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Incoming human nerf in 4.0.1.Follow

#27 Sep 18 2010 at 3:23 PM Rating: Default
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idiggory wrote:
The cannibalize change is really nice for Undead casters. Since mana actually matters now, the ability to get some back (in both PvE and PvP) is really huge.

Can Cannibalize be used in combat? Because it actually might lead to Undead being very OP PvE healers for fights that have humanoid adds (and the corpses hang around). Put up PW:S and Renew, than chow down on a corpse to get 35% of your mana back. That's pretty huge, even if you can only do it once on that fight.


Cannibalize works exactly like a self bandage that requires standing on a humanoid/undead corpse. I find it useful as a quick free regen after killing someone in PvP, and because of the humor value of cannibalizing someone after you own him, not quite as great as the flag of ownership, but it works.

This isn't something you're going to use during combat in the way you describe. There's a self-sleep potion that puts you in self sleep and does a large mana+hp regen, nobody uses it.

You only use this during combat if your enemies are CC'd. For example with my warlock I have sometimes used cannibalize to regen after killing one enemy while the succubus is holding the other enemy. Works like having an extra bandage, it's better than the bandage in that it heals more.
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#28 Sep 18 2010 at 3:49 PM Rating: Good
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Cannibalize works exactly like a self bandage that requires standing on a humanoid/undead corpse. I find it useful as a quick free regen after killing someone in PvP, and because of the humor value of cannibalizing someone after you own him, not quite as great as the flag of ownership, but it works.

This isn't something you're going to use during combat in the way you describe. There's a self-sleep potion that puts you in self sleep and does a large mana+hp regen, nobody uses it.

You only use this during combat if your enemies are CC'd. For example with my warlock I have sometimes used cannibalize to regen after killing one enemy while the succubus is holding the other enemy. Works like having an extra bandage, it's better than the bandage in that it heals more.


That's a terrible example. That potion only regens 3600 health/mana and you are in a sleep that's a MAGIC effect, so you can't break it on command. That's a pitiful amount regained and a complete loss of the ability to move of take action. Plus, it means that another player can't dispell magic effects from you without risking taking your dream effect instead.

[EDIT]

And I'm right in thinking that they didn't add a Wrath version of the potion, right? Of course no one would use it for such a pitiful heal. People would avoid using it if it restored 12K.

Furthermore, you are making your argument in terms of Wrath, where mana is a non-issue. If you actually have to worry about your pool, than anything that can give you back a significant amount is huge.

Edited, Sep 18th 2010 5:51pm by idiggory
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#29 Sep 18 2010 at 3:58 PM Rating: Good
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Uh, that shared CD with Super Mana Potion, which was almost as much mana without the 12 second stun.
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#30 Sep 18 2010 at 4:45 PM Rating: Decent
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idiggory wrote:

That's a terrible example. That potion only regens 3600 health/mana and you are in a sleep that's a MAGIC effect, so you can't break it on command. That's a pitiful amount regained and a complete loss of the ability to move of take action. Plus, it means that another player can't dispell magic effects from you without risking taking your dream effect instead.

[EDIT]

And I'm right in thinking that they didn't add a Wrath version of the potion, right? Of course no one would use it for such a pitiful heal. People would avoid using it if it restored 12K.

Furthermore, you are making your argument in terms of Wrath, where mana is a non-issue. If you actually have to worry about your pool, than anything that can give you back a significant amount is huge.

Edited, Sep 18th 2010 5:51pm by idiggory


Yes there is a Wotlk version. The Wotlk Version is not a magic effect and can't be dispelled, won't break from damage and you can break the effect at any time. http://www.wowhead.com/item=40081

I think it's a perfectly valid example. Except perhaps I should have extended to say that they weren't used even when mana was a big deal.

In Vanilla people were downranking spells to save mana and innvervate was like the atomic bomb of raids (similar to Bloodlust now), I've only seen the potion used in very rare ocassions and never by healers.

Those potions only made sense for hunters because hunters had to have mana and they weren't given any mana regen, so they would run out of mana on long encounters. No encounter is that long anymore, and all DPS classes that use mana are given mana regen.

