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Opinion On: Panda DailiesFollow

#52 Nov 13 2012 at 5:45 PM Rating: Default
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'You only need to do 13 dailies per day to cap your coins for the week.'

LOL. Only 13? Phew.

Depending on the server that can take an hour or more. I guess if you love dailies...

13 dailies for a week straight and I'll have to take a two week break from dailies.

Patch 5.2: Revenge of the Even More Dailies
6 more daily factions including pvp reputations required to buy pvp gear!
Come experience the new 'content!'
#53 Nov 13 2012 at 5:56 PM Rating: Good
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Can i just point out, for REAL raiding YOU DO NOT HAVE TO DO DAILIES (Cept the 45 for lesser charms) as i pointed out in my post, Valor Point gear is the SAME ilvl as the FIRST Tier (of 3) or Normal mode Vaults, EVERY Normal Raid after that is higher.

Is it a nice option so you could maybe fill in a spot that that one boss just wont drop yeah, but you can also do LFR to try getting it, its a lower ilvl but you dont need to do dailies. Wanna know a trick? You can only loot a LFR Boss once a week but you can spend tokens no matter what. So lets say you really want the dagger a certain raidboss drops, doesnt drop on normals so you do LFR doesnt drop you finish LFR, you can reque and try the boss again and spend a token for another shot.

Also you can que for LFR with only heroic gear ilvl 460 for MSV, 470 for HoF, and 470 for Terrace(im guessing). So again. If you don't want to do dailies, you don't have to.

The more i think about this topic I'm seeing it for what it is, whiney entitled people wanting free epics. If you don't want to do dailies, don't do dailies, But stop whining about how you cant get gear. If you want gear that bad join a raiding guild learn how to not drool on your keyboard and get shiney purples. Problem solved you get the ilvl489 gear you want, and dont have to do dailies.

As for 'wasting' VP guess what every progressive raider, or even some casuals are ALREADY wasting VP Cause they downed Vaults already and moved on to HoF and guess what? You cant buy ilvl495 VP gear, so if anything the raiders should be ******** not anyone else, because the system is supposed to be there for raider who dont get the drops they want from the current tier as a side thing. Now they cant get a piece because it worse then the current tier, but thats why LFR is in place to offset that.

Also come next tier of raiding no one cares about the old reps (possibly) cause its outclassed and they are going to probably go back to a vendor somewhere to just buy VP gear.

My point being is if you don't want to do dailies then don't do them. But don't ***** if they have an item you want. Go out and raid, it fixes your problem, you can get the items you want.

As for LFR loot, it's there to stop selling of items. I hated LFR for that reason, if it was plate and they could roll on it god forbid if everyone and their mother rolled on it even if it wasnt their spec, or they had a better piece in that slot, then they would sell it to the highest bidder. I was so disgusted by that I just chose not to run LFG back then.

If you really need proof of concept. Dracian, my rogue(linked in previous post) Is nearly exalted with everyone and have a 479 ilvl. Bacon my Warrior alt(Also linked) has is a few ilvls behind 473, and has tillers and Klaxxi revered only cause i ran them for tokens. BTW up until last week I hadn't raided a normal raid (Server time diff caused issues).

My Point being is again, if you don't want to do dailies, don't, but stop complaining you cant get the gear you feel entitled to. Kinda an example is lets say you do a normal raid get stupid lucky and every boss drops an item for you and you win lots etc.Your completely geared from this, by the way you guys speak next week you shouldnt have to waste your time coming to raid, I mean you get nothing out of it. It doesnt work like that, you come and help farm for EVERYONE in the raid, it's wasting your precious time still, which seems to be everyones real problem here.

Sorry for the rant it's just there's so many **** options and still people complain. You have dailies and LFR, or raiding, **** you can also almost Farm and buy a full set of decent epics to feel better about you ilvl epeens. This is an MMO, not a log on 2 hours once a week and get gear handed to you game but a game where you can get gear in MANY ways.

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#54 Nov 13 2012 at 6:10 PM Rating: Default
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'The more i think about this topic I'm seeing it for what it is, whiney entitled people wanting free epics.'

Is that what it is champ? Man here I was thinking it was just complaints (the validity is depending on your pov I guess) about a certain game mechanic. Blizzard wants to remove VP gear and LFR? Fine with me. I've done maybe 2 LFRs ever. The vast majority of my gear from pre-BC through Cata has been from drops. Thank god for those free epics!

What I don't want is for Blizzard to dangle that sweet carrot in front of me - and I don't notice the river of sewage I have to swim through to get it (a little over the top I guess but so is Blizzard's use of daily quests as a way of end game progression in MoP).
#55 Nov 13 2012 at 6:21 PM Rating: Excellent
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You have to grind rep, just so you can spend VP.

That is a grind double dip IMO.

http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/244531-sick-of-blizz-lies-about-hearing-feedback/

The guy makes a very pertinent point about the removal of faction grinds for shoulder & head chants and then putting all VP behind a grind that is greater even than sons of hodir, which is generally recognized as being a major pain in the ***.
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#56 Nov 13 2012 at 6:29 PM Rating: Excellent
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Kirsanov wrote:
'The more i think about this topic I'm seeing it for what it is, whiney entitled people wanting free epics.'

Is that what it is champ? Man here I was thinking it was just complaints (the validity is depending on your pov I guess) about a certain game mechanic. Blizzard wants to remove VP gear and LFR? Fine with me. I've done maybe 2 LFRs ever. The vast majority of my gear from pre-BC through Cata has been from drops. Thank god for those free epics!

What I don't want is for Blizzard to dangle that sweet carrot in front of me - and I don't notice the river of sewage I have to swim through to get it (a little over the top I guess but so is Blizzard's use of daily quests as a way of end game progression in MoP).


Bolded for clarity. Dailies are not 'end game progression' so stop saying they are, they are there for CASUALS who DON'T/CAN'T do normal raids a chance to get some decent gear. Progression relies more on player skill then gear crutches. I mean you don't think the top 100-200 guilds say you cant raid unless you have full vp. News flash: They downed all six normal the first week with mostly blue gear, and then started heroic versions next week.

As i said, the VP gear is ilvl489, the LOWEST of the 3 tiers this patch, as for the "dangling the carrot' its always been raid gear, always.

