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Tol BaradFollow

#1 Dec 25 2010 at 4:07 AM Rating: Decent
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As a refreshing change of pace the Horde is apparently totally and utterly owning TB on my server - hoping this is the exception and not the norm so that Blizz doesn't nerf it.

Not sure if this is due to the rather difficult win conditions of the place combined with the Horde getting lucky and starting on D or that it's simply designed in a way that works well with the general mindset of Horde players?

Another possibility is that the past year or so of WG dominance has destroyed my server's Ally PvP skills. After WG was changed last year the balance went obscenely into the Alliance's favor resulting in them rolling the Horde through shear numbers every battle - if we didn't have T10 then it was only because it was an off hour with a normally low population.

This resulted in two things - first, the Allies had no ability to work on personal PvP skills due to the rarity of a one on one fight - they got to the point where they'd run if they didn't have at least three to one odds in a fight (they wouldn't even show their faces on the castle walls till they cleared T3). The result was that after the equalization fix kicked in the battles got a lot more balanced, although the second point still gave the Allies a significant edge.

Said second point is that the easy honor meant that the Ally players inevitably outgeared the Horde, thus further degrading their skills as they lacked the ability and the need to progress beyond a certain point as their gear (combined with shear numbers) made up the difference.

So now they're in TB and they don't have superior numbers nor superior PvP gear and it really shows - unless most of their team hits the same point they can't take it - the Horde players are too used to fighting heavy odds and without the obscene amounts of resilience and high end weapons the Alliance used to have they're getting slaughtered in toe to toe fights.

For those who haven't tried it yet TB is basically a cross between, well, nothing really.

You've got a fort in the center of the field - that's where D rezzes from (haven't been on O yet so no clue where we come from).

There are three objective areas and three towers evenly staggered around the field in a circle, basically turning the BG into a giant clock. The towers need to be destroyed by O - each one destroyed adds time to the clock (5m I think with a 15m starting time, meaning a max BG length of 30m). To win, O needs to hold all three of the objective points at the same time - you capture them in the same way you capture workshops in WG.

There are tanks scattered around the field with ton of health and they apparently can't be attacked unless someone's in them, thus cutting down on D simply trashing all of the vehicles before O can even reach them. The tanks are only for O and apparently have little/nothing in the way of anti-infantry capabilities as I've never seen anyone employ them against the players.

D wins by keeping O from capping all three objective points at once - basically they're just trying to run down the clock.

I haven't seen Horde simply all pile into on objective point and hold it via turtle yet so I'm guessing there's some sort of mechanic that makes that unfeasible, then again, Horde doesn't tend to turtle on my server/BG so maybe that's the reason - Ally tend to travel in packs and would rather simply get a lead and then turtle down the clock (not judging them, simply stating preferred tactics - whether that's good or bad is your own personal call) while Horde players just can't seem to keep still, wanting the max cap win and splitting up evenly over all of the objectives.

Whichever side wins gets some daily quest which appear in the castle mid-field - there's two quest givers and yesterday I got a total of six quests but today just three - no clue why?

Rewards are honor and TB tokens (three for a win and I'm guessing one for a loss) which can be used at the quartermaster like the old WG tokens. The gear is all pretty solid plus there's a seagull NC pet, a ghostwolf land mount and one of the compass point dragons so even if you aren't a PvP fan this place is worth doing at least for the dailies (all of which give tokens).

There's no such thing as "fighting in mid field" as there really isn't one - all of the combat takes place at the three objective points which is nice as it means the HK farmer types will actually be contributing towards objectives.

Also haven't noticed any issues with people AFKing - no clue if there's a mechanic to prevent it or if it's simply a case of the serious players crowding out the AFK crowd in the queues, thus making them too rare to be noticed for now.

Right now the battles are still pretty small due to the equalizer - I don't know if the problem is there not being enough Allies interested in doing TB to fill the queue or if they're already so discouraged that they aren't winning that they aren't queuing. I know there isn't an issue with enough of them getting in because if you don't queue at the 10-15m wait mark Horde side then you aren't getting in.

