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PVP weapon and BlizzFollow

#27 Sep 15 2010 at 6:05 PM Rating: Decent
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RAWDEAL wrote:
Overlord Theophany wrote:
Also, calling VoA PvE is kind of a stretch. I can do VoA in PvP gear. Smiley: tongue
I do understand in Wrathful gears you will perform well, but most groups asked for GS and insane dps when the new boss came up. Beating a team in WSG of 10 arena players deserved at least the same rewards as a boss in PVE... Blizz, throw me a freakin bone here!

I agree, it would be nice.
#28 Sep 15 2010 at 6:47 PM Rating: Good
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Time to go get steamrolled a couple of hundred times in AV by the looks of it.

Better than being steamrolled a couple of hundred times in the Arena, I guess.
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#29 Sep 15 2010 at 8:27 PM Rating: Decent
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Actually VoA didn't quite completely exclude PvP chars from it. It was only when the wind elementals boss came out that you had to meet a specific mark of DPS in order to stop the raid from wiping.

But then it turned out it really just needed one burst of DPS, not sustained dps, so in reality what it excluded was the specs that don't do good burst dps. And at the time most PvP dps was focused on burst damage.

Toravon also has a way of favoring PvP dpsers in a sense. PvP players in general tend to be more adept at doing DPS while moving and target switching duties. The mainstream population adopted the method of "we all cluster here so that spheres do the most damage possible and ranged DPS will need to do 8k dps to burst down the spheres so fast that they don't hurt us". But if you had a team composed of PvP types they would usually do pretty good kiting while killing the spheres, they'd take a lot less damage and end up killing Tora only slightly a few seconds slower.
#30 Sep 16 2010 at 3:50 AM Rating: Excellent
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We have a rogue in the guild who is really into PvP but doesn't really raid.

I have him DPS sometimes in raids. I only have to explain kill priority and mechanics like Rotface oozes. Is kind of nice.

I think this is related to the discuss.
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#31 Sep 16 2010 at 5:38 AM Rating: Excellent
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Horsemouth wrote:
We have a rogue in the guild who is really into PvP but doesn't really raid.

I have him DPS sometimes in raids. I only have to explain kill priority and mechanics like Rotface oozes. Is kind of nice.

I think this is related to the discuss.


Smiley: smile I rarely do any PVE anymore (these days I mostly just ride around after Loremaster or collecting pets, actually), but I'm much better at it than I used to be when I did PVE regularly but never PVP. Situational awareness, mobility, all while watching bars constantly, these are things a lot of new healers have trouble with. And nothing boosts those skills like PVP.

But the increase in skill doesn't matter, because nobody wants a healer in PVP gear. Certainly PUGs don't. Thank goodness I transferred back to my old server and guild so I can get someone to play with me out of pity once in a while. Smiley: lol
#32 Sep 16 2010 at 1:51 PM Rating: Decent
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Horsemouth wrote:
We have a rogue in the guild who is really into PvP but doesn't really raid.

I have him DPS sometimes in raids. I only have to explain kill priority and mechanics like Rotface oozes. Is kind of nice.

I think this is related to the discuss.

Definitely true, which is why my old guild always wanted me to DPS whenever I could, even in mostly PvP gear.

It helped that my weapons were better than most of the other rogues due to PvP.

But your movement and situational awareness is much higher as a PvPer than just a PvE player, making anyone that PvPs—in general—better than a player who just PvEs.
#33 Sep 16 2010 at 1:56 PM Rating: Decent
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Horsemouth wrote:
We have a rogue in the guild who is really into PvP but doesn't really raid.

I have him DPS sometimes in raids. I only have to explain kill priority and mechanics like Rotface oozes. Is kind of nice.

I think this is related to the discuss.


I've put my warlock in some raids in PvP spec and PvP gear*. The DPS is lower, but compared to most of the people on the same raids, if you ignore the DPS and only check the damage contribution I'm way up there with people who have 20% or 30% more DPS than I do. I believe this is because I don't lose DPS while moving the same way they do.

Then when you switch to damage taken I usually took the least damage, and damage matters less for me than it does for others because I only have slightly less HP than the tank and I got some damage reduction effects to boot.