I mean no one ever sat down and said, "You know what i want to sit down with 24 other people with different playstyles, that i don't like, that make mistakes, that I can't control, and at least 10 of them are mouth-breathing, window-lickers that you wonder how they managed to even install WoW in the first place since they cant even seem to click on the right icons, would be fun and mentally healthy for me." Nope we did it for the gear, we subjugated our mental well being for some shiny trinkets that sometimes never dropped. I'll take dailies over that again any day.

No one is forcing you to do dailies, in the end they provide almost nothing for you if your raiding as by the time you can even afford some of the gear you should already have a few pieces from raiding.




Edited, Nov 13th 2012 6:30pm by BeanX
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#57 Nov 13 2012 at 6:40 PM Rating: Decent
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BeanX wrote:
Bolded for clarity. Dailies are not 'end game progression' so stop saying they are, they are there for CASUALS who DON'T/CAN'T do normal raids a chance to get some decent gear. Progression relies more on player skill then gear crutches. I mean you don't think the top 100-200 guilds say you cant raid unless you have full vp. News flash: They downed all six normal the first week with mostly blue gear, and then started heroic versions next week.

As i said, the VP gear is ilvl489, the LOWEST of the 3 tiers this patch, as for the "dangling the carrot' its always been raid gear, always.


Of course 5.1 will invalidate that excuse. 489 becomes 493 then 497. So for certain pieces they will be BiS outside of heroic, which a large portion of the community will not see at current level. Only if it is nerfed after the next tier is released.
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#58 Nov 13 2012 at 6:43 PM Rating: Good
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bodhisattva wrote:
You have to grind rep, just so you can spend VP.

That is a grind double dip IMO.

http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/244531-sick-of-blizz-lies-about-hearing-feedback/

The guy makes a very pertinent point about the removal of faction grinds for shoulder & head chants and then putting all VP behind a grind that is greater even than sons of hodir, which is generally recognized as being a major pain in the ***.


I do agree if the VP gear was relevant to non-casual raiding putting it behind a daily wall sucks. I'm more ****** that because of of it I cant get gear for the current Ilvl I'm in like it supposed to work and its there for LFR. Dont get me wrong I'm not saying it shouldn't be there for LFR/casual players, but to ***** the people it was intended for, the raider who keep not winning lots/loot gets passed to others in raid, irks me. It was there so even if the boss didnt drop your items you had a consolation prize that if you saved them up you could get something you really wanted. Like how carnival games work, trade the smaller booby prizes in for a Big prize.

I guess the token system does help out a lot in that regard but I think they need to give like 5 tokens a week instead of 3. IDK just kinda tossing that idea around.

As for puitting the enchant for proffs behind a rep wall. They arent like Head/Shoulder enchants used to be BOP, so you can toss em on a scroll and AH/sell em or shout for people looking for em. So again you dont have to do the rep grind to get the enchants you can let someone else do it and pay them for there time.

I read a bit of that thread, and was thinking about that while i was writing my last post, which you posted whil eI was writing hence the double post.
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#59 Nov 13 2012 at 6:52 PM Rating: Good
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bodhisattva wrote:
Of course 5.1 will invalidate that excuse. 489 becomes 493 then 497. So for certain pieces they will be BiS outside of heroic, which a large portion of the community will not see at current level. Only if it is nerfed after the next tier is released.


I think you're talking about the upgrade system that's coming in 5.1, (Another thing you can spend your VP on, so its not wasted if you dont daily grind), but you forget to take into account that all gear can be upgraded, and by 5.1 Terrace will be out which drops 502 ilvl natively, so after upgrades 489 gear will still be the lowest 497, while HoF will be 503, and terrace will be 509. I might be wrong, maybe I'm having a dumb moment but I still dont understand how Vp gear could ever be BIS after HoF/TES are open.

Also not trying to say you're wrong, but yes BIS natively has the best stat alignment to your class/spec, but with reforging, even most none BIS is a negligible dps loss. For the min/maxers out there that need to have BIS though, nothing stopped em before from grinding for it so they aren't really the people I was addressing in my posts. We all make sacrafices for the gear/items we want, some of us its dealing with stupid people(raiding) some of us its grinding dailies.



Edited, Nov 13th 2012 6:57pm by BeanX
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#60 Nov 13 2012 at 7:23 PM Rating: Excellent
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There are going to be cases where buffed 489 might be more desirable than buff HoF gear, based on gem slots & secondary stat preferences.

Also, for a player who vividly remembers having a blue mace almost up until we downed Vashj in TBC (I farmed 21+ kara clears before my mace dropped). There are going to be items that just don't drop. Heck, Memento of Tyrande off of Illidan we saw 2 drops in 28 kills as server first alliance guild at the time. VP is designed to compliment raid gear at entry level, certain items have low % of a chance to drop, or the raid gear has poor itemization of focus stats so it becomes desirable. Now it isn't a matter of farming the VP, it is about farming the rep in order to spend VP which is rotting in your bags. Which is also a reason why Blizzard has posted that they plan on addressing VP rewards once you hit VP cap, as possibly extra currency or something else.


On a side note, someone mentioned badge gear being equivalent to SWP gear in TBC. As a raider who got into T6 when it still had an attunement and was one of the fraction of a fraction of 1% who killed SWP content while it was current, the badge epics were a small sidegrade below most T6 Hyjal/BT gear and well below SWP epics


Edited, Nov 13th 2012 8:24pm by bodhisattva

Edited, Nov 13th 2012 8:24pm by bodhisattva
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#61 Nov 13 2012 at 7:37 PM Rating: Excellent
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Ok Yeah I can understand what you're saying, but also by that time if your raiding, and your only doing dailies to get 3 tokens once a week (which IHMO) isnt Blizzard, or a raid guild asking too much of their raiders. I showed in one of my last posts you will be revered (Which is all you need to get VP gear, not exalted) with all the factions that have gear.
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#62 Nov 13 2012 at 9:04 PM Rating: Good
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bodhisattva wrote:
You have to grind rep, just so you can spend VP.

That is a grind double dip IMO.

http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/244531-sick-of-blizz-lies-about-hearing-feedback/

The guy makes a very pertinent point about the removal of faction grinds for shoulder & head chants and then putting all VP behind a grind that is greater even than sons of hodir, which is generally recognized as being a major pain in the ***.


Shoulder and Head Enchants are necessary for raiding during the entire expansion.

