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Should Blizzard sell level 80? Follow

#27 Jun 15 2012 at 7:48 PM Rating: Excellent
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I'm on Maz's side so far.

The idea that somehow, leveling through old content trains the player to perform in current content is one of those widely cited theories that may be little more than a dream. It is cited as if it is a fact, but consider:

Scrolls of Resurrection already allow a direct boost to 80.

Recruit a Friend also allows one to jump over large chunks of leveling.

Regardless of TOS/EULA/Hilda, there are people who pay to power level. They just don't pay Blizzard and feed the hackers/gold sellers.

Anyone who has taken a toon to level cap knows the drill. They know how to snooze through PUGs and BGs or get run through instances.

Remember all those SoRs? Yeah, that guy has characters that he might have been good with -- several expansions ago. Things changed.

None of those things train a player for current content at level cap. On the other hand, we have a new expansion about to hit. A boost to 80 will soon mean that you're going to start at the end of WotLK content and will have to level through Cata and MoP to hit end game. That is roughly on par with starting at level 60 today. If you don't learn the basics of not standing in the fire and such through two expansions of relatively current design, a flash tour of a few more levels of solo questing isn't going to change your performance in current instances.

If you have proof to the contrary, let's see it. Otherwise, as Maz said, nubcakes are going to be nubcakes. Apologies, no slight intended, but one of the posters bringing up the fear of unskilled nubcakes was, not that long ago, a member of that class. I mention this, not as a criticism, but as a real life example of the learning curve. This was someone who ground through to at least TBC content on a couple of characters and still hit Cata with a rather vague idea of how to even gear up for current content. Again, I stress that I'm bringing this up to show how even a fairly diligent player, one who takes the time to go to a forum and ask questions, does not necessarily gain much of an understanding of end game at earlier levels.

Did some of us learn through the school of hard knocks on our way up? Yes, but that was back in the day, when those levels took us closer to end game. I'd go so far as to assert that slogging through 80 levels of content that is no longer particularly relevant to end game may be dull enough to encourage bad habits rather than developing good ones. On the other side of the balance, consider that this could thin out some of the dead weight in lower level PUGs and BGs. It would do so directly by giving players who are just going through the motions another option and indirectly by cutting down on the number of players who are actually just a toon being jumped through the hoops by a power leveling service. Why pay for a character that is open to hacking or bans when one can just go through a regular transaction to create a new character? From the community standpoint, do we really need to train people to expect to just sponge their way through the game, half AFK and mostly carried through content? Is that really a valuable lesson? Aren't those people some of the very ones that we're tired of encountering?

While I suspect that we're going to encounter lazy, greedy, foolish or rude players no matter what options the game offers, I don't really see RAW's proposal making anything worse.
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#28 Jun 15 2012 at 8:50 PM Rating: Excellent
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Excellent closing statement, Rhode.

Has the jury reached a verdict? Yes, they have, my honor. What say ye or whatever? In the case of nubcakes can learn vs **** no, the unofficial Zam jury finds that Rhode gets full custody.

Wait, I may have mixed several legal dramas together there. I think there was a bit of Judging Amy and Boston Legal in there, with a smidge of A Few Good Men.

Who needs law school when you've got cable TV, right?

Edited, Jun 16th 2012 4:51am by Mazra
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#29 Jun 15 2012 at 9:40 PM Rating: Excellent
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Mazra wrote:
Excellent closing statement, Rhode.

Has the jury reached a verdict? Yes, they have, my honor. What say ye or whatever? In the case of nubcakes can learn vs **** no, the unofficial Zam jury finds that Rhode gets full custody.

Wait, I may have mixed several legal dramas together there. I think there was a bit of Judging Amy and Boston Legal in there, with a smidge of A Few Good Men.

Who needs law school when you've got cable TV, right?

Edited, Jun 16th 2012 4:51am by Mazra


What's a legal drama without the obligatory...

OBJECTION!!!!!!!!

I said basically the same thing several posts ago, though in not such a thorough manner. lol.

