdrew from a guild bank before. Always felt weird to me--I could never shake the feeling it would go to better use elsewhere. But I imagine we'd just use it for mats, cooking in particular being a nice one. Take the mats out, craft them to skill-up, put some finished food back in?

Anyone not on Crystal Desert also gets to choose their own upgrade, because influence pools are by world, not by guild.

For a guild like ours, Art of War upgrades don't make sense unless we are doing coordinated WvW events. +10% influence for 24 hours is only worthwhile if you would, as a guild, earn 1k or more influence in that period otherwise.

The economy and politics upgrades are primarily on-use items, if I understand them correctly. So really they should probably be left alone until we have a guild bank to store them, and they should be used when guildies are actually playing together.

So yeah, go for the guild bank first, then we can use influence to stock it with buff items. And we might as well get the Workshop upgrade first, so we can queue two upgrades at once.
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#230 Sep 10 2012 at 10:25 AM Rating: Good
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The wife and I actually transfered to Crystal Desert so we could help the guild more. As far as highest level, looks like my main at 50 is the highest atm, guess I play too much? LOL I'll look over the upgrade options again and make a decision, we're getting close enough to choose a 2nd one anyway.
#231 Sep 10 2012 at 1:36 PM Rating: Good
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Engineer has been pretty fun so far. I'm really liking an elixir and dual pistol build in WvW, but apparently there are issues with the way conditions are handled in general, so there's not much room in dungeon groups for more than one condition class. I don't really like using a rifle build, so I'll just try to get into a group whenever I can. I didn't run the first dungeon on my Guardian, but I'm going to try to get it done on Engineer.

I might end up transferring to Crystal Desert at some point, but I don't know.

Oh, and is there a way to take higher-resolution screenshots? That looks really crappy compared to how it looks in-game.
#232 Sep 10 2012 at 1:50 PM Rating: Good
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Mine were all taken at my monitor's resolution, so I have no clue. I'm only at 1366x768 though.

I really need to give engineer another chance. I never actually got to any of the juicy bits of the class when I tried it...
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#233 Sep 10 2012 at 1:59 PM Rating: Good
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It's a bit overwhelming at first because there are so many ways you can set it up, be it with kits, gadgets, turrets, or elixirs. I've seen a few people running around with the flamethrower kit going, which looks kind of fun. I might need to look into a split build for PvE. I use two elixirs for avoiding damage in PvP that I might not need in PvE.
#234 Sep 10 2012 at 2:08 PM Rating: Good
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That's the problem I'm having with my elementalist.

You get one weapon setup, but the four elements mean each option has 20 skills attached. But then you have to choose to focus on a max of two, or split your points among them (and the arcane tree which mostly handles the utility skills).

It's rough, because you are essentially only getting the trait bonus for half your points at a time, if you split it between two elements (you get the +power, etc, but almost all the traits depend on switching your element, being in one element, or using one element spell). It's making me think I should just go with one element, then Arcane, and use my last 10 points to add needed stats or for whatever secondary element I end up using (probably water for healing). And things change so much, like going with main-hand Dagger earth to be a tough close-range fighter (off-hand dagger adding strong self-centered AOE), or going with a Fire staff build for ranged area AoE, Fire Scepter/Dagger for group utility by self-comboing Area Mightx6 with strong ST (and immediate neighbor) damage, etc, etc, etc.

I'm NOT good with decisions, and this profession comes with too frickin' many. The Guardian has a fraction of them, AND weapon switching, and I still have trouble.
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#235 Sep 10 2012 at 10:39 PM Rating: Good
Yeah, that's the primary reason why I decided to switch my main to the Necromancer (at least for now). There's too many decisions to make with the Elementalist, and I don't feel like I know what I'm doing in the game yet, so I went with a more simple class for now.

Are you guys able to pick something to build? I honestly have no idea, as I haven't checked into it. I'll go log in before I go to bed for the night and check. If you can't, I'll get the guild bank selected. Sorry I've been gone for so long, went to go visit my boyfriend for the weekend and I just got back tonight.
#236 Sep 11 2012 at 5:47 AM Rating: Good
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Ya I queue'd up the guild bank for now.
#237 Sep 11 2012 at 6:10 AM Rating: Good
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PigtailsOfDoom wrote:
Yeah, that's the primary reason why I decided to switch my main to the Necromancer (at least for now). There's too many decisions to make with the Elementalist, and I don't feel like I know what I'm doing in the game yet, so I went with a more simple class for now.

