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#1 Nov 27 2013 at 3:51 PM Rating: Excellent
Ghostcrawler is saying goodbye to Blizzard.

Ghostcrawler wrote:
You know that part at the end of raid night when the final boss is dead and you’re done handing out loot and everyone kind of goes their separate ways? Yeah, this is one of those times.

We just came off of a great BlizzCon. We had so many different games to talk about, and we were thrilled at the reception of Warlords of Draenor. It was great to meet or reconnect with so many of you. I love BlizzCon dearly, which makes it so hard to tell you that this will be my last one, or at least my last one up on stage. An opportunity has come my way, and I have made the very tough decision to move on from Blizzard.

I wanted to thank all of you for being a part of this grand quest. I have said a hundred times that having passionate gamers, including the angry ones, is a far better place to be than having a community that doesn’t care. You all care. Like us, you want the game to be the best that it can be. So I ask you to keep on providing your feedback. I promise (and I rarely promise!) that the developers care very much about what you have to say.

I’ll be out there, and I can’t imagine it will be that hard to find me.

Hugs,
Ghostcrawler

P.S. No, you can’t have a pony. Or a moose. Or a mantis shrimp. Or a tardigrade. Or a crab. Keep trying though.

P.P.S. I play a Holy Priest.


Personally speaking, he's going to be very missed. He was a direct line of communication from the devs to the players, and they are going to have a **** of a time replacing him. Best of luck to him in the future.

Edited, Nov 27th 2013 4:53pm by IDrownFish
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#2 Nov 27 2013 at 3:56 PM Rating: Excellent
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Smiley: eek

Wow Smiley: clown, good for him though. He's got an impressive achievement on his resume, it had to be hard not to leverage that for so long. Kudos and good luck to him. What's he working on next? Anybody know?

Also, does this mean all those people who used him as an excuse to leave WoW are coming back now? Smiley: rolleyes
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#3 Nov 27 2013 at 4:12 PM Rating: Excellent
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someproteinguy wrote:

Also, does this mean all those people who used him as an excuse to leave WoW are coming back now? Smiley: rolleyes


My money is that the "WoW is dying!!1!" crowd will use it in a feeble attempt to try to prove their point.

Remember, complaining is the one thing the internet is good for. Regardless the news.
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#4 Nov 27 2013 at 4:28 PM Rating: Excellent
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Relevant?



Smiley: rolleyes

You'd think by this point people would point to WoW following the same life cycle as just about every other MMO out there. But I suppose you're right, yay internet! Smiley: yippee

Edited, Nov 27th 2013 2:38pm by someproteinguy
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#5 Nov 27 2013 at 4:46 PM Rating: Excellent
someproteinguy wrote:
You'd think by this point people would point to WoW following the same life cycle as just about every other MMO out there. But I suppose you're right, yay internet! Smiley: yippee

Edited, Nov 27th 2013 2:38pm by someproteinguy


What do you mean by that? Like, devs moving off to other projects as a sign of the decline of WoW?
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#6 Nov 27 2013 at 4:57 PM Rating: Excellent
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If anything it's the over-sized shoulder pads driving people away from the game. Smiley: nod

Only that the game started smaller, grew in popularity, peaked, and is now in the slow inevitable decline that follows that peak, like any number of games before it. Of course given WoWs popularity it'll be like the Simpsons and will still have hefty numbers of people tuning in 20 years from now as they continue to turn out decent entertainment; but the days when it shined the brightest are probably past in the eyes of most people.

Edited, Nov 27th 2013 2:58pm by someproteinguy
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#7 Nov 27 2013 at 7:16 PM Rating: Default
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Missed? MISSED? I'm sorry but... ahahahahahaha. I might actually return to WoW if he's gone. His knee-jerk overkill fix to every single issue is a big part of what drove me away from WoW. Before he was in charge, I remember looking forward to patches. Starting with Wrath and his reign, every patch made drastic changes that caused a whole host of other problems. And then he'd "fix" the "fixes". I'm happy to see him go.
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#8 Nov 27 2013 at 7:35 PM Rating: Excellent
Got any specific examples of what he personally broke, then?

Have you ever noticed how the devs actually communicate with the players these days? That's directly Ghostcrawler's doing - he's the one who started letting the fans see into what the devs were thinking for future changes and judging player feedback.

I at least had an immense respect for the guy, and I usually agreed with what he said in regards to design and gameplay. And we can actually read dev posts on MMOC because of GC.

Don't be happy the guy's leaving because you feel he nerfed your favorite class. Keep that kind of **** on the oboards.
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#9 Nov 27 2013 at 9:58 PM Rating: Excellent
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Well this is disappointing, for two reasons. Every time I take a WoW break and it asks why I'm unsubscribing, I type in "Because Ghostcrawler hates my class." Now, one, I can't keep reusing the same old joke anymore. And two, I've looked really stupid all this time since it turns out he plays a Holy Priest...
#10 Nov 27 2013 at 10:25 PM Rating: Excellent
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I wouldn't be so hard on yourself, for all we know he's some kind of *********. I mean you'd have to be a least a little to keep at his job as long as he did, right? Smiley: wink
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#11 Nov 27 2013 at 10:39 PM Rating: Good
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someproteinguy wrote:
Relevant?




Fat Leslie West is always relevant. That dood lived in my Blaupunkt car stereo for years and only came out when I let him into my Jensen Triaxials. Which was every day.

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#12 Nov 27 2013 at 10:40 PM Rating: Default
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oh come on now, it wasn't too long ago that we had lengthy discussions here about how terrible expansions and design choices were. I had EVERY class, so generally speaking, if one was nerfed anther got a buff. But most of the changes were heavy handed like destroying Beast Master hunters in Wrath, Cataclysm (et al), the nerf of warlocks damage by like 30% (was that Cataclysm too?)

