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#27 Apr 26 2012 at 5:21 PM Rating: Decent
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In terms of story arc you had a WCIII, Frozen Throne and WoW from Vanilla to WotLK, So 2002 until 2010. When that story arc ended with the defeat of Arthas there was a concern that players may have felt they beat the game. For a game which survives on subscriptions that is a bad thing.

In comes Deathwing. It is important to note that there is Deathwing pre cata and then Deathwing after Blizzard decided to build him up with the sole focus on addressing the player perception that beating arthas = beating WoW. One is a minor villian in an expansion to a game that came out when I was 14 (I am now 30). The other is a victim of ret-conning with the sole purpose of creating a SUPER MEGA BIG BAD that made Arthas look like a walking v'agina.

Of course as a villian he kind of fell flat, mainly because of the (over)hype. In a response to that you have a complete absence of a villian (kind of). A focus on the Horde/Alliance conflict is a central theme, needs no introduction, and is something that players are already interested in.

/shrug



Edited, Apr 26th 2012 7:27pm by bodhisattva
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#28 Apr 26 2012 at 5:35 PM Rating: Excellent
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Also as much as I ***** I think a resolution to Garrosh/Varian story arcs is promising (Ulduar patch cinematic anyone) & TOC. WotLK saw a lot of the animosity even in the face of a huge threat. Cata felt like it dropped any horde/alliance story other than the obvious focus on Thrall.
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#29 Apr 26 2012 at 5:59 PM Rating: Excellent
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bodhisattva wrote:
Also as much as I ***** I think a resolution to Garrosh/Varian story arcs is promising (Ulduar patch cinematic anyone) & TOC. WotLK saw a lot of the animosity even in the face of a huge threat. Cata felt like it dropped any horde/alliance story other than the obvious focus on Thrall.
I am debating to move to a PVP server to really feel the all out war between Alliance and Horde.
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#30 Apr 26 2012 at 7:33 PM Rating: Decent
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Theophany wrote:
I'm going to pick fall, based on how sh*tty the beta is right now. They're still randomly fiddling with abilities and crap, so...yeah.



Isn't "heart of the swarm" x pac for SC2 suppose to release this year also? (I swear I haven't heard anything about a beta for it, but I haven't looked for it either.) IIRC SC2 released in June '10 so I could see it's xpac out in this summer and wow xpac out in the fall. Of course I'm totally guessing(and hoping) this happens.
#31 Apr 27 2012 at 12:21 AM Rating: Good
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Borsuk wrote:
Prior to the end of Wrath - I'd never heard of DW.

Perhaps I'm wrong or I missed it... Wiki says WC2 was released December 9th, 1995.

He played a role in WC2. I very vividly remember Deathwing from that game (the expansion).
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#32 Apr 27 2012 at 3:49 AM Rating: Good
bodhisattva wrote:
Also as much as I ***** I think a resolution to Garrosh/Varian story arcs is promising (Ulduar patch cinematic anyone) & TOC.


Please don't remind me of ToC. That filler tier was terrible in almost every way.

Though, you're right, it did build on the Alliance/Horde conflict.
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#33 Apr 27 2012 at 4:06 AM Rating: Decent
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IDrownFish of the Seven Seas wrote:
bodhisattva wrote:
Also as much as I ***** I think a resolution to Garrosh/Varian story arcs is promising (Ulduar patch cinematic anyone) & TOC.


Please don't remind me of ToC. That filler tier was terrible in almost every way.

Though, you're right, it did build on the Alliance/Horde conflict.

Actually I'm all for quick boss battles. Granted, I never did ToC, but still. Better than thousands of waves of trash like the stupidity that was Mt Hyjal. I drew pictures and posted them on my guild's website during that raid. Smiley: oyvey

Best rogue officer ever, right here. Rogue channel: "Korz, should we be doing trash?" "Nah bro, let's see who can draw the funniest picture then post them on the guild website!" "K LOL!"

Then my guild would wonder why the rogues would just auto attack the trash. Smiley: lol

Edited, Apr 27th 2012 3:08am by Theophany
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#34 Apr 27 2012 at 8:04 AM Rating: Decent
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The explanations above kind of make me more worried.