Are you guys able to pick something to build? I honestly have no idea, as I haven't checked into it. I'll go log in before I go to bed for the night and check. If you can't, I'll get the guild bank selected. Sorry I've been gone for so long, went to go visit my boyfriend for the weekend and I just got back tonight.
If you haven't been yet, check out the Heart of Mists for structured PvP. It boosts your level to 80, like in WvW, but this time it gives you access to all the skills, and to the full amount of trait points associated with being 80. It really helped me get an idea of what I wanted to do with my Engineer. I know it's not the same as playing PvE content but if you're having a tough time or just want to see how something works without having to spend a bunch of skill points on things you might not end up wanting, it's pretty useful.
#238 Sep 11 2012 at 6:23 AM Rating: Good
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That's a great tip, I might need to check it out...
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#239 Sep 11 2012 at 6:32 AM Rating: Good
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Plus, the structured PvP is pretty fun, though it can get old with the same Arathi Basin "control the points" format again and again.
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#240 Sep 11 2012 at 6:35 AM Rating: Excellent
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With the elementalist, I'm choosing to think of it not as an overwhelming bunch of crap (which it is), but as versatility (which it is). Why settle on one playstyle when you can have so many? Smiley: grin Changing builds and weapons is easy enough to do. I'm just going to play a little of everything until I get max level and really need to make some decisions about gear. By then I imagine I'll have naturally settled into some favorites.

It's been my experience with every profession I've played around with that it works best if I let my weapon choice dictate my build, not the other way around. I like to decide what my favorite sets are and then design the build to match those.
#241 Sep 11 2012 at 6:48 AM Rating: Good
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teacake wrote:
With the elementalist, I'm choosing to think of it not as an overwhelming bunch of crap (which it is), but as versatility (which it is). Why settle on one playstyle when you can have so many? Smiley: grin Changing builds and weapons is easy enough to do. I'm just going to play a little of everything until I get max level and really need to make some decisions about gear. By then I imagine I'll have naturally settled into some favorites.

It's been my experience with every profession I've played around with that it works best if I let my weapon choice dictate my build, not the other way around. I like to decide what my favorite sets are and then design the build to match those.


I'm waiting to see just how viable a hybrid build is before I assume anything. I really don't like that I'll only benefit from 1/4 of my elemental traits at any one time with a hybrid build. I mean, going to the end in a tier for something like +30% fire damage is really hard to pass up. Not that I'm saying you can't use other spells even if you specialize, with rock armor and heals being notable (as well as defensive status skills).

And it's definitely true about weapon choice. Dagger Air spells don't suck, but right now scepter air is ridiculously underpowered. I just can't decide what weapons I want to use, and there being four elements to try with each combo, it takes time. Smiley: lol
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#242 Sep 11 2012 at 7:18 AM Rating: Good
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Since we have the Guild Workshop, we can queue two projects at once, and we have 500 influence. Anyone opposed to me queuing Research Economy Level 1 (Economy being mostly magic find and gathering bonuses) or Resarch Politics Level 1 (Politics being increased karma, guild emblems, etc.)?
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#243 Sep 11 2012 at 1:08 PM Rating: Good
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Economy gets my vote. Gathering and crafting completely owns me atm. Especially enjoying cooking now that I started that as well on my alt.
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#244 Sep 11 2012 at 1:27 PM Rating: Good
idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
teacake wrote:
With the elementalist, I'm choosing to think of it not as an overwhelming bunch of crap (which it is), but as versatility (which it is). Why settle on one playstyle when you can have so many? Smiley: grin Changing builds and weapons is easy enough to do. I'm just going to play a little of everything until I get max level and really need to make some decisions about gear. By then I imagine I'll have naturally settled into some favorites.

It's been my experience with every profession I've played around with that it works best if I let my weapon choice dictate my build, not the other way around. I like to decide what my favorite sets are and then design the build to match those.