What was hardest for me to adapt when switching from PvP to PvE was adopting the mentality that I had to stop using any ability that doesn't do damage and do nothing other than just spamming damage. Otherwise I kept doing interrupts, dispells and all that. It's like removing almost every button and leaving up only the 5-6 that are necessary to spam damage.

*(Note: I switch a few slots to change between PvP hit cap and raid boss hit cap).

Edited, Sep 16th 2010 4:01pm by xorq
#34 Sep 17 2010 at 7:37 PM Rating: Default
I hate to say it (as I'm bouncing off the walls trying to find a decent weapon set for my pvp toon) but it's actually pretty reasonable locking the pvp weapons the way they do.

PVP gear is called welfare epics for a reason - it takes almost no effort to get it. Even the current 251 arena sets are relatively easy to get - do a 2m arena 10 times a week (40m total time if you hit it during peak hours) and you get what, around 240ish honor if you loose all 10 fights? So do that for two weeks and then win a BG once a day for the bonus 25 points and you've got enough arena and regular honor to buy any 251 armor piece you want. Fill in the rest of your slots with the 264 non-rated pieces on the PVP vendors in the capital cities and you've got yourself a dangerous PVP toon in no time.

Now imagine if it was that easy to score a 251 weapon as well?
#35 Sep 17 2010 at 11:36 PM Rating: Good
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rusttle wrote:
I hate to say it (as I'm bouncing off the walls trying to find a decent weapon set for my pvp toon) but it's actually pretty reasonable locking the pvp weapons the way they do.

PVP gear is called welfare epics for a reason - it takes almost no effort to get it. Even the current 251 arena sets are relatively easy to get - do a 2m arena 10 times a week (40m total time if you hit it during peak hours) and you get what, around 240ish honor if you loose all 10 fights? So do that for two weeks and then win a BG once a day for the bonus 25 points and you've got enough arena and regular honor to buy any 251 armor piece you want. Fill in the rest of your slots with the 264 non-rated pieces on the PVP vendors in the capital cities and you've got yourself a dangerous PVP toon in no time.

Now imagine if it was that easy to score a 251 weapon as well?


Getting a 251 weapon isn't just easy, it is trivial, if you raid.

And raiding Marrowgar in 10 normal which drops a 251 weapon is easy enough that it can be done with an AFK offtank in the encounter.

I did put 1 char of mine in PvE for this reason. I find PvE gear to be far easier to obtain than PvP gear with the exception of RNG gripes.

Comparing...

Getting into ilvl 232...

PvP side you have to go into battlegrounds where everyone outgears you and just destroys you from just staring at you, even if you have 8 times their skill.

PvE side you go into dungeons, where many of the people you team with will outgear you so much you pretty much get carried by them even if you have 8 times their skill. The supereasy to farm emblems of Triumph also give you access to 245 gear.

Getting into 251...

PvP side you can get some from arena, and some from daily bgs, if you're constantly losing it will take what? 2 weeks per piece? for a 5 piece set. -still no weapon-

PvE side you're looking at Frost Emblems you get from 5-man heroics so brutally easy it's scandalous. In addition you get more from the weekly raid which is also very very trivial. The frost emblems give you access to the 5-piece set of PvE gear in addition to ilvl 264 trinket, chest, glove, belt, cloak. -still no weapon-

PvE side if you're getting just a little little bit braver, not by much, you can do ICC10 normal. Any mismatched PuG will full clear the first hall. Bosses are supereasy to kill and drop 251 gear including weapons. If you only farm it for a bit you're into gear to start farming the 25-man version which isn't any harder than the 10-man version.

Getting into 264...

If you're doing both 25-man and 10-man version of only the first hall + heroic daily + raid weekly you'll be getting frost emblems at a rate so fast that you get the 251 pve gear much much faster than by doing arena points with a losing "points team". And the 25-man version will drop ilvl 264 gear and weapons. Even from the very first boss.

In addition, if you're progressing into PvE you'll find that there's crafted ilvl 264 gear to really give yourself quite a boost up there and there isn't any crafted ilvl 264 resil gear.

