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#102 Jan 29 2014 at 3:46 PM Rating: Good
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
And I can't wait for the gaming industry to get less misogynistic overall.


Look, I'm all for equal rights and such, but to call an entire industry misogynous is borderline misandrous.

Just saying, this entire debate is getting ridiculous.

I'm sorry that some women apparently feel treated like sh*t in the gaming world, but I'm pretty sure it wasn't intentional. And I'm pretty sure dissecting every single scenario won't improve the quality of the games. If someone can pick apart Mass Effect and call it misogynous then there's no way to fix this, and I dare say some people need to not read so much into things.

I can pick apart stuff and present it as hateful, too. Doesn't mean it is, though.

Edited, Jan 29th 2014 10:51pm by Mazra
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#103 Jan 29 2014 at 3:59 PM Rating: Good
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For the record: I love the ladies. I'm not saying we should ignore the issues that come with a male dominated industry, but we have to be careful it doesn't get ridiculous.

When a minority gets special rights because of their gender, equality also sort of goes out the window. When a female minority can veto a decision by playing the equality card, it sort of gets muddy real fast.

Edited, Jan 29th 2014 10:59pm by Mazra
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#104 Jan 29 2014 at 4:19 PM Rating: Decent
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If only someone could have predicted this would happen.

Ah well, maybe next time.
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#105 Jan 29 2014 at 4:31 PM Rating: Good
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Kavekk wrote:
If only someone could have predicted this would happen.

Ah well, maybe next time.

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#106 Jan 29 2014 at 4:45 PM Rating: Good
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Look, I'm all for equal rights and such, but to call an entire industry misogynous is borderline misandrous.

Just saying, this entire debate is getting ridiculous.

I'm sorry that some women apparently feel treated like sh*t in the gaming world, but I'm pretty sure it wasn't intentional. And I'm pretty sure dissecting every single scenario won't improve the quality of the games. If someone can pick apart Mass Effect and call it misogynous then there's no way to fix this, and I dare say some people need to not read so much into things.

I can pick apart stuff and present it as hateful, too. Doesn't mean it is, though.



Yeah, I'm not touching this one with a 10-foot pole.

Frankly, the gaming industry IS incredibly misogynist. As in, it's notoriously hard for women to get jobs in it, and it's generally an extremely hostile work environment for women.

This shouldn't be news.

The joke of crying misandry every time male dominated sectors get called out for their **** has long-since gotten old.
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#107 Jan 29 2014 at 4:57 PM Rating: Good
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For people who care:

David Gaider's GDC talk on sexism and sexuality in the game design industry.
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#108 Jan 29 2014 at 5:58 PM Rating: Good
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
The joke of crying misandry every time male dominated sectors get called out for their sh*t has long-since gotten old.


Generalizations swing both ways is all I'm saying.

And I think it's interesting that misandry generalizing has gotten old while misogyny generalizing is still a hot potato...
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#109 Jan 29 2014 at 6:31 PM Rating: Good
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Look at all this nuance.

Smiley: laugh

You kids enjoy yourselves now.
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#110 Jan 29 2014 at 6:47 PM Rating: Good
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Mazra wrote:
idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
The joke of crying misandry every time male dominated sectors get called out for their sh*t has long-since gotten old.


Generalizations swing both ways is all I'm saying.

And I think it's interesting that misandry generalizing has gotten old while misogyny generalizing is still a hot potato...


Well when one is an expression of institutionalized patriarchy generally dismissing the voice of the disenfranchised, then yeah.

Misogyny itself has various levels. Most people only bother looking at the highest level, where you have creepy guys rubbing into women on the subway. Like racism, lower levels of misogyny, for instance subconscious misogyny that keeps men from hiring women based on subconscious assumptions about their capability, is a serious issue. It's the same kind of misogyny that makes guys think it's okay to make awkward *** jokes when they are the dominant population. It's not okay, you're just abusing the male dominance of the situation to be an *******, because you know the chances of being called on it are low.

I'm perfectly happy to own that most of these instances are probably cases of it happening subconsciously, but that argument stops flying when it's a systemic issue with all aspects of the work environment. At some point, you have a responsibility to check your behavior.
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#111 Jan 29 2014 at 7:04 PM Rating: Decent
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And Shepard isn't some perfect example of how to not sexualize a female character (though it's REALLY easy for men to miss that). When you compare the male and female scripts side-by-side, there are some moments of degrading sexualization for fem!Shep that m!Shep never has anything close to an equivalent for (m!Sheps only moments of non-romance sexualization are all heavily empowering according to power dynamics). And pretty solidly across gender lines, the reactions to these situations are positive for men, and negative for women.

Like fem!Shep punching some grimey @#%^s who was harassing her. Most men see that as empowering. Most women see that Shepard was in a situation where she was being sexualized in the first place, because they've actually lived that situation. And when we're talking about sci-fi/fantasy futures where women can be soldiers, no problem, and no one doubts their efficacy, it's really jarring to have moments that zoom straight back to 21st century patriarchy.

For instance, imagine if you had gone the whole game with a dark-skinned Shepard, and no one ever once treated you differently because of your race, and out of nowhere there's just one racist prick. When approaching from a place of privilege, it sounds empowering to punch out that @#%^. But really, all that did (from an experiential perspective), is serve to remind the player that they're still the "other," even in this universe.


So basically, you're saying that women were unhappy that Mass Effect didn't 100% make everything all perfect and that there were a few small mistakes in it?

*blinks*

Okay, no offense to any ladies offended by a scene or snippet of dialogue here&there, but... they should step back and go "Hey, this is a huge step up from the norm, I shouldn't be whining about some small thing they didn't do quite right".

Hey, sure, Mass Effect isn't 100% perfect as far as the gender thing goes, but ****, it is sure better than most other games out there. They should be happy with the progress we've made thusfar, instead of whining about the few things such a game got wrong.

We need to go further and make things more equal, sure. But don't brush off the good while whining about the bad!

Quote:
For the record: I love the ladies. I'm not saying we should ignore the issues that come with a male dominated industry, but we have to be careful it doesn't get ridiculous.

When a minority gets special rights because of their gender, equality also sort of goes out the window. When a female minority can veto a decision by playing the equality card, it sort of gets muddy real fast.


^^
This.

We already see it with sexism in day-to-day conversations; it is NOT okay for a man in any way to crack jokes about women driving, it is NOT OK for a man to be looking at her *** or her chest but yet it somehow IS okay for a woman to demand men lift all kinds of crap for her, and it IS okay for a woman to crack jokes about men not cooking very well. It somehow IS okay for a woman to sit around watching soap operas, but yet they act like it ISN'T OK for guys to watch the Super Bowl (not that I'd want to, but to each their own).