I'm waiting to see just how viable a hybrid build is before I assume anything. I really don't like that I'll only benefit from 1/4 of my elemental traits at any one time with a hybrid build. I mean, going to the end in a tier for something like +30% fire damage is really hard to pass up. Not that I'm saying you can't use other spells even if you specialize, with rock armor and heals being notable (as well as defensive status skills).

And it's definitely true about weapon choice. Dagger Air spells don't suck, but right now scepter air is ridiculously underpowered. I just can't decide what weapons I want to use, and there being four elements to try with each combo, it takes time. Smiley: lol


For elementalist, if you're not switching you're not playing. I can blow through most normal guys with plain fire but switching lets me take on some big ones. I do scepter-dagger PvE, and at level 45 my rotation is:

Fire Stance -- Ring of Fire -- Dragon's Tooth (area might) -- Phoenix on me (area might) -->
Earth Stance -- Dagger4 (area might) and arcane blast (area might, useable without interrupting) -- blind with Scepter 3 and/or sandstorm -- Dagger5 (area might if the ring of fire's still up, which it can be if I'm really fast and skip the blinds)
Lightning Stance -- Hit Scepter2 and 3 while channelling the earth blast (they're useable without interrupting like arcane spells) -- Dagger 4&5 for some easy additional damage
Water Stance -- Dagger5 for a small heal and the regen from shifting into water
And repeat. This gives me and allies around me about 12 stacks of might, plus any from other players using their bursts in my ring of fire (engineer's landmine toolbelt is great for this since each mine counts as a burst). Sets them on fire for a long time, and earth's dagger 4/5 stack good AoE bleeds.

That's my uninterrupted rotation, of course. You need to be alert to what each element can do, and be ready to shift as necessary. With my weapons fire's burst damage and buffs, earth's blinds and large area damage, lightning's mobility with dagger 4/5 and another blind, and water's not too interesting but has a heal/cleanse. Dear lord remember where your cleanses are, they're important.

For talents I look at my playstyle. EVERYONE gets 10 points in Arcane for Elemental Attunement (area might/regen/swiftness/protection for 5 seconds when shifting to the appropriate element). After that I spend most of my time in fire so I go that way. Earth's my third because it gives more toughness when I'm channelling and vulnerable, both from the base "1 toughness per level in earth" and from the "gain toughness while channelling". I need to figure out if that's only for major channelling things or also during cast times of small spells like, oh, EVERYTHING. 5 points in water may be worth it for permanent regen in that stance, a way to handle "oh **** I'm low" moments a little.
#245 Sep 11 2012 at 4:03 PM Rating: Good
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Master Shojindo wrote:
Economy gets my vote. Gathering and crafting completely owns me atm. Especially enjoying cooking now that I started that as well on my alt.


This. I've been making a ton from gathering, since it seems demand is still far higher than supply on our server.
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#246 Sep 11 2012 at 4:35 PM Rating: Good
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I went ahead and queued Economy.

Also, Selebrin, that strikes me as doing a lot of extra work to come out behind. You spend a lot of time doing activities simply to churn out might stacks, without ever doing anything significant enough to make use of them. Also, pure Fire can keep up a consistent 6-12 stack of might (will deviate, but always be between those two numbers). Your strategy gets you a constant stack of 9, maybe 12. Unless you meant Arcane Wave (finisher: Burst) and not Arcane Blast (Finisher: Projectile), as the latter causes a combo of burning, not might. And even then, you won't get a constant stack of Might x12, because Wave's CD is >16 seconds.

Also, Dagger Air 5 doesn't cause any damage, it grants swiftness. 4 causes some low splash damage. Imo, there's no good reason to switch into Air, especially since the buff from the Arcane trait is only swiftness.

If I have to choose between a constant Might x6-9 with high damage skills, or a constant Might x9-12 with low damage skills, I know what I'm choosing. It would take a pretty large group to make up the damage difference, imo. At your level, each stack of might is 20 power. That's definitely great, yes, but you've sacrificed so much to get it. You are prioritizing attacks that cause conditions, while simultaneously focusing on keeping might up. And that doesn't make sense, because to the best of my knowledge might doesn't buff condition damage. I don't know that for sure, of course, but I'm assuming power and condition are separate stats for a reason.

For your build, a fully charged Churning Earth is your best damage. But that's because it causes hundreds (>1k) bleed damage, which might isn't buffing.