So what's it like?

As D, nothing really special - you cycle around from one objective point to the other trying to take them back from O so they can't have all three at once - haven't seen O hold more then one objective point yet though. All said, neither exciting nor boring - really just straight fighting - haven't done O yet so can't comment on that.

Right now I've only had a chance to do it with my main (my only 85 toon) a feral druid. He's got a 322 gear rating and 119k health in bear form and is proving to be quite the terror, especially against Ally zerges when he can just rush a group and pop berserk, SI and barkskin then simply start chain mangling them. Mangle tends to crit a lot resulting in lots of peeps who don't seem to realize that bears can DPS now taking 15k hits they weren't expecting to take - if someone doesn't CC me or, God forbid, I've got a friendly healer paying attention to me and everyone ignoring the healer then things turn ugly real fast for anyone on the wrong side of my claws.

The achievement list is kinda weak and I'm not sure if the 100 victory achievement is working as I'm not showing any listed despite having three wins so far. The 10m win achievement is also apparently broken as it gives the impression that you can only get it while on O, plus, I got it when I ended up getting in late in a battle, meaning that while it was <10m from the time I started fighting till we won, it wasn't a 10m win for the Horde.

All said, this is gear/toy farming for my main (and other toons when they can start doing it) right now. HK farmers will love this place, AOE classes are lethal and I rather suspect that a coordinated guild premade could easily overcome the problem with how it difficult it is to win on O.
#2 Dec 25 2010 at 5:27 PM Rating: Excellent
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It's pretty simple: the mechanics of Tol Barad are staggeringly awful and i'm astounded they made it live. Attacking sucessfully is virtually impossible, especially with small numbers on either side. Tol Barad changes hands in the dead of night on my server.

Edited, Dec 25th 2010 6:27pm by ArtemisEnteri
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#3 Dec 25 2010 at 6:48 PM Rating: Excellent
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ArtemisEnteri wrote:
It's pretty simple: the mechanics of Tol Barad are staggeringly awful and i'm astounded they made it live. Attacking sucessfully is virtually impossible, especially with small numbers on either side. Tol Barad changes hands in the dead of night on my server.

Edited, Dec 25th 2010 6:27pm by ArtemisEnteri



Read an article on WoW Insider exactly about this issue.

Link: http://wow.joystiq.com/2010/12/17/the-problems-with-tol-barad-and-how-to-fix-them/
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#4 Dec 25 2010 at 7:22 PM Rating: Good
I don't even know how to play, capture the bases or something? I've only played once and was on defense and we just ran around retaking bases from allies so I don't really know how we won except for the fact the time ran out.
#5 Dec 25 2010 at 7:41 PM Rating: Good
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Tol Barad uses the 1 : 1 matching queue system. So if your server has very few alliance and only 10 queue up, only 10 horde will get in as well (unless none of a given faction queue at all, then as many of the opposite faction can enter). The defending team spawn in the middle (let's say the alliance). Attackers spawn at the iron bridge conecting the battleground to the peninsula questing area.

The three control points start under the defending side's control and already we have a problem. It will take even the full raid of 10 horde players a LONG time to fully capture even one of these. Remember, the clock is ticking. Destroying towers is done using the siege engines. You need to have obtained one HK to pilot them, after that you just drive them to a tower, deploy them and they will attack automatically while you defend them, or do something else. Destroying each of the 3 towers gives +5 minutes to the clock, or more time for the attacking side to succeed; nothing else changes.

The control points are captured by having members of your faction near them, each member contributes a little to the bar moving toward your side and ultimately control. Enemy players in the area have the opposite effect. Another problem. If the defending sidfe all stand at one point, throughout the long battle the bar wont move at all. Even if the attacking forces massacre the enemy and all survive (this is unlikely of course) the bar will move a few millimetres in their favour before the defenders spawn from the central graveyard and stop the bar moving again (or simply go and recapture a different point. Like that linked article says, dying while defending is meaningless because you spawn close to every important control point). Capturing a point is agonizingly slow. So to have all 3 at the same time without losing one to a lone enemy player is pretty much never going to happen.