Instead of sexism against women, now we got sexism against men and I freaking hate that crap. They want equality? Hey, sure, I'm down for that! But that means they gotta take the bad with the good. Just like how Affirmative Action (somehow, discrimination against whites was better than discrimination against minorities) was entirely ***-backwards and why most employers do "Equal Opportunity" these days.
#112 Jan 29 2014 at 7:29 PM Rating: Excellent
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Well when one is an expression of institutionalized patriarchy generally dismissing the voice of the disenfranchised, then yeah.
...
At some point, you have a responsibility to check your behavior.


I dood it.

Digg, where's your horse in this race?

Fantasy armor is fantasy armor, across the board it is horrible. I spent 30 years and more doing various martial arts, including kendo. I spent roughly the same time doing armored and light combat in SCA and Renfaire environments. I've studied historical fighting manuals. I hold multiple belt rankings, across a range of systems and used to teach martial arts. It is my professional opinion that most armor -- fantasy or fictional -- is begging to be killed to such a degree that even with "oh, well, it's magic don't you know" my brain hurts.

As far as game design, I grew up with it. My father did game design with AH and SPI back in the day. I did some work with TSR. If you play a game with a bard, I was one of the play testers for the original.

Yes, an argument can be constructed about armor and appearances, but I'd feel a lot more comfortable hearing it from Teacake. When a person who is not a member of a group starts throwing around talk about disenfranchisement, I have to ask what their real stake is. How did they get anointed spokesperson and what do they get from it? Is bikini armor annoying? Sure it is, but don't get me started on the impracticality of virtually all fantasy/fictional armor. Aside from Randy Asplund, most artists barely know enough about weapons or armor to hold the part that isn't sharp and it is reflected in their work; however, most of the people that their work targets are no more knowledgeable. This is a particular problem with things that don't involve modern elements such as guns and ballistic vests.

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Generalizations swing both ways is all I'm saying.


I'm going with Maz on this one.
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#113 Jan 29 2014 at 8:23 PM Rating: Good
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Digg, where's your horse in this race?


The fact that you think I need one is frankly what's disturbing. As in, I can't be interested in promoting fair and equal treatment of people without personally being a beneficiary.

Saying that my argument doesn't matter is like if I said an Ally's argument didn't matter, because they're straight. Sure, my own words might have more power, because they're reinforced by personal experience, but if the Ally is making a rational, informed argument, whether or not they're *** shouldn't matter.

And if I'm NOT making a rational argument, then you should deconstruct it. Dismissing my opinion because I'm male is just stupid.

Also, really? Someone rated down the post with the DG talk linked? Rating down my posts because you disagree with what I'm saying is one thing, but the post linking to a talk by a Lead Designer for one of the few game studios that actually has representation for women on the design team, given at one of the biggest game design conferences in the country, to a room full of his peers working in game design, about the state of sexuality and sexualization in game design is beneath people's time.

I judge whoever rated that down so hard.
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#114 Jan 29 2014 at 9:09 PM Rating: Good
idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
Also, really? Someone rated down the post with the DG talk linked? Rating down my posts because you disagree with what I'm saying is one thing, but the post linking to a talk by a Lead Designer for one of the few game studios that actually has representation for women on the design team, given at one of the biggest game design conferences in the country, to a room full of his peers working in game design, about the state of sexuality and sexualization in game design is beneath people's time.

I judge whoever rated that down so hard.


Someone got butthurt and went through the entire thread downvoting everything from page 2 on. Even comments that have nothing to do with the current discussion.

Edit: I fixed it.

Edited, Jan 29th 2014 10:17pm by IDrownFish
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#115 Jan 29 2014 at 9:36 PM Rating: Excellent
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IDrownFish of the Seven Seas wrote:
idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
Also, really? Someone rated down the post with the DG talk linked? Rating down my posts because you disagree with what I'm saying is one thing, but the post linking to a talk by a Lead Designer for one of the few game studios that actually has representation for women on the design team, given at one of the biggest game design conferences in the country, to a room full of his peers working in game design, about the state of sexuality and sexualization in game design is beneath people's time.

I judge whoever rated that down so hard.


Someone got butthurt and went through the entire thread downvoting everything from page 2 on. Even comments that have nothing to do with the current discussion.

Edit: I fixed it.

Edited, Jan 29th 2014 10:17pm by IDrownFish


Yeah I saw that. Wonder who had their cheerios ****** on... Smiley: confused
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#116 Jan 29 2014 at 11:15 PM Rating: Decent
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Criminy wrote:
IDrownFish of the Seven Seas wrote:
idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
Also, really? Someone rated down the post with the DG talk linked? Rating down my posts because you disagree with what I'm saying is one thing, but the post linking to a talk by a Lead Designer for one of the few game studios that actually has representation for women on the design team, given at one of the biggest game design conferences in the country, to a room full of his peers working in game design, about the state of sexuality and sexualization in game design is beneath people's time.

I judge whoever rated that down so hard.


Someone got butthurt and went through the entire thread downvoting everything from page 2 on. Even comments that have nothing to do with the current discussion.

Edit: I fixed it.

Edited, Jan 29th 2014 10:17pm by IDrownFish


Yeah I saw that. Wonder who had their cheerios ****** on... Smiley: confused


Maybe Kavekk because he got rated to default on that one post of his?
#117 Jan 29 2014 at 11:38 PM Rating: Good
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And if I'm NOT making a rational argument, then you should deconstruct it. Dismissing my opinion because I'm male is just stupid


Asking what your stake is isn't dismissing you, it is asking for a clarification of your position. As for my reasoning, look at the bottom line: "I'm going with Maz on this one." Specifically, his points in posts 102 and 103.

Quote:
I can't be interested in promoting fair and equal treatment of people without personally being a beneficiary.


You can, but with my background I am both wary and weary of crusaders. Some are passionate about an ideal, some are passionate about being in the spotlight and get carried away. I'm glad that I teach foreign students these days. I used to spend days calming down Chinese students who had studied abroad and cornered by a group of well meaning people who were often too young to have any personal recollection of the actual event, but they were determined to show pictures of "Tank Guy" in order to tell the student that the government of China is evil, totalitarian and ... Communist. I used to work in a place where a group of Pentecostals lived like royalty in gated communities, with SUVs and rooms full of antiques. They would adopt 10-12 kids with hair lips and get donations to have the kids fixed, but they made most of their money by telling people back in the US how they were persecuted and in danger in China because they were Christian. They would go online and solicit donations for their good works, including a starting fee of 30 USD/month to sponsor a child. They did do good work, but they made it pay very well for themselves.