VP Gear bought from Rep Vendors can be done without, especially later in the expansion.
#63 Nov 13 2012 at 11:55 PM Rating: Decent
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Head & Shoulder rep were two reps. Hodir was probably the worst, but you could buy relic of ulduar and skip it. I forget if you could buy rep with Aldor & Scryer, but I want to say yes.

This is akin to needing to have rep in order to access hardmodes in TBC. Not a friendly move, though we were used to the grind and we were able to get most of the way through questing & dungeons, unlike Golden Lotus which is soley dailies and is a clear means of gating access to VP.
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#64 Nov 14 2012 at 12:49 AM Rating: Good
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bodhisattva wrote:
I forget if you could buy rep with Aldor & Scryer, but I want to say yes.
Sargeras emblem thingies and Sun(fire? fury?) rings could be sold on the AH. That's how I got about half the gold for my first epic flight speed.
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#65 Nov 14 2012 at 1:33 AM Rating: Good
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You could buy Fel Armaments and their Scryer equivalent from the AH too.
Yes something like this for at least one or two of the new factions would have been nice. But in essence I completely agree with BeanX. The current system is not nearly as bad as many people make it out to be. And I did skip the new dailies more often than not. But that was my choice and I don't need to blame Blizzard for that to make me feel better about myself...
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#66 Nov 14 2012 at 2:58 AM Rating: Decent
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Lyrailis wrote:
Overlord Theophany wrote:
This is why I PvP. My rep is honor, and my valor points are conquest points.

Guess what I do to earn them? PvP.

I saw the beginning of this crap in TBC, and I hated it. Rep grinds are stupid when they're for progression.

Right now I only do the Tillers and Anglers. Because they're fun and easy.


The reason why PvP is so easy, is because you don't kill bosses for drops (not counting Sha/TB/Vault). The entirety of PvP Progression is "get points for killing players" which sounds right. You do PvP, you get points. You use points to buy armor and weapons.

That's a complete oversimplification, but sure.

You realize that there's a cap to CP every week, right? And that there's a cap on each method of getting CP? And that the higher your arena/RBG team is rated, the higher your cap is?

There's a progression in PvP. I start out ahead of the curve because I'm in at the very least the top 5%, if not the top 1% in terms of skill. Gear plays a part, but not as much as you'd think.

Weapons you have to grind, BTW. The entry-level PvP weapons are only available via CP, and only after you've accumulated 7250 CP for the season (they cost 3500).

Kirsanov wrote:
Overlord Theophany wrote:
This is why I PvP. My rep is honor, and my valor points are conquest points.

Guess what I do to earn them? PvP.

I saw the beginning of this crap in TBC, and I hated it. Rep grinds are stupid when they're for progression.

Right now I only do the Tillers and Anglers. Because they're fun and easy.


So what would you do if you had to grind up a rep to spend your conquest and honor points (I'm sure they could find an idea to make it pvp-ish)?

Deal with it? Ragequit? How would you deal with the forum dwellers who defend it to no end and tell you to suck it up? Doesn't matter though - like I said they wouldn't dare do that.

I honestly can't fathom how anyone can just accept this and say it's 'okie dokie!' I mean they have to be trolling.

As I said before, I do sort of have to deal with it. None of my friends are good PvPers (my brother and a buddy that I regularly PvPed with both quit over a year ago), so I basically suck it up and either don't do arena (which isn't a big deal) or I do it with someone that's not very good.

I end up carrying most teams I play on regardless of what character I'm playing on.

Would it be awesome to go back to how Season 1 was, when you could buy whatever at any arena rating as long as you had the points? **** yes it would, because that system favors the casual player. It also doesn't reward the hardcore nearly as much as the current system does. I'm a casual right now, and just trolling people and dancing naked for 10 matches per week to get points would be awesome.

I don't complain though, because I have fun playing the game. I enjoy PvP (not all the time, there are times when it frustrates the **** out of me).

If you don't enjoy what you're doing, why are you doing it?

someproteinguy wrote:
Lyrailis wrote:
Overlord Theophany wrote:
This is why I PvP. My rep is honor, and my valor points are conquest points.

Guess what I do to earn them? PvP.


The reason why PvP is so easy, is because you don't kill bosses for drops (not counting Sha/TB/Vault). The entirety of PvP Progression is "get points for killing players" which sounds right. You do PvP, you get points. You use points to buy armor and weapons.

PvE, however, is more complicated than that. People want fat lewtz out of killing bosses, right? That sounds sensible. However, bosses don't drop enough gear to keep everybody happy, AND there's too much RNG. You need to fill, what, 15 slots on your character sheet and there's 5 people in a heroic dungeon group. That's 75 slots to fill if my quick math is working properly.

But yet if you gear people TOO fast, then the content seems trivial and too easy.


Bolded part.

PvP certainly has a 'gearing up process.' Mostly involving you playing a supporting role for better geared characters until you're geared enough to hold your own. However when you reach your gear cap the game continues to be intriguing longer because PvP is just a more dynamic environment. You really don't end up with the same situation as often, which is nice. Of course after a while there's burnout there as well (another OP Frost Mage... Smiley: mad or whatever.), but (IMO) it helps keep it interesting longer.

Now if only they could find a way to make PvE more dynamic they wouldn't have to gate it so heavily to keep people playing for the same amount of time.

Random dungeon generator anyone? I dunno, but something like that.

Bolded part: warriors.



And yeah, the gearing up process is MUCH more frustrating in PvP than in PvE.
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#67 Nov 14 2012 at 4:04 AM Rating: Decent
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Excessive dailies have driven me away from the game TBH. They are too many and take too long (and don't get me started on random drops for quest items). You do them for the rep and for the VPs. I might come back again to the game, but I highly doubt it. MoP had some pretty nice ideas behind it, but for someone like me who can't raid regularily due to time constraints, putting in over an hour a day (at least) to do dailies to be geared up for the random alt raid or pug just isn't an option.

Edited, Nov 14th 2012 5:05am by LGarth
#68 Nov 14 2012 at 10:52 AM Rating: Good
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BeanX wrote:

. . .Bunch of stuff . . .


I understand what you're saying, but I don't agree with you.

Your viewpoint seems to be that Valor gear is for progression raiders only and nobody else needs it.

If that were the case, VP should only be attainable through progression raiding. But it's not. It's attainable through heroics, scenarios, and dailies as well as raiding. And even if you decided to raid for your VP, you still couldn't spend them unless you did the hour(s)/day of dailies to unlock the privilege of buying the gear you have the points for.

