Forum Settings
       
« Previous 1 2
Reply To Thread

Pyromancers are A-holesFollow

#1 Jul 07 2011 at 12:19 PM Rating: Good
Muggle@#%^er
******
20,024 posts


So in Dark Souls, they have given the pyromancer class the ability to conjure an entity called a Gravelord. The ONLY functionality of this ability seems to be that it will invade other worlds (at random, without you controlling it). Once it is in the other player's world, it will spawn NPCs that will attack them nonstop until they kill it (on top of the normal difficulty, which will probably be high judging the game).

So, while not impossible to complete the level without hunting down the gravelord, it's going to be extremely hard to do so.

Oh yeah, and the only thing you get for using it is the satisfaction of making someone else's life harder--the ability itself won't do jack for you. And the invaded player doesn't gain anything for killing it.

So I foresee a common thread in Pyromancers. They are all going to be ********. :P

It's funny though, if this was ANY OTHER GAME I would have serious issues with this. Somehow, the fact that it is Dark Souls doesn't just make it okay, it makes it kinda awesome...

Only thing I would want to see is at least a small bonus added for killing the invader (even if it is just souls equal to a blue/red eyed knight or something). Also, a system that keeps you from getting randomly selected for multiple invaders/invaders within certain time-frames. Just because I know my luck would get me chain invaded, so that I could never finish a level...

Especially considering I foresee just about everyone rolling a pyromancer.
____________________________
IDrownFish wrote:
Anyways, you all are horrible, @#%^ed up people

lolgaxe wrote:
Never underestimate the healing power of a massive dong.
#2 Jul 07 2011 at 12:37 PM Rating: Good
****
6,471 posts
I don't see what's awesome about that at all.

I actually really loved the way that the original game handled multiplayer. Somehow, seeing ghosts and scrawled messages from other players actually made me feel more isolated. As a result, the heavy contrast of an invading player became all the more intense. You had to suddenly adapt to the different style of a human player.

Without any tangible connection between the players, what does this add? It sounds like it's essentially a difficult event with a random factor.

I mean, I get that it fits in with the whole S&M thing that the series has going for it. But did it really need more ways to be frustrating?
#3 Jul 07 2011 at 12:41 PM Rating: Good
Gave Up The D
Avatar
*****
12,281 posts
As long as they randomly pop up and do not actively stalk you I have no problem with it.
____________________________
Shaowstrike (Retired - FFXI)
91PUP/BLM 86SMN/BST 76DRK
Cooking/Fishing 100


"We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary."
— James D. Nicoll
#4 Jul 07 2011 at 1:13 PM Rating: Good
Muggle@#%^er
******
20,024 posts
Yeah, from what it sounds like the Pyromancer doesn't actually control anything but the spawn of the gravelord.

Also note that it's fully possible that they might be giving other classes similar abilities, or be intending to make PvP different by class. For instance, maybe the Pyromancer can only invade worlds using a Gravelord. But maybe the witch can actually Teleport into another's world.

And I think this is actually largely a good change. Demons Soul was a really hard game until you knew the maps. Once you got to that point, it was actually pretty simple. Sure, the process of LEARNING each map had you dying a lot. But that's about it.

Adding random factors that keep the levels from being completely predicable sounds good to me. As long as there is a limit to the Pyromancer's ability to do so at least (they shouldn't be able to just spam their GL ability over and over and over without a CD, creating multiple invaders in many worlds--there should be some kind of cap).

In any case, I'm sure traditional PVP will remain as well. It's a big part of the reason why DS still has a ton of players now, years after the fact.

[EDIT]

For clarification, what it SOUNDS LIKE they do is arrive in a level and stay in that location, but spawn enemies that chase after you (and I assume you are supposed to use the path of enemies to find them).

Edited, Jul 7th 2011 3:14pm by idiggory
____________________________
IDrownFish wrote:
Anyways, you all are horrible, @#%^ed up people

lolgaxe wrote:
Never underestimate the healing power of a massive dong.
#5 Jul 07 2011 at 1:15 PM Rating: Good
Muggle@#%^er
******
20,024 posts
And, actually, I prefer this to a system that just uses the RNG to f*ck you over to artificially raise difficulty. This actually has a player connected to it, which makes it very different imo.
____________________________
IDrownFish wrote:
Anyways, you all are horrible, @#%^ed up people

lolgaxe wrote:
Never underestimate the healing power of a massive dong.
#6 Jul 07 2011 at 1:19 PM Rating: Good
****
6,471 posts
idiggory wrote:
Adding random factors that keep the levels from being completely predicable sounds good to me. As long as there is a limit to the Pyromancer's ability to do so at least (they shouldn't be able to just spam their GL ability over and over and over without a CD, creating multiple invaders in many worlds--there should be some kind of cap).