I really couldn't care less about the devs communication with the community. The first team of devs didn't do that and they created an amazing game and follow-up expansion. What I care about are the results.
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#13 Nov 28 2013 at 12:12 AM Rating: Good
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ekaterinodar wrote:
oh come on now, it wasn't too long ago that we had lengthy discussions here about how terrible expansions and design choices were. I had EVERY class, so generally speaking, if one was nerfed anther got a buff. But most of the changes were heavy handed like destroying Beast Master hunters in Wrath, Cataclysm (et al), the nerf of warlocks damage by like 30% (was that Cataclysm too?)

I really couldn't care less about the devs communication with the community. The first team of devs didn't do that and they created an amazing game and follow-up expansion. What I care about are the results.


Vanilla and BC were pretty much inaccessible for the masses, what good isa game that only 1% of the playerbase ever got to truly enjoy?

Mr. Street's design choices gave us two of the most-loved expansions: Wrath and Mists. With them came do-able Heroics, LFR, and a whole slew of other things to make the game more smooth and fun.

He gave us Wrath and everybody loved it. Then they bent a knee to the hardcore whiners and gave us Cataclysm, the biggest steaming pile of crap in WoW History with the ridiculous dungeons, nerfed self-heals, and tedious crafting.

Then they said "you know what? **** with the whiners... let's make the game fun and accessible for all and add optional challenge" ......now we got Mists. And everybody rejoiced. Well, almost everybody.

Mr. Street did awesome things for WoW and a part of me worries what will happen now that he's gone. Hopefully his successor isn't stupid enough to unleash another Cataclysm upon us.
#14 Nov 28 2013 at 2:26 AM Rating: Good
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BC was fine. Vanilla is another story. But middle to end of BC was fantastic. Were there dungeons that were hard without people who knew what they were doing? Absolutely. It's called *heroic* for a reason.
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#15 Nov 28 2013 at 4:03 AM Rating: Excellent
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Lyrailis wrote:
He gave us Wrath and everybody loved it. Then they bent a knee to the hardcore whiners and gave us Cataclysm, the biggest steaming pile of crap in WoW History with the ridiculous dungeons, nerfed self-heals, and tedious crafting..


Cata Heroics were great. The Expansion had many faults but the maxlevel dungeons were not one of them. People unwilling to use CC and read up on bosses made them a horrific experience, not their design.

And yes, I remember how many people here criticized the way class balance in this game was handled for the last couple of years. I don't say GC was bad for WoW, but please, it's a bit early for the oft-mentioned rose-tinted glasses.
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#16 Nov 28 2013 at 6:35 AM Rating: Excellent
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TherealLogros wrote:

Cata Heroics were great. The Expansion had many faults but the maxlevel dungeons were not one of them. People unwilling to use CC and read up on bosses made them a horrific experience, not their design.


Yes Cata heroics were amazing... if you ran them with friends or guild members. They were an absolute nightmare with pugs. Sure there were people who were "CC? Wut? pull n00b! GoGoGoGo!" but I found most of the trouble lied with getting some of the worst grouping. Nothing like getting really bad CC setup for dungeons like Grim Batol.

You cannot have hard heroics as the only option when the skill of players you are going to get is completely random.
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#17 Nov 28 2013 at 8:21 AM Rating: Excellent
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I remember lengthy discussions calling people mouth-breathing morons for thinking that ghostcrawler was, in any way, directly associated with a change they didn't like. He might be the lead systems designer, but he doesn't personally make decisions on those things. Everything involves a team discussion that determines if something is an immediate problem, what their various options to fix it are, the pros and cons of each, what else will need to change, etc.

Ghostcrawler reported the final results of that discussion. You can also be **** sure that all their decisions went through someone like Metzen, QA, etc. before they ever made it into the game.

Thinking he's, in any way, directly responsible for changes you don't like is stupid as ****. Most major changes you don't like are almost certainly in response to a directive from above his head. The lead project manager would be the one with the ultimate and most important say in things like balance prioritization ("Oh, this class has one highly functional PVE spec, two highly functional PVP specs, and a tree only good for leveling? Well, we have classes in worse positions, so ignore it for now.")

Quote:
I really couldn't care less about the devs communication with the community. The first team of devs didn't do that and they created an amazing game and follow-up expansion. What I care about are the results.


You're an idiot. One of the most major complaints about MMOs since WoW is that there's not enough communication from the dev team to the players.

Ghostcrawler's team is one that has to take the information that is handed to them by their research division and filtered by the game leadership, with regards to where they want the game to go, and then they get to play in that general area.

It's not like they just come up with something, build it, and put it in the game.
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#18 Nov 28 2013 at 10:09 AM Rating: Good
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IDrownFish of the Seven Seas wrote:
Got any specific examples of what he personally broke, then?


TO THE GROUND, BABY!

Edit: I've had my disagreements with Ghostcrawler, but I'm sad to see him go.

Edit2: The above "To the ground, baby" reference is to the Retribution Paladin nerf that occurred back in TBC. I know Ghostcrawler wasn't responsible, but the meme still happened and even exists as an achievement today. Just to explain it to the newbie with the itchy trigger-finger.

Edited, Nov 28th 2013 5:26pm by Mazra
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#19 Nov 28 2013 at 11:02 AM Rating: Default
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TherealLogros wrote:
Lyrailis wrote:
He gave us Wrath and everybody loved it. Then they bent a knee to the hardcore whiners and gave us Cataclysm, the biggest steaming pile of crap in WoW History with the ridiculous dungeons, nerfed self-heals, and tedious crafting..


Cata Heroics were great. The Expansion had many faults but the maxlevel dungeons were not one of them. People unwilling to use CC and read up on bosses made them a horrific experience, not their design.