But then, I'm just saying this as an excuse to add Phoenix Wright into this.
#30 Jun 19 2012 at 1:23 PM Rating: Decent
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I don't know how many characters you've taken to the cap, but I've taken my share and even with the heirlooms and guild perks, it's a lot of freakin' experience points needed. 1-58 is easy enough. When you hit Outland, though, it's like running face-first into a brick wall. And then you run into another when you get to Northrend. Except this time the brick wall is coming at you as well. Cataclysm leveling is almost worse, because it's so **** linear, once you've leveled through it all, it's the same ******* crap you have to go through again.


Iv gotten 9 characters to lvl cap and played and deleted a bunch over the years, most of them without any guild perks. Now a days outland is no brick wall i only had to do 3 zones in Outland to hit 68 and that didnt take more then 3 or 4 days to get though that. Northrend was a little longer but again not painful in the least with everything nerfed its all solo-able. Granted cata does take the longest to lvl though but that's part of having current content you not supposed to be able to lvl quickly(though some do).

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Nubcakes are going to be nubcakes, regardless of how much time they spend leveling or playing their character.


this is mostly true but if they get to end game content and still don't know what they are doing they will be kicked out of dungeon groups so that people can hopefully get someone better. This is what early content is for, if a person is at least semi intelligent they will at least listen to more experienced players at those lower lvls taking note of the equipment they should be wearing and possibly the rotation they should be working on. IF they are a true nubcake then they will find very few group to do things with.(or maybe im just mean when i kick the ret Pally tank or the hunter in str gear)

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All too true. Allowing the fear of idiots to become a controlling design feature tends to inconvenience those who are not idiots, while doing little to rein in the idiots themselves.


I dont think its the fear of idiots(though might be part of it), I just believe that one should have at least a basic grasp of the game before getting a "free" lvl 80. The SCR is only useable for those who have played the game before , and yes those people might not have played in a while but at least they played the game at some point. and with the RAF you may be lvling really fast but your still experiencing content in some degree. Even if you dont learn everything doing these you still get some experience with your character. Basically im thinking along the lines of the death knights. You still have to have lvled a previous toon up to a certain point before getting a free lvl 55. It should be the same with a new person to the game they should not be able to just skip all the original content for the first time. Going though the 1-80 zonse you get to learn where places are and as i said hopefully how to have at least a basic concept of the toon you are playing.
#31 Jun 19 2012 at 2:22 PM Rating: Excellent
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Rhodekylle wrote:
I'm on Maz's side so far.

The idea that somehow, leveling through old content trains the player to perform in current content is one of those widely cited theories that may be little more than a dream.


Maybe it's just the nostalgia, and kind of along some of your lines of thought I think, but I feel this was something that used to be more of the case 5-6 years ago. Not that leveling content was ever massively difficult or anything. I remember learning a lot as I went. I don't know what it's like these days I guess, you never really can start fresh again. Still sometimes it feels like that bar has been lowered to the point it's more or less irrelevant. In which case you do wonder what's the point of leveling content (well besides the obvious entertainment factor) if it isn't really teaching you how to play.

So you have a solo game that isn't really challenging. PvP is going to be a complete joke your first time though, oldies in heirloom gear puts the bar too far the other direction IMO. You're just going to get farmed in BGs without it. The 5 man content is something you'll get carried through as well. People there aren't really willing to help you for the most part. Far easier to carry or kick, besides what's the point of helping someone you'll never play with again? Cost-benefit analysis anyone?

Which makes me wonder what's the difference if someone wants to pay to level past a point? I mean as long as Blizzard gets the money they would have earned from a subscription (i.e. their payment for the time it would have taken to level through the content) does it really matter on their end? Should the rest of us even care if we really aren't reaping any benefits from having people do that content anyway?

Maybe I'm just cynical? Not like that would ever happen. Smiley: rolleyes

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Edited, Jun 19th 2012 1:23pm by someproteinguy
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#32 Jun 19 2012 at 3:34 PM Rating: Excellent
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I just believe that one should have at least a basic grasp of the game before getting a "free" lvl 80.


Smiley: oyvey I think you overlooked a key point in the initial proposal:

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Would you pay for a toon level 80 available to anyone who has an 85?