There was never an issue about not being able to break the effect on command, the issue with those was more that the effect would instantly break from any damage (same as bandage or cannibalize), so it was not usable on some of the long encounters where Hunters ran OOM.

Also, healing is not going to work the same way in Cata, the way mana conservation works in Cata is that if you use slow HPS heals you spend very little mana, if you use high HPS heals you use a lot of mana, so if you stop healing for 6 seconds you will lose a lot of mana using high HPS spells to recover.

Edit: But don't get me wrong. I use Cannibalize and I like it, it's just it doesn't work in the way that you suggest.

Edited, Sep 18th 2010 7:27pm by xorq
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#31 Sep 18 2010 at 5:27 PM Rating: Good
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Sounded to me, with mana being regenerated through spamming dps spells, that they were intending to construct things so there was significant non healing time during encounters.
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#32 Sep 18 2010 at 5:51 PM Rating: Decent
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Kavekk the Ludicrous wrote:
Sounded to me, with mana being regenerated through spamming dps spells, that they were intending to construct things so there was significant non healing time during encounters.


Looking at the list of spells and talents on healer classes what I'm really seeing is the high hps = high mana cost and slow hps = low mana cost.

Edit:

The offensive spells part is a reinforcement to high hps= high mana cost vs low hps = low mana cost.

Paladins get a haste effect from doing judgement, which effectively increases the HPS, so if you don't use judgement you don't trigger the haste effect and end up using more expensive heals and consuming more mana.

Disc Priests get some level of mana regen and +heal from using offensive spells. 15% mana back and 15% bonus healing each time they trigger the effect with 5 stacks.

Holy priests get 10% spell haste from doing 3 smites, much like paladins from doing judge.

On Druids I don't see any gain from doing offensive spells other than the cost of wrath being reduced by 100% and instant cast starfire.


Edited, Sep 18th 2010 8:17pm by xorq
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#33 Sep 18 2010 at 6:05 PM Rating: Good
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But you are still looking at it in the Wrath system, where you had to spam heal. Tanks aren't going to be gibbed in 2 attacks anymore, so it isn't like you have to be using every single GCD.

And the mana/health return on the Wrath sleep potion is a joke. That's why I would never use it. The loss of motility isn't made up for by the return.

Does it have the highest return potential per potion for health and mana? Yes. But the Runic Rejuv potion is only like 1.3k less of a return with no wait.

But what you are missing here is that cannibalize doesn't share a CD. You don't have to give up your Rejuv/Mana/Health pot to use it. Even if you only get 2 seconds of eating in, that's 7% of your max mana/health back, which is quite a few spells. And you get that mana back on top of whatever potion you decide to use that minute.
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#34 Sep 18 2010 at 6:26 PM Rating: Good
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You only get one potion per "in combat".
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#35 Sep 18 2010 at 6:35 PM Rating: Decent
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idiggory wrote:
But you are still looking at it in the Wrath system, where you had to spam heal. Tanks aren't going to be gibbed in 2 attacks anymore, so it isn't like you have to be using every single GCD.

And the mana/health return on the Wrath sleep potion is a joke. That's why I would never use it. The loss of motility isn't made up for by the return.

Does it have the highest return potential per potion for health and mana? Yes. But the Runic Rejuv potion is only like 1.3k less of a return with no wait.

But what you are missing here is that cannibalize doesn't share a CD. You don't have to give up your Rejuv/Mana/Health pot to use it. Even if you only get 2 seconds of eating in, that's 7% of your max mana/health back, which is quite a few spells. And you get that mana back on top of whatever potion you decide to use that minute.


Yes, you're also not looking at the Cata system completely.

The only healing class getting this racial would be priests.

Looking at priests talents, it's not that Cannibalize would be a bad source of mana regen, but priests would probably have a higher priority for using offensive spells to trigger powerups.

It's a good regen to use between pulls, it can be used in combat in very situational ways, like when you CC your enemies or something similar. But I think it's DPS who would be more likely to use this during combat.

You could try it, and it could work, I just doubt it would work "more than" sticking to the standard healing rotation.

Note: Sadly this ability doesn't work on teammate corpses.