Quote:
Sure, my own words might have more power, because they're reinforced by personal experience, but if the Ally is making a rational, informed argument, whether or not they're *** shouldn't matter.


I live in a high context culture. That's something like being trapped in an episode of Criminal Minds, where everything must be analyzed for meaning beyond the word themselves. It can get annoying, but it is habit now. The first things that I see in this sentence are that you have labels in your cause, and you treat them as titles. You could have simply said "someone" but to you they aren't, you identify them by their role "an Ally" but they're depersonalized because you don't use pronouns or common language.
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#118 Jan 30 2014 at 7:57 AM Rating: Good
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Lyrailis wrote:
Criminy wrote:
IDrownFish of the Seven Seas wrote:
idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
Also, really? Someone rated down the post with the DG talk linked? Rating down my posts because you disagree with what I'm saying is one thing, but the post linking to a talk by a Lead Designer for one of the few game studios that actually has representation for women on the design team, given at one of the biggest game design conferences in the country, to a room full of his peers working in game design, about the state of sexuality and sexualization in game design is beneath people's time.

I judge whoever rated that down so hard.


Someone got butthurt and went through the entire thread downvoting everything from page 2 on. Even comments that have nothing to do with the current discussion.

Edit: I fixed it.

Edited, Jan 29th 2014 10:17pm by IDrownFish


Yeah I saw that. Wonder who had their cheerios ****** on... Smiley: confused


Maybe Kavekk because he got rated to default on that one post of his?


Thanks, Fishy. Because honestly, even if you think I'm a mouth-breathing load of crap, that talk is REALLY worth listening to (if you have the time). Gaider approaches topics from both the business perspective and the end-user experience, as well as the general social equality angle. So it makes the entire presentation super accessible.

And I doubt it was Kavekk. He lives to troll, it doesn't seem like his style.

Quote:

I live in a high context culture. That's something like being trapped in an episode of Criminal Minds, where everything must be analyzed for meaning beyond the word themselves. It can get annoying, but it is habit now. The first things that I see in this sentence are that you have labels in your cause, and you treat them as titles. You could have simply said "someone" but to you they aren't, you identify them by their role "an Ally" but they're depersonalized because you don't use pronouns or common language.


Labels are generally used in social justice discussions to help set common points of understanding, to move forward from there. "Ally," for instance (while most common to the ***** rights arena), is essentially anyone who is not part of the discriminated group, but has vested interest (either through generally passive support or activism) in advancing the position of that group towards equality.

Because the issues are dynamic, the definitions of labels becomes important, because you need to approach the issue from some kind of common ground, so you don't just end up talking circles around each other.

Misogyny is a good example for feminist literature. I tried to break it down earlier, but I probably didn't do an awesome job, but in feminist literature misogyny is the broad label for cultural systems of oppression by male dominance. This can be as clear and repulsive as rape, it can refer to patriarchal systems with built-in controls (generally systematic, and many aren't consciously supported), and it can refer to every-day gender policing (frowning down upon women who are "too masculine," men who are too "feminine," etc.)

There's really very little room for argument that the game design industry doesn't fit that definition pretty fully. Women occupy less than 12% of all game design positions in the US, and the testimonial evidence of constant gender policing is immense. Here's the #1reasonwhy twitter campaign from 2012, here's an article from Kotaku two days ago about a game designer who had a games reporter sexually harass her on Facebook (the reporter, Josh Mattingly, said he sent those to her drunkenly, and has stepped down from his position to "work on himself").

There's plenty there.

I don't think women are generally getting felt up in their team meetings, or are being asked to exchange *** for promotions (at least, not more than any other industry). I DO think that a system that's incredibly male dominated, particularly in the positions of power, has led to a situation in which under-representation of the female gender has made it that much harder for women to get ahead.

I don't think these guys are intentionally dismissing female candidates; I think they're used to working in a boy's club and they're evaluating candidates from a boy's club perspective, leading them to (unknowingly) rank female applicants lower for the same level of skill. Because you don't just get a job because of your qualifications, you also get it by how well the hiring agent thinks you'll meld with the rest of the group.

Fortunately, I also think that this is a problem that primarily fixes itself as women become more represented in the field, because I don't think most of these guys are ********. I think they're not really aware of the systems that are keeping women out, and I think the office culture naturally changes to be more open to female coworkers as a larger base of female employees exist.

But you still need to get to that point. And the best way to do it is call out the **** where you see it. There's been a big push to do that for the gaming industry in the past few years, and I REALLY hope that continues.

Both for the sake of equality, and for the sake of the industry itself.
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#119 Jan 30 2014 at 8:06 AM Rating: Excellent
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
Like fem!Shep punching some grimey @#%^s who was harassing her. Most men see that as empowering. Most women see that Shepard was in a situation where she was being sexualized in the first place, because they've actually lived that situation.


Sure, but in real life, we don't usually get to punch the guy. I personally would not be remotely offended by this, and would probably enjoy it. If I could stab him, so much the better. (Because that's why it's a game and I can do that without being stabby IRL.)


idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
And when we're talking about sci-fi/fantasy futures where women can be soldiers, no problem, and no one doubts their efficacy, it's really jarring to have moments that zoom straight back to 21st century patriarchy.


I would not find it jarring to encounter a pervy bumhole man in any universe or context. I just expect a certain percentage of any human/humanoid population to be bumholes. You can argue that this particular brand of bumholiness would manifest itself less often in a culture that was less patriarchal, absolutely, but eliminated altogether? I haz doubts.

Edit:
Lyrailis wrote:
It somehow IS okay for a woman to sit around watching soap operas


Which women? Who are these women who get to sit around watching soap operas instead of, yanno, working? How can I get into that club? (Except can I play WoW or something instead of the soap thing? It's mainly the sitting around that I'm interested in.)


Edit 2: BTW I was just commenting on that particular example, not disagreeing with Dig that most games developed by men have sexist elements (intentionally or not). This is not surprising given that men simply can't see through the eyes of women, and although some of the more glaring things really grate on me (panty armor), for the most part I don't read anything sinister in it, unless you consider making a profit to be sinister. The discussion of demographics is an interesting one but the fact remains that what they're selling is working, and they're going to continue to sell it for as long as it works, and they'll change it as soon as it stops working.


Edited, Jan 30th 2014 9:24am by teacake
#120 Jan 30 2014 at 8:40 AM Rating: Good
teacake, I love your posts. Please don't ever stop.
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#121 Jan 30 2014 at 8:44 AM Rating: Good
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teacake wrote:
idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
I
Like fem!Shep punching some grimey @#%^s who was harassing her. Most men see that as empowering. Most women see that Shepard was in a situation where she was being sexualized in the first place, because they've actually lived that situation.


