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#1 Oct 18 2012 at 6:13 PM Rating: Good
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Rather than to derail the thread about the Razer mice, I figured it'd probably be best to continue that conversation over here, instead.

So, I'll start off by quoting Theo and Mazra from that thread:

Theophany wrote:
It's going to be hilarious how badly I get karma-bombed, but you're just bad, in this case.

I don't move my hand off of my WASD ever in PvP. With a MX518, I have 40 keybinds available to me (available to me in PvP is if I can push it in a tenth of a second in response to something someone else does), which is more than enough for rogue and hunter, the two classes I play.

That gives me enough keybinds that I have room for stuff like Focus macros (focus Blind, focus Silence Shot, focus Master's Call, etc) as well as my normal abilities.

You're doing it wrong.

For clarity, I have about 60 keybinds, it's just that the other 20 aren't able to be pushed within a tenth of a second in PvP.


Mazra wrote:
Oh, hell no. What're you up to? Just put your right hand on the mouse and the left hand on WASD. Hold down RMB and move the mouse to change your direction. Use WS to move forward/backward and AD to strafe left/right (while holding RMB). With your left hand, you also have access to:

Q, E, Z, X, C, V, F, R, T
1-5
Shift
Alt
Ctrl

If you need more keybinds than that, you're playing a Hunter or Warlock (or SWTOR) and I feel your pain. Time to prioritize then.

I take it you're a keyboard turner and/or clicker trying to optimize your stuff. Trust me... stick to WASD. Anything else is clunky and by far less efficient. It'll take some time to adjust to it, and it will feel horrible for a while, but once muscle memory kicks in, you'll look back on your time caressing those arrow keys and laugh. The only time I'm not holding down RMB in MMORPGs is when I have to right-click vendors and quest givers. Or if I get an itch and have to scratch it while moving out of fire.


See, the problem isn't trying to find enough keybinds (in fact, having 40+ of them would cause a sort of overload/distraction problem); the problem is me stumbling over things because I'm trying to simultaneously learn two whole new ways of doing things at the same time.

For years, I played FFXI and another MMORPG (Istaria) that played exactly like FFXI did -- both made very little use of the mouse at all, and you did everything with the arrow, tab, and enter keys.

I played those MMORPGs over a few years and I just got used to arrow key movement/turning.

Now, I've never debated, nor argued that mouse-turning isn't better; I know it is better and I've tried it.. I just can't seem to find "the trick" to get myself to learn it without causing massive distractions and loss of performance because it feels so weird.

I might try again here after I get things calmed down (I've been in a rush to get characters on 90 for the HH), but I'm not sure if I'll do any better this time or not. I really do want to learn so I can actually function in PvP (especially now that they've claimed that they improved PvP with the various changes) and get a little better at Heroics/Scenarios/LFR. I have no real plans of joining a raiding guild, but who knows someday I might do a PUG normal or something.

I'm trying.. but I just can't seem to 'get it'... not sure why. It is probably the *years* of playing FFXI and Istaria, that has arrow keys burned so deep in my muscle memory that anything else feels so weird.

Edited, Oct 18th 2012 8:13pm by Lyrailis
#2 Oct 18 2012 at 7:17 PM Rating: Good
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I have been using Clique & Grid since T5 in TBC. So I use my keyboard to move like a pro.

That being said, all the terrible bottom end trash players who use their "S" key to avoid AOE need to have their internet shut off or be stuck in LFR.
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#3 Oct 18 2012 at 7:34 PM Rating: Good
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bodhisattva wrote:
I have been using Clique & Grid since T5 in TBC. So I use my keyboard to move like a pro.

That being said, all the terrible bottom end trash players who use their "S" key to avoid AOE need to have their internet shut off or be stuck in LFR.


S, you mean, the Move Backward key?

People actually do that?

I'm a keyboard turner as I mentioned before and I don't even do that. Well. Some situations it can work, but most not usually. You take minimum 5 ticks of whatever the AoE is before you finally move out of it.

I did, however, manage to give a mouse-turner trouble in a PvP battle once. He had trouble getting behind me because I kept using a combination of Backwards+Turn and Forward+Turn in unpredictable patterns. He was probably going "WTF is this guy doing!?"

Though it kinda made it hard for me to hit him, he had trouble hitting me at the same time which is what I was trying to do; I was merely trying to buy time. Still thought it was kinda funny that I gave him that much trouble.

My point is, the S key has its place (well for me that's the down arrow as my right hand does movement).

Oh, and I forgot to reply to a part of Mazra's post: I rarely click anything unless I'm targeting a group member. In Scenarios, I've been hovering the mouse cursor near the nameplates of my group members and I'll quick click the mouse on one of them when I need to drop a heal on them. Otherwise, I click nothing during battle. I can't imagine someone clicking melee ability buttons, I just can't picture how that could possibly work. I'm not saying it is bad or good, I just can't picture it being effective, given you have to physically move the cursor between buttons, especially with classes that have shorter GCDs like Rogues and Cat Druids.
#4 Oct 19 2012 at 12:44 AM Rating: Good
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The best way is to honestly just force yourself to play that way. I was much the same until TBC (when arena started), and then I had to learn how to get really good at it.