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#33 Jun 20 2012 at 3:40 AM Rating: Excellent
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Jallil wrote:
Iv gotten 9 characters to lvl cap and played and deleted a bunch over the years, most of them without any guild perks. Now a days outland is no brick wall i only had to do 3 zones in Outland to hit 68 and that didnt take more then 3 or 4 days to get though that. Northrend was a little longer but again not painful in the least with everything nerfed its all solo-able. Granted cata does take the longest to lvl though but that's part of having current content you not supposed to be able to lvl quickly(though some do).


When I referred to Outland and Northrend as being brick walls, I wasn't so much talking about the speed.

When you get to Outland, you have one - ONE - zone to choose from. No matter how many times you've leveled through Outland, all new characters have to go through Hellfire Peninsula. The problem being that after a couple of times, Hellfire Peninsula starts to get boring. So you spice up the questing with some dungeon runs and being ganked in battlegrounds. The experience gain from doing this far surpasses the experience gain you get while questing in Hellfire Peninsula, so you end up leveling too fast compared to the number of quests you've done.

The last two characters I took through Outland were ready to go to Northrend by the time they left Hellfire Peninsula. Once you arrive in Northrend, it's the same thing all over again, except there you get to choose from two zones.

I can take a character through Outland in a day. The problem is, if I do this, I'll only ever play in Hellfire Peninsula. I could go level up in another zone while halfway through Hellfire Peninsula, but that would be slower.

Tell me, if you were to stand on hot coals, would you rather stand there for five seconds, or ten seconds with a glass of water in your hand? I'd choose five seconds. I can always get a glass of water once my feet aren't on fire anymore.
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#34 Jun 20 2012 at 6:18 AM Rating: Good
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Mazra wrote:
When you get to Outland, you have one - ONE - zone to choose from. No matter how many times you've leveled through Outland, all new characters have to go through Hellfire Peninsula.
Assuming you hit there at 58. Smack out a couple dungeons to get the 58-60 gap and you can always go straight to Zangarmarsh.
#35 Jun 20 2012 at 6:39 AM Rating: Decent
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The One and Only Poldaran wrote:
Mazra wrote:
When you get to Outland, you have one - ONE - zone to choose from. No matter how many times you've leveled through Outland, all new characters have to go through Hellfire Peninsula.
Assuming you hit there at 58. Smack out a couple dungeons to get the 58-60 gap and you can always go straight to Zangarmarsh.
It start at 62 for quests in Zangarmarsh, I am currently 65 and only half way in Hellfire. I have full BOA and exp from guild perk, destroying the place.
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#36 Jun 20 2012 at 7:04 AM Rating: Good
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Unless they upped it, I skipped HFP the day TBC dropped. You can easily do quests at 60.

Edit: Many quests only require level 60. Some are available at 59.

Edited, Jun 20th 2012 7:08am by Poldaran
#37 Jun 20 2012 at 7:31 AM Rating: Decent
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The One and Only Poldaran wrote:
Unless they upped it, I skipped HFP the day TBC dropped. You can easily do quests at 60.

Edit: Many quests only require level 60. Some are available at 59.

Edited, Jun 20th 2012 7:08am by Poldaran
Yep, only half of them required 62. So i will reach 66 in Hellfire and go to Nagran until 68, leaving 5 zones untouched.
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#38 Jun 20 2012 at 12:14 PM Rating: Good
The One and Only Poldaran wrote:
Unless they upped it, I skipped HFP the day TBC dropped. You can easily do quests at 60.

Edit: Many quests only require level 60. Some are available at 59.

Edited, Jun 20th 2012 7:08am by Poldaran


Yup, that's what I usually do too. As it stands right now though, all of the toons I have except one, are in Northrend or level 85. I have no interest in leveling another toon, unless I decided to roll a monk. The one exception if my shockadin who is level 35ish. She's fun, but since I know I can't play shockadin at max level, I don't know if I'll ever get her up to max.
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#39 Jun 20 2012 at 3:17 PM Rating: Decent
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Labiarinth wrote:
I personally wouldn't pay.