Sure, but in real life, we don't usually get to punch the guy. I personally would not be remotely offended by this, and would probably enjoy it. If I could stab him, so much the better. (Because that's why it's a game and I can do that without being stabby IRL.)


idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
I
And when we're talking about sci-fi/fantasy futures where women can be soldiers, no problem, and no one doubts their efficacy, it's really jarring to have moments that zoom straight back to 21st century patriarchy.


I would not find it jarring to encounter a pervy bumhole man in any universe or context. I just expect a certain percentage of any human/humanoid population to be bumholes. You can argue that this particular brand of bumholiness would manifest itself less often in a culture that was less patriarchal, absolutely, but eliminated altogether? I haz doubts.


Yeah, I definitely know female gamers who have that feeling, too. It's a pretty evenly split camp for my friends, there. About half hated that it was included, and the other half enjoyed punching Harkin. If I was the writer, and I was getting 50/50 feedback there, I would have probably changed the script.

Though a very solid majority HATED that they had to choose between "ignore it" and "punch him." The ones who wanted to take the Paragon route really hated the implication that the "moral" thing to do was to just let Harkin treat them like trash. End result of this particularly conversation was that, if it was going to be included, it obviously should have been a choice between "Call Harkin on his ****" and "punch him."

If we're talking about general situations, though, I think it comes down to the particular plot structure of that world. I know how jarring it is for me to have really random moments of extreme homophobia in games that aren't even that ***-friendly, by design. But when it's a game that IS, that would probably be enough to ruin my entire experience with the title.

Here's one example (fabricated) that's coming to mind. In DA2, your mother makes a comment on the romance option you're pursuing (where in earlier acts she talks about getting you a wife/husband). It's not negative at all, she doesn't mention that she won't have grandkids, etc. Had she instead said something judgemental, or had refocused the perspective of that relationship as if I was hurting my family, etc., it would have thoroughly destroyed my experience.

On the other hand, if it was a game where I faced adversity as a *** character, and had the satisfaction of swiftly swinging a lead pipe into the nads of someone who makes comments, I'd feel really differently about that particular interaction.

I think the context is important, but I'm 100% happy that there are women who played that and found it empowering, because that's literally the best case scenario.

I guess ultimately the conversation begins to fall into the realm of escapism vs. idealism. Some people want some games where they can actually leave that particular brand of **** they deal with all the time behind them. Other people want a game where they confront it and kick its ***.

I think the field is healthiest by having both games. Right now, it's really lacking in the escapist part for women (which is ironic, because DA gives a solid escapist experience for ***/bi/******* individuals, and we're a smaller population by far).
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#122 Jan 30 2014 at 9:02 AM Rating: Excellent
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
Though a very solid majority HATED that they had to choose between "ignore it" and "punch him." The ones who wanted to take the Paragon route really hated the implication that the "moral" thing to do was to just let Harkin treat them like trash.


Oooh yeah, that would bug for sure. I have never actually seen the game in question, was just going by your example.

Quote:
I guess ultimately the conversation begins to fall into the realm of escapism vs. idealism. Some people want some games where they can actually leave that particular brand of sh*t they deal with all the time behind them. Other people want a game where they confront it and kick its ***.


I think this is a good observation. I enjoy all sorts of entertainment - games, movies, books - that allow me to kill the things that either scare or anger me in real life. I love horror for largely this reason. So if what I find entertaining falls into that camp, I'm bound to notice less when just getting away from it altogether is not an option.

Quote:
I think the field is healthiest by having both games. Right now, it's really lacking in the escapist part for women (which is ironic, because DA gives a solid escapist experience for ***/bi/******* individuals, and we're a smaller population by far).


By your definition of escapism, this is true. But I get plenty of escapism out of fantasy games regardless of being faced with real-life gender issues on occasion. The odd pervy NPC is not even on my radar when I'm flying around on a horse and shooting fire out of my fingertips and making friends with adorable rotten squirrels.

And awww, thanks Fishy.
#123 Jan 30 2014 at 9:02 AM Rating: Decent
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I think it's definitely worth noting, though, that the experience of being a woman (feminist or no) and being a male feminist are very different, because I ultimately still have a male perspective that's been trained to identify moments of sexual inequality.

But that doesn't get paired to the experience of sexual inequality, which is why perspectives of female gamers like Teacake's DO matter more than mine. Which is also why I'm desperate to get more female designers into the game design industry - I only see positive results there.

Because, feminist or no, male designers just can't create a game built with an understanding of female experience.
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#124 Jan 30 2014 at 9:08 AM Rating: Good
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By your definition of escapism, this is true. But I get plenty of escapism out of fantasy games regardless of being faced with real-life gender issues on occasion. The odd pervy NPC is not even on my radar when I'm flying around on a horse and shooting fire out of my fingertips and making friends with adorable rotten squirrels.


I have an incredible desire to get you magical powers now...
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#125 Jan 30 2014 at 9:10 AM Rating: Excellent
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IKR?

I'd totally use them for good. Like, I'd for sure never summon big blue demons to kill those who displease me.
#126 Jan 30 2014 at 9:19 AM Rating: Good
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teacake wrote:
IKR?

I'd totally use them for good. Like, I'd for sure never summon big blue demons to kill those who displease me.


I would be unto mankind a benevolent god, gently guiding them into order and morality with hands of fiery justice and words of soul-enslaving beauty.
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#127 Jan 30 2014 at 10:18 AM Rating: Excellent
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Why?

Why must people link a 50 minute long video that there simply aren't enough hours in the day to watch?! USE YOUR KEYBOARD! Smiley: motz

teacake wrote:
BTW I was just commenting on that particular example, not disagreeing with Dig that most games developed by men have sexist elements (intentionally or not). This is not surprising given that men simply can't see through the eyes of women, and although some of the more glaring things really grate on me (panty armor), for the most part I don't read anything sinister in it, unless you consider making a profit to be sinister. The discussion of demographics is an interesting one but the fact remains that what they're selling is working, and they're going to continue to sell it for as long as it works, and they'll change it as soon as it stops working.
What teacake said.

idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
teacake wrote:
IKR?

I'd totally use them for good. Like, I'd for sure never summon big blue demons to kill those who displease me.


I would be unto mankind a benevolent god, gently guiding them into order and morality with hands of fiery justice and words of soul-enslaving beauty.
I'd be fully corrupted within a week or so.
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#128 Jan 30 2014 at 10:32 AM Rating: Good
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I'm not judging anyone who doesn't want to watch it - it IS long.

But it wouldn't be possible for me to explain anything that well or that concisely without actually wasting far more of everyone's time. Or with such authority, period.

