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#52 Jan 27 2014 at 5:40 PM Rating: Good
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At first I thought you were being sarcastic. But upon closer inspection of your words I could not help but conclude your apology to be sincere.
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#53 Jan 27 2014 at 5:44 PM Rating: Good
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Mazra wrote:
Criminy wrote:
I think the issue lie with what fantasy it is. Female characters tend to fall into the sexual fantasy while the males tend to fall in the power fantasy.


From a straight, male perspective, yes, but what about from a straight, female perspective? Or a *** male/female perspective? Would they not have different perspectives?


I cannot say from their perspective. I can only give mine as a straight male. It would be nice to get their perspective on the subject.

Mazra wrote:

Um, what?

Female Pandaren are considerably cuter and more attractive than female Worgen, Forsaken and Tauren.* And male Pandaren are probably more power trip inducing than male Gnomes...

*In my opinion, of course.

Edit: I give up; I can't find a **** picture of a female Worgen.

Edited, Jan 28th 2014 12:32am by Mazra


I agree, the female pandaren is more attractive than worgen, forsaken and tauren. The internet would disagree though (well up to the tauren) if you look at fan art.

The only reason I say the male gnomes have a greater power fantasy is due to the defined pecs. I suppose you are correct though considering gnomes tend to be the joke race.
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#54 Jan 27 2014 at 5:55 PM Rating: Good
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Criminy wrote:
I agree, the female pandaren is more attractive than worgen, forsaken and tauren. The internet would disagree though (well up to the tauren) if you look at fan art.


1. The female Pandaren model has not been around as long as the Worgen and Forsaken models.
2. Forsaken and Worgen (and Tauren) models get additional points due to an increased interest in Rule #34.

Criminy wrote:
The only reason I say the male gnomes have a greater power fantasy is due to the defined pecs.


They may have defined muscles, but they're still, like, three feet tall. Smiley: lol

Edited, Jan 28th 2014 12:58am by Mazra
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#55 Jan 27 2014 at 6:25 PM Rating: Good
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Mazra wrote:
Criminy wrote:
I agree, the female pandaren is more attractive than worgen, forsaken and tauren. The internet would disagree though (well up to the tauren) if you look at fan art.


1. The female Pandaren model has not been around as long as the Worgen and Forsaken models.
2. Forsaken and Worgen (and Tauren) models get additional points due to an increased interest in Rule #34.

Criminy wrote:
The only reason I say the male gnomes have a greater power fantasy is due to the defined pecs.


They may have defined muscles, but they're still, like, three feet tall. Smiley: lol

Edited, Jan 28th 2014 12:58am by Mazra


Can't say I've heard of a lot of Forsaken r34 (nor would I want to!), but Worgen? .... oh yes. A lot of it.

Tauren? There's some out there.

Pandaren are fairly new, but I wouldn't be surprised if some people were hot over Taoshi or something.

Edited, Jan 27th 2014 7:25pm by Lyrailis
#56 Jan 27 2014 at 6:29 PM Rating: Excellent
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Mazra wrote:


2. Forsaken and Worgen (and Tauren) models get additional points due to an increased interest in Rule #34.


That is true. Smiley: laugh
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#57 Jan 27 2014 at 6:44 PM Rating: Good
There's **** out there of every race in WoW. Yes, gnomes, tauren, pandaren, etc. It all exists, because they all cater to niches that were unfilled before the race was introduced.

Anyways Digg, females in WoW have some very modest sets these days. Check out the current tier DK gear, current tier Rogue gear, etc. Seems like boobplate is mostly a thing of the past.

I agree with you on the whole no options for females thing. For example, Guild Wars 2 either has gear that exposes the ******* for all to see or just looks horrible. When I'm trying to find something a little classier for my female Mesmer (a duelist/illusionist archetype that I feel would wear something a little more fine) my options are slim to none. As someone on GW2's forums posted, all the female cloth sets look like "strippers in a tent."
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#58 Jan 27 2014 at 6:53 PM Rating: Good
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IDrownFish of the Seven Seas wrote:
There's **** out there of every race in WoW. Yes, gnomes, tauren, pandaren, etc. It all exists, because they all cater to niches that were unfilled before the race was introduced.