I would argue also that progression raiders - for many of the reasons you yourself pointed out - are the least needing of the Valor gear to begin with. You guys are downing bosses and getting 489s as it is. Yes, you may have low spots in your gear that could be boosted or a bad run of drops. But you *are* clearing content and, as a group at least, are gaining ilvl every run I'd imagine. On the other hand, people who are trying to start raiding and are not yet downing bosses need all the help they can get. It's not that anybody "deserves" anything at all. It just seems to be turning a lot of people off that while you can gain VP in a lot of ways, you still have to do dailies to actually make use of it.

I don't think this is a whiny attitude. I think it's a valid complaint about a system that makes no sense. If the gear is intended solely for raiders, then let access to it be gained solely by raiding. But it's not. Somebody who does 3 hours of dailies a day can get better geared than one who is raiding every day and having no luck either downing bosses or getting drops.
#69 Nov 14 2012 at 11:58 AM Rating: Excellent
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Errm VP gear was originally intended as a consolation prize for those that didnt get gear from raiding or for downing bosses that didnt drop anything for your spec really. That was its original intent.

But the way it is now is like you stated, Its for people that don't raid or can't raid now. Its going to be some of the best gear a non raider can get. The point i was kinda trying to drive home was its an option either raid for your gear OR Grind for your gear. I was trying to point out that if you actively raid then you really aren't forced into doing dailies you can do some for tokens but other then mounts, and a few small side/early upgrades its not something required. But people here were complaining that pretty much they can't have their cake and eat it to, they want 489 but dont want to put the effort in to obtain it. The Gear is gated behind rep as a way of keeping pace with a normal way a raider gears, like i said before, it takes 21000 VP to get every piece of VP gear, or 21 weeks of Valor capping and even doing the bare minimum for tokens a week, you should EASILY have enough rep with the factions to buy every piece you want.

Part of the problem is most people think they are REQUIRED to do every daily every day til exalted, **** even I burned out on week 3 of doing that. But instead of having the self control to say Well Ill work on this one this week that one next week so i can pace myself.

Its like fat people trying to sue McDonalds for their food being good. McBlizzard isnt forcing you to eat, they are giving you the option, it's your own fault for over indulging.

As for tons of ways to gain but no way to spend, There are 3 ways Heroics, LFR, Dailies. Dailies to get VP and rep to spend Vp a means to and end, Heroics give like 80 Vp a day(40 after) So if you ran one heroic a day that's 560 Vp, LFR is 90 for 640 that leaves 360 Vp to get more. Now you could run heroics another 9 times or 72 dailies (over the rest of the week) to get your tokens and rep thats 10 dailies a day one extra on weekends. Which 10 dailies take approx the same time as one heroic.

In the end most people here are concerned about dailies taking to much time to get vp when the time it takes to get VP takes time it self. **** on Bacon i didn't do any dailies cept cooking and Tillers and was at 2500 VP, so i ran like 4 days of the 8 Klaxxi dailies which took about 10-20 mins each day and hit revered and bought the belt for 1750. now i have like 1k vp and still have the pants to buy for 2250. And since i still want to gear him even as a Non raiding toon i try to get tokens every week to spend in LFR, so I do my Golden lotus dailies, only the first hub, and by the time i buy the pants from klaxxi and be anywhere NEAR close enough VP to buy another piece I'll easily be revered with them doing almost nothing extra.

I will admit I came off very strong, but I was trying to make a point, you dont need to run dailies unless you dont want to Raid, and even if you do the minimum amount of dailies a day to get enough tokens to get a shot at extra loot in LFR/Sha youll get enough rep to buy the VP gear their saying they want.

Lets say theoretically Blizzard took Rep requirements off all VP gear, this is what would happen. Log on tuesday run LFR, then spam heroics until cap, then for the rest of the week people would sit in town and complain their nothing to do, which is something that happened in Cata (Minus rep for Head enchants) and they quickly got bored. This system is to avoid that saying here's something to do and if you do do it it gives you more gear options, so you dont have to spam heroics one day a week and then be bored for the rest of the week.

I did state I feel there should be something for raiders to use VP on (Patch 5.1 nulls this with upgradable gear).
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#70 Nov 14 2012 at 12:00 PM Rating: Excellent
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The gear isn't solely for raiders. It is solely for people who put forth the effort of obtaining it.

And where do this three hours of dailies/day come from? As stated before you only need to do Golden Lotus + Klaxxi and later on Shado-Pan + Celestials + Klaxxi. And by then Klaxxi should be nearly finished. That's not even close to three hours. I take about an hour for the latter combination.
I understand when people dislike this system but please stop with the exaggerations.
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#71 Nov 14 2012 at 12:09 PM Rating: Excellent
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TherealLogros wrote:

And where do this three hours of dailies/day come from?
I understand when people dislike this system but please stop with the exaggerations.


Just wanted to point out, If you do one heroic a day and 8-10 daily quests every day, which no matter which rep you choose Klaxxi, Golden Lotus, or August Celestials + Shado pan (since shadow pan is 5 a day and celestials is 4-5 which =10) It shouldnt take more then 1 hour a day even as a single target low aoe job. Thats about 30 mins for heroic, 30 mins for Dailies, even the most casual of us probably plays an hour a day.

Edit in here as i was thinking while i fished the average raid guild raids 2 nights a week for about 3 hours (so 6 hours of raiding) + 2 hours a week farming mats for flasks, cooking food etc, So about 8 hours a week total to be raid ready and prepared. and it takes about 1 hour a days (give or take) to do a heroic + dailies. So in the end you spend about the same amount of time a week as a raider to get the same (ish) gear as a non-raider.

Edited, Nov 14th 2012 12:30pm by BeanX
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#72 Nov 14 2012 at 3:08 PM Rating: Decent
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BeanX wrote:

. ., or 21 weeks of Valor capping and even doing the bare minimum for tokens a week, you should EASILY have enough rep with the factions to buy every piece you want.

Again, this assumes people must do at least some dailies. LGarth up there along with, probably close to half the people I know simply don't want to do them at all, ever, not even a little.

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Part of the problem is most people think they are REQUIRED to do every daily every day til exalted, **** even I burned out on week 3 of doing that. But instead of having the self control to say Well Ill work on this one this week that one next week so i can pace myself.

Eh, I did that to myself in an effort to get it all done, get all my mounts, and basically be "done."