In any case, I'm sure traditional PVP will remain as well. It's a big part of the reason why DS still has a ton of players now, years after the fact.

[EDIT]

For clarification, what it SOUNDS LIKE they do is arrive in a level and stay in that location, but spawn enemies that chase after you (and I assume you are supposed to use the path of enemies to find them).


But why make it dependent upon a player summoning the NPC? I don't get this. It could just as well be a scripted AI event based on a random factor. Heck, I think that would be preferable, because the devs could easier exert control over the occurrence of the event.

If you make it dependent upon the players, then who's to say that it won't happen too often? Or too little? What if Pyromancer falls into disuse? What if nobody feels like bothering to use the ability?

Something seems very off about this. I'll be surprised if it makes it into the final game as is.
#7 Jul 07 2011 at 1:56 PM Rating: Good
Muggle@#%^er
******
20,024 posts
Eske Esquire wrote:
idiggory wrote:
Adding random factors that keep the levels from being completely predicable sounds good to me. As long as there is a limit to the Pyromancer's ability to do so at least (they shouldn't be able to just spam their GL ability over and over and over without a CD, creating multiple invaders in many worlds--there should be some kind of cap).

In any case, I'm sure traditional PVP will remain as well. It's a big part of the reason why DS still has a ton of players now, years after the fact.

[EDIT]

For clarification, what it SOUNDS LIKE they do is arrive in a level and stay in that location, but spawn enemies that chase after you (and I assume you are supposed to use the path of enemies to find them).


But why make it dependent upon a player summoning the NPC? I don't get this. It could just as well be a scripted AI event based on a random factor. Heck, I think that would be preferable, because the devs could easier exert control over the occurrence of the event.

If you make it dependent upon the players, then who's to say that it won't happen too often? Or too little? What if Pyromancer falls into disuse? What if nobody feels like bothering to use the ability?

Something seems very off about this. I'll be surprised if it makes it into the final game as is.


I'd argue that it being a random event makes it uninteresting, and thus nothing but annoying.

By making its root cause another player, you become aware of the ways your game can interact with others. That encourages you to become more involved with the online community (either positively or negatively, both of which are encouraged).

And I agree that there should be some controls on it, so that players can't be chain invaded because the RNG hates them. But I don't think an RNG script is better at all. It sounds way worse to me.

And I somehow find myself doubting that people won't make use of the ability. Nor do I think the devs would agree that it could be used "too much."
____________________________
IDrownFish wrote:
Anyways, you all are horrible, @#%^ed up people

lolgaxe wrote:
Never underestimate the healing power of a massive dong.
#8 Jul 07 2011 at 2:06 PM Rating: Excellent
****
6,471 posts
idiggory wrote:
I'd argue that it being a random event makes it uninteresting, and thus nothing but annoying.

By making its root cause another player, you become aware of the ways your game can interact with others. That encourages you to become more involved with the online community (either positively or negatively, both of which are encouraged).

And I agree that there should be some controls on it, so that players can't be chain invaded because the RNG hates them. But I don't think an RNG script is better at all. It sounds way worse to me.

And I somehow find myself doubting that people won't make use of the ability. Nor do I think the devs would agree that it could be used "too much."


How does having players control it make it more interesting? As described, it literally does not make a single change in the experience of the event. I mean, I love the idea of players impacting other players' games in original, indirect ways. It's just that I think there are hundreds of better ways of implementing it. Ways where the fact that it is player controlled is evident, and integral to the event. That's what you got with say, the messages and ghosts of the other players.
#9 Jul 07 2011 at 3:09 PM Rating: Good
****
5,684 posts
Isn't this still an RNG controlled event? Sure, some random person has to summon the Gravelord- but it doesn't immediately infect everyone. It's going to be random who gets infected.
#10 Jul 07 2011 at 3:29 PM Rating: Good
****
6,471 posts
xypin wrote:
Isn't this still an RNG controlled event? Sure, some random person has to summon the Gravelord- but it doesn't immediately infect everyone. It's going to be random who gets infected.


Indeed.
#11 Jul 07 2011 at 4:11 PM Rating: Good
Muggle@#%^er
******
20,024 posts
Yeah, but you still are fully aware that the pain you are suffering is directly caused by another player. It's not like they accidentally caused it. They made a conscious decision to ruin someone else's day.

Think about CoD perks (or whatever they are called). Say someone summons a pack of dogs. They have no clue who is going to get killed (or if anyone is). All they know is that the dogs are going to attack enemy players.