It sounds like a TERRIBLE idea in that even more of the players running around would have no clue about how to use their toons.

And, unfortunately, yes I think people would pay and Blizzard would make (even more) money.

It's called "Jumping the shark".



Basically, this would be Blizzard sponsored power leveling. Do people buy power leveling services despite its danger? Yes. Would people buy power leveling directly from Blizzard without the risk of losing their account? Absolutely.

It's a terrible idea. Skipping straight to 80 makes as much sense as buying gold or power leveling. You have no business in end-game content if you haven't played the rest of the game. That's akin to telling someone who hasn't ever played soccer that they can play at the World Cup (slight over exaggeration, but you get the point.) It has nothing to do with elitism, and everything to do with common sense. Anything in life, even any game for entertainment, requires some time and effort and learning. End game content is meant for players who have gone through a learning experience. Having a bunch of players running around at 85/90 who have only played 10 levels of the game would be horrific to the game and the community. We'd see new expansions dumbed down to a starting level area would be completely unfair to all of us who are long beyond that level of play.

Does anyone else remember the day when expansions and later levels of the game meant MORE challenging? Because honestly, I'm missing that. I've spent 5 years playing the game. The new expansions shouldn't be easier than the starting areas. I'm not a hardcore raider. I've only killed a handful of bosses this entire expansion pack. But I actually put effort into my game play. If I wanted mindless entertainment, I would play Farmville.

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#40 Jun 20 2012 at 4:58 PM Rating: Good
Again, we're talking about this service being offered to people who already have one character at max level. 10 levels is more than enough time to learn how to play your character properly, once you already understand the basics of the game.
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#41 Jun 20 2012 at 7:47 PM Rating: Good
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ekaterinodar wrote:
It's a terrible idea. Skipping straight to 80 makes as much sense as buying gold or power leveling. You have no business in end-game content if you haven't played the rest of the game. That's akin to telling someone who hasn't ever played soccer that they can play at the World Cup (slight over exaggeration, but you get the point.) It has nothing to do with elitism, and everything to do with common sense. Anything in life, even any game for entertainment, requires some time and effort and learning. End game content is meant for players who have gone through a learning experience. Having a bunch of players running around at 85/90 who have only played 10 levels of the game would be horrific to the game and the community. We'd see new expansions dumbed down to a starting level area would be completely unfair to all of us who are long beyond that level of play.


A better analogy would be, someone that's already an athlete having to go back to little league (level up) before they could play in a rec league at the Y (typical 5-man pug). 5-man pugs aren't the World Cup of WoW end game; they wouldn't even equate to Major League Soccer.

I was just as annoyed as everyone else at DKs who were catapulted to level 60ish, given a whole host of new abilities, and jumping into BC dungeons to "tank". But there are plenty of people that level up entirely solo that have never used Defensive Stance/Bear Form and try to tank, or leveled in Ret/Feral/Shadow/Enhance and never cast a heal that wasn't targeting themselves. Plus, some relatively essential abilities aren't even acquired until after 80. Mastery, for 1. Just to pick on pallies, they don't get their Shield Wall until 85, their AoE heal is at 83, and Inquisition is at 81.
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#42 Jun 20 2012 at 10:40 PM Rating: Good
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Leveling up a character of the same class is one thing, leveling a completely different class is another. Just because you've been playing a rogue for 5 years doesn't mean you're ready to be playing a warrior tank without having learned how to play that class.

It's an MMO. You're suppose to level. You're suppose to play it. Blizzard makes money, making you replay this content. It is not in their best interest, or the playerbases best interest, to have people jumping 80 levels of learning a class. Recruit-A-Friend is bad enough. Running Cata dungeons with people who haven't played in 3 years who were granted levels by their friends is horrific. I shouldn't be helping teach a player the basics of WoW in a level 80 dungeon. I spent 80 levels learning how to play my class so I could play it. Its one thing to give hints and help. It's another completely to be allowing people to skip 50% or more of the game because they had a little money to spare.

If you want a game where you're instantly max level or close to it, MMO's are not for you.