The whole DW thing was kind of lame IMO. (Even the fight... you basically stop him by hitting his knuckles.)
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#35 Apr 27 2012 at 3:05 PM Rating: Good
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Borsuk wrote:
The explanations above kind of make me more worried.

The whole DW thing was kind of lame IMO. (Even the fight... you basically stop him by hitting his knuckles.)

You stopped Ragnaros by hitting his feet (or what would pass for his feet). Same with Kil'jaeden, Illidan, etc.

I don't know why you're getting bent out of shape because of physics in a fantasy game. Do you really think that me ambushing someone in the back with a knife would stop me from killing them even if they have armor on? Hah, no.

Get your head out of your ***, you didn't like Deathwing as the boss because you have no idea who he is.
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#36 Apr 27 2012 at 5:35 PM Rating: Good
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Theophany wrote:
Get your head out of your ***, you didn't like Deathwing as the boss because you have no idea who he is.



So he is representative of the vast majority of the WoW population? At this point Blizz has even commented on the fact that Deathwing was underwhelming as a villian.
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#37 Apr 28 2012 at 9:18 AM Rating: Decent
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Rag and Kil'jaeden were not as bad from a physics perspective. Ranged and Casters both hit the body....

Cata was a let-down.

You're right though - I still have no idea who DW is and that's part of the reason it was not appealing.
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#38 Apr 28 2012 at 1:10 PM Rating: Excellent
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Borsuk wrote:
Rag and Kil'jaeden were not as bad from a physics perspective. Ranged and Casters both hit the body....

Cata was a let-down.

You're right though - I still have no idea who DW is and that's part of the reason it was not appealing.

We didn't have an idea of who Ragnaros was before WoW except through lore (which was less than we got about Deathwing) and no one whined or moaned about him.

I guess I'm just frustrated with most of the player base being so whiney and jaded at this point. If you look back at how the game was in 2004, it's come leaps about bounds since then; it was the yardstick that MMOs were measured against back then, and it still is today.

Maybe it's because I'm not raiding, but I've found Cata to be pretty good from a lore and questing standpoint. The PvE content may be lacking to some people that have played for a while, but I still rate it up with TBC in terms of expansion (WotLK being the worst).
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#39 Apr 28 2012 at 1:43 PM Rating: Good
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Cata had a bumpy launch which turned off a lot of players, especially returning players.

Molten Front dailies were hated on (which is a shame because I enjoyed them and they were much better than ToC dailies). Firelands got hated on for not being enough content and for being out for too long. Which is also a shame because on HM I thought it was a fairly decent dungeon. Even running normal mode on alts was a fun run.

DS wasn't bad but 6-8 months with that is the only raid. Blizzard needs to invest more money and start producing content at a Rift pace imo.
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#40 Apr 28 2012 at 6:34 PM Rating: Excellent
bodhisattva wrote:
Blizzard needs to invest more money and start producing content at a Rift pace imo.


This is pretty much the issue. I know that quality and speed are often mutually exclusive, but if any company can pull off producing good stuff at a fester rate, it's Blizz.

I know they want everyone to have a chance to see content before moving on, but Blizzard lets raid tiers sit for too long. Firelands was the current tier for too long, or alternatively was just too short. Dragon Soul is likely going to be out for too long as well. Last night my guild downed Heroic Madness. At first, it was awesome. But we quickly realized, "Well crap. What now?"

This has been a problem since WotLK. Naxx was revamped to give them time for Ulduar. ToC was a ******** filler raid they put together to have time for ICC. ICC went on for about the length of an average pregnancy, and Cata still wasn't completely ready to be shipped when it did.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Blizzard needs to fix the pace they produce raid content. It's just not fast enough.
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#41 Apr 28 2012 at 7:25 PM Rating: Excellent
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Limited resources is a fair argument.


However when lack of new content is a major source of subscription loss, & when release of new content is a major source of subscription renewal you would think that they would stagger content release within the life cycle of an expansion at a more even pace than they do. It doesn't always have to be a raid. World events, new dungeons or dailies, a new BG or PvP event.