And yes, I remember how many people here criticized the way class balance in this game was handled for the last couple of years. I don't say GC was bad for WoW, but please, it's a bit early for the oft-mentioned rose-tinted glasses.



^^
Pretty much, this.

Requiring CC when not every class can CC every mob type was stupid, especially when the game randomly grabs 1 tank, 1 healer, and 3 DPS without caring what class they are for what dungeon.

It wasn't that people were "too stupid" to use CC, is the fact that sometimes you got groups where the CC options were.... less-than-optimal at best.

And then you also had the bosses with the very slim margin of error. Corla. Ozruk. Having to rely upon 3rd party addons to tell you to move before the boss does his attack is kinda stupid (because the attack gives you 1.5s and there's no way you're going to move that fast without having the game telling you to move before he even starts casting said ability).

And again, Random LFD... this stuff just doesn't work in Random PUGs.

Mists did a good job adding Challenge Modes, but they needed to do more -- Challenge Mode was just gear scaling, an extra mechanic here-and-there, and a Time Limit.

What they SHOULD have done with Challenge Mode, was tune it up a bit, give each boss a new mechanic that emphasizes awareness and skill (but not pure reaction time), scale the gear down to appropriate I-level......and get rid of the Time Limit, and place a limit of *deaths*. Getting a gold medal requires no more than 2 deaths during the course of the dungeon. That way you could do strategy, careful pulls, all of the things you had to do in Cataclysm, BC and Vanilla without it feeling like a MAXDPS rush.
#20 Nov 28 2013 at 11:21 AM Rating: Excellent
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Was the state of CC in Cata really that bad? I may be misremembering here but I don't think I ever had a group without the option of proper CCing. And those weren't all guildruns. Many of them, thankfully, but not all.

Ozruk was doable without any addons. I solo'd Stonecore around 80 times this expansion without any Cata-plugin. And YES I know I was level 90. That's beside the point.
My point is, after I failed a few times in the beginning I never was hit by any of his abilities again because I then knew his pattern well enough to dodge them even without DBM screaming at me. Sure, I wasn't relying on anyone other than me to execute the fight properly then. But if I managed to do so without an addon, why should people in a PUG not be able to do it with said addon? Downloading DBM isn't too much to ask, in my book. Either Blizzard disables ALL addons or they design the encounter with the knowledge in mind that addons exist and will be used.

I agree with everything you said about CMs. For all I care they can even design two different CM modes for every dungeon. One with the time limit and one with the other approach you described (or something similar).
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#21 Nov 28 2013 at 11:35 AM Rating: Excellent
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ekaterinodar wrote:
oh come on now, it wasn't too long ago that we had lengthy discussions here about how terrible expansions and design choices were.
The changes to affect class balance didn't bother me as much as the changes that happened for change sake (assuming they do a reasonable job at the balancing of course). I realize the game gets old and we need to freshen it up, but there comes a point where you don't recognize the game you've played for years, and re-learning it stops being worthwhile. There were times when I felt the pace of change was too fast and people who didn't spend a chunk of their free time reading patch notes and following the development process were getting screwed because of it.
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#22 Nov 28 2013 at 12:53 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Was the state of CC in Cata really that bad? I may be misremembering here but I don't think I ever had a group without the option of proper CCing. And those weren't all guildruns. Many of them, thankfully, but not all.


I really do think you are misremembering. CC availability was a major problem in the LFG tool.

Death Knight - no CC
Druid - Hibernate, and Entangling Roots/Cyclone for really short CC
Hunter - Freezing Trap
Mage - Polymorph
Paladin - Turn Evil and Repentence (for Retadins, and its cd matches its duration).
Priest - Mind Control (which you don't really want to use), and an undead-only fear.
Rogue - Sap
Shaman - Hex and Bind Elemental
Warlock - Fear and Banish
Warrior - Glyphed Intimidating Shout

Of these, Hex and Polymorph are by far the strongest. They each only affect humanoids and beasts.

The ONLY CC on this list useful for (more or less) every mob are Freezing Trap and Sap (and Repentence, but that's spec-specific).

Humanoids can be comfortably CC'd by Mages, Shaman, and Retadins (though the latter is more limited)
Dragonkin can be comfortably CC'd by Druids and Retadins.
Elementals can be comfortably CC'd by Shaman and Warlocks.
Bears can be comfortably CC'd by all of the above.

There are other fears, most notably Fear (lol), which are more last-resort CCs, because they have a high risk of pulling additional mobs.

But let's suppose you didn't get a Rogue, Hunter or Retadin. Now you're playing the rocks-paper-scissors game, and whether or not you're screwed depends on what heroic you're doing. If you have elementals to CC, then that Shaman or Warlock won't be so bad. The Shaman is still useful for Humanoids, the Warlock less so. A Mage is solid against Humanoids, but can't help against Dragonkin.

If you need to CC Dragonkin, better hope you have a Druid in your group.

Etc.

The power levels are just all over the place. If you get a Rogue, a Mage, a Shaman healer, a Hunter/Retadin, and a Warrior or DK tank, you're team setup is WAY more equipped than pretty much any other possibility available. You can CC any mob type, and your group can easily hold 4 mobs in long-term CC.

On the other hand, without a Retadin, a Hunter, or a Rogue, you're now playing a much more annoying game.
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#23 Nov 28 2013 at 1:04 PM Rating: Good
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idiggory wrote:
Stuff about Cata CC


You forgot Shackle Undead (or did they get rid of that spell?), but there were very few undead in Cataclysm Heroics.

Quote:
Ozruk was doable without any addons. I solo'd Stonecore around 80 times this expansion without any Cata-plugin. And YES I know I was level 90.


Getting hit for 120k or such as a Level 90 is a "meh" attack that you can easily heal through.

