What Does SOE gain from keeping players in the dark, why not shed a little more light on the subject every now and again. It is starting to seem to me that sometimes SOE makes ambiguous non-comital statements and broadcasts so that they don't have to worry about validating their work.
Before I go any furhter, let me say that I believe that the work SOE has done thus far has been quality. Like everyone else, I have a few things I would like changed about SWG, however; I don't expect change over night. I also don't expect SOE to meet all of my expectations.
What I am asking for is the facts. Since I first opened the SWG box and flipped through the starter book (read from cover to cover while at workk the first day I had the game)I have believed there to be a communication issue between SOE and the SWG constituants. The starter manual itself is full of vagueries. I know that SWG is a dynamic MMORPG that is changing constantly so I can't expect the rules to be set in stone. What I could and should expect is a full and detailed explination of how succes and failure work with in the SWG system.
This doesn't mean that I wan't there to be any randomness to the outcome of every encounter, simply that I want to know the facts of the situation of an encounter. For instance instead of surfing the net trying to determine the differences in the Armor types and there effects both on encumbrance and or protection, or the way a specific ability works/or doesn't work. I would like it if SOE would simply published the information.
I am not asking for specifics in terms of Armor ratings based on materials used for creation, for discovering effective components to make items is a large part of the game.
What I am asking for is specific cause and effect information. If I use mask scent what determines wether a creatures detect me and what determines how many XP I get if the beastie doesn't detect me.
Like all games SWG has rules, what I am asking for is a copy of the Rule book by which we are all playing, instead of having to stumbling through with out a clue or spend hours surfing the net for another players speculation on the issue.
Monopoly by most definitions was the first archaic RPG game. The rules were simple you role the dice you move around the board, you pay the fines or coillect the rent and who ever is left standing wins. The game has set rules but the results are varried and made unpredictable by the roling of the die. I am not asking SOE to stop rolling the die, I am asking SOE to give me the rulesI am asking SOE to give me the rules.
If they don't want to give me schematics, fine. If they don't want to tell me what components are needed to make superior armor, fine. If they don't want to tell the players where the loot is, how to get it, and the end of the story line, Great... I don't want to know any of those things. If I knew the answers to those questions what would be the point in playing. What I want to know is when I work my way up through the pistoleer skill tree, and obtain pistoleer master, if someone asks me well how good are you with a pistol, I can say more then good. I want to be able to give qualifying factors such as speed or acuracy in terms that make sense to other players. I want a Qualitative/Quantitaive accounting.
Oh you say those numbers are posted in the game, yes but only after you have spent the skill points. But even if you do have the numbers, SOE doesn't bother to tell you what the numbers mean. So my armor is +30 across the board, great, what does that mean, or I have a skill of +35 in musical healing; what does that mean. How do the +/- effect numbers effect the outcomes of my given situations.
Don't flame me and say -well all that information is obtainable on "such and such" a website-, because that is not the point. I am not playing SWG to search the net to find out how to play. I shouldn't have to struggle just to find the rules to the game. I play to immerse myself in the StarWars Worlds, not to plague myself with innumerable questions that SOE hasn't bothered to or just won't answer about the product they are selling me.
I understand that the rules are most likely statisticly based and that not everyone would not necesarily understand the rules. This however does not promote any exscuse for neglecting to give the rules however complex to us.
Don't even get me started on the lack of real, static progress reports, you know there is such a thing as a project deadline. There projected because because they are in progress and problems come up and change release dates, but they do estimate a reasonable time in which to expect change. But I digress, that's not realy even one of my major beefs.
One Last Plea; Just be honest and direct with your consumer, tell us how it is and then follow through with it. Don't leave out anymore details then you have too, set deadlines and keep them.
You given us the board to play on, and put the dice in our hands, now just give us the rules so we can figure out if we need to buy the property we land on, or if we are even going in the right direction around the board.
"G"
-Let Fly the Dogs of War,
For the Enemy is Upon Us,
And It is our selves-
Edited, Sat Feb 14 16:25:32 2004 by Syljon
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37 posts
If you want to find out what certain skill mods do, open up your skill sheet and hover over the skill mod you want to see.
I thought it was pretty obvious what it meant if armor had +30%... that means that any attacks from that type will be reduced by 30%.
I thought it was pretty obvious what it meant if armor had +30%... that means that any attacks from that type will be reduced by 30%.
26 posts
Why dont you ask someone on the game???
1) I do know how to determine what a skill mod does, that is not what I am asking SOE to give us the players, what I am asking is for the devs to not only give a cursory explination of what the ability does, but also how efective the ability is.