Quote:
Its like fat people trying to sue McDonalds for their food being good. McBlizzard isnt forcing you to eat, they are giving you the option, it's your own fault for over indulging.

More like McDonalds selling SuperYummy Burger but only if you go into the store, not available in drive-thru. Makes not much sense and people are going to complain.

Quote:
. . . thats 10 dailies a day one extra on weekends. Which 10 dailies take approx the same time as one heroic.

Again, this presumes one does dailies which, again, some (a lot?) of people flat out don't want to do.


Quote:
I will admit I came off very strong, but I was trying to make a point, you dont need to run dailies unless you dont want to Raid, and even if you do the minimum amount of dailies a day to get enough tokens to get a shot at extra loot in LFR/Sha youll get enough rep to buy the VP gear their saying they want.

Well, you don't need to run dailies unless you want to spend Valor points. And for those of us banging our heads on current raid content, there's no gear being gained that way.

Quote:
Lets say theoretically Blizzard took Rep requirements off all VP gear, this is what would happen. Log on tuesday run LFR, then spam heroics until cap, then for the rest of the week people would sit in town and complain their nothing to do, which is something that happened in Cata (Minus rep for Head enchants) and they quickly got bored. This system is to avoid that saying here's something to do and if you do do it it gives you more gear options, so you dont have to spam heroics one day a week and then be bored for the rest of the week.

No, I agree that that model didn't work either. I guess the simple answer is that you aren't going to please everybody no matter what you do. In Cata you could ding, cheat your way into a few heroics, cheat your way into LFR and be fully kitted out from there so people got bored and left for "lack of content." Now, good gear is gated behind dailies so people who don't like/won't do/don't have time for those are complaining and leaving for "too many dailies."

I almost just wish they'd get rid of the whole system to begin with. Each boss drops a Gear Token that gets rolled for. You take that to a vendor and get whichever piece of that level gear you prefer. Eliminate "i got this mace 13 times and still no shield!!!!" and any sort of token grind.



#73 Nov 14 2012 at 5:44 PM Rating: Good
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Pantherfern wrote:
I [...] simply don't want to do [dailies] at all, ever, not even a little.
[...]
Again, this presumes one does dailies which, again, some (a lot?) of people flat out don't want to do.


That's not Blizzards fault. Seriously.
I skipped the dailies on more days than I did them. I still have some pieces of valor gear. Not as many as I could have, but who cares? And while my progression surely is not that impressive, the overall skill in my raid is a far bigger factor to that than our ilevel.

No dailies? No valor gear for you!

With every week that passes, with every world boss/LFR/normal mode/heroic mode ID, valor gear becomes less important. And these complaints less valid. And they weren't that justified to begin with, imo.
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#74 Nov 14 2012 at 7:11 PM Rating: Decent
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TherealLogros wrote:
With every week that passes, with every world boss/LFR/normal mode/heroic mode ID, valor gear becomes less important. And these complaints less valid. And they weren't that justified to begin with, imo.


Your statement couldn't be more detached from the reality of the situation, with 5.1 upgrades VP gear is going to remain fairly competitive with the exception of people who are pushing HM content, which is a small % of the population. I think it is also a safe bet that each class will have gear that is BiS until HM that is in VP. But for the majority going from VP to Terrace will be side grades and based on reaching caps and stat priority.

So lets throw the whole "gear will be dated, so your argument is invalid" argument out of the door and forget it. VP gear, while being a mandatory but quickly replaced item for progression raiders is in fact a very viable and competitive choice for your mid level, casual or LFR raider until T14 ends. Which is probably 4-5 months from now.

In fact, the fact that they took the extra step to gate access to the gear by placing it behind rep grinds with very clear set time to complete shows that they were aware of this when they set it up.

Quote:
the overall skill in my raid is a far bigger factor to that than our ilevel.


Is it? In the past I would have said yes, it has been a long time since we have seen a truly tight enrage timer outside of the trophy HM's. I made reference to it earlier in the thread, but I picked up some 476 and rep gear last week and it made a huge difference. For example Elegon, we went from 3 healers to 2. We shaved a minute off our fastest kill time. That was just me getting gear. Having a healer without VP gear is going to effect your progression on a fight like Elegon. Having a DPS that doesn't have it will effect how long it takes you to down Garalon.

VP gear has become a part of gearing up. More importantly it is a key method of gearing for midlvl to casual raiders or for players who have alts that they want to raid on. That has been a key feature of VP and JP since midway through WotLK a couple of years ago. It is now hidden behind a rep grind that is in fact more time intensive than leveling your toon from 85-90.. Any which way you look at it, its not game breaking or terrible but it is poor game design and either excludes players from VP gear which they have relied on for years, or else forces them to partake in a very tedious experience just to get access to it. Which is why you see very weak reductive arguments used to defend it.

/shrug
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#75 Nov 14 2012 at 7:34 PM Rating: Excellent
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I would like to take a moment to remind people that...

1). Klaxxi has VP Amulets at Honored. The rest of their gear (Belt, Legs) are Revered, which shouldn't take more than a week to attain.
2). You start at Honored with the Klaxxi on the first day you complete Dread Wastes non-daily quests.
3). Klaxxi is not gated behind Golden Lotus; you can easily do em both in a day.
4). Klaxxi also sell 463 weapons (same as Heroic drop/Crafted) at Exalted. Said weapons are ~330 DPS (for a 2-hander) upgrade over the Arena of Annihilation weapon.

Given the above, that's 3 VP pieces you can buy within a week of dinging Level 90. By the end of that week, you're probably pushing towards Honored with Golden Lotus, and IIRC at Honored you start getting more dailies and things to do that increases your rep gain and gives you access to more spawn points of the Guo-Lai Caches (that have rep items in them).

Edit for error fix. Bleh.

Edit 2:

Another interesting fact:

You start at barely Honored (or almost Honored depending on racial/guild perks) with the Shado-pan if you did everything in Kun-Lai Summit, Shado-Pan Monastery (I think those quests give SP rep?) and Townlong Steppes.

So when you get Honored with the Golden Lotus, you're already Honored with the Shado-pan by then if you did your Kun-Lai/Townlong quests.

Edited, Nov 14th 2012 8:51pm by Lyrailis
#76 Nov 14 2012 at 7:52 PM Rating: Excellent
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*is tired of editing the same post*

Lookie that, Shado-Pan sells VP Capes at Honored which you already have by doing quests or 1-2 days into their dailies.

So that's, what, 4 VP items you can buy within a week of dinging 90?