Getting hit for 120k while you were Level 85 meant instant death unless you were wearing purples (which you weren't during 4.0 most likely). only tanks had enough health to withstand that AoE Doom Attack of his. Said attack only gave you 1.5s to move or thereabouts and you pretty much needed to know it was coming ahead of time. Theroetically you could move as soon as the game warned you and MAYBE escape it, but that's a big maybe -- any bit of lag means you died.

And, of course, they nerfed Ozruk too -- that was like in 4.1 or 4.2 or something. You're fighting the nerfed version. The original version was simply ridiculous, and a lot of people complained it was ridiculous, even some raiders complained about that fight.

#24 Nov 28 2013 at 1:07 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
You forgot Shackle Undead (or did they get rid of that spell?), but there were very few undead in Cataclysm Heroics.


I probably just missed it.

But same deal. Outside of Priests and Freezing Trap/Sap/Repentence, very few CC styles work on Undead.

Fear, of course, has a wide reach. But I'd rather try no-CC before I try using fear...
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#25 Nov 28 2013 at 1:28 PM Rating: Excellent
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Lyrailis wrote:
Quote:
Ozruk was doable without any addons. I solo'd Stonecore around 80 times this expansion without any Cata-plugin. And YES I know I was level 90.


Getting hit for 120k or such as a Level 90 is a "meh" attack that you can easily heal through.

Getting hit for 120k while you were Level 85 meant instant death unless you were wearing purples (which you weren't during 4.0 most likely). only tanks had enough health to withstand that AoE Doom Attack of his. Said attack only gave you 1.5s to move or thereabouts and you pretty much needed to know it was coming ahead of time. Theroetically you could move as soon as the game warned you and MAYBE escape it, but that's a big maybe -- any bit of lag means you died.

And, of course, they nerfed Ozruk too -- that was like in 4.1 or 4.2 or something. You're fighting the nerfed version. The original version was simply ridiculous, and a lot of people complained it was ridiculous, even some raiders complained about that fight.



Uhm, my whole point was that I was not getting hit by his AoE ability, Shatter. So it doesn't matter how much HP I have.

And yes, they nerfed him about 2 months after release. His cast was made slightly longer and there was a visual added that alerted you further. But if you had DBM it was avoidable even before that. Heroics where part of endgame progression then, so I see no problem with it requiring addons.


Edit to add: Okay seems like I was overestimating CC at that given time.

Regarding Fear, wasn't the Glyph of Fear changed somewhere around the start of Cata to have it make feared enemies tremble in place instead of running away? Still not a great CC, but slightly less prone of backfiring. Smiley: lol

Edited, Nov 28th 2013 2:33pm by TherealLogros
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#26 Nov 28 2013 at 1:49 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
And yes, they nerfed him about 2 months after release. His cast was made slightly longer and there was a visual added that alerted you further. But if you had DBM it was avoidable even before that. Heroics where part of endgame progression then, so I see no problem with it requiring addons.


Edit to add: Okay seems like I was overestimating CC at that given time.

Regarding Fear, wasn't the Glyph of Fear changed somewhere around the start of Cata to have it make feared enemies tremble in place instead of running away? Still not a great CC, but slightly less prone of backfiring. Smiley: lol


Sort of rings a bell. I didn't have a lock, so I didn't track their CC closely.

Also, I'm firmly against any design situation in which an addon becomes required. Addons should make your life easier and adjust the game to your aesthetics. They should NEVER make the game noticeably easier.
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#27 Nov 28 2013 at 2:06 PM Rating: Excellent
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
Quote:
And yes, they nerfed him about 2 months after release. His cast was made slightly longer and there was a visual added that alerted you further. But if you had DBM it was avoidable even before that. Heroics where part of endgame progression then, so I see no problem with it requiring addons.


Edit to add: Okay seems like I was overestimating CC at that given time.

Regarding Fear, wasn't the Glyph of Fear changed somewhere around the start of Cata to have it make feared enemies tremble in place instead of running away? Still not a great CC, but slightly less prone of backfiring. Smiley: lol


Sort of rings a bell. I didn't have a lock, so I didn't track their CC closely.

Also, I'm firmly against any design situation in which an addon becomes required. Addons should make your life easier and adjust the game to your aesthetics. They should NEVER make the game noticeably easier.


^^
This.

Blizzard is trying to move away from Addons-Required, and for good reason.

How good is a game when you are required to download things written by third parties just to be able to participate? That means the game isn't very well designed. Imagine if Skyrim had a boss so powerful that he was impossible to kill unless you downloaded someone's mod that put an overpowered weapon/armor/spell in the game or something like that.

WoW needs to stand on its own with no third-party addons. And they're getting pretty close to that point now -- old addons are being written into the game by default (power auras, many raid warnings, dungeon/raid journals, maps inside of instances, rare mob icons appearing on minimap) and the fights are being tailored so you don't need DBM to tell you everything.

If the game were designed properly, you should be able to do everything in the game with nothing but the stock UI. Now of course this means no "one button mounts", no information about gear on other characters, and the stock UI which I've heard a lot of players say is "ugly as sin" (though I don't mind it), etc. Those are just QoL things that Blizzard might or might not include in the game.

Really wish Blizz would get onto a simple One-Button Random Mount, though. I mean that is so basic.... maybe someday they will.
#28 Nov 28 2013 at 4:08 PM Rating: Good
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I'm fine with addons and macros being used to give stuff like random mount castings. I'm fine with a fishing mod that automatically turns of the music when you take out your pole. I'm fine with addons that let you set up cooldown timers and such (though it's seriously insane that the UI option for timer bars doesn't already exist in the standard UI, and it SHOULD be implemented). I'm fine with threat meters.

I'm particularly fine with addons (like fishing buddy) that group together optiosn you would typically use together in particular situations. Like "Equip pole, turn off music, turn up sound effects." That's just a simple quality of life enhancement.