2) Secondly yes a positive numbers of greator numerical value are more desired when it comes to an items effectiveness. However the % next to the 30 does not mean totally that an armor peace repels 30% of all damage of that specific type. For instance I know that there is a rating system in which certain armors are deemed ineffective by certain weapons and vice versa, and the percentages are no where near 100%. There is an overall rating to armor that makes it more or less effective which is not explained.
Besides, you missed my overall goal. I am not trying to determin a secific armors effectiveness, what I want is to determine the overall systen upon which all effects with in the game are based.
3) Finally the simple reason I don't ask these kinds of questions in game are for two reasons realy.
a)I don't trust all players to give me the apropriate and correct answers, as I have witnessed many a time, and
b) The details which I am requesting would be better and more acurately explained in a well thought out readable format, vs a one line by line run down by a player who would rather be hunting or crafting then explaining game mechanics.
I am sorry if most of you see this as a negative, whining, running commentary, but if any of you have ever read my posts, you would know that they are usually up beat, positive, and helpful. It just seems to me that this is a major peace of neglegence by SOE and I have grown more frustrated with this problem as I played on wondering if my next step will be fatal mistake or colossal financial, or even worse time loss in game.
"G"
"To know ones self is to know ones Enemy"
2) Secondly yes a positive numbers of greator numerical value are more desired when it comes to an items effectiveness. However the % next to the 30 does not mean totally that an armor peace repels 30% of all damage of that specific type. For instance I know that there is a rating system in which certain armors are deemed ineffective by certain weapons and vice versa, and the percentages are no where near 100%. There is an overall rating to armor that makes it more or less effective which is not explained.
Besides, you missed my overall goal. I am not trying to determin a secific armors effectiveness, what I want is to determine the overall systen upon which all effects with in the game are based.
3) Finally the simple reason I don't ask these kinds of questions in game are for two reasons realy.
a)I don't trust all players to give me the apropriate and correct answers, as I have witnessed many a time, and
b) The details which I am requesting would be better and more acurately explained in a well thought out readable format, vs a one line by line run down by a player who would rather be hunting or crafting then explaining game mechanics.
I am sorry if most of you see this as a negative, whining, running commentary, but if any of you have ever read my posts, you would know that they are usually up beat, positive, and helpful. It just seems to me that this is a major peace of neglegence by SOE and I have grown more frustrated with this problem as I played on wondering if my next step will be fatal mistake or colossal financial, or even worse time loss in game.
"G"
"To know ones self is to know ones Enemy"
I guess most of you are disagreing with me, since before I started this post my rating was a 3.2 and now I am down to 2.8. Well it only goes to show you that sometimes when you think you have something to say, and you think others might agree with you, you are wrong.
You say what you think because of how strongly you have grown to feel, hoping that someone will justify or at least sympathize with you, and some how you only end up shooting yourself in the foot.
"G"
"A legacy is not what you save, but what you give away"
You say what you think because of how strongly you have grown to feel, hoping that someone will justify or at least sympathize with you, and some how you only end up shooting yourself in the foot.
"G"
"A legacy is not what you save, but what you give away"
LOL, Me too bro! Some one voted me off of being able to rank posts people write. Funny thing is I have added some great content viewed or not! Check out master scout in a day thread.
I see you point though it is worded rather well actually. The point you bring up about skill mods was a bad example to some. (Not me) Some people can't read your deeper meaning of them selecting too hide facts or knowledge the players should know. Next time just use the following example. You would want your skill path and not have a silent holo, but instead master 15 known ones! That describes the sort of hiding of info that everyone can relate too agree or disagree I could care less about silent or not. I got what you meant.
Yes people vote you down simply for opinion. Only post of mine I can think of that deserved to be voted down was telling a flamer to STFU and hit the road. These people voting down other good people are the same people at my work that are so up tight they went to HR when their trainer played them a movie. Before anyone defends them think of it this way your conservative right, I am liberal left.
Oh well some nice person vote syljon and I back up. I only ever voted down two people on this board lordofthefacts and sone.
Edited, Sat Feb 14 18:01:55 2004 by ALuckyShot
I see you point though it is worded rather well actually. The point you bring up about skill mods was a bad example to some. (Not me) Some people can't read your deeper meaning of them selecting too hide facts or knowledge the players should know. Next time just use the following example. You would want your skill path and not have a silent holo, but instead master 15 known ones! That describes the sort of hiding of info that everyone can relate too agree or disagree I could care less about silent or not. I got what you meant.
Yes people vote you down simply for opinion. Only post of mine I can think of that deserved to be voted down was telling a flamer to STFU and hit the road. These people voting down other good people are the same people at my work that are so up tight they went to HR when their trainer played them a movie. Before anyone defends them think of it this way your conservative right, I am liberal left.