I'm convinced that your solo DpS is FAR lower with this rotation than if you just stayed in Fire. The only real question is how many extra players would need the additional 3-6 stacks of might for it to come out ahead, and I'm guessing it's a lot. Because you're losing a lot of damage here by forgoing fire grab and not using Dragon's Tooth on CD. You're essentially relying entirely on Churning Earth to close the gap. And why bother?

This build you've posted would be WAY better if you specced for Earth, not for Fire, in order to gain additional condition damage. Because you're essentially relying on burning and bleeding to do the majority of your dps.

So yeah, I still see absolutely no reason to switch elements in a PVE scenario, except if I can be sure that many people will make use of my Area Might. And even then, I'd rather just use Dragon's Tooth on OTHER area fields every 6 seconds for some buffs. If you're in a group setting, those are definitely going to be laid down. It's not like might is the end-all of boons. Area Chaos Armor, for instance, can be insanely good, because it hits both your enemies and your allies. Area Retaliation can be awesome.

So... yeah. I don't see how switching my attunement gains me anything noteworthy enough to actually warrant switching. You only get exceptions in group settings, where it can be advantageous to switch into water for Healing. MAYBE follow your rotation for higher might stacks. But, again, that's only going to matter in group content against enemies that will live a long time.
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#247 Sep 11 2012 at 5:35 PM Rating: Good
Might gives condition damage, FYI. Same amount as power.

The point of switching out of fire while abilities are on CD is because if an enemy isn't killed by the massive damage spike (most are, I only really rotate in dungeons, Champions, or groups who managed to be too spread out for my fire death blossom) they're going to be hitting me. Earth gives toughness, protection and blinds.

I switch into lightning while charging Churning Earth because Scepter 2 and 3, like Arcane Wave (yes I meant that not blast), can be fired without interrupting current actions, so I get a hit of damage and another blind on the enemy while I'm standing still. Lightning 4/5 for dagger are just "while I'm here" things, a bit more damage and a pushback-flip for more avoidance. A flip into water to trigger regen and cleanse any debuffs and fire has *just* become available to flip back into.

Changing elements is a 13-second CD if you have 10 points in arcane. Suppose we both blow Ring of Fire and Phoenix, drop a Tooth, and then I flip while you stay in fire. In those 13 seconds you get 2 Dragon's Tooth, about 10 autoattacks, and Ring of Fire back up a second sooner while I get the stuff I've already listed. I'm not counting Fire Grab because that's a long CD and I blow it when I return to Fire, which is an extended cycle since churning earth is a 30-second CD.

So really it's a standard fire cycle, except that every other Ring of Fire I flip through some elements rather than staying fire. I don't lose any stacks of might (since those depend on Ring of Fire and we're both setting the same blasts off in there) and I gain damage/protection/healing/swiftness. With the damage elementalists are capable of spitting out those latter ones come in handy because we WILL pull aggro.
#248 Sep 11 2012 at 6:45 PM Rating: Good
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selebrin wrote:
Might gives condition damage, FYI. Same amount as power.

The point of switching out of fire while abilities are on CD is because if an enemy isn't killed by the massive damage spike (most are, I only really rotate in dungeons, Champions, or groups who managed to be too spread out for my fire death blossom) they're going to be hitting me. Earth gives toughness, protection and blinds.

I switch into lightning while charging Churning Earth because Scepter 2 and 3, like Arcane Wave (yes I meant that not blast), can be fired without interrupting current actions, so I get a hit of damage and another blind on the enemy while I'm standing still. Lightning 4/5 for dagger are just "while I'm here" things, a bit more damage and a pushback-flip for more avoidance. A flip into water to trigger regen and cleanse any debuffs and fire has *just* become available to flip back into.

Changing elements is a 13-second CD if you have 10 points in arcane. Suppose we both blow Ring of Fire and Phoenix, drop a Tooth, and then I flip while you stay in fire. In those 13 seconds you get 2 Dragon's Tooth, about 10 autoattacks, and Ring of Fire back up a second sooner while I get the stuff I've already listed. I'm not counting Fire Grab because that's a long CD and I blow it when I return to Fire, which is an extended cycle since churning earth is a 30-second CD.