Is it heavily random who dies? Hell yes. That doesn't mean you don't directly blame whoever sent them (and one would hope you'd be alerted who summoned the GL into your world).

The only difference in the two scenarios is that you often have a chance to enact revenge on the person who called the dog pack. But that's not always true either, as it isn't like you get to know where on the map they are (and the game could end, or they could leave, etc.)

Part of the premise of Demons Souls has always been an online experience that directly lets other players f*ck with or help you. This is just expanding that system.

I mean, up until now they have had:
-Messages, good or bad.
-Invasion, good or bad.
-Summoning, good or bad.

Messages provided an indirect way to help or harm other players. But it was largely passive--you chose to leave the message, but you had no way of knowing if it was ACTUALLY going to harm anyone.

Invasion was also indirect, since you entered another world at random. But you were able to actively help or harm them.

Summoning was more direct (afaik--never tried it), but only for one side. You chose to enter a world, iirc, and they chose to permit you. So it was more direct on their end. But you could still harm them if you wished.

Now, all they have done is give you a way to more directly harm other players, but through the same indirect strategy as with messages. And I imagine that these gravelords will be a hell of a lot less dangerous than phantoms were.
____________________________
IDrownFish wrote:
Anyways, you all are horrible, @#%^ed up people

lolgaxe wrote:
Never underestimate the healing power of a massive dong.
#12 Jul 07 2011 at 4:46 PM Rating: Decent
Keeper of the Shroud
*****
13,632 posts
It sounds like a terrible idea. No reward for summoning one and no reward for defeating one. All it is is a way for one player to f*ck with another random player. It's basically permission to troll. If they insist on adding such a feature they'd be wise to add a way to disable it beyond playing off line.
#13 Jul 07 2011 at 5:02 PM Rating: Decent
Repressed Memories
******
21,027 posts
Petty lame. I guess my two biggest complaints are the the ability is devoid of any cleverness, and that you are entirely detached from the process.

For detachment, you only have the pleasure of the belief that you are causing someone to suffer. I this gravelord ability literally did nothing and instead the game ran and RNG totally independent of any player action that spawned these in players' games, then no one would be the wiser. You get to imagine that someone is suffering, but you really have no involvement in the process. you aren't ruining their game, their game is being ruined. You are simply an organic RNG, a tool of the machine.

There's also zero cleverness. Is just a griefing switch you turn on. You can't fail or succeed based on your choices.
#14 Jul 07 2011 at 5:08 PM Rating: Good
Muggle@#%^er
******
20,024 posts
I'm assuming you'll be alerted if your Gravelord is successful or dies.

And all this sounds perfectly compatible with the first game, honestly. They encouraged griefing just as much there.
____________________________
IDrownFish wrote:
Anyways, you all are horrible, @#%^ed up people

lolgaxe wrote:
Never underestimate the healing power of a massive dong.
#15 Jul 07 2011 at 5:11 PM Rating: Good
Muggle@#%^er
******
20,024 posts
It also seems like you can add messages to your gravelord. Possibly being able to receive them from the other player as well.

[EDIT]

Kotaku reports that you won't know anything about the attack.

But the devs said they offered it purely because they think their players will enjoy being able to be just a little bit more malicious to other players, even just while playing in their own worlds.

And judging by the people that play DS religiously, they are seriously probably right.

Edited, Jul 7th 2011 7:13pm by idiggory
____________________________
IDrownFish wrote:
Anyways, you all are horrible, @#%^ed up people

lolgaxe wrote:
Never underestimate the healing power of a massive dong.
#16 Jul 07 2011 at 6:48 PM Rating: Good
****
6,471 posts
Well, now its official. That's a stupid idea.
#17 Jul 07 2011 at 6:53 PM Rating: Excellent
*******
50,767 posts
idiggory wrote:
Oh yeah, and the only thing you get for using it is the satisfaction of making someone else's life harder
Good enough reason for me.
____________________________
George Carlin wrote:
I think it’s the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately.
#18 Jul 07 2011 at 7:11 PM Rating: Decent
Muggle@#%^er
******
20,024 posts
lolgaxe wrote:
idiggory wrote:
Oh yeah, and the only thing you get for using it is the satisfaction of making someone else's life harder
Good enough reason for me.


That doesn't surprise me, lol.

Eske wrote:
Well, now its official. That's a stupid idea.


Out of curiosity, did you like Demon's Souls? Because it really doesn't seem like that big a jump to me.
____________________________
IDrownFish wrote:
Anyways, you all are horrible, @#%^ed up people

lolgaxe wrote:
Never underestimate the healing power of a massive dong.
#19 Jul 07 2011 at 7:52 PM Rating: Good
****
6,471 posts
idiggory wrote:
Out of curiosity, did you like Demon's Souls? Because it really doesn't seem like that big a jump to me.