Anyways Digg, females in WoW have some very modest sets these days. Check out the current tier DK gear, current tier Rogue gear, etc. Seems like boobplate is mostly a thing of the past.

I agree with you on the whole no options for females thing. For example, Guild Wars 2 either has gear that exposes the ******* for all to see or just looks horrible. When I'm trying to find something a little classier for my female Mesmer (a duelist/illusionist archetype that I feel would wear something a little more fine) my options are slim to none. As someone on GW2's forums posted, all the female cloth sets look like "strippers in a tent."


WTF is with this trend where Blizzard thinks that no sets should ever include matching boots?

Why always the boots?
#59 Jan 27 2014 at 7:06 PM Rating: Decent
Lyrailis wrote:
WTF is with this trend where Blizzard thinks that no sets should ever include matching boots?

Why always the boots?


Matching boots exist, all the boots that drop from the same raid level as the tier is going to match that tier. Same with belts, cloaks, etc. They just aren't showing up in my link because I linked the tier set itself, and they're technically non-set pieces. They do still design and implement the gear as a full set, including non-set pieces, but for gameplay purposes only the main pieces (helm, shoulders, pants, chest, gloves) are part of the "tier set" itself.
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#60 Jan 27 2014 at 8:26 PM Rating: Excellent
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The thing is, women aren't coming into the situation from a place of power. For one, because they don't occupy a place of power in the culture at large. But even more importantly, because gaming is an IMMENSELY male-controlled industry right now.

So you have male models with gear that shows off signs of male power and dominance. That has the potential to be sexual, but it can also just be an expression of power. Though it does also have a layer of wish fulfillment with regards to what men think women want.

But then the female models are sexualized in a weak and submissive way. They don't get bulging muscles like the male models (and I mean that in the way that they aren't even physically equivalent, adjusting for *** differences). They get doughy curves or stick-thin figures (that are frankly more in-keeping with severe malnutrition in humans), thin/long necks, dainty hands/feet, etc.

That brings a really disturbing power dynamic into play. Why do male characters get to become powerfu gods when female characters have to turn into starved, weak supermodels?

It's because the design is catering to the male gaze. It's the same reason action figures for boys have massive, bulging muscles. It's not meant to be sexual, it's meant to make the player feel powerful.

The female model, on the other hand, is rarely designed for females. It's still designed for the male gaze, and it's effect is meant to make them feel powerful, but also be a sexual object for them.

And that leaves the female player with no real options. Playing the male character isn't all that appealing because the male gaze's impression of power as sexual doesn't match up to the reality of female sexuality (despite what male impressions typically are). And many female players don't want to give up the chance to play as a female character, when they so rarely get to do it. And particularly not when they have to be bulging-muscle-guy.

Or they get to play as the female model and feel objectified. It's a no-win scenario for them, when it was win-win for males.

Games ARE getting better here, adding more body types, sliders, etc. But it's still a problem with gear in most games.


I'm STILL ****** that TOR added the slave outfit skin. They were doing SO well - armor was realistic and didn't objectify the models, they gave 4 distinct body types to choose from (from small and skinny to tall and large).

And then they added the **** slave outfit, and they made it adaptive, so ANY female character could wear it with any mods (and it would turn into that armor level). AAAAND that was that. It's like every **** male player is a female ex-slave who has yet to find a change of clothes.
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#61 Jan 27 2014 at 8:43 PM Rating: Good
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You summed it up rather nicely Idiggory. Smiley: nod
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#62 Jan 27 2014 at 8:56 PM Rating: Decent
Question, digg, for the sake of discussion and because I'm curious:

How would you describe the ideal female model / aesthetic?
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#63 Jan 27 2014 at 9:48 PM Rating: Good
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@digg:

Mmm you make some good points.