Oh well some nice person vote syljon and I back up. I only ever voted down two people on this board lordofthefacts and sone.
Edited, Sat Feb 14 18:01:55 2004 by ALuckyShot
I hate to add to my already labourously long string, but I just found a link that makes my point exactly. Using my armor scenareo from above, and the responding answers. 30% does not reduce damage from an attack of the same type by just 30%. First, all player armor has a armor level of 1 at this time, which reduces damage of all types by something like 50% depending who you talk to. The armor only reduces damage to the corresponding limb or body part that it covers and the bonuses are not cumalative. The percentag you see next to a certain type of damage is then added protection on top of this. This means that if you were shot by a blaster for an even 100 points of damage, and the area you were hit on was covered by a peace of armor with a blast protection of 30%, you would then only take 35 points of damage. Heres the math [(total damage{100pts}-50%{AR1})= 50pts-15pts(30% armor bonus)=35 total points of damage not protected against by the armor. If This is still a conundrum for you take a look at this web site which explains it much better then I can here.
So the statment makes my point, because probably most of the players out there believe this to be factual and true, when as you see [Orange]it is not true. This is why I want SOE to make the rules clear, so players don't have misconceptions that lead to miscontentment in the game.
If every one out there new how the system worked there would probably be fewer people crazed for Composite armor. There would still be quite a few don't get me wrong, I still consider it one of the best types of armor, but against most moderate to low damage sources your not going to even see the bonus % of protection from the armor because the AR of 1 already reduces the damage significantly.
For instance a creature does 10 points of damage and attacks a person with 20% kinetic protection bounus Ubese armor,the total damage taken is 4points of damage, the same creature attacks a person with 40% composite armor and this time the person only takes 3pts of damage.The total difference in damage is only 1 point and negligable.
"G"
So the statment
Quote:
I thought it was pretty obvious what it ment if armor had +30%...that means that any attacks from that type will be reduced 30%
If every one out there new how the system worked there would probably be fewer people crazed for Composite armor. There would still be quite a few don't get me wrong, I still consider it one of the best types of armor, but against most moderate to low damage sources your not going to even see the bonus % of protection from the armor because the AR of 1 already reduces the damage significantly.
For instance a creature does 10 points of damage and attacks a person with 20% kinetic protection bounus Ubese armor,the total damage taken is 4points of damage, the same creature attacks a person with 40% composite armor and this time the person only takes 3pts of damage.The total difference in damage is only 1 point and negligable.
"G"
Sorry about the highlighting, I didn't mean to turn everything orange.
I believe the reason that SoE and most other MMORPG's do NOT give out that exact formula's and modifiers used is because of forums and players such as these.
While it frustrates, the knowledge that you "don't exactly" know prevents this from becoming a "my armor is this...my stats this...my skill this...so why do I suffer 40% damage when it should be 39.98%" type thread.
They make it "vague" on purpose, so players aren't calling them to task on all little inconsistencies that might pop-up in the code.
Just some thoughts...
SoE prefers to be more like the 'Weatherman' on TV than the PBS narrator.
While it frustrates, the knowledge that you "don't exactly" know prevents this from becoming a "my armor is this...my stats this...my skill this...so why do I suffer 40% damage when it should be 39.98%" type thread.
They make it "vague" on purpose, so players aren't calling them to task on all little inconsistencies that might pop-up in the code.
Just some thoughts...
SoE prefers to be more like the 'Weatherman' on TV than the PBS narrator.
Just a Humnle Thank you too whom ever voted me back up! I really don't vote others down unless they should just quite posting here and only met two of them thus far.
Thanks again
Sincerely AluckyShot
Thanks again
Sincerely AluckyShot
Quote:
I do know how to determine what a skill mod does, that is not what I am asking SOE to give us the players, what I am asking is for the devs to not only give a cursory explination of what the ability does, but also how efective the ability is.
You evidently do not read the various sony forums on the game. This stuff is explained in detail from damage mitigation to attacks to numerous other development things.
Try reading these forums along with your professional forum:
Test Center Changes
In Concept
Developer Notes Forum
Discussion Notes Forum
Game Guides Notes Forum
Galactic Civil War (PvP) Forum
Sony Professional Forums Page
I hear what you're saying, but I have to say it seems a bit unrealistic. The level of detail in the underwriting in the game is quite complex. There are so many dynamics to the system it would be too much to ask (in my humble opinion) to expect the dev's to illustrate it all for you.