Edited, Nov 14th 2012 8:58pm by Lyrailis
#77 Nov 15 2012 at 2:00 AM Rating: Good
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@bodh: Um what? I haven't looked into every slot but valor gear = BiS?

Sha/Galleon drop higher level gear for at least some slots. Mogu'shan raid drops same ilevel in normal mode + recipes for 496 gear in normal mode too. HoF and Terrace drop higher ilevel gear in normal mode and only 6 ilevel below in LFR.
How is my statement completely detached from reality? Even if the 489 gear you buy for VP has slightly better stat allocation than the 496 gear that can be acquired via three* other means by now, for whom does that matter? Right, for hardcore progression raiders. The people you yourself said won't be needing it anyway because they have HM gear.
So no, I won't throw that argument out of the window.
Normal raiding Bob (me for instance) doesn't care if the 489 neck piece from Klaxxi has 100 DPS more (theoretically) than the 489 neck piece that just dropped of a boss. I really don't see your concern here.

As far as enrage timers are concerned, sure, every upgrade helps. But you have so much crucial movement in this tier. And so many people ******** that up. I can't speak for other raids but the biggest problem for my guild is not that we hit Enrage at 10% boss health but that people die to stupid sh*t at 90% boss health. And that won't be mitigated by some gear upgrades but only if they and I learn do properly dodge stuff. Mostly three/four of "they". But since I really like them, I gladly put up with some extra wipes on every mechanic.

Maybe this PvE progression route is inferior to last expansions. But I for one prefer it to having to run HC dungeons with PUGs over and over. At least I cannot be wiped by windowlickers when doing my dailies. And it does NOT cost more time to reach the same result.


*
1) world boss drops
2) crafted gear
3) HoF + Terrace raid

Edited, Nov 15th 2012 3:02am by TherealLogros
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#78 Nov 15 2012 at 2:19 AM Rating: Excellent
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I think this is relevant to this discussion.
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Wow, you've got an awesome writing style.! I really dig the narrator's back story, humor, sarcasm, and the plethora of pop culture references. Altogether a refreshingly different RotR journal (not that I don't like the more traditional ones, mind you).

#79 Nov 15 2012 at 7:26 AM Rating: Excellent
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The One and Only Poldaran wrote:
I think this is relevant to this discussion.


That comic is very true on a lot of things.

Such a short comic filled with such good ideas.

A "Daily" quest doesn't have to be done "Daily", you know.

Do em 2-3 times a week or something. Heck, I got a blacksmith who I'm doing Klaxxi and Golden Lotus for extra motes and money here-and-there when the mood strikes me and he's more than 50% towards Revered with the Klaxxi. And he finished his Dread Wastes quests, what, 3 weeks ago?

He's pushing 900VP just from doing dailies and I wasn't even counting (after I noticed the neck was only Honored, I was like "well, how many does he have? Oh, 890? He's almost there already!"

Though I might wait and buy the legs instead, not sure what I'll do yet.
#80 Nov 15 2012 at 1:53 PM Rating: Excellent
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Here's a thought: Raid bosses (normal/heroic) drop a new currency - Thingy of Sha Something. All raid-quality VP pieces are recast to: no reputation requirement, VP cost stays the same, also cost 25 thingies. They are still sold by faction vendors and reputation /bonuses/ apply, so there is a tangible benefit to doing the dailies as well as the raids. But it clarifies "you should primarily gear up through raid drops - VP gear is a consolation prize to help you start the next tier properly".

Non-raiders don't need raid-quality gear for their day-by-day business, their VP sink is the cheaper heroic-quality gear and pets/mounts/crafting.
#81 Nov 15 2012 at 6:26 PM Rating: Excellent
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TherealLogros wrote:
@bodh: Um what? I haven't looked into every slot but valor gear = BiS?


ilvl does not always equate BiS.

Look at the trinket off Heroic Algalon, superior to HM ICC trinkets for Paladins. If you look at loot tables w/o heroics in the mix, there will be times when due to stat caps, or secondary stat value having a higher beneficial value that choosing a slightly lower ilvl might provide better results. This has been true for a long, long time (Holy Light Libram and downranking in TBC anyone?) If I had to choose between a 489 with Mastery as a primary stat vs 497 with crit there might be some argument based on gem slot on which way I go. This is even more important with classes that have to hit soft caps or hard caps like +hit %.

As for PvE progression, I think it would be faulty to say in general that it is inferior. Players have JP, 5 mans, Scenarios, pvp & questing to get LFR ready, so there are multiple paths to get raid ready. Once you are raid ready you have LFR, world bosses and heroic 5 mans to keep gearing up. Then the raids themselves which at normal mode aren't as tightly tuned as TBC but probably the best since Ulduar in terms of actual content at normal level. I am really enjoying PvE & content and gearing isn't insane.

My only complaint is that gear that has never had a restriction other than point caps and weekly caps is now behind a very tedious and absolutely mandatory grind that as mentioned is more time consuming than the leveling itself. This effects alts, and the "token" effort /obviouspun to fix it in 5.1 is not really a fix. It can be ignored, but it is hard to because despite claims that a) it only matters for progression and b) it will be outgeared soon enough so quit ******** are both deeply flawed arguments that don't address the poor game design and aren't actually true to begin with.

Also another good read, the wall of text that is quoted from a player in the middle is pretty relevant.

http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/244854-how-feedback-works-and-why-it-matters/
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#82 Nov 15 2012 at 6:29 PM Rating: Excellent
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ElMuneco wrote:
Here's a thought: Raid bosses (normal/heroic) drop a new currency - Thingy of Sha Something. All raid-quality VP pieces are recast to: no reputation requirement, VP cost stays the same, also cost 25 thingies. They are still sold by faction vendors and reputation /bonuses/ apply, so there is a tangible benefit to doing the dailies as well as the raids. But it clarifies "you should primarily gear up through raid drops - VP gear is a consolation prize to help you start the next tier properly".

Non-raiders don't need raid-quality gear for their day-by-day business, their VP sink is the cheaper heroic-quality gear and pets/mounts/crafting.


So basically, you want to turn this back to BC/Wrath/Cata style where you can't progress your character past Heroics at all?

Try looking at the game from the eyes of a non-raider -- once they get Heroic gear, they're done. There's nothing else they can do _but_ raid. Sure, there's LFR, but with the ridiculously low chance of getting anything from LFR and the fact you can only really do it once a week, LFR isn't really considered "Content". I always saw LFR as something casuals can do "just once to see the lore/locations/bosses" rather than any serious venue for gearing your character up.