Edited, Dec 25th 2010 8:42pm by ArtemisEnteri

Edited, Dec 25th 2010 8:43pm by ArtemisEnteri
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#6 Dec 25 2010 at 8:48 PM Rating: Decent
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Looks like they either reset the server and Ally won the coin toss, we had a really bad group on D or a premade on O because Allies now have it.

Ended up walking into the middle of the fight - was quite disconcerting spawning on the bridge - thought the battle had ended on me at first. Apparently there is no disadvantage to turtling - just about every Ally on the board was parked at one flag with a few lone wolf types running around ninjaing the others. Under normal circumstances that wouldn't have been a problem but this Horde crew was positively disfunctional - I don't think a single one of them was over 16. O_o
#7 Dec 25 2010 at 10:28 PM Rating: Default
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ArtemisEnteri wrote:
It's pretty simple: the mechanics of Tol Barad are staggeringly awful and i'm astounded they made it live. Attacking sucessfully is virtually impossible, especially with small numbers on either side. Tol Barad changes hands in the dead of night on my server.

Edited, Dec 25th 2010 6:27pm by ArtemisEnteri

Yep, said this a week or two ago.

It's pretty terrible.
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#8 Dec 26 2010 at 11:57 AM Rating: Decent
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Pretty terrible does not quite cover the hideous and blatantly obvious design flaw of the system.
How this ever made it live is a miracle.
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#9 Dec 26 2010 at 8:41 PM Rating: Default
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Apparently turtling on one base isn't as good an idea as it seems - Horde took TB back today during normal hours.

Was funny though - apparently word hadn't gotten out that Horde had it back as there was a terrific turnout by the Allies - had at least one full raid group when I did it today.
#10 Dec 27 2010 at 2:10 PM Rating: Default
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rusttle wrote:
Apparently turtling on one base isn't as good an idea as it seems - Horde took TB back today during normal hours.

Was funny though - apparently word hadn't gotten out that Horde had it back as there was a terrific turnout by the Allies - had at least one full raid group when I did it today.

How isn't it a good idea? Unless you suck, the other team can't win.
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#11 Dec 27 2010 at 5:27 PM Rating: Good
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Tb defense goes like this.

Turtle one base.

Alliance attacks next base.

Zerg that base.

Profit.

Its just a circle of ****. Worst design ever, but Horde has it on my server pretty much 24/7 so I guess I can't complain.
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#12 Dec 27 2010 at 6:40 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:

How isn't it a good idea? Unless you suck, the other team can't win.


See the TL,DR OP - Allies on my server are so used to outnumbering Horde T10+ from WG and outgearing them due to all the honor they previously racked up that I sincerely doubt most of them know how to fight anymore.

Remember, I'm self-proclaimed PvP bottom 50% yet if I get jumped going from point A to B I've been winning consistently with anything less then 3-1 gankage and even then I always take out at least one of them, two about half the time and all three (or the third one flees) every once in a while, so yeah, pure suckage on Ally's part on my server.
#13 Dec 28 2010 at 3:46 AM Rating: Excellent
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The change to have it give 1800 Honor for a win will do nothing to make the game play better, it will only encourage win trading.
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#14 Dec 28 2010 at 11:49 AM Rating: Good
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Alliance on my server failed so hard at this last night. We were defending, let the horde cap Ironclad and Slagworks, then they zerged us at Warden's, and instead of leaving the graveyard to cap one of the unguarded areas, the entire Alliance team stood around until the horde capped Warden's too. I am terrible at pvp and even I know that's not how you win.

EDIT: Apparently my server's decided to trade wins, which is why we intentionally lost last night. Makes a bit more sense now.