Games are slowly getting better (again, Mass Effect and Saints Row depending on how you build your character in the latter). But yet as you said, there's many that are still hanging behind.

I love WoW's pandaren females. Worgen are... well, they're "meh" and "good" at the same time. They've got that dangerous feral thing going with how they move and their snarled snouts, but yet they also have obvious feminine sexuality going on too with what looks like eyeliner (colored fur) underneath their eyes and such. And they're a bit thin IMO; they should have a little more muscle than that.

EDIT: My Saints Row build? I give her just slightly above average bust, long black hair, a decent muscle tone (not body builder but quite fit), and I dress her with tennis shoes, black slacks, a black jacket with a red button shirt underneath.

She looks absolutely badass and classy at the same time. I should screenshot her sometime.

Edited, Jan 27th 2014 10:50pm by Lyrailis
#64 Jan 27 2014 at 9:52 PM Rating: Decent
Lyrailis wrote:
EDIT: My Saints Row build? I give her just slightly above average bust, long black hair, a decent muscle tone (not body builder but quite fit), and I dress her with tennis shoes, black slacks, a black jacket with a red button shirt underneath.

She looks absolutely badass and classy at the same time. I should screenshot her sometime.


I love Saint's Row. In 3 I had an elderly female Kim Jong Il with a Russian accent and an iridescent purple afro.

Edited, Jan 27th 2014 10:52pm by IDrownFish
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#65 Jan 27 2014 at 9:54 PM Rating: Good
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IDrownFish of the Seven Seas wrote:
Lyrailis wrote:
EDIT: My Saints Row build? I give her just slightly above average bust, long black hair, a decent muscle tone (not body builder but quite fit), and I dress her with tennis shoes, black slacks, a black jacket with a red button shirt underneath.

She looks absolutely badass and classy at the same time. I should screenshot her sometime.


I love Saint's Row. In 3 I had an elderly female Kim Jong Il with a Russian accent and an iridescent purple afro.

Edited, Jan 27th 2014 10:52pm by IDrownFish


I've seen pics of some crazy builds in SR3. I like to go practical. lol.

http://cloud-2.steampowered.com/ugc/3278920192963214494/F863464F3B0C752479CA9C2A8036D16CB498CBC2/

Not that I normally shop there (closest store to a gateway), but that's basically what I mean.

Edited, Jan 27th 2014 10:58pm by Lyrailis
#66 Jan 27 2014 at 10:58 PM Rating: Excellent
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I guess I'm probably outside the norm. I'd estimate I'm about 50/50 on male/female characters. I don't choose them for whether or not I want to look at their butts. My reasons have included:

I have a male in that race already, why would I want another one?
The male of the race looks crappy, but the female is more aesthetic to me.
The male is too **** big (I'm looking at you Tauren).
Why not?

I do, however, think the power/fantasy thing is dead on for the mostly male designers, as well as the male-dominated audience, especially the younger ones. It's always interesting to pay attention to how other players interact with female characters. I also find it interesting when people wonder about a male playing a female character. WoW is, after all, a RPG...even if there isn't much RP to it.
#67 Jan 28 2014 at 6:30 AM Rating: Good
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
That brings a really disturbing power dynamic into play. Why do male characters get to become powerfu gods when female characters have to turn into starved, weak supermodels?


I think you guys have a pretty weird perspective on what is thin and what is thick.

None of the females in any game I've played has reminded me of starved, weak supermodels (maybe the female Forsaken, but yeah...). Supermodels, sure, but starved and weak? Hardly. The models are designed after an ideal, of course, but WoW in particular does a good job of creating diversity, despite the identical models within each race. Take a female Orc, for instance. Hardly a starved, weak supermodel. If female Blood Elves are starved and weak then so is a lot of women I come across on a daily basis. Night Elves and Blood Elves are very lean, yes, but nothing abnormal around these parts.