What I'm not okay with is an addon that has a massive popup on your screen that eliminates the learning and skill portion of fights, like "RUN AWAY FROM BOSS," that just leads to those encounters being either a joke, or something that are scaled to the difficulty of having that mod installed and thus suck for anyone else.

It just shouldn't exist. There's no good reason for it. It actively affects the ease of content, with no other impact. It's taking a design aspect and doing everything possible to avoid it.

Encounters are designed to use specific audio and visual cues, plus learning, to beat. An addon that replaces those with an impossible-to-miss alert on your screen is, in a very real way, changing the encounter for those players. It's not enhancing the way they perform, it's fundamentally changing the way they perform. They are no longer looking for the clues that the encounter was designed around; they've written off an entire part of the designed content and replaced it with an automated addon.
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#29 Nov 28 2013 at 4:55 PM Rating: Excellent
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^^^^^
Well said.

I always wondered "why do they bother designing this stuff if someone is going to make a third party addon that'll do that for you?"
#30 Nov 28 2013 at 5:28 PM Rating: Excellent
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Oh I'm not a big fan of those addons either. I was only arguing, that as long as they exist and are put to use, it makes sense that the developers consider these addons when designing a raid or dungeon.
My first raiding experiences were without addons and it was superior to todays raiding. Much of what the boss does or says is lost on me because I'm concentrating on other things.


Edit: Me not using addons back then was not because it was at the dawn of time (for MMOs) but because I was a great nup and didn't even know they existed. Also I had PvP equip on my warlock because IT HAD MORE ARMOR. Smiley: oyvey

Edited, Nov 28th 2013 6:30pm by TherealLogros
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#31 Nov 28 2013 at 7:25 PM Rating: Good
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I've been a heavy addon user by my own standards, but I probably used less than many on this board. I was never the "must tailor my ui to be perfect" type. I mostly looked for the simple QoL changes.
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#32 Nov 28 2013 at 9:17 PM Rating: Good
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
I've been a heavy addon user by my own standards, but I probably used less than many on this board. I was never the "must tailor my ui to be perfect" type. I mostly looked for the simple QoL changes.


Same here.

What I run:

TitanPanel: Because I like having simple commonly-used information at-a-glance. Money made per hour, xp per hour, my Durability %, Latency and Coordinates, all on-screen along with an easy volume slider instead of having to go through the ingame menus to access it.

GoGoMount: "Press this to use a random (relevant type) mount" is awesome (I have mine mapped to the Y key, works nicely). Haven't found any other addon that works anywhere near as well.

MogIt ('nuff said)

Archaeology Helper (My God this thing is awesome... makes Archaeology a lot faster and easier)

Gathermate2 (because of Archaeology Helper)

And I have some sort of... handynotes or something running, but that's only for Timeless Isle chests because I don't like alt-tabbing to figure out where the chests are and/or trying to memorize it.

I had NPCScan running but I don't think I will be needing that now. Maybe the Overlay part of it where it colors the map where rares commonly pop, but I don't think I'd need the scanner itself anymore.

Armory. Because I run 22 characters, its hard to remember who has what.

........and that's pretty much all I use.

Edited, Nov 28th 2013 10:18pm by Lyrailis
#33 Nov 29 2013 at 12:58 AM Rating: Good
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someproteinguy wrote:
ekaterinodar wrote:
oh come on now, it wasn't too long ago that we had lengthy discussions here about how terrible expansions and design choices were.
The changes to affect class balance didn't bother me as much as the changes that happened for change sake (assuming they do a reasonable job at the balancing of course). I realize the game gets old and we need to freshen it up, but there comes a point where you don't recognize the game you've played for years, and re-learning it stops being worthwhile. There were times when I felt the pace of change was too fast and people who didn't spend a chunk of their free time reading patch notes and following the development process were getting screwed because of it.


That is my overwhelming complaint. Each expansion was like a new game. Classes were drastically changed to the point that they were often unrecognizable from the previous expansion. During some stints, classes would change drastically from patch to patch. I don't care so much about the nerfing and the buffing, but how it was done. Having to fundamentally relearn how to play my character I've had for years was getting annoying. Changes? Yes. But relearn? I had enough of it.
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#34 Nov 29 2013 at 2:04 AM Rating: Excellent
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ekaterinodar wrote:

That is my overwhelming complaint. Each expansion was like a new game. Classes were drastically changed to the point that they were often unrecognizable from the previous expansion. During some stints, classes would change drastically from patch to patch. I don't care so much about the nerfing and the buffing, but how it was done. Having to fundamentally relearn how to play my character I've had for years was getting annoying. Changes? Yes. But relearn? I had enough of it.


Sounds like you can learn a thing or two from fail druid.
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#35 Nov 29 2013 at 6:10 AM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:

That is my overwhelming complaint. Each expansion was like a new game. Classes were drastically changed to the point that they were often unrecognizable from the previous expansion. During some stints, classes would change drastically from patch to patch. I don't care so much about the nerfing and the buffing, but how it was done. Having to fundamentally relearn how to play my character I've had for years was getting annoying. Changes? Yes. But relearn? I had enough of it.


A lot of the changes make the class more interesting, though!

And of course advances in technology (new stuff they add to the game's engine) allows for more interesting play.

Think... I don't know, Ret Paladin.

Back in Wrath of the Lich King, Ret was a Yawnfest -- a computer could do it. In fact they had addons telling you what buttons to press when. How did that go... something like... Judge Crusader Exo Judge Crusader Exo Judge Crusader Exo or something like that? Oh wait, there was consecrate too.

Or how about Cataclysm Arcane Mage? Now that's something to laugh at. The "Two-Button Mage" where you literally only had 2 abilities with the occasional 3rd button to press now-and-then.