I did it by basically remapping my keybinds so that even if I switched to keyboard turning, my keybinds were set up for mouse turning.

Here's how I set my keybinds up (luckily I still have kinda the same setup):

Screenshot

So basically, the first thing you're going to do is unbind everything on your mouse as the game uses it except for the two main buttons.

Using the mouse wheel, you have two binds, and then three modifiers for each bind. Example:

Mousewheel up = gouge
Mousewheel down = stealth
Shift-Mousewheel up = kick
Shift-Mousewheel down = focus kick
Alt-Mousewheel up = Rupture
Alt-Mousewheel down = Eviscerate

And on and on. You can do that for literally every button, since your pinky and thumb can reach all of the modifier keys exceptionally easily.

The easiest keys to bind on are:

1-5, obviously.
Mousewheel and mouse buttons (I rebind the two on the top and bottom of the wheel to Page Up and Page Down for more binds).
`, F, G, and V.

For instance on my rogue, my `, F, G, and V are:

` = Shiv
Shift-` = focus Shiv
F = Blind
Shift-F = focus Blind
G = Recuperate
V = Fan of Knives
Shift-V = Smoke Bomb

Keybinding is a process. It's not just "oh I'll put that there, whatever!" I spend about 20-30 minutes on every 80+ character fine-tuning my keybind job at a minimum before I'm happy.

I strongly recommend using a shift variant theme for focus macros. Having the main use be the normal key bind, then just add shift for a focus version, like my Blind and Shiv on my rogue. It just makes it easier.

I'm happy to give more tips, but mostly it's just doing it. Quest with it for a week and force yourself to do it because it will just make you better at computer games in general.

Oh, and use the num pad, 6 through =, and T, Y, U, I, O, etc for keybinds you don't normally use. On my hunter I use T, Y, U, I, and O for my pet summons, [ for dismiss pet, and ] for tame beast. 6 though = are my Master's Call to teammates in arena macros.

Edited, Oct 18th 2012 11:45pm by Theophany
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#5 Oct 19 2012 at 9:23 AM Rating: Good
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Lyrailis wrote:
Otherwise, I click nothing during battle. I can't imagine someone clicking melee ability buttons, I just can't picture how that could possibly work.


Ah, so you're a pureblood keyboard user. The problem is then using only one hand to navigate the keyboard while using your other hand exclusively for the mouse? The core of the issue is that you need to learn how to use your right (or left, if you're left-handed) hand for the mouse and not the arrow keys.

Lyrailis wrote:
I'm trying.. but I just can't seem to 'get it'... not sure why. It is probably the *years* of playing FFXI and Istaria, that has arrow keys burned so deep in my muscle memory that anything else feels so weird.


This is true. If someone told me to use the arrow keys for moving around, it would feel horrible for me as well. Muscle memory comes with repetition, though, so you just have to keep at it. Like I said, it will feel clunky and horribly inefficient for a long time, but once you've memorized (subconsciously) where the buttons are located and which buttons do what, it will become as natural as walking.

I mean, think about all the small adjustments the muscles in your legs and feet have to make while you're walking, or even standing, to prevent you from falling over. When kids first learn to walk, they look like they were never meant to do so in the first place. With enough repetition, however, they end up being able to navigate on those two limbs like it's the most natural thing in the world.

Like with walking, you just have to start with baby steps when it comes to muscle memory. When you're out doing dailies or whatever, try to force yourself to use the mouse and WASD keys for movement. You'll mess up once in a while and every fiber in your body will tell you to stop this nonsense and go back to how you used to do it, but you have to fight that urge. If you want to make it serious, go to the keybindings and unbind the arrow keys so you don't accidentally start using them when things heat up.

Once you've learned to use the mouse for movement while doing dailies, run some dungeons where you might find yourself in the heat of the battle. This is where you're most likely to slip into old habits, so I suggest training mouse-movement a lot before you do it. You might end up dying and the group might end up wiping because of you, but who cares? We're trying to modify your behavior on a subconscious level here. Petty repair bills do not concern us!

Anyway, keep at it. If it's any consolation, we all had to learn it at some point. Smiley: smile

Edited, Oct 19th 2012 5:26pm by Mazra
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#6 Oct 19 2012 at 4:53 PM Rating: Good
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I started off playing FFXI so many years ago, but somehow, moving with the mouse came naturally to me. I basically keybind everything to 1-6 with alt, shift, and control modifiers to give me 24 keybinds. I haven't found a class yet that requires more than that.

I use the mouse for all movement except strafing because I haven't found a way I'm comfortable with yet to bind that to the mouse.
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#7 Oct 19 2012 at 5:18 PM Rating: Good
I played FFXI for years as well, but I guess the difference with me when coming to WoW is I played FFXI on the ps2. Even now when I pop back in every 3-6 months, I HAVE to have a ps2-PC controller. When I came to WoW I HAD to learn how to play on the keyboard, and using the mouse with it just fell into place.

If you really want to get it down, do as Mazra said, unbind the arrow keys. Then when you hit them, you go "ugh crap nothing is happening!" and that part in your brain steps forward and goes "Duh! Grab that mouse!"
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