It's worth noting that CDC statistics from 2010 marks 38% of the adult US population as obese. Not overweight. Obese. I guess a 120 lbs Blood Elf looks skinny if the norm is 200+ lbs.

idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
It's because the design is catering to the male gaze. It's the same reason action figures for boys have massive, bulging muscles. It's not meant to be sexual, it's meant to make the player feel powerful.


The models are based on ideals. To most people of most cultures, the ideal man is muscular while the ideal woman is lean and busty. Whether those physical traits empower you or not depends entirely on the individual. I doubt any game developer out there would have the money to design a model for each individual player based on their preferences, though, so we get what we get: muscular men and lean, busty women.

But yes, the gear seems to favor a male perspective, assuming female gamers don't feel empowered by looking like a million dollars.

Edited, Jan 28th 2014 1:32pm by Mazra
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#68 Jan 28 2014 at 9:47 AM Rating: Excellent
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Not having read half the thread, I'm not sure TERA is the game to use as a place where the male characters are power fantasies. I mean, muscular, sure, but the frames on some of them are not what one thinks of when thinking power fantasy.
#69 Jan 28 2014 at 10:11 AM Rating: Good
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The One and Only Poldaran wrote:
Not having read half the thread, I'm not sure TERA is the game to use as a place where the male characters are power fantasies. I mean, muscular, sure, but the frames on some of them are not what one thinks of when thinking power fantasy.
If TERA gets credit for anything, it's for indulging both fantasies for both sexes. Aman and Bakara appear powerful, Castanics are slutty, High Elves are "pretty" sexualized (in that both sexes are beautiful and also flaunt it kind of thing), Humans fit the traditional gamer stereotypes for male and female characters, and Popori and Elin fill the cutesy and slightly disturbing role which is a must for any Asian MMO.
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#70 Jan 28 2014 at 10:16 AM Rating: Excellent
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
I'm STILL ****** that TOR added the slave outfit skin. They were doing SO well - armor was realistic and didn't objectify the models, they gave 4 distinct body types to choose from (from small and skinny to tall and large).

And then they added the **** slave outfit, and they made it adaptive, so ANY female character could wear it with any mods (and it would turn into that armor level). AAAAND that was that. It's like every **** male player is a female ex-slave who has yet to find a change of clothes.
Yeah it wasn't having it initially that was a problem, I expected it for a Star Wars game, it was having a new version of it in every single goody bag the sell. Then you make them common in those bags, and good lord watch out, dirt cheap bikinis all over the GTN... Smiley: lol

I am happy they started adding some stuff between slave girl and jedi though. There was hardly a thing between the two extremes for way too long.
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#71 Jan 28 2014 at 10:27 AM Rating: Good
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IDrownFish of the Seven Seas wrote:
Question, digg, for the sake of discussion and because I'm curious:

How would you describe the ideal female model / aesthetic?


One design issue with female bodies is that they generally vary far more than male body types do. Males typically end up stocky or lanky, or somewhere in between, but our bodies are typically more square. Sure, we have different natural waists, and some of us have broad shoulders, etc. But because we don't naturally have curves, the overall effect tends to be rather rectangular. So most games just design a male model that's right in the middle, and excepting for muscle/fat %s, it's close enough to the body most males have.

Female bodies vary far more wildly. Where their body tends to carry fat (bust, hips, rear), how broad their shoulders are, how thick their neck is, whether or not they have a natural hourglass or are more sturdy, etc. And then you take the same body type and add height and it changes quite a bit, where it doesn't for males, because female body fat percentages are naturally higher.

That said, most female gamers I know fully accept that this is not a super realistic goal for designers. At least for normal, single-player games (because there's something to be said for development time when you're expected to drop MANY days of your life, and a subscription, into a game to play that character).