But allow me to throw in what I have come to understand in my playing of the game:
When it comes down to it, its like any pen-and-paper RPG, it settles heavily on random chance. Example, you swing to hit, the computer takes all the relelvant modifiers, generates a random number, then matches the result against a table of possible outcomes. This applies to everything you do that falls on skills. Modifiers come from several places, some of them from your character, many of them from environment and NPC/MOB's. To ask the dev's to illustrate every roll is to ask them to write a dictionary on the coding for this game. That is what I think is unrealistic. But, you can gather generalizations from experienced players, just take multiple sources, including these forums, and you can discover how things work.
You mention armor. Craftables is an even trickier thing. Part of the reason they can't tell you what armor is 'best' or carries what attributes is because, with armor, as with all craftable items, the market is real. The quality and stats (to keep with armor as our example) of, say, a padded armor chest plate, varies with who made it, and the quality of the material they used. An armorsmith with poor skills, or just a lack of understanding of the crafting system, will turn out a very different piece than a master armorsmith with good materials, special components, and a healthy knowledge of his craft. Its that range that makes it entirely impossible for anyone to tell you exactly what item carries what info.
That being said, I've had many people ask me which <XXX> is the best (I am or have been a master crafter in most every field). Here's what I've discovered, most of the stuff you will find will be sadly substandard. Its an unfortunate reality, but many people who take on the crafter mantle don't bother to learn how to make a quality product. But, among those who turn out good products, I can generalize for weapons, armor, tools, etc. No single design is necessarily better than any other, it usually has everything to do with the crafter and the materials. The same master weaponsmith can turn out five different types of pistols with roughly the same effectiveness (accounting for damage range, speed, and accuracy), the only difference being damage type. Arguments can be made for damage type (its more common to find targets with low acid resist...).
And, while I'm on the topic, Armor. I'm tired of seeing everyone and their mother in full suits of composite. Granted, it has its benefits, but I will never run around in a suit of comp now, because I would look like EVERYONE else! The sad truth is, unless you have some spectacular armor, or a master doc on hand to buff you back up, the penalties out-weigh the benefits (sure your armor cuts the damage in half, but you don't regenerate any more, and the stuff that gets through is more damaging).
wow, I have rambled on far longer than I meant to... =)
Having said all that, I have spent a lot of the time learning how the many systems in the game work, on the level you are askiong about. So go ahead, if you have a question, ask it, and I'll tell you what I know.
But allow me to throw in what I have come to understand in my playing of the game:
When it comes down to it, its like any pen-and-paper RPG, it settles heavily on random chance. Example, you swing to hit, the computer takes all the relelvant modifiers, generates a random number, then matches the result against a table of possible outcomes. This applies to everything you do that falls on skills. Modifiers come from several places, some of them from your character, many of them from environment and NPC/MOB's. To ask the dev's to illustrate every roll is to ask them to write a dictionary on the coding for this game. That is what I think is unrealistic. But, you can gather generalizations from experienced players, just take multiple sources, including these forums, and you can discover how things work.
You mention armor. Craftables is an even trickier thing. Part of the reason they can't tell you what armor is 'best' or carries what attributes is because, with armor, as with all craftable items, the market is real. The quality and stats (to keep with armor as our example) of, say, a padded armor chest plate, varies with who made it, and the quality of the material they used. An armorsmith with poor skills, or just a lack of understanding of the crafting system, will turn out a very different piece than a master armorsmith with good materials, special components, and a healthy knowledge of his craft. Its that range that makes it entirely impossible for anyone to tell you exactly what item carries what info.
That being said, I've had many people ask me which <XXX> is the best (I am or have been a master crafter in most every field). Here's what I've discovered, most of the stuff you will find will be sadly substandard. Its an unfortunate reality, but many people who take on the crafter mantle don't bother to learn how to make a quality product. But, among those who turn out good products, I can generalize for weapons, armor, tools, etc. No single design is necessarily better than any other, it usually has everything to do with the crafter and the materials. The same master weaponsmith can turn out five different types of pistols with roughly the same effectiveness (accounting for damage range, speed, and accuracy), the only difference being damage type. Arguments can be made for damage type (its more common to find targets with low acid resist...).
And, while I'm on the topic, Armor. I'm tired of seeing everyone and their mother in full suits of composite. Granted, it has its benefits, but I will never run around in a suit of comp now, because I would look like EVERYONE else! The sad truth is, unless you have some spectacular armor, or a master doc on hand to buff you back up, the penalties out-weigh the benefits (sure your armor cuts the damage in half, but you don't regenerate any more, and the stuff that gets through is more damaging).
wow, I have rambled on far longer than I meant to... =)
Having said all that, I have spent a lot of the time learning how the many systems in the game work, on the level you are askiong about. So go ahead, if you have a question, ask it, and I'll tell you what I know.
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