Edited, Sep 18th 2010 8:36pm by xorq
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#36 Sep 18 2010 at 6:56 PM Rating: Good
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Whether or not you'll want to use it depends entirely on how badly you need the mana on that fight. Using a dps skill to power up is good, but going oom reduces your output to 0.

All I'm saying is that the skill has the potential to be incredibly OP at times, if things aren't designed properly. A fight that has waves of humanoid adds, for example, is likely going to be one that really stresses a healer's mana pool. If one of those exists, Undead priests are going to fare significantly better than other healers. If, however, the mana limit on every fight really just means "Well, you can't just spam Flash Heal. But other than that, you're good!" Than yeah, this racial won't change much.

It's still potentially very big for PvP though.

But I'd say you are just wrong in saying that the change is better for dps classes though. Blizz has stated very clearly that Mana is meant to be sustainable for dps, with the only possible exception being Arcane Mages (and for them it is still sustainable, they are just build around fluctuating mana pools and occasional evos). If you stop casting to cannibalize a corpse, than you screwed up badly.

With PvP, they are about even. It's an environment where mana won't be as sustainable as a PvE fight, and personal health will also matter. You could argue it's better for a Mage since they can't heal themselves, I suppose. But haven't Mages always been a class that is best with a healer? Especially since the only long-term CC they have is going to heal the enemy for way more than you'll get from Cannibalize.
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#37 Sep 19 2010 at 2:44 AM Rating: Decent
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If you're fighting alone against 2 guys and kill one you can CC the other while you cannibalize. Or it could be if you're the last man standing at a point in a BG and another single enemy comes while you're low on HP, you CC him and cannibalize to regen and then fight. As I said this works much like a free bandage with different requirements, and it scales with your hp pool.

It could be used in Arena but I haven't seen a single time where a situation happens inside Arena that favors using Cannibalize. You can't use it if you have a DoT on you, or if you're taking damage from any source. As healer you almost always have a pet attacking you or you're being watched closely and get hit immediately if you try to drink. And using this ability in arena would require a corpse of one of the enemy team. So I really don't see it being used in Arena matches. It doesn't matter for undead anyway, you make plenty of use of Will of the Forsaken in Arena.

So, uhm, yeah, if you're on the boat of switching your human chars to a different race, the undead racials are good. But if you're melee you'll probably want Escape Artist instead.

As for it being effective in a PvE encounter as you describe, I don't think that would be a bad thing. For one thing, priests of all races already get mana regen abilities, I say this in the sense that the racial wouldn't be giving priests something they don't already have, it would just be giving an extra option.

And then if you were going to pick a race for a PvE healer for a racial that would be useful to you in PvE you'd probably go with Goblin or Troll, since casting speed is probably going to be the biggest thing in mana saving. You may even go Gnome but I doubt it.

I think I would pick troll for that because it will let you cast your cheap heals 20% faster which is close to doing the expensive spells at the cost of the cheap ones.


Edited, Sep 19th 2010 5:10am by xorq
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#38 Sep 19 2010 at 10:23 AM Rating: Good
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xorq wrote:
The only healing class getting this racial would be priests.

Looking at priests talents, it's not that Cannibalize would be a bad source of mana regen, but priests would probably have a higher priority for using offensive spells to trigger powerups.

It's a good regen to use between pulls, it can be used in combat in very situational ways, like when you CC your enemies or something similar. But I think it's DPS who would be more likely to use this during combat.

You could try it, and it could work, I just doubt it would work "more than" sticking to the standard healing rotation.


Undead priest here. This change to cannibalize is fantastic for me, especially in PVP, where battles with healers on both sides always come down to mana. You don't have to be in LOS of the corpse you're chomping, just proximate, so you can duck behind a pillar and chow down. Since I don't plan to take the Archangel (smite for mana regen) talents, I'm liking this a lot.

I expect to get plenty of use from it in the BGs, whether healing or melting faces. I imagine mages will like it too, sheeping and cannibalizing after a kill. Can't testify to how useful it will be in PVE now that we won't have as many undead corpses around to cannibalize in instances, but I'm sure it will help out at times.