It's a discussion of systemic issues with the entire industry. It can't really be done well in 3 minutes without too many gross over-generalizations.

Maybe I'll take a trip through his blog, later, and see if I can find some choice posts that might do some justice to the issue, though.
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#129 Jan 30 2014 at 10:39 AM Rating: Excellent
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It's all good, I was just giving you a hard time. Smiley: lol

I can't really watch anything at work anyway, even shorter things because of the noise. The videos I link I've watched elsewhere and know what they are. Now if you ever want to remove me from a conversation here, you know how. Smiley: wink
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#130 Jan 30 2014 at 10:56 AM Rating: Excellent
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Labels are generally used in social justice discussions to help set common points of understanding, to move forward from there. "Ally," for instance (while most common to the ***** rights arena), is essentially anyone who is not part of the discriminated group, but has vested interest (either through generally passive support or activism) in advancing the position of that group towards equality.


Retired lawyer here. We wrote that play. The saying is that if you let me define the terms, I'll win the case every time. You're trying to manipulate the language to conform to a set of rules that you have chosen to apply to a thread about the human female in WoW. You're points, while not entirely invalid, have wandered far, far afield from both the thread and the forum.

From a modeling perspective, I can think of several things I'd complain about first. Want to play an African or African American looking character? Take that white guy over there and put him in black face. Hispanic, Middle Eastern, Asian, even Mediterranean? Hey, we let ya pick different skin tones and hair styles, use your imagination!

From the perspective of portrayals? How about we look at the controversy over things like the Red Skins, now look over there at the Tauren. Now, let's listen to those Goblins. You wanted to play an African American? Would you accept Jamaican? You can be a Troll. The list goes on.

On the other hand, when we go too far down that road, we'll find Maine **** cats removed from the game, leading me back to agreement with Mazra.
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#131 Jan 30 2014 at 11:23 AM Rating: Excellent
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Rhodekylle wrote:
From a modeling perspective, I can think of several things I'd complain about first. Want to play an African or African American looking character? Take that white guy over there and put him in black face. Hispanic, Middle Eastern, Asian, even Mediterranean? Hey, we let ya pick different skin tones and hair styles, use your imagination!
World of Whitecraft? Smiley: clown

So hard to find a good character creation screen in general, so few games not only supply the means of tweaking your character, but also a variety of body builds, and facial features to add any real diversity or uniqueness to your character. Skin tones are usually done okay, since a color slider isn't that hard, but that's where the effort stops it seems. Not that you need 100 sliders working in different ways, making you spend 4 hours in the loading screen, but some effort would be appreciated.
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#132 Jan 30 2014 at 11:47 AM Rating: Good
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Yeah, cultural appropriation is also a problem. As is racial under- and mis-representation.

Cultural appropriation, for those who don't know, is the term for when the cultural traits, mannerisms, objects, etc. of a culture are used without due deference and without equal exchange by another culture, usually in a case of severe power differences. (Spoiler expands this definition, in case people are interested, but I have relatively little interest in discussing appropriation. For one, because I'm not equipped to really teach it, and two, because it's super hard to talk about without a pre-existing, basic understanding)

Some obviously racist examples are things like Native American baseball mascots, with their headdresses and such. Less obvious examples are things like using dream catchers as decorations, when those are meaningful spiritual objects to another group. Or maybe the Swastika, appropriated and abused.

It's a difficult concept, because things get into the shades of grey territory REALLY quickly. For instance, dream catchers as a simple decoration is appropriation, demeaning the significance of that symbol to its originating culture. But using Chopsticks to eat sushi isn't, really.

And then it's further complicated by the audience vs. artist kind of problem. Someone might get a dream catcher tattoo because of a spiritual event or belief that isn't from their culture, but that they still identify with and are commemorating with ink. But to the people SEEING that tattoo, that context is likely lost. So is it appropriation? Cue debates).

And then you have issues with the question of what is appropriation and what is healthy cultural evolution, etc. Oh, and reverse appropriation, when the exchange between groups demeans the less-privileged group through imperialism (for instance, the fact that Asian business leaders were forced to adopt Western garb to become players in the global economy, before they'd be taken seriously).

An example of why it's murky? Native American Casinos - are they a system of appropriation by Western culture? I've read stellar arguments on both sides, and I have no idea where I fall on the issue.

It's a really complicated issue, and it's a headache for people who have studied it extensively. Most people can pretty easily spot the severe cases, with a little bit of education (redskin, black face, geisha costumes, etc). But it gets murky, fast.






THAT SAID, I have literally no interest in the game of "Whose plight is worse?" All that does is encourage opposition between minority groups, by demanding that they compete for attention and change, rather than encourage unity among oppressed groups.

And in essentially EVER situation I have ever seen the argument used, it's being used to take attention away from the issue at hand. There will ALWAYS be a group that has it worse in ways. Life is too dynamic for there not to be.

The terminology I'm using isn't being defined as I go along. It's a basic definition used by multiple fields of academic study. Unless you're taking issue with the idea of establishing definitions in the first place (which I'm assuming you aren't), it shouldn't be an issue.

Those definitions aren't being switched up mid-argument. This isn't a pathetic game of word play. I spent four years studying philosophy, I have no interest in that nonsense. We can call it "A" for all you want.

This is using the same definition from start to finish. Playing fast and loose with the definitions is a serious issue (in legal terms, often things like intent, or interpretation). Setting them is not.

I defined misogyny. Whether or not you agree the definition doesn't match the word doesn't particularly matter. What I'm interested in is the flesh of the argument and whether or not the conclusion follows logically from the parts. If you don't think it does, tell me where my argument goes wrong.
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#133 Jan 30 2014 at 11:48 AM Rating: Good
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someproteinguy wrote:
Rhodekylle wrote:
From a modeling perspective, I can think of several things I'd complain about first. Want to play an African or African American looking character? Take that white guy over there and put him in black face. Hispanic, Middle Eastern, Asian, even Mediterranean? Hey, we let ya pick different skin tones and hair styles, use your imagination!
World of Whitecraft? Smiley: clown

So hard to find a good character creation screen in general, so few games not only supply the means of tweaking your character, but also a variety of body builds, and facial features to add any real diversity or uniqueness to your character. Skin tones are usually done okay, since a color slider isn't that hard, but that's where the effort stops it seems. Not that you need 100 sliders working in different ways, making you spend 4 hours in the loading screen, but some effort would be appreciated.