That being said a lot has to be said to the social features they have been building into the game. Cross game chat, cross server chat, dungeon & raid finders etc. Playing SWTOR right now I missed looking for dungeon (though I kind of like knowing people on my server!).
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#42 Apr 30 2012 at 11:21 AM Rating: Excellent
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bodhisattva wrote:

That being said a lot has to be said to the social features they have been building into the game. Cross game chat, cross server chat, dungeon & raid finders etc. Playing SWTOR right now I missed looking for dungeon (though I kind of like knowing people on my server!).

The last bit is the only real downside that I see. Back in the LFG channel days, yeah, it was painful to get a group together, but when you did, the group was for an hour plus, and you got to know (about) people. You saw the same familiar names. And when the inevitable drama happened in a small guild, the people who left had a support network, and the people who stayed had a contact network. If they could find some way to have the current dungeon/raid finder support the server first - although right now they might be doing the best they can at it, we just have no way of knowing.
#43 May 02 2012 at 2:04 AM Rating: Excellent
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Looking at Cataclysm from a purely story perspective, it lacked major elements that are nearly universal in storytelling.

There was no build up to the Cataclysm. Obviously, in-game there were some events prior to it, but those were minor and in the scope of the story were not sufficient. A build-up of tension or early introduction of the plot is absolutely necessary. This simply wasn't there. We beat Arthas, and then we wait for like a year. And then we're told to buy the fact that some guy that most of us don't even know just reshaped the world overnight. Whereas with Arthas, everyone knew who he was. You had multiple zones, even dungeons, with references to him. Even when I first started playing about 5 years ago in early BC, within a month I already knew about the Lich King and that he was bad. In those 5 years, the only references I ever heard of Deathwing were vague and generally through outside sources.

Another huge narrative misstep was Firelands. Again, remember, I'm addressing it merely from a story perspective. Firelands was simply a repeat of the Molten Core story that was resolved years ago. We're given one zone at the beginning of the expansion to sell us a story we've already resolved. Druids of the Flame were vaguely hinted at over the years, but again, they were just kind of thrown at us and told to buy it. Suspension of disbelief overload.

Finally, most of Cataclysm content had only a few references to Deathwing. Yes, I know there are *some* quests that Deathwing is a major part, but unless you're going out of your way to complete entire zones then you will most likely miss the references. This means that by the time Dragon Soul came out, Deathwing has still not been properly built-up and we're left with a climax that simply fizzles. Compare this to Wrath of the Lich King where you are introduced to the final villian at the door and every step along the way. The only zone that I can't recall a major Lich King presence is Grizzly Hills, but by the time you've reached there you've covered nearly all of the Fjord or Borean, and even possibly Dragonblight. All of which are zones you can't ignore the Lich King's presence.

The very first dungeon of WOTLK introduces you to LK with direct references including the end where you see a Valkyr turn the boss into an undead. BRC on the other hand falls short. Of course, Twilight Cultist are linked to Deathwing, but I don't know anywhere in the dungeon where you're directly referenced. Unless you know the lore, its easy to complete BRC without knowing it has any relation to Deathwing.

Prior to Cataclysm there are absolutely 0 dungeons with any direct reference to Deathwing, and as far as I can tell, with maybe the exception of Blackwing's Lair, there are no hints to him.

Compare this to 6 zones (Tirisfal Glades, Silverpine Forest, Western Plaguelands, Eastern Plaguelands, Eversong Woods, Ghostlands), 3 races (Forsaken, Humans, and Blood Elfs), 3 instances (Razorfen Downs, Scholomance, Stratholme), 1 raid (60 Naxxaramas), 3 factions (Argent Dawn, Scarlet Crusade, Brotherhood of Light), all with major references prior to LK release.

After release you have Utgarde Keep, Utgarde Pinnacle, Drak'Tharon Keep, Old Kingdom, Azjol-Nerub, Trial of the Champion, all with direct links to the Lich King. You have two factions directly linked to the storyline (Ebon Blade, Argent Crusade). Two raids prior to the final raid (Naxxaramas, Trial of the Crusader). And all but two zones (Storm Peaks and Grizzly Hills) with unignorable quest lines.