So what I think is important is that female models are designed according to female perspectives. If guys want idealized models for male characters, fine. If females want idealized models for female characters, fine. But what's not okay is when female models are idealized relative to the male gaze.

What that means, specifically, I can't say. At the end of the day, I still have a male perspective. I can sympathize with the female position, but I don't know what it's like to be interacting with a female model relative to female body image.

What I can deliver via testimony from the female gamers I know is that most of them want characters who are suited to the task at hand. Which IS an idealized version of a body. Fem!Shep had a stocky frame and muscles in her arms and solid thighs AND she had curves and some delicate features. But then when you applied the male gaze, she turned into pornstar!Shepard... The female gamers I knew were livid. Not because blond, long-haired Shepard was an option, but because it was clear that fem!Shep had just been taken away from them. Turned into a *** icon, instead of a strong, confident soldier (who, sure, could get some if she wanted it).

And I think that's the big point. They may want beauty in their models, but they want them to look capable first and beautiful second.

And they typically seem to want everyday beautiful, not red carpet beautiful.

One last thing I want to really stress is that capability is relative to what you're doing. Showing a little bit more skin when you're wearing a robe is WAY more acceptable than a teardrop in your plate armor for a tank. You're a caster? Immaculate make-up, red lipstick, careful bob. You make it look good. Warrior? No or light make-up, short hair, etc.

Women are used to evaluating their looks by situation, and MANY female gamers actively do that with their characters. It's an aspect of male privilege that we, generally, don't have to do that by societal standards. We wear the same haircut on the red carpet as we do to go get coffee in the morning (and both look remarkably like bedhead). We go from flip flops and shorts to wearing tuxes with relative ease.

Women are forced to evaluate their looks by situation just because of the way our society is structured. And that has a BIG impact on the way they evaluate the appearance of female models in games. And it's one that is usually completely lost on male designers.


The fact that the ones making the lines and cuts of clothing/gear in the game are all male compounds that problem further.

[EDIT]

I bolded the part I think is one of the most important parts missing in this discussion so far.

Male ideals of women are one-size-fits-all.

Female ideals of women are all relative to the situations women find themselves in. Women DON'T want to look like a red carpet actress at work. But they may want to look like what that actress looked like at work in the movie she's getting an award for.

And that's important.

Edited, Jan 28th 2014 11:29am by idiggory
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#72 Jan 28 2014 at 10:38 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
What I can deliver via testimony from the female gamers I know is that most of them want characters who are suited to the task at hand. Which IS an idealized version of a body. Fem!Shep had a stocky frame and muscles in her arms and solid thighs AND she had curves and some delicate features. But then when you applied the male gaze, she turned into pornstar!Shepard... The female gamers I knew were livid. Not because blond, long-haired Shepard was an option, but because it was clear that fem!Shep had just been taken away from them. Turned into a *** icon, instead of a strong, confident soldier (who, sure, could get some if she wanted it).


Errr, what?

You lost me with this. Fem!Shep is.... not a **** star, nor a *** icon that I ever knew of. Outside of, of course, r34 but then that's how r34 works.

You're telling me that female gamers were angry because some guys fapped to Fem!Shep, even though Fem!Shep should be everything they ever wanted in a game?

Quote:
And I think that's the big point. They may want beauty in their models, but they want them to look capable first and beautiful second.


And Fem!Shep does exactly that. As you even said, she's got the right body type and looks for her situation (a battle-hardened soldier) and outside of a dress (that she wears for a very specific occasion in the storyline), she has no ****, slutty, or revealing outfits whatsoever (outside of the lingerie she wears in *** scenes, but uh... what Else do you wear to bed?). The dress she wears, she wears purely because she had to attend a high-class party undercover.

So yeah, You lost me with this.

EDIT: Also worth mentioning is the fact that Fem!Shep never once (outside of *** scenes) acted in a sexual way, or weak in any way. In fact, she's quite the opposite until at least Mid-ME3; she has an unbreakable will, and more guts than most male heroes (other than Male!Shep obviously).