We don't need to further trivialize lower content. Its dead enough as it is. What needs to be done is incentives and improvements to lower levels so that the experience is just as fun and rewarding as level 80. Blizzard is taking some excellent steps forward in this department by introducing cross realm zones, dungeon finder, and soon, scenario finder. It would also be great to increase the difficulty of dungeons so they don't feel like mindless AoE spam and grinds.

But giving the player base the option to surpass 80 levels of content will only hurt those who are trying to play the game legitimately, and further hurt them at 85/90 when they are stuck running heroics with people who have no idea what the heck they are doing because they thing playing a priest at 90 means they can play a warrior at 90 with only 10 levels of game play.

Honestly, if this feature was ever implemented, I would forbid its use in my guild. It's bad enough that the majority of WoW players don't even know what half their skills do and they HAVE had to go through those 85 levels. I wouldn't want to subject myself or any of my other guildies to players who think that money = experience.
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#43 Jun 20 2012 at 10:57 PM Rating: Excellent
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The only time I would be ok with it is if you already have a max level character of that specific class. For example I have 3 85 shamans. Lets say I want another shaman on a different server but fack me leveling is a chore in the fun zones. Allowing me to skip a lot of the tripe would be nice.

I agree with Ekaterindar said though.
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It's bad enough that the majority of WoW players don't even know what half their skills do and they HAVE had to go through those 85 levels.
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#44 Jun 20 2012 at 11:17 PM Rating: Excellent
Well, and that's why I like the idea of paying to skip 10 levels at a time. Granted, not everyone is as insightful as I am in knowing when I suck at a particular class/spec, but I think I'd do just fine skipping Outlands and Northrend. I don't mind doing the newer Vanilla content.

Also, once you learn how to play one type of role, similar classes/specs aren't too difficult to handle. I can play any caster dps and do decent at it. The rest of the roles, not so much. Tanking in lower level dungeons and healing are fine, but once you get to Cata it definitely gets trickier. Still, I know better than to try and tank or heal in a level 80+ dungeon when I don't know what I'm doing.

Edited, Jun 20th 2012 11:22pm by PigtailsOfDoom
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#45 Jun 21 2012 at 2:32 AM Rating: Good
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ekaterinodar wrote:
Leveling up a character of the same class is one thing, leveling a completely different class is another. Just because you've been playing a rogue for 5 years doesn't mean you're ready to be playing a warrior tank without having learned how to play that class.


Do you have any idea how many retarded level 85 warriors are out there? I'm talking window lickers of the finest quality.

Nubcakes will be nubcakes. Doesn't matter if you make them level up first.
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#46 Jun 21 2012 at 4:15 AM Rating: Good
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Mazra wrote:
I'm talking window lickers of the finest quality.

Spin to win!
#47 Jun 21 2012 at 3:10 PM Rating: Good
Mazra wrote:
I'm talking window lickers of the finest quality.


"Why yes, I would like three of your window lickers of the finest quality, to go, please."


Edited, Jun 21st 2012 5:10pm by IDrownFish
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#48RAWDEAL, Posted: Jun 21 2012 at 4:13 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Always + 1 comments, go away troll
#49 Jun 21 2012 at 4:22 PM Rating: Excellent
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RAWDEAL wrote:
IDrownFish of the Seven Seas wrote:


"Why yes, I would like three of your window lickers of the finest quality, to go, please."
Always + 1 comments, go away troll


Pot meet kettle.
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#50 Jun 21 2012 at 5:52 PM Rating: Good
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Criminy wrote:
RAWDEAL wrote:
IDrownFish of the Seven Seas wrote:


"Why yes, I would like three of your window lickers of the finest quality, to go, please."
Always + 1 comments, go away troll


Pot meet kettle.


Pwned.

Oh, and btw, +1.
#51 Jun 21 2012 at 6:04 PM Rating: Good
RAWDEAL wrote:
Always + 1 comments, go away troll


Oh no. My pride. It is so wounded.

Whatever. I'm going to take my own advice and put you on my ignore list. This is going to be the one and only time I really respond to your idiotic and inane trolling attempt. I look forward to not seeing your posts again.
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