I think they're onto something with MoP and allowing people to put in lots of hours to buy VP gear from Daily Quests -- it takes a lot longer game-play time to gear by doing Dailies than it does gearing by Raids, but it is still possible and it gives the non-raiders something to do.

The only flaw to the system is that it forces raiders to do dailies if they want that gear, but meh. Serious raiders would already be doing these dailies just like they did the dailies/rep grinds in the past expansions. Serious raiders used Tabards _and_ Dailies to get done ASAP.

I like this new system; we just gotta iron the kinks out of it. Suddenly taking away VP gear from non-raiders is only going to **** a lot of players off. And don't go saying "They don't need that gear", because neither do raiders. Normal MSV was designed to be do-able at 463 I-level. You don't NEED those 489s either unless you're going after HoF or Terrace... but then, that's what MSV is for -- you're supposed to gear up in there first.

Edited, Nov 15th 2012 7:31pm by Lyrailis
#83 Nov 15 2012 at 6:39 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
My only complaint is that gear that has never had a restriction other than point caps and weekly caps is now behind a very tedious and absolutely mandatory grind that as mentioned is more time consuming than the leveling itself. This effects alts, and the "token" effort /obviouspun to fix it in 5.1 is not really a fix. It can be ignored, but it is hard to because despite claims that a) it only matters for progression and b) it will be outgeared soon enough so quit ******** are both deeply flawed arguments that don't address the poor game design and aren't actually true to begin with.


The 5.1 adjustment will not fix everyone's complaints, but as someone who has Tillers exalted on an alt, who is 3 days away from getting an alt Revered with the Klaxxi and also someone who almost has Honored with the Golden Lotus, I'm stoked with the idea of getting double rep, as it will be MUCH faster, especially for alts who have never done Dread Wastes before.

Just think about the Klaxxi and Shado-Pan for a second: JUST clearing Dread Wastes gets you a little into Honored with the Klaxxi, right?

That's 3000 + 6000 + a little more rep, we'll say 9,000 rep.

This means that you'll be 9000/12000 towards Revered (You'll get 18k instead of 9k) on an alt that has never done Dread Wastes before. God, that's TWO DAYS away from Revered and being able to buy the VP gear from them after 5.1 Tokens.

You're telling me that two days to get an alt Revered with Klaxxi to buy VP stuff is "too much of a grind" for an alt?

How about the Shado-Pan? Right now, without the dungeon and a few breadcrumb quests, my non-human has roughly 4,000 into Friendly. That's 7,000 Rep gained with them total. After the 5.1 Patch, an alt that has never done anything with the Shado-Pan will be Honored + 3,000 rep before they do a single daily (the two dungeon quests give 500 each, so they'd be Honored + 5,000 towards Revered. That's almost halfway. Without a single daily done). AND, the dailies will give twice as much, too. I'd imagine it'd take less than a week to get an alt from 0 to Revered with the Shado-Pan once you get Golden Lotus to Honored.

Oh, and Golden Lotus?

The first day gets you just shy of Friendly. That's ~2800 Rep. The First Day will now put you at Friendly + 2,000 rep towards Honored in 5.1 for an alt that has never done GL before. Since each day gives ~1100-1200 rep, you're looking at 2-3 days until you reach Honored with Golden Lotus. You could easily start Golden Lotus and then be Honored with them ~3 days later.

Edited, Nov 15th 2012 7:43pm by Lyrailis
#84 Nov 15 2012 at 7:45 PM Rating: Good
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Sounds like a pretty sweet deal.

All you have to do is clear two zones you don't fully need and do a couple days worth of dailies to get access to 2 factions. Then grind out another faction for a couple of weeks to gain access to another one to grind. While you are grinding those if you level up a toon, you can use a token to make it so you only have to do like half the grind on that toon to get access to the same thing.

This is obviously the single best feature of the expansion...
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#85 Nov 15 2012 at 7:48 PM Rating: Good
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bodhisattva wrote:
Sounds like a pretty sweet deal.

All you have to do is clear two zones you don't fully need and do a couple days worth of dailies to get access to 2 factions. Then grind out another faction for a couple of weeks to gain access to another one to grind. While you are grinding those if you level up a toon, you can use a token to make it so you only have to do like half the grind on that toon to get access to the same thing.

This is obviously the single best feature of the expansion...


I don't know about you, but I found that to get to Level 90, I found it pretty much mandatory to do most of Kun-Lai Summit and Townlong Steppes.

I suppose I could have done more dungeons, but I hate waiting on DPS Queues.

And God Forbid you do a little work with an alt before hauling their **** into Heroics or Raids, eh? Maybe the forced grind will actually cause players to know their class (at least DPS) before they get into a dungeon?

Some of those dailies require at least a little knowledge of boss-like mechanics and actually playing your class.

I think it is a good thing that you need to take your class out and do a bunch of content. Heck, I hadn't touched an Arms Warrior since Wrath. I had NO idea what the heck I was doing when my warrior dinged 90.

A few days and some dailies later, I'm getting the hang of it. If it weren't for me needing to do dailies on her, I'd been that scrub doing less than half of my intended DPS while I fumble with learning the class.
#86 Nov 15 2012 at 7:55 PM Rating: Excellent
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You do not need to know how to play your class in order to complete dailies.

Example, me playing Ret while doing dailies. I am the single worst player to play ret in the history of WoW. Ignore mechanics, wait for instant heal to pop & keep on trucking.
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#87 Nov 15 2012 at 8:07 PM Rating: Excellent
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bodhisattva wrote:
You do not need to know how to play your class in order to complete dailies.

Example, me playing Ret while doing dailies. I am the single worst player to play ret in the history of WoW. Ignore mechanics, wait for instant heal to pop & keep on trucking.


Try walking up to Vicejaw, and ignore his mechanics. Or how about that wolf? Let him jump ontop of you. Or that Wind Elemental. Go ahead and take a wild ride on the tornados. And then there's those days you have to fight the behemoth. Not avoiding his stomps will get you killed even with WoG, as it does at least 60% of your health in damage.

Then lemme know if your WoG heals you through that.

Edited, Nov 15th 2012 9:14pm by Lyrailis
#88 Nov 15 2012 at 8:42 PM Rating: Decent
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All ignored, all survived.