#39 Sep 19 2010 at 11:07 AM Rating: Decent
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It would take a pretty special set of circumstances for the new Cannibalize to be considered OP. It's unlikely it will lead to undead priests, locks, or mages being in higher demand than other races. As mentioned, even one tic here or there is nice, but the 10 second channel time all but ensures that you won't have an opportunity to reap the full effects of the spell any time you're in combat. Still, a nice tool to add to the box.

The changes to human racials seems extreme. When Cataclysm hits there will be little incentive to level a Human as any class.
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#40 Sep 19 2010 at 11:47 AM Rating: Good
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Humans are still a useful PvE race for classes that can use Swords/Maces, and the Spirit might end up being really nice for healers (if it remains). Plus, some people actually go for things like rep achievements, so the increase is HUGE.

But yeah, I wouldn't go for a Human in PvP unless my aesthetic desire to play one outweighed the loss of PvP racials.

Here's a question, what would people think of EMFH if it kept the 3 min CD and had a 50% chance to break CC effects (possibly lower--25%?), on a separate CD?
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#41 Sep 19 2010 at 1:53 PM Rating: Decent
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Making it some % less than 100% with an independent CD makes it only moderately useful for PvE but could make it very strong for PvP. However, I feel like arena matches might swing one way or the other based on your luck with EMFH and people would complain. It could give Humans a huge advantage because you wouldn't know when it was safe to time your switches/bursts. It seems like a dicey mechanic that they wouldn't want to mess with.

Also, given the changes to INT/spell power and gnomes being able to play priest, the class humans will be most suited to play will be Paladin (though it's unclear whether the spirit or intelligence will be more useful come Cata). Seems fitting I suppose.

Edited, Sep 19th 2010 4:19pm by CatPredator
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#42 Sep 19 2010 at 3:50 PM Rating: Decent
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CatPredator wrote:
It would take a pretty special set of circumstances for the new Cannibalize to be considered OP. It's unlikely it will lead to undead priests, locks, or mages being in higher demand than other races. As mentioned, even one tic here or there is nice, but the 10 second channel time all but ensures that you won't have an opportunity to reap the full effects of the spell any time you're in combat. Still, a nice tool to add to the box.

The changes to human racials seems extreme. When Cataclysm hits there will be little incentive to level a Human as any class.

I can easily see an undead mage or priest getting mana in a 2v2 match that turns into a 1v1, especially in Nagrand or BEA.

I use my Cannibalize/Stealth macro all the time in BGs/arena. I know that mages, et al don't have stealth, but there are a lot of uses for Cannibalize.
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#43 Sep 19 2010 at 4:17 PM Rating: Good
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It's still useful in PvE. A 3-minute cooldown that removes all kinds of things. **** yes.

It just means all you leet Arena players will have to, zomg, choose another race depending on preferences, instead of just rolling a Human Whatever because the racial is the FOTM (or year, whatever).

How dare Blizzard give you options! Smiley: rolleyes

I'm just messing around, I wouldn't like to be nerfed either, but let's face it, you can't really nerf a Tauren at this point.
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#44 Sep 19 2010 at 11:54 PM Rating: Decent
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Overlord Theophany wrote:
I can easily see an undead mage or priest getting mana in a 2v2 match that turns into a 1v1, especially in Nagrand or BEA.

I use my Cannibalize/Stealth macro all the time in BGs/arena. I know that mages, et al don't have stealth, but there are a lot of uses for Cannibalize.


When a M vs N turns into 1v1 in BG, arena or at the entrance of your favorite raid instance you would be able to CC the other guy and use Cannibalize as if it was a super bandage that gives you mana. Mage and Warlock because they can CC and Rogues because they can stealth.

But Priest I'm not so sure, the only priest CC that they could use like that is fear, and their fear has like a 20 or 30 second cooldown, can't remember exactly, and has a very short range, in the sense that you can't fear a ranged enemy shooting things at you from 20-30yd.

It's not that it would be bad or useless to fear and canni, just that you'd have to be very lucky to have an opportunity to fear the enemy at a moment when he can't trinket/break the fear while being very close to the corpse of an enemy and you don't have any kind of bleed/poison/curse DoTs on you. Maybe when a M vs N turns into 2v2 so that it ends up like 2v2 arena matches where typically healers drink at times, but with all the corpses for cannibalize laid on the ground. Even then I think shadowmeld+drink beats it.