I have a love/hate relationship with it. The difficulty was refreshing in an age where seemingly every game holds your hand, but it definitely toed the line of being too frustrating for me. Beat the game, then traded it in towards Battlefield 3.

I traded it in for a different reason, though: I didn't see much replayability in it for me. My favorite armor was available from the start, and most of my preferred equips could be found fairly early into the game. Watching numbers go up wasn't enough motivation to carry on.

Don't get me wrong, I'm totally fine with the idea of other players @#%^ing with your game. In fact, it was probably my biggest draw to the original. I loved the multiplayer integration. I loved messages that tricked people into jumping off cliffs. I loved the adrenaline rush of an invasion (and I loved punishing them for it with my scraping spear).

But without any physical interaction between characters, or requisite thought or strategy, or even knowledge of the outcome? That's pointless. It's annoyance for the sake of annoyance. In fact, you don't even have the satisfaction of knowing if you're annoying someone, if that's your thing.

And that wouldn't bother me that much, except that there are so many more interesting things they could do. I'd like to see some creativity from my dev team, not a fetishistic obsession with frustration and difficulty.

Edited, Jul 7th 2011 9:53pm by Eske
#20 Jul 07 2011 at 9:10 PM Rating: Decent
Repressed Memories
******
21,027 posts
There is hard and then there is invisible coin block hard. If you die to something because you couldn't possibly know it was there, that's coin block difficulty.
#21 Jul 07 2011 at 9:41 PM Rating: Good
Muggle@#%^er
******
20,024 posts
Quote:
There is hard and then there is invisible coin block hard. If you die to something because you couldn't possibly know it was there, that's coin block difficulty.


That's the entire game, though. And they don't try to hide it. There's no reason to object to this specific change for that reason, because the entire game clearly isn't for you anyway.

Plus, this clearly doesn't fit into the category. Nowhere do they assert that the GL is anything like insta-death. It exists solely to increase the difficulty of finishing the level unless you decide to hunt the thing down.

Just sending units after you isn't really bad at all in a DS context. What killed you was the traps/units jumping out at you/learning the strategy to deal with them.
____________________________
IDrownFish wrote:
Anyways, you all are horrible, @#%^ed up people

lolgaxe wrote:
Never underestimate the healing power of a massive dong.
#22 Jul 08 2011 at 7:39 AM Rating: Good
*****
13,251 posts
Are they going to do the thing where you can't easily co-op with a friend again? It was really annoying having to kind of hide your mark and guide a friend to it just to play together.
#23 Jul 08 2011 at 6:34 PM Rating: Decent
***
1,162 posts
Quote:
Also, a system that keeps you from getting randomly selected for multiple invaders/invaders within certain time-frames



I'm guessing it will be like the original. You can't get invaded until you reach a certain a level or when you are in soul form.

#24 Jul 08 2011 at 6:41 PM Rating: Good
Gave Up The D
Avatar
*****
12,281 posts
feelz wrote:
Quote:
Also, a system that keeps you from getting randomly selected for multiple invaders/invaders within certain time-frames



I'm guessing it will be like the original. You can't get invaded until you reach a certain a level or when you are in soul form.




Actually you can get invaded at any level, the game automatically chooses an invader in the same soul level range as yourself to keep it fair. You yourself couldn't invade anyone until you beat the Black Phantom in world 3-1 and get the Black Nexus Stone. Nothing would be stopping you from having a boss monster or a friend Soul Drain you back down to level 1 while you still have the black stone.
____________________________
Shaowstrike (Retired - FFXI)
91PUP/BLM 86SMN/BST 76DRK
Cooking/Fishing 100


"We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary."
— James D. Nicoll
#25 Jul 08 2011 at 7:17 PM Rating: Good
Muggle@#%^er
******
20,024 posts
Though grabbing the Cling Ring and just running in Soul Form kept all invaders out anyway, no? Well, the CR doesn't do anything but make the game less horrifying in soul form...
____________________________
IDrownFish wrote:
Anyways, you all are horrible, @#%^ed up people

lolgaxe wrote:
Never underestimate the healing power of a massive dong.
#26 Jul 08 2011 at 7:24 PM Rating: Decent
***
1,162 posts
Quote:
Though grabbing the Cling Ring and just running in Soul Form kept all invaders out anyway, no?


or you can just play offline if you really want to keep invaders out. If you're not into that whole invading thing, there's really no downside to playing offline.


« Previous 1 2
Reply To Thread

Colors Smileys Quote OriginalQuote Checked Help

 

Recent Visitors: 198 All times are in CST
Anonymous Guests (198)