Those are very boring playstyles. MoP Arcane Mage is at least a little more interesting with the Bombs and the need to dump Arcane Power stacks, at least. Still simple, but at least there's a LITTLE more complexity to it.

And Ret Paladin, well, it got spruced up quite a bit, it is no longer 1-2-3-4-1-2-3-4 like it was before, especially if you take Divine Purpose for a little mix-up.

Yes, you need to "relearn" some classes sometimes... but usually changes THAT large only happen when there was something "wrong" with the class in the previous expansion that they couldn't quite figure out how to fix (Cataclysm Warlocks going into MoP, Demo got a lot of good changes which drastically altered the playstyle in a good way).

And some people LIKE re-learning their classes; it makes the game feel a little newer and more fresh if they're not using the same abilities and rotations for 3 years+.

Edited, Nov 29th 2013 7:10am by Lyrailis
#36 Nov 29 2013 at 8:51 AM Rating: Good
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I miss Wrath Arcane. :(

Also, I've never warmed to Mastery as a stat.
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#37 Nov 29 2013 at 9:28 AM Rating: Excellent
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The whole having an arcane mage and a kitty in the same raid was a good dichotomy, just for balancing out the universe at the very least. Smiley: rolleyes

Simple rotations don't really bother me much, they allow a development team to concentrate on making a more dynamic encounter. The less time you have to spend watching your CD timers and procs the more time you can spend on fight mechanics and the like. Fighting the boss instead of fighting with the global cooldown or something. There's only so much complexity the average person can deal with before getting glassy-eyed and standing in something.

Also, the constant parade of various secondary stats is amusing. Which ones are we adding and dropping this time?

Also also, some of us had a lot of fun playing Warlock in Cata, then change... Smiley: glare Smiley: motz

Edited, Nov 29th 2013 7:28am by someproteinguy
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#38 Nov 29 2013 at 11:15 AM Rating: Excellent
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Arcane was simple, but it did require skill to actually be good at it. Sure, you didn't watch 4 different timers. More like you had to very carefully monitor your mana expenditure over time. Going OOM was super easy with Arcane, and it was devastating for your dps. Likewise, because the damage of your spells were exponential, hitting your evocation CD without being nearly OOM meant your DPS was far lower than it could have been.

It definitely took skill to play Arcane well, and there was a noticeable dps difference when it was.

It's more like someone who wasn't a very good player could do 70% max dps, and someone who was very skilled would do like 90%. For other classes, that might be more like 50/90%, of whatever.

But I don't think balance really matters at the lower level. Since everyone in your raid would, theoretically, be about the same level of skill, I think it matters that the dps be balanced at that approximate skill level. And I think Arcane was.
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#39 Nov 29 2013 at 12:54 PM Rating: Excellent
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I kinda like Mastery.

Every class gets a passive ability that is boosted by a secondary stat found on your gear. A neat idea, though I think some classes could use better masteries (Arcane Mastery is ridiculously awesome, Ret Paladin Mastery is 'meh'.. Blood DK's mastery is hilariously good, etc).

The idea behind Mastery is an awesome one; they just need to make more classes have more better mastery passives. But then if they do that, then everybody wants to stack mastery instead of just a few people. Meh.

Either way, the Stat Itself is a nice idea. ArPen, though.... eeew. *shudder* That's the last thing we needed, another Hit/Expertise-type stat.

I don't mind them adding more secondaries, assuming said secondaries are actually interesting and don't have "caps" that you're expected to reach before you do anything else (that's why Defense/Hit/Expertise was stupid).

Edited, Nov 29th 2013 1:55pm by Lyrailis
#40 Nov 29 2013 at 3:05 PM Rating: Good
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I don't like how Mastery has gone from being a cutesy thing to a game making (and breaking) stat.

Look through Icy-Veins. Pretty much every class and every spec has Mastery as the highest priority secondary stat (after exp/hit caps). It's the new spell/attack power stat.
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#41 Nov 29 2013 at 3:40 PM Rating: Good
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Mazra wrote:
I don't like how Mastery has gone from being a cutesy thing to a game making (and breaking) stat.

Look through Icy-Veins. Pretty much every class and every spec has Mastery as the highest priority secondary stat (after exp/hit caps). It's the new spell/attack power stat.


Every class?

I know some classes had Mastery as being pretty important, but I didn't think that was true for *all* (or, well, 'pretty much every' as you said) classes, though. But then it has been awhile since I really cared about secondaries; I'm not trying to gear craft alts for SoO or anything.

Edited, Nov 29th 2013 4:41pm by Lyrailis
#42 Nov 29 2013 at 6:36 PM Rating: Good
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Well, I may have exaggerated slightly for effect. Smiley: um

Blood and Frost Death Knights
Feral and Restoration Druids
Beast Mastery Hunters
Arcane Mages
Brewmaster Monks
Holy Paladins
Holy Priests
Assassination Rogues
Elemental and Enhancement Shamans
Affliction and Destruction Warlocks

This is a rough cut, seeing as I didn't include specs that go mastery after hitting a haste soft cap or similar.

Regardless, I feel mastery has a much too large impact on the specs that do gear for it. If my Feral Druid lost all her mastery rating, her damage output would drop by 50% or more.

Edited, Nov 30th 2013 1:39am by Mazra
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#43 Nov 29 2013 at 7:01 PM Rating: Good
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Mazra wrote:
Well, I may have exaggerated slightly for effect. Smiley: um

Blood and Frost Death Knights
Feral and Restoration Druids
Beast Mastery Hunters
Arcane Mages
Brewmaster Monks
Holy Paladins
Holy Priests
Assassination Rogues
Elemental and Enhancement Shamans
Affliction and Destruction Warlocks

This is a rough cut, seeing as I didn't include specs that go mastery after hitting a haste soft cap or similar.