Edited, Jan 28th 2014 11:42am by Lyrailis
#73 Jan 28 2014 at 10:40 AM Rating: Excellent
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'k, so, I'm a female gamer, and I have three things to say:

1. I hate panty armor. It's ridiculous and I resent being forced to wear it purely for the amusement of developers and fourteen-year-old boys. Luckily I have transmog, so I'm not forced to wear it. Its very existence is not offensive to me. If you think it's a good idea run into a sword fight with nothing on but a string over your nipples, have at it.

2. I like thin and pretty character models. This is pretty hypocritical given my position on panty armor, but it's not so much that I'm a slave to the patriarchy as it is that if I want to see a muffin top, I don't need to play a fantasy game to do it. So I guess I'm fine with objectified women if they're objectified in ways I prescribe for myself? Yes, a slider would be nice so we could all have whatever body type we want. No, I do not expect that from WoW at this stage.

3. I don't know WTF Maz is on about. My female worgen are HAWT.
#74 Jan 28 2014 at 10:45 AM Rating: Good
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3. I don't know WTF Maz is on about. My female worgen are HAWT.


Good to see someone who likes the female worgen.

Though to be honest, they could add about 10lbs of muscle on her (and add just a little to chest/hips to compensate so she doesn't look like a body builder) and maybe tweak the 'eyeliner' eyes a bit. Werewolves are usually depicted as having rippling muscle. Ever seen the webcomic, Alpha Luna? Good example of a female werewolf.

The feral/beastly movements are simply perfect, though. I hope they never touch those.
#75 Jan 28 2014 at 10:46 AM Rating: Excellent
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
I bolded the part I think is one of the most important parts missing in this discussion so far.
At first I thought you had morphed into Smash on me. Smiley: lol

Ironically though, that's something that had caught my attention just the other day. I've been engrossed in Sims3 lately, and one of the options in character creation was different hairstyles to go with different outfits. Just something that stood out to me as an option that's missing from even many of the more detailed character creation screens in many games. I assumed it was because that's certainly one of the few games out there where the female audience is a major driving force.

Then came here this morning, read your post, and had a "lightbulb" moment. Smiley: lol

Edited, Jan 28th 2014 8:46am by someproteinguy
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#76 Jan 28 2014 at 11:17 AM Rating: Excellent
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Lyrailis wrote:
Quote:
3. I don't know WTF Maz is on about. My female worgen are HAWT.


Good to see someone who likes the female worgen.

Though to be honest, they could add about 10lbs of muscle on her (and add just a little to chest/hips to compensate so she doesn't look like a body builder) and maybe tweak the 'eyeliner' eyes a bit. Werewolves are usually depicted as having rippling muscle. Ever seen the webcomic, Alpha Luna? Good example of a female werewolf.

The feral/beastly movements are simply perfect, though. I hope they never touch those.


I could live without the sniffing.

I wouldn't like them bulked up or to lose that stereotypically girlish face - I like them a lot versus a lot of other "monster" races out there because they're sufficiently wolfie while still looking like ladies. [EDIT: but I agree with almost everyone that the alpha models were better.] Like I said, I unabashedly like my character to be pretty, or barring that, at least feminine. (And no, panty armor is not what I mean by feminine.)

I'm not going to lie though - since I came back to WoW and restarted as Alliance I've played almost exclusively Worgen because I'm obsessed with Gilneas, but I'm almost always in human form when I'm not in combat. Smiley: wink The clothes look better that way. I love having the options a part-time beast offers. I just wish they'd show you on the login screen in whatever form you logged out last in - it's the easiest place to see details/colors on your outfits.

Unrelated side note: playing so much Gilnean has made me hate Sylvanas. Smiley: disappointed

Edited, Jan 28th 2014 4:53pm by teacake
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