Edited, Dec 28th 2010 6:12pm by Tellaria
#15 Dec 28 2010 at 1:20 PM Rating: Decent
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one strategy is to have a large force in the center CC-ing, slowing, fearing and stunning people in the center, which is the defenders only spawn point. The aim is not to kill, though one is free to do so, but to keep htem as locked as possible and waste their time. A smaller force moves as pack and catches the points. Those who die, rez and rush back to continue their jobs. This has met with some degree of consistent success where attempted. Though it has clear problems.

However not too big and not too small. The point catchers need to be big enough to defend themselves.

Good thing is it helps what comes best to pvp bads, fighting in the center.

problem with this is it needs some coordination and its hard to cover all sides and the raid may have to say, increase the size of the groups depending on what they're facing.

All i really know is its better than the Tol Barad Merry Go Round Express.
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#16 Dec 29 2010 at 4:37 AM Rating: Good
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Sounds like an accurate depiction of siege warfare to me. It's generally a pretty bad idea to try and assault a fortified position with a garrison equal in number to your attacking force.

Praise be to Blizzard for injecting some realism into the game.
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#17 Dec 29 2010 at 4:36 PM Rating: Good
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My server now win trades.

**** yes easy honor.
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#18 Dec 29 2010 at 4:55 PM Rating: Decent
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ArexLovesPie wrote:
My server now win trades.

**** yes easy honor.
Idem dito for Kazzak EU.
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#19 Dec 30 2010 at 2:06 AM Rating: Decent
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If Allies on my server are trying to win swap they're going about it horrifically wrong - none of them are showing up for the fight resulting in the handful of Horde that can get in being unable to win. I hit the queue this evening literally the second the timer let me, didn't get a slot and the battle ended 15m later.
#20 Dec 30 2010 at 5:32 AM Rating: Good
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His Excellency Aethien wrote:
ArexLovesPie wrote:
My server now win trades.

**** yes easy honor.
Idem dito for Kazzak EU.


The post 'battle' PvP has escalated by a large margin since win swapping started on my server. Makes the dailies that much more fun.
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#21 Dec 30 2010 at 4:08 PM Rating: Good
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Same goes for my server Horse.

Literally nothing happens during attacks and then its like **** just explodes onto tol barad after that.
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#22 Dec 31 2010 at 3:06 PM Rating: Decent
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Battles used to be horrific, and amazingly hard to defend anything. Mob slaughterfest. Frankly, I nearly hated it ... hard as **** to attack and win, defending seemed likewise.

Win trading has taken over and I see no *self censored expletive*-ing reason to keep this in the game. There's nothing worthwhile happening, defending is now pointless, and I simply have another reason to gripe about Blizz's sh*tty design choices.

Edited, Dec 31st 2010 4:08pm by Azaza
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#23 Dec 31 2010 at 11:30 PM Rating: Good
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I'm all for the win trading. With the horrible queue times for battlegrounds the honor grind has been staggeringly awful. Like, 50-100 honor per hour awful. This is pretty much the only way I'm getting my Bloodthirsty pieces.

The only problem is that everyone's caught onto it and getting into TB has become difficult. It seems to be random rather than actually tied to when you enter the queue. I think somewhere along the line they missed the definition of "queue." What they're using seems more like a "list."
#24 Jan 01 2011 at 12:34 AM Rating: Default
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Quote:

The post 'battle' PvP has escalated by a large margin since win swapping started on my server. Makes the dailies that much more fun.


Does the zone stay flagged? If not then just wait five minutes and you're fine.
#25 Jan 01 2011 at 3:23 AM Rating: Good
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Rusttle, it's a PvP zone, what do you think?
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#26 Jan 01 2011 at 4:56 AM Rating: Good
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There is this thing you can use, which I prefer not to, if you are failing to get into the queue.

Basically you run onto the bridge that gets you to tol barad during the fight and the 'You are not meant to be here, will get ported soon' comes. You just need to time it so that you are in the zone as the win/loss happens and you get all the rewards.

You can also run off the zone and then back in again to stop the porting.

I personally do not use it but if you never get in... easy honor!
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