Regardless, I feel mastery has a much too large impact on the specs that do gear for it. If my Feral Druid lost all her mastery rating, her damage output would drop by 50% or more.

Edited, Nov 30th 2013 1:39am by Mazra


Yeah, it along with Haste has such a profound effect upon your performance.

Lately I've just been stacking Haste and then Mastery on all of my characters. lol. I don't care about a 1% chance to miss or a 3% chance to be dodged/parried. I do care about my Energy regenerating faster, Crusader Strike being usable again sooner, and my stuff hitting for more damage, though.

That and Timeless Isle gear loves over-capping you on Hit/Exp anyways. Most of my craft alts are well over the hit cap without even trying. I'm reforging out of Hit every chance I get and I'm still over cap on some of them.

Edited, Nov 29th 2013 8:01pm by Lyrailis
#44 Nov 29 2013 at 11:37 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
I kinda like Mastery.

Every class gets a passive ability that is boosted by a secondary stat found on your gear. A neat idea, though I think some classes could use better masteries (Arcane Mastery is ridiculously awesome, Ret Paladin Mastery is 'meh'.. Blood DK's mastery is hilariously good, etc).


I HATE the Arcane Mastery. As in, I can't stand it. I don't care if it's OP or not, I just think it's brutally uninteresting and drives a playstyle shift that I don't enjoy. I HATE having my damage fluctuate with my mana level. It drives me insane, and I just flat-out don't enjoy Arcane anymore because of it. It also annoys the crap out of me for leveling, because it forces me to slow down in my mob chaining, or else my damage suffers. And that sucks. Particularly when you get an unfortunate mid-fight add.

But Fire continues to be broken, because the game systems can't actually support the implementation, and Frost is still super boring (I don't really want my Mage to be a pet class).

At least the new version of the Frost mastery is sort of interesting. I might enjoy using it.

(What? I'm not jaded. You're jaded. Shut up.)

But even then, I just don't like mastery. I don't like the fact that there's a stat that exists just to remove the need for Blizz to balance stats. Because, unlike something like crit or hit or expertise or ArPen, mastery doesn't affect every class the same. It's a really BS way to excuse yourself from having to balance. They can directly lower the return of mastery on one class by just changing the mastery itself, and that's just not cool, imo.

Plus, it's such an uneven concept. My Unholy DK's mastery is a flat buff to his shadow damage. Which means that the more mastery he has, the less valuable anything that doesn't do shadow damage is. Which is why the class needed to have all of its non shadow/shadowfrost abilities removed from its rotation.

Now, I have a clear shadow > physical priority, and it's entirely because of mastery. And that gap grows wider the more mastery I have, further shifting the weight of my dps onto a smaller portion of my dps.

I don't want a scenario where a delayed Scourge Strike is a significant DPS loss, because it dominates my damage returns due to mastery. I don't want my rotation to be so burst heavy that the rest of my attacks feel like filler.
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#45 Nov 30 2013 at 11:23 AM Rating: Good
That sounds to me like more of an issue with UHDK's mastery than mastery as a whole.

But back to your point of mastery as a lazy way to balance stats - I disagree. Blizzard has multiple times this expansion tweaked other stats without messing with mastery. For example: Mistweaver monks. Haste and Crit weren't being valued enough, so Blizzard made Crit generate more mana for Mistweavers, and Haste give 50% more benefit while in Serpent Stance. The end result is making secondary stats more valuable without messing with their mastery at all. Even after some mastery specific buffs, it's still the weakest stat for them.

Haste and Crit don't just increase speed and Crit chance. For most classes, they have a secondary effect unique to the spec that Blizzard uses to balance the stat for that spec, rather than tweak the rate of return. Are these unique effects really so much different from mastery and how that stat does unique things for every spec?
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#46 Nov 30 2013 at 1:43 PM Rating: Good
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IDrownFish of the Seven Seas wrote:
That sounds to me like more of an issue with UHDK's mastery than mastery as a whole.

But back to your point of mastery as a lazy way to balance stats - I disagree. Blizzard has multiple times this expansion tweaked other stats without messing with mastery. For example: Mistweaver monks. Haste and Crit weren't being valued enough, so Blizzard made Crit generate more mana for Mistweavers, and Haste give 50% more benefit while in Serpent Stance. The end result is making secondary stats more valuable without messing with their mastery at all. Even after some mastery specific buffs, it's still the weakest stat for them.

Haste and Crit don't just increase speed and Crit chance. For most classes, they have a secondary effect unique to the spec that Blizzard uses to balance the stat for that spec, rather than tweak the rate of return. Are these unique effects really so much different from mastery and how that stat does unique things for every spec?


It's fundamentally different.

The problem is that Mastery is a dishonest stat. For some specs, +1% mastery is less than 300 mastery rating, for Brewmaster it's 3000 rating (wowiki numbers).

Haste and Crit may not JUST buff those stats, but they do always buff those stats equally across classes. Additional value might be found to those stats through things like talents, of course. And that's always been the case. Haste and crit are so good for Enh Shammies because of Flurry.

But that's the end return of the stat from the same base effect. As in, 1% haste is translating to 1.6% dps for me, when it would only be .8% dps for someone else. And that's perfectly fine, and good, and it makes classes distinct, and it makes stats play together in interesting ways.

Mastery is fundamentally different, because we don't have that base point like with other stats. It's return is essentially arbitrary.

When you give me X crit rating, you know I'm going to have a y% increase in crit chance, the same as anyone else. I might be fortunate enough to have some unique ways to take advantage of the stat, like a chance equal to my crit to generate a second auto-attack, or maybe I have a higher crit modifier, whatever.