This was another thing I thought TOR did a solid job with. There was relatively even representation of facial features from a variety of the major racial groups, and they weren't limited to humans. This even included hair styles and facial hair.
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#134 Jan 30 2014 at 12:03 PM Rating: Excellent
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
someproteinguy wrote:
Rhodekylle wrote:
From a modeling perspective, I can think of several things I'd complain about first. Want to play an African or African American looking character? Take that white guy over there and put him in black face. Hispanic, Middle Eastern, Asian, even Mediterranean? Hey, we let ya pick different skin tones and hair styles, use your imagination!
World of Whitecraft? Smiley: clown

So hard to find a good character creation screen in general, so few games not only supply the means of tweaking your character, but also a variety of body builds, and facial features to add any real diversity or uniqueness to your character. Skin tones are usually done okay, since a color slider isn't that hard, but that's where the effort stops it seems. Not that you need 100 sliders working in different ways, making you spend 4 hours in the loading screen, but some effort would be appreciated.


This was another thing I thought TOR did a solid job with. There was relatively even representation of facial features from a variety of the major racial groups, and they weren't limited to humans. This even included hair styles and facial hair.
They did do a good job of that. I'd have liked it better if there were more options (that's a constant theme with me...), but they're one of the better ones out there. A couple of the larger models were a plus (hah, unintended pun...) too, and seem to have been surprisingly popular, at least from what I can tell. Certainly adds more realism to the whole experience.
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#135 Jan 30 2014 at 12:53 PM Rating: Good
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teacake wrote:
idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
Like fem!Shep punching some grimey @#%^s who was harassing her. Most men see that as empowering. Most women see that Shepard was in a situation where she was being sexualized in the first place, because they've actually lived that situation.


Sure, but in real life, we don't usually get to punch the guy. I personally would not be remotely offended by this, and would probably enjoy it. If I could stab him, so much the better.


Can I just ask one question?

If I'm slightly turned on by teacake's comment above, does that make me sexist, or am I in the clear here? Just checking if I should feel guilty, because I'm totally turned on right now.

Not meant in a sexually harassment kind of way, by the... uh, way. Just, you know... call me.

/smoke

Edit: The question was sincere, in case anyone thinks I'm just joking. I'm like 50/50 on the joke and the serious business. Curious if my jokes would be considered sexually offensive.

Edited, Jan 30th 2014 7:54pm by Mazra
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#136 Jan 30 2014 at 12:55 PM Rating: Excellent
This has the potential to get very tumblr, very fast. Like it hasn't already.
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#137 Jan 30 2014 at 12:57 PM Rating: Good
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I spent several years studying philosophy myself, and although that was for the most part thirty years ago I am known to teach related subjects from time to time.

Quote:
Those definitions aren't being switched up mid-argument. This isn't a pathetic game of word play.


Pathetic is a word that you've interjected, nor have I said you're switching things up mid argument. What I have said is that you are bringing an artificial vocabulary to a discussion in plain English and I'm not going along with the game. For example, there have been attempts to expand the definition of misogyny to something more in line with your usage, but neither of us are Australian. On its face, by its roots and by common usage over the course of a couple of centuries, misogyny is a hatred of women based on their gender. A workplace may be hostile to women, but unless that hostility rises to hatred and is based on gender, it is not misogyny. For example, there are not a lot of Asian women who are NFL linemen. That alone does not establish that the NFL is misogynistic or even biased against Asians. To use an extreme label to invoke a particular emotion is more or less the situation summed up as Godwin's Law.

Quote:
And in essentially EVER situation I have ever seen the argument used, it's being used to take attention away from the issue at hand. There will ALWAYS be a group that has it worse in ways. Life is too dynamic for there not to be.


Nope. I asked you what horse you had in the race. I'm going to keep going after that point because you keep trying to be an armchair game designer and you constantly try to drag the discussion onto your turf and away from the topic. This is a plain English discussion of models in a particular game. It is not, and this is not the right forum for, an academic debate of social equality but you've chosen to try to derail the discussion in that direction.

Come on, +1 is one thing, but you're now doing multiple back to back posts. How do you expect to be taken seriously?
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#138 Jan 30 2014 at 1:11 PM Rating: Excellent
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Rhodekylle wrote:
For example, there are not a lot of Asian women who are NFL linemen. That alone does not establish that the NFL is misogynistic or even biased against Asians.
Cross-thread shenanigans!?

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#139 Jan 30 2014 at 1:25 PM Rating: Excellent
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Mazra wrote:
teacake wrote:
idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
Like fem!Shep punching some grimey @#%^s who was harassing her. Most men see that as empowering. Most women see that Shepard was in a situation where she was being sexualized in the first place, because they've actually lived that situation.


Sure, but in real life, we don't usually get to punch the guy. I personally would not be remotely offended by this, and would probably enjoy it. If I could stab him, so much the better.


Can I just ask one question?

If I'm slightly turned on by teacake's comment above, does that make me sexist, or am I in the clear here? Just checking if I should feel guilty, because I'm totally turned on right now.


Well I'm not qualified to diagnose you, but I'll say this much: I think if you're turned on by talk of stabbing, sexism isn't your highest priority concern.

Speaking for myself, I've never been at all offended by you, no matter how much you focus on bewbs and beer and hot lady avatars. Because, druid.
#140 Jan 30 2014 at 1:36 PM Rating: Excellent
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Bored Druid Thread: keeping the bar low since 2009.
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#141 Jan 30 2014 at 1:38 PM Rating: Good
someproteinguy wrote:
Bored Druid Thread: keeping the bar low since 2009.


If you set the bar as low as it will go, you will never be disappointed!
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#142 Jan 30 2014 at 1:43 PM Rating: Good
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Mazra wrote:
teacake wrote:
idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
Like fem!Shep punching some grimey @#%^s who was harassing her. Most men see that as empowering. Most women see that Shepard was in a situation where she was being sexualized in the first place, because they've actually lived that situation.


Sure, but in real life, we don't usually get to punch the guy. I personally would not be remotely offended by this, and would probably enjoy it. If I could stab him, so much the better.


Can I just ask one question?

If I'm slightly turned on by teacake's comment above, does that make me sexist, or am I in the clear here? Just checking if I should feel guilty, because I'm totally turned on right now.

Not meant in a sexually harassment kind of way, by the... uh, way. Just, you know... call me.

/smoke

Edit: The question was sincere, in case anyone thinks I'm just joking. I'm like 50/50 on the joke and the serious business. Curious if my jokes would be considered sexually offensive.

Edited, Jan 30th 2014 7:54pm by Mazra


Telling someone you find them attractive isn't sexual harassment when the information is paid as a compliment and in an environment where it's appropriate. Telling them you think they're **** when you're their boss? Harassment. In the middle of a meeting? Harassment. Abusing some other relationship to create an opening to interject that information? Harassment. Saying it graphically, when you don't even know if they're receptive (or, god forbid, you know they don't)? Harassment.