The ilvl 264 gear you can get from honor and from not winning is cloak, bracer and trinket slots. The trinket being the mandatory PvP trinket for removing movement impairing effects.

Finally, when you're looking at how gear performs you have to look at the content it is intended for. When you're engaging into your entriest entry level of PvP your looking at average opponents in average gear ilvl 245 who will totally destroy you, you don't get content that is friendly to you having less gear than that. 245 is entry level for BG. 251 is entry level for Arena.

When engaging into your entriest entry level of PvE you're seeing 5-man heroics that you can very comfortably do with average gear ilvl below 200 but you involuntarily get teammates in ICC gear which is like getting level 90 teammates for level 80 dungeons. For ICC-10 normal first hall pugs 245 is outgearing the place, and 251 is outgearing the 25-man version.

And they can't be Welfare Epics because they aren't Epics at all, they are entry level gear.


Edited, Sep 18th 2010 2:03am by xorq
#36 Sep 18 2010 at 12:10 AM Rating: Decent
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rusttle wrote:
I hate to say it (as I'm bouncing off the walls trying to find a decent weapon set for my pvp toon) but it's actually pretty reasonable locking the pvp weapons the way they do.

PVP gear is called welfare epics for a reason - it takes almost no effort to get it. Even the current 251 arena sets are relatively easy to get - do a 2m arena 10 times a week (40m total time if you hit it during peak hours) and you get what, around 240ish honor if you loose all 10 fights? So do that for two weeks and then win a BG once a day for the bonus 25 points and you've got enough arena and regular honor to buy any 251 armor piece you want. Fill in the rest of your slots with the 264 non-rated pieces on the PVP vendors in the capital cities and you've got yourself a dangerous PVP toon in no time.

Now imagine if it was that easy to score a 251 weapon as well?

And as any melee class, you're still getting destroyed, because you can't do a decent amount of damage without a decent weapon, no matter how high your AP is.

Explains why you're bad at PvP.

Also, skill is always more important than gear. I've beat Duelists and Gladiators in duels because I'm just plain better than they are, even though my gear is out of date.
#37 Sep 18 2010 at 3:59 AM Rating: Good
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xorq wrote:
rusttle wrote:
I hate to say it (as I'm bouncing off the walls trying to find a decent weapon set for my pvp toon) but it's actually pretty reasonable locking the pvp weapons the way they do.

PVP gear is called welfare epics for a reason - it takes almost no effort to get it. Even the current 251 arena sets are relatively easy to get - do a 2m arena 10 times a week (40m total time if you hit it during peak hours) and you get what, around 240ish honor if you loose all 10 fights? So do that for two weeks and then win a BG once a day for the bonus 25 points and you've got enough arena and regular honor to buy any 251 armor piece you want. Fill in the rest of your slots with the 264 non-rated pieces on the PVP vendors in the capital cities and you've got yourself a dangerous PVP toon in no time.

Now imagine if it was that easy to score a 251 weapon as well?
Summary: Its easy to get a 251 or 264 weapon from PvE


PvP weapons take effort in Wrath.

PvE weapons take luck as ICC10/25 1st 4 are insanely easy and they drop for almost all specs/classes there.

Edited, Sep 17th 2010 11:59pm by Horsemouth
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#38 Sep 18 2010 at 11:02 AM Rating: Excellent
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In my opinion ratings should never be a barrier for entry. So with the weapon example, if you can't get one because you don't have a rating, which makes it very hard to get rating, that's a problem.

Edited, Sep 18th 2010 12:03pm by Xsarus
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#39 Sep 18 2010 at 12:52 PM Rating: Excellent
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Sir Xsarus wrote:
In my opinion ratings should never be a barrier for entry. So with the weapon example, if you can't get one because you don't have a rating, which makes it very hard to get rating, that's a problem.

Edited, Sep 18th 2010 12:03pm by Xsarus

That was Blizzard's rationale for removing the rating. The "rich get richer" mentality isn't what they were going for.

Because while I may be able to go out and get 1800 in a week or two, not everyone can, which makes it tough to get into PvP.
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