So really it's a standard fire cycle, except that every other Ring of Fire I flip through some elements rather than staying fire. I don't lose any stacks of might (since those depend on Ring of Fire and we're both setting the same blasts off in there) and I gain damage/protection/healing/swiftness. With the damage elementalists are capable of spitting out those latter ones come in handy because we WILL pull aggro.


You're right, it does give condition damage, just checked my stats in-game. Would have been nice if that was mentioned on the buff description.

I still end up with the same problem though. Why bother spending points in other elements if I'm only planning on being in something other than fire for seconds? Seems like a huge waste to me...
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#249 Sep 11 2012 at 7:33 PM Rating: Good
idiggory, King of Bards wrote:

I still end up with the same problem though. Why bother spending points in other elements if I'm only planning on being in something other than fire for seconds? Seems like a huge waste to me...


Because they're not all element-specific abilities. Stats aside (and that's a pretty big thing to put aside) the 5-points affect the elements sure, but only one of the air 10-pointers is air-specific, one of the earth ones, three of water's and one of arcana. The rest suit particular spell types or playstyles. If you're using glyphs air III's a big improvement. Others boost signets or cantrips.

You get 70 points, anyway, and can only put 30 in fire.
#250 Sep 11 2012 at 7:39 PM Rating: Good
Of course, this isn't the first time I've butted heads with you over a class. It seems like you tend to focus on one part of a class, and discount anything that doesn't directly boost it, while I figure that even if you focus on one part (I spend most of my time in fire too) it's worth aknowledging that the other parts are there and that they can be useful. It may just be how we talk about the things, and play turns out similar.

I haven't figured out much good to say about water though. It's got some small heals and status curing, but that's about it.
#251 Sep 11 2012 at 8:35 PM Rating: Good
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Yes, my issue is with the design of the class. Elementalist is the only class whose traits are linked to specific sets of skills.

Take, say, Warrior who uses an axe/shield and Longbow combo. There isn't a single forced trait in their trees that they will not benefit from. If you are an elementalist who doesn't use Air spells, however, you are completely out a 5-point trait. You will have 100% coverage from each of those traits, regardless of what weapons you have equipped. And we are talking about weapons with fundamentally different play styles. It doesn't mean the return on each is the same, of course. Assuming an axe/shield Warrior would dodge more often, they'd get a higher return from the Strength trait. But they'd still get a return from it, regardless of what skill set they were using.

For the elementalist profession, every single 5-point skill (sans Arcane) is useless to you when not in that attunement. That means they have minimized uptime. And they don't seem, to me at least, to be any more powerful to compensate for it.

Are you getting my point? My complaint is that the design forces you to take traits that are, by nature, only going to be active a portion of the time, unless you stay in that attunement all the time. This devalues them compared to the traits of every other class. Every other trait in the game that only benefits one weapon set is optional within the line (and that includes Engineer, the other class which relies on alternative weapon sets--they don't get a single forced skill tied to the use of any one specific belt).

So yes, you can just take the generic traits in each tree, aimed at buffing utility skills. But if you are an elementalist speccing into an element you do not use, perhaps because you want the stats, and perhaps because you like the utility skill type they buff, you WILL end up with at least two traits that are entirely useless to you.

This literally has nothing to do with what a player might choose to do with regards to hybridization or focus, it's about the obvious design flaw in this class that is not faced by any other class. Taking marksman as a Ranger? And you use a Greatsword? That's fine, you'll get the full effect of every trait in the tree. But say you're a fire Elementalist, and you only plan on using some supplemental earth spells?

Well, it wouldn't be odd to also dump points into Air for increased Crit Chance/Damage (which has synergy with the fire tree) and toughness, to supplement the reason you use Earth spells in the first place. If you spend 5 points, you now have a trait that will never benefit you, if you don't use that attunement. That's my issue. And it's one that ONLY affects this profession, and not a single other one in the game.

Maybe it's not a huge deal. Maybe it is. I don't know, but I do know that I don't like having conditional traits forced on me when no other profession does.

[EDIT]

Seriously though, Necromancers have a 5-point trait where there's a 66% chance for crits to cause bleeding. That's in the curse tree, and it would be super useful for someone who never uses a single curse.

Edited, Sep 11th 2012 10:44pm by idiggory
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