Otherwise, you're generally in the clear.

Rhodekylle wrote:
I spent several years studying philosophy myself, and although that was for the most part thirty years ago I am known to teach related subjects from time to time...


The very nature of an argument involves defining concepts. I defined misogyny very specifically so that anyone would know what I was talking about when I used the term. It's literally impossible for me to get more transparent than that.

But, please, tell me how my definition of misogyny isn't common usage. I clarified the definition to be as clear and exact as I can, because it makes literally no sense not to. Why would I just hope for the best that everyone was on the same page? That's absurd.

Wiki article's first two sentences:
Quote:
Misogyny /mɪˈsɒdʒɪni/ is the hatred or dislike of women or girls. Misogyny can be manifested in numerous ways, including sexual discrimination, denigration of women, violence against women, and sexual objectification of women.


And, again, at the end of the day, the word doesn't matter. Call the concept whatever the **** you like - that's what I'm talking about. But if you have such an adverse reaction to the word misogyny here, I'd probably recommend you do the same thing you're asking me - evaluate your stake. Why is it so important to you that we not call these situations misogynistic?

My "stake" in the argument is that I'm a gamer, and I'm a feminist. At this point, the gaming industry is quickly becoming its own distinct subject in gender studies and sociology programs, because it's one of the best examples of a misogynist industry that we have. **** and politics still eclipse it in terms of studies, but PLENTY of research is going into gaming, particularly in the wake of the social media campaigns of the last few years.

I have no further stake than the belief in equality and desire to see an industry I've actively invested part of my identity into to not be one of the most hostile spaces for women to occupy in our culture.

If you're asking what my stake is as a feminist, not in this particular instance, then it's part the fact the belief that women are people who deserve to be treated as people, and part a belief that patriarchal definitions of gender are damaging to both sexes (which includes my own gender).

My stake in bringing this information here, specifically, is that this is a board I use regularly, with people I regularly interact with. And I have a strong interest in expelling ignorance here that I wouldn't have in other gaming-specific environments (for instance, I don't touch Kotaku comments with a ten foot pole).

Quote:
This has the potential to get very tumblr, very fast. Like it hasn't already.


C'mon now, this is nothing like tumblr brand social justice. The SJ community on tumblr is primarily a fandom, and they're violent and aggressive in exactly the same ways other fandoms are. And there, the aggression typically comes from fringe areas of SJ theory (radical feminism being one I've already noted).

I've gotten plenty of angry social justice bloggers messaging me. Don't particularly care; I'm more interested in theory grounded in human experience, and not theory born out of a SJ wind tunnel. All I'm talking about here is really, really basic feminist theory. The rabbit hole goes so much deeper, but this is foundational theory for the entire discipline of gender studies.

In other news, the +1 posts were generally because it just gets too confusing to do all this within one post. Trying to figure out if I quoted the right things in the right spots/responded to everyone is making my head hurt.
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#143 Jan 30 2014 at 1:55 PM Rating: Excellent
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Misogyny /mɪˈsɒdʒɪni/ is the hatred or dislike of women or girls. Misogyny can be manifested in numerous ways, including sexual discrimination, denigration of women, violence against women, and sexual objectification of women.


See, the problem I have with this term, is that it is "the hatred or dislike of women or girls".

I have my doubts that these game designers really dislike or hate women, not even subconsciously. Some of these "misogynistic" things they add in games? Probably mostly accidental; tradition, stereotypes they've seen in other games, things they assume are OK because they've not been taught otherwise, etc.

A guy can be perfectly fine with girls and write a piece of dialogue in game that could be potentially demeaning to girls and not even realize he did it because he just simply didn't know any better.

Does that make him guilty of misogyny? Of course not. Was the piece of dialogue unfortunate? Of course.

The only way this is going to get fixed is to better educate people of what they're doing and why it is wrong, but you don't (or can't, really) educate people with hate and rage.

The female gamers need to speak up, but they need to do so respectfully and not get whipped up into a torch-and-pitchfork mob spewing hate and rage all over said game's forums. That isn't going to fix a **** thing, in fact it might make the problem worse. Maybe a designer doesn't hate women or girls, but after a huge steaming pile of rage is thrown his way, he very well might after that.

Edited, Jan 30th 2014 2:58pm by Lyrailis
#144 Jan 30 2014 at 2:01 PM Rating: Good
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That's fine. Like I said, I don't really care what the word is, specifically. If people care so much that it not be misogyny, it doesn't matter.

That's why I defined specifically what I was talking about. Regardless of whether or not it annoys Rhode, that's logical reasoning 101. You make what you're talking about as clear and concise as you can, so you can leave things like "Well, does this word mean THIS or does it mean THAT or maybe BOTH..." behind. That does nothing but add confusion.

So if you really hate using the term misogyny there, don't. But that doesn't have any particular bearing one way or the other on my argument, because I set a definition. If you don't like the word going to that definition, give it a new one and just replace every usage of the word misogyny with whatever that is.

Doesn't matter what you choose, because what matters is the concept I defined, not what that concept is called.
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#145 Jan 30 2014 at 2:29 PM Rating: Good
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
Telling someone you find them attractive isn't sexual harassment when the information is paid as a compliment and in an environment where it's appropriate. Telling them you think they're **** when you're their boss? Harassment. In the middle of a meeting? Harassment. Abusing some other relationship to create an opening to interject that information? Harassment. Saying it graphically, when you don't even know if they're receptive (or, god forbid, you know they don't)? Harassment.


The last two seem awfully open to interpretation, though.

I mean, as a man, how do I know when the recipient will interpret it as a sexual provocation and not, as intended, a harmless compliment?

Edit: This is why I dislike homemade definitions, because if we can make up the definitions to words or situations as we go, there's nothing we can agree on. If someone tells me "mentioning *** outside the bed is offensive to women", that's something I can work with. Sort of. This whole "well, it might be offensive, but it might also not be; it depends on the mood of the recipient" thing is just impossible to work with.

Edited, Jan 30th 2014 9:36pm by Mazra
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#146 Jan 30 2014 at 2:36 PM Rating: Good
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Mazra wrote:
idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
Telling someone you find them attractive isn't sexual harassment when the information is paid as a compliment and in an environment where it's appropriate. Telling them you think they're **** when you're their boss? Harassment. In the middle of a meeting? Harassment. Abusing some other relationship to create an opening to interject that information? Harassment. Saying it graphically, when you don't even know if they're receptive (or, god forbid, you know they don't)? Harassment.


The last two seem awfully open to interpretation, though.

I mean, as a man, how do I know when the recipient will interpret it as a sexual provocation and not, as intended, a harmless compliment?

Edited, Jan 30th 2014 9:34pm by Mazra


See, I'm in agreement with this.