The reason this matters is because it grounded every class at the exact same point. All stat interactions happened in the same realm of, for lack of a better word, honesty. We scaled with stats differently because they interacted with our talents and mechanics differently, not because the stat was fundamentally different.

That's what mastery is. It's an arbitrary stat. It's directly measured to a return on a class-by-class basis, which takes away the need for Blizzard to appropriately balance itemization on gear. Once upon a time, Blizz had to be accountable to their balancing decisions, because their balancing decisions had to largely consist of changing the core function of something, or changing something for everyone (like increasing the crit -> percentage ratio across the board).

Now, all they have to do is tweak the mastery return to make the stat more/less valuable and they have an immense ability to control every other number from there (due to stat relationships). Unless a class is doing too much damage with no mastery rating, they don't realistically need to do anything else.

It's a fail safe. And that's crap.
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#47 Nov 30 2013 at 1:58 PM Rating: Excellent
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man you guys know way more about these stats than i think anyone is supposed too Smiley: tongue I just go stab stab cast kick punch slice headbutt spin etc etc till mob is dead :)
well not really :) anyway this is all interesting reading actually it puts a lot of light on mastery which i didnt really know about. It makes you rethink how to reforge your stats...
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#48 Nov 30 2013 at 3:09 PM Rating: Good
I guess I'm not really seeing where the problem is. It's another lever they can pull and tweak until balance is closer to what they are going for.

I'd even argue that rating giving different percents to different classes is required in order to have unique mastery effects. Haste/crit can have unique effects like I said earlier, but they still do the same thing across the board: make you do the "chance to deal more damage" more often, and let you "do things" more often. Because mastery has such a huge difference between specs, there can't be the same ratio of rating to effect for everyone. The ideal is that a given amount of mastery rating would increase thoroughput by the same amount for everyone, and to achieve that unique ratios are required for the varied effects. Otherwise someone who has a straight damage increase such as Affliction warlocks would out scale someone like Shadow Priests (chance for dots to deal damage twice) extremely rapidly. Unique ratios aren't just a cheap way to balance mastery, I would argue they are the only way.

But I'm still curious as to why you dislike this system. What about having different rating to percent mastery ratios do you not like? You say it's dishonest, but they never claim anywhere that it is the same across the board anyways. Haste and crit happen to work that way but you would have no way of knowing it just looking at your character panel. In fact, if you only had a single character and viewed their panel, you could fairly easily figure out how much rating gives you one percent for all your stats and never assume anything about someone else's.

And they certainly aren't trying to obfuscate the information, either. It's readily available for anyone who wants to look it up.

Let me be clear, I'm not trying to be condescending or disagreeing with you. I'm just saying my thought process and trying to understand yours.

Edited, Nov 30th 2013 4:11pm by IDrownFish
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#49 Nov 30 2013 at 6:59 PM Rating: Good
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I think it's a fundamental break in the core value of stat progression when you can just stop making gear with an intent for balance and instead just go ahead and change the effect of the gear on the player directly.

I think it's built into the structure of the game, of a vertical progression model, that gear needs to make you stronger over time, that your growth in strength needs to be comparable across classes, and that you can have measurable yardsticks by which to gauge your progress. When you're playing a Mistwalker and you have a certain +% mastery, I think it's a serious issue that switching your spec, alone, is going to break your conception of vertical progress. Because you don't have a measurable marker of where you were in the past. Because you now take 6x the mastery to increase by 1%.

Furthermore, there's an honesty to the value of gear and stat balance by holding each class to the same standard of stats. You might not use each stat in precisely the same way, but they're still having the same basic effect. The mechanic that governs crits is generally the mechanic that governs everything that makes crit more valuable for one class or another (namely, it's generally the event of landing a critical hit).

Same with hit. While our hit needs might change by class, the effect of hit is comprehensible. I understand, fundamentally, why I want hit. Why someone else wants hit. When it's me vs. someone else rolling on a piece of gear, I fundamentally understand what they stand to gain from the piece.

And I really, REALLY worry about a game that breaks stats into class-distinct pieces.

I mean, are you honestly comfortable with there being stats that are completely unique to specs in their influence? I mean, it's obviously so much easier to balance them that way, so why bother with anything else? We're now losing hit and expertise, which pretty much leaves us with haste, mastery, and crit for the known secondaries.

Do you really have no problem with the idea that they would just completely remove the defined impact of those stats and go a mastery route? That it might take a Mage 100 haste to go up 1%, but might take a Warlock 570? That a DK could get 1% attack speed for 70, but a Shaman needs 498?

That really, really bothers me. Because it makes gearing up so freaking arbitrary.

I sometimes tend towards a more scientific style of thought, wanting things measurable wherever possible. And the idea of a stat system that doesn't even bother to be uniform completely alienates me. It makes the entire process of gearing up feel so controlled and arbitrary.

Now, obviously gearing IS controlled. They don't just drop stat increases onto things at random. But when there's a standard every class is being held to, there's an assurance that you're getting SOMETHING of a sandbox experience.

That experience goes away when Blizz can just so carefully tailor the effect of stats on you that what you pick up barely even matters.


And to be 100% clear, some of this is clearly tinfoil hat stuff. It's also the position I've had since Cata, and I feel really quite reaffirmed in it with the stat conversations of WoD. I wouldn't be remotely surprised if things like cleaved were given unique conversion ratios by spec, and I honestly just wouldn't be interested in gearing up that way.

As it is, I scoff every time I have to take mastery. Because I freaking hate it.
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#50 Nov 30 2013 at 8:36 PM Rating: Decent
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Only problem I really had with the guy is he seemed like a smartalec. I remember when so many people were complaining about disliking the Cata expansion and his response was something along the lines of learning how to play your class. Instead of listening to players that were unhappy he just criticized their playing skills as subscriptions dropped to an all time low.
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