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#89 Nov 15 2012 at 9:04 PM Rating: Excellent
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bodhisattva wrote:
All ignored, all survived.



Then you're either in gear so good that you don't NEED those VP pieces, or you're not as bad as you let on to be, OR you weren't "Ignoring" the mechanics.

Good God, letting that wolf jump ontop of you does at least 75% of your health in damage and it takes at least 5 full-powered WoG to recover from that as a Ret. It takes a lot longer for the wolf to jump again than it does for you to get 3HoPo WoG 5 times unless you get lucky with Chain Procs of Divine Purpose.

Vicejaw? You ignored his mechanics? How, exactly, seeing that he's invincible unless you get him to upchuck unless you have someone keeping aggro so you can hit him in the back? And if you're making him upchuck, you're not ignoring his mechanics.

And the Tornadoes? Um, yeah. Staying in one of those kills you in <10 seconds. With or without Divine Purpose-fueled WoGs.
#90 Nov 15 2012 at 10:45 PM Rating: Excellent
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Eh, I kind of know what he means. I ignore mechanics when I play my hunter. I just shoot things and stuff dies.
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#91 Nov 15 2012 at 10:58 PM Rating: Excellent
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the obvious answer is that I died, got really upset, asked my mom for a hotpocket and then started posting in this thread.

But really, divine shield.
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#92 Nov 16 2012 at 9:18 AM Rating: Good
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Kirsanov wrote:
'You only need to do 13 dailies per day to cap your coins for the week.'


It's 13 coins, which means abou 7 dailies per day. If you avoid the ones that take too long you are done pretty fast. Heck, even just tillers+anglers will prolly net you enough coins.
#93 Nov 16 2012 at 10:49 AM Rating: Excellent
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bodhisattva wrote:
I am the single worst player to play ret in the history of WoW.
You are way out on a limb here, you've never seen me play ret. I've been known to cast heals on MoBs while playing ret as a "They'll never expect this!" strategy.




(No one expects the Spanish Inquisition!)

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#94 Nov 16 2012 at 11:38 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
ilvl does not always equate BiS.

Look at the trinket off Heroic Algalon, superior to HM ICC trinkets for Paladins.


Also see: all of vanilla for casters.
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#95 Nov 16 2012 at 9:16 PM Rating: Default
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Daily quests are a cheap substitute for truly engaging content and activities.

"We can't really think of any kind of decent solo content so we're going to put a TON of monotonous repeatable quests in the game."

And I love their reasoning too "Well, we removed feature X because it was 'unfun' so we're going to add 10 times more of feature Y with the same unfunness but since it's named something else we'll defend it as 'fun'."
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#97 Nov 16 2012 at 10:11 PM Rating: Good
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ekaterinodar wrote:
Daily quests are a cheap substitute for truly engaging content and activities.

"We can't really think of any kind of decent solo content so we're going to put a TON of monotonous repeatable quests in the game."

And I love their reasoning too "Well, we removed feature X because it was 'unfun' so we're going to add 10 times more of feature Y with the same unfunness but since it's named something else we'll defend it as 'fun'."


Care to add what they could have put in the game that would appeal to a wide variety of people that would be not only a time sink but a money generator?
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#98 Nov 16 2012 at 10:17 PM Rating: Excellent
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Criminy wrote:
ekaterinodar wrote:
Daily quests are a cheap substitute for truly engaging content and activities.

"We can't really think of any kind of decent solo content so we're going to put a TON of monotonous repeatable quests in the game."

And I love their reasoning too "Well, we removed feature X because it was 'unfun' so we're going to add 10 times more of feature Y with the same unfunness but since it's named something else we'll defend it as 'fun'."


Care to add what they could have put in the game that would appeal to a wide variety of people that would be not only a time sink but a money generator?


They tried that with Scenarios.

A lot of people laughed at them. The "Elite" (or those who claim they are) said that the scenarios were too easy (while forgetting that Scenarios were aimed at casuals) while the casuals said "They're not rewarding enough" while forgetting that Scenarios are something you're supposed to be able to Q up for, get into in less than 5 min since you don't need tank/heals. Apparently they think something so easy should be dropping Heroic-level gear left-and-right.

I will admit, though 1 item every ~5 bags (which will oftentimes be the wrong type of item anyways) is a little low, but yet at the same time, if you get the right scenario (Theramore!) you can get other things. Theramore, for example, is nice for Motes and Cloth if you're a tailor. You just gotta somehow convince people to actually loot the bodies so you can take the extra cloth left behind.

But for most of all, the Scenarios were supposed to be there for FUN, right?

Well, apparently, if it doesn't give you purples, it isn't fun in a lot of peoples' eyes or something. *shrugs* I enjoyed them all the same. Get a few extra valor per day by doing something that only takes 15min and have a chance at maybe getting a 463. Win-win, I think.
#99 Nov 16 2012 at 10:57 PM Rating: Good
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"commitment" = doing the same boring sh*t over and over
#100 Nov 17 2012 at 12:59 PM Rating: Decent
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Married too eh?
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#101 Nov 17 2012 at 2:23 PM Rating: Excellent
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Criminy wrote:
ekaterinodar wrote:
Daily quests are a cheap substitute for truly engaging content and activities.

"We can't really think of any kind of decent solo content so we're going to put a TON of monotonous repeatable quests in the game."

And I love their reasoning too "Well, we removed feature X because it was 'unfun' so we're going to add 10 times more of feature Y with the same unfunness but since it's named something else we'll defend it as 'fun'."


Care to add what they could have put in the game that would appeal to a wide variety of people that would be not only a time sink but a money generator?


Sure, I'll shoot.

Put mounts, pets and a few token goodies behind rep grinds. Keep access to Valour Gear away from the rep grind barrier.

Cap Valour Points, both weekly and an overall cap as we currently see.

Allow valour points to be earned via daily quests, dungeons, scenarios & LFR to allow for a myriad of available path to hit your weekly requirements to max. Have the math work out to 1.5 to 1.25 pieces of gear per week, perhaps big ticket items like chest & legs be worth 1 & half weeks grind. Earning VP gear, or VP to upgrade gear in 5.1 will then mirror Conquest Points, with a little more variety. The rep & rep bonuses are still there for players who enjoy the content. Also players who dislike one particular part of PvE have multiple ways to earn VP.

/shrug
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Bode - 100 Holy Paladin - Lightbringer
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