Edited, Sep 20th 2010 2:22am by xorq
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#45 Sep 20 2010 at 12:23 AM Rating: Good
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Does PW:S interruption immunity apply to Cannibalize as well?
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#46 Sep 20 2010 at 12:27 AM Rating: Decent
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idiggory wrote:
Does PW:S interruption immunity apply to Cannibalize as well?


It doesn't seem to apply to bandages. And Cannibalize works like bandage, so I'm GUESSING it doesn't. My priest is Night Elf. Hopefully someone with an undead priest will give a better answer.

In the case of bandage it seems you need an Immune, because if you have an absorb it breaks the bandage. But if your favorite class is inside his favorite bubble (lololol) then he can bandage because it does immune.

Edited, Sep 20th 2010 2:30am by xorq
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#47 Sep 20 2010 at 12:28 AM Rating: Decent
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xorq wrote:
Overlord Theophany wrote:
I can easily see an undead mage or priest getting mana in a 2v2 match that turns into a 1v1, especially in Nagrand or BEA.

I use my Cannibalize/Stealth macro all the time in BGs/arena. I know that mages, et al don't have stealth, but there are a lot of uses for Cannibalize.


When a M vs N turns into 1v1 in BG, arena or at the entrance of your favorite raid instance you would be able to CC the other guy and use Cannibalize as if it was a super bandage that gives you mana. Mage and Warlock because they can CC and Rogues because they can stealth.

But Priest I'm not so sure, the only priest CC that they could use like that is fear, and their fear has like a 20 or 30 second cooldown, can't remember exactly, and has a very short range, in the sense that you can't fear a ranged enemy shooting things at you from 20-30yd.

It's not that it would be bad or useless to fear and canni, just that you'd have to be very lucky to have an opportunity to fear the enemy at a moment when he can't trinket/break the fear while being very close to the corpse of an enemy and you don't have any kind of non-removable DoTs on you.

Yeah, priest would be tough because the other team would keep them in combat so they can't rez.

If they got the distance though, it wouldn't be a problem.
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#48 Sep 20 2010 at 10:27 AM Rating: Decent
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Priests could actually end up pretty **** powerful. Mana is an issue, but disc priests can spec for so much additional crap they're gaining ON TOP of what they have now. Lowering duration on Weakened Soul with Heal, grabbing the holy talent for +10% haste after three Smites, Evangelism with Archangel (and don't be mistaken, Archangel is pretty **** powerful - 15% of your mana pool is just about the 5 Smites it costs to be able to use it) and a lower CD Shadowfiend from the shadow tree.

Holy gains a CC, stronger heals (and a pretty decent Renew), poison dispel on self... It might become an option alongside disc.

Wait, this is not the FOTM topic? Oh snap.

Edited, Sep 20th 2010 6:28pm by Mozared
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#49 Sep 20 2010 at 10:54 AM Rating: Good
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Mozared wrote:
Priests could actually end up pretty **** powerful.


Balancing all those gains is the loss of Inner Will. -30% duration to all stuns, fears and silences was an incredible PVP talent that all priests had access to, it being on the first tier of discipline. Whenever I jumped into a BG without swapping out of my PVE spec, the difference was just agonizing.

I’d trade Evangelism, Trinity, Holy World: Chastise, faster Shadowfiend and Soul Mending for Inner Will back, without any hesitation or regret.
#50 Sep 20 2010 at 11:50 AM Rating: Good
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Balancing all those gains is the loss of Inner Will. -30% duration to all stuns, fears and silences was an incredible PVP talent that all priests had access to, it being on the first tier of discipline. Whenever I jumped into a BG without swapping out of my PVE spec, the difference was just agonizing.

I’d trade Evangelism, Trinity, Holy World: Chastise, faster Shadowfiend and Soul Mending for Inner Will back, without any hesitation or regret.


EVERY class lost their cc reduction talents. It's not just Priests.
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#51 Sep 20 2010 at 12:07 PM Rating: Good
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Are we talking rated Battlegrounds?

Did some poking around in Warhammer Online and I've come to the conclusion that making resurrection spells a 3-second cast and usable in combat would do great things to Battlegrounds. Terrible, yes... but great.

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