I think they should stop calling everything they don't like "Harassment".

Okay, I hate being treated as a workhorse just because I happen to have male genitalia between my legs. Can I start slapping the "Harassment" label on every girl who asks me to lift 5lb items because they're too lazy to? I hate that crap just as much as girls hate being hit on, or complimented on their appearance. I'm not a **** horse. I can understand, I don't know, a 40, 50, 60lb object, but when girls are asking me to lift 5lb crap, then I'm like "lift the **** thing yourself."

But no, its OK for women to treat us like we're mindless beasts of burden and try to use society rules to force us to do all of their manual labor (and guilt trip us should we resist), but God Forbid we ever compliment one of them, or look at them, or anything. They want all of the good (expecting us to do all of their work for them), and none of the bad (getting hit on, etc) of being a female.

Edited, Jan 30th 2014 3:40pm by Lyrailis
#147 Jan 30 2014 at 2:38 PM Rating: Excellent
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Lyrailis wrote:
The female gamers need to speak up, but they need to do so respectfully and not get whipped up into a torch-and-pitchfork mob spewing hate and rage all over said game's forums. That isn't going to fix a **** thing, in fact it might make the problem worse. Maybe a designer doesn't hate women or girls, but after a huge steaming pile of rage is thrown his way, he very well might after that.
I think this is just a problem that's inevitable, no matter how it's presented.

People in general don't react well when accused of misunderstanding an issue, or being ignorant in this manner. The young adult male population (15-30ish?) is pretty much the worst at this, and that's the group I'd argue is a big portion of this problem in the first place. Trying to communicate your frustrations to them would be nothing short of infuriating in it's own right. It's pretty much a lose-lose situation even bringing up the issue.

Edit: As an aside, speaking as someone who did software development with a bunch of 20-something males for a couple of years, it's not an experience I'm dying to repeat. Good lord, that environment was toxic, way too much testosterone. Smiley: lol

Edited, Jan 30th 2014 12:58pm by someproteinguy
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#148 Jan 30 2014 at 2:58 PM Rating: Good
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Mazra wrote:
idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
Telling someone you find them attractive isn't sexual harassment when the information is paid as a compliment and in an environment where it's appropriate. Telling them you think they're **** when you're their boss? Harassment. In the middle of a meeting? Harassment. Abusing some other relationship to create an opening to interject that information? Harassment. Saying it graphically, when you don't even know if they're receptive (or, god forbid, you know they don't)? Harassment.


The last two seem awfully open to interpretation, though.

I mean, as a man, how do I know when the recipient will interpret it as a sexual provocation and not, as intended, a harmless compliment?

Edit: This is why I dislike homemade definitions, because if we can make up the definitions to words or situations as we go, there's nothing we can agree on. If someone tells me "mentioning *** outside the bed is offensive to women", that's something I can work with. Sort of. This whole "well, it might be offensive, but it might also not be; it depends on the mood of the recipient" thing is just impossible to work with.

Edited, Jan 30th 2014 9:36pm by Mazra


There are occasionally grey moments, which is why we have things like courts that handle sexual harassment claims.

Protip: I don't know a single woman who thinks asking consent isn't ****. It's awkward and embarrassing, because most guys want to come off so suave. That's mostly because it's a male ideal.

If you're going from "I THINK she likes me" to sending **** pics, it's harassment. Insert Anthony Weiner joke here.

Plus, the line between flirting and harassment is broad enough you shouldn't be accidentally wandering into one from the other (specifically in the last two places, which is what your referenced). I mean, it's pretty much the difference between "Hey Diane, I love your acting bits!" and "Hey Diane, reenact the Janet Jackson wardrobe malfunction!"

If you think it might be harassment, according to your male sensibilities, then there's a VERY good chance it is harassment, according to female ones.

The power part should NOT be considered grey. If you're her boss or superior, don't flirt with her. It's fully possible she's receptive to it and you two would have no problems. Don't care, don't flirt with her. This isn't a shade of grey area, this is the rare case there MIGHT be an exception. And because you're the one with power in the relationship, the only appropriate response is to wait until she told you (clearly) that she was interested. That's it, that's the ONLY acceptable response. If you don't know, don't flirt.

By all means, if she gets a haircut, tell her you think it looks good. DON'T tell her that she looks ****.

Really, shades of grey situations are BY FAR the exception.

To be clear, I'm saying this as a guy who has to watch you hormonal beasts make the same mistakes over and over again. This is really, really simple. This isn't feminist!Alex talking, this is *** guy!Alex talking.

I have a male perspective. What I don't have is a perspective of a guy pursuing women. I have the perspective of being the one that has to defend my entire *** when one of you jackasses makes a stupidly obvious bad decision.

OH LOOK, MY PHONE IS VIBRATING, BECAUSE MY FRIEND'S HUSBAND DID SOMETHING OBVIOUSLY STUPID AND DOESN'T UNDERSTAND WHAT HE DID WRONG.

I only have so much patience, straight men. STOP DOING THIS TO ME.

And I'm telling you, if you step back and stop thinking with your ****, the chances of you ending up in an actual shades of grey situation is SUPER UNLIKELY. And if you're thinking with your ****, you really can't blame "unclear definitions."

As for definitions... That's why you don't make them up as you go. You set a definition, and you use it, and that is its own beast. You don't backtrack on that definition, that's not how it works. If you alter the definition part way through, then that definition is only valid from the point of change backwards.

Which means that you are now required to make the groundwork arguments all over again. You don't get to just ride the tide if you're playing fast and loose with your definitions (what gbaji does).

But if the situation changes, if there's some kind of cultural shift, and some part of the definition seems like it no longer applies, and we want to omit it, we can do that. But then you still need to go back and build the entire argument again; you don't get to just pick up where you left off. That's conflating words that don't mean the same thing, and it's bad reasoning.

Did this post make sense? I wrote this out of order...
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#149 Jan 30 2014 at 3:06 PM Rating: Excellent
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
I only have so much patience, straight men. STOP DOING THIS TO ME.
Smiley: lolSmiley: laughSmiley: lol

I almost spit out my coffee.

idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
Did this post make sense?
Remember back when you mentioned it was seemingly your role in life to prove every *** male stereotype true?

Nailed it. Smiley: wink
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#150 Jan 30 2014 at 3:18 PM Rating: Excellent
I just felt this had to be pointed out.

idiggory wrote:
Stop generalizing women.


idiggory wrote:
Gonna generalize straight men now.
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#151 Jan 30 2014 at 3:33 PM Rating: Good
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This is where I put on the biologist cap and point out that our very survival as a species depends on our ability to generalize incoming stimuli.
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