Compare this to Cataclysm where we're thrown this story at start up and asked to buy it. None of the five mans directly involve Deathwing (sans Hour of Twilight, but notice I excluded the Frozen Throne for the purposes of these comparisons as well.) There are numerous references in zones AFTER the fact, but many of those references take a lot of digging to find. Only one faction (Earthen Ring). And the result is an underwhelming interest and understanding in the story.

These are all BAD things. If your audience is confused and not excited, they become distracted and you'll lose their attention. Apart from any game play issues, that's exactly what happened.

Hour of Twilight was way, way, way too late and should have been released when the Troll Heroics were. Really, they are the first real explanation as to what is going on and who Deathwing is. By the time we're given these revelations we're just fed up with the story.

Edited, May 2nd 2012 4:05am by ekaterinodar
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#44 May 02 2012 at 2:27 AM Rating: Good
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I predict they release early and do the whole forced beta thing like they did with Cata,

Probs before/during Q4 to get the retail purchasing explosion holiday sales.
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#45 May 02 2012 at 6:06 AM Rating: Excellent
IDrownFish of the Seven Seas wrote:

This is pretty much the issue. I know that quality and speed are often mutually exclusive, but if any company can pull off producing good stuff at a fester rate, it's Blizz.


Ewww Why would we want stuff festering?
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#46 May 02 2012 at 8:16 AM Rating: Excellent
Because festering is AWESOME. Have you ever festered before? You haven't lived until you've tried it.


Typo. Meant to say faster. Typed that on a phone. Talking like Rorschach now. Don't know why. Hrmph.
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#47 May 02 2012 at 9:19 AM Rating: Excellent
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IDrownFish of the Seven Seas wrote:
Typed that on a phone.


Typed on a phone?! **** is wrong with kids these days. Phones are for talkin words not typin words. Best you get that straight. All that techocratic mumbo jumbo messin with your head. Spendin too much time watchin boobies on the youtube I bet. Not getting any fresh air, that's what's doin it! Back in my day we...
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#48 May 02 2012 at 11:04 AM Rating: Excellent
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someproteinguy wrote:
IDrownFish of the Seven Seas wrote:
Typed that on a phone.


Typed on a phone?! **** is wrong with kids these days. Phones are for talkin words not typin words. Best you get that straight. All that techocratic mumbo jumbo messin with your head. Spendin too much time watchin boobies on the youtube I bet. Not getting any fresh air, that's what's doin it! Back in my day we...


AND STAY OFF HIS LAWN!!!

Edited, May 2nd 2012 12:05pm by Bigdaddyjug
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#49 May 02 2012 at 1:25 PM Rating: Excellent
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ekaterinodar wrote:
Looking at Cataclysm from a purely story perspective, it lacked major elements that are nearly universal in storytelling...


This reply is sort of off topic, but the thread has headed that way anway. And, I really like ekaterinodar's post, so I wanted to respond.

I very much agree with the post and I'm not really much of a lore person. But, the lack of cohesiveness is definitely there. I think a related problem with Cata (and the story) is the disjointed feel of all the new zones. Each zone is cool in its own right, but taken together, they are disjointed. It starts with the most obvious...they're physcially separate. But, the stories are also unconnected.

I think a major plus of TBC and Wrath was having a neutral city in the middle of all the current content zones (aside from lag issues for some people, obviously). It made things more connected and made the new zones more accessible. Now, people just sit in Org or SW and wait for group summons or LFR/LFD to get anywhere, except those few individuals that actually travel somewhere to do the summons. There are several Cata zones I barely go into anymore, unless Im trying to farm something. I feel like I had much more connection to the various zones in TBC and Wrath. I actually had to go to or at least through the zones. You can't even go from zone to zone in Cata without hearthing/portal. It just makes it feel small, to me. Flying across Outland or Northrend, going through multiple zones, just makes it seem more substantial. I guess in the end, I'd have preferred they retconned Cata content into a single continent (like Wrath and MoP).

As for release date of MoP...I'll skip a prediction. Most of the expansions have been released before they were ready (mainly from mechanics perspective), imo, and I wouldn't be surprised if it happens again.
#50 May 02 2012 at 2:43 PM Rating: Excellent
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azwing wrote:
ekaterinodar wrote:
Looking at Cataclysm from a purely story perspective, it lacked major elements that are nearly universal in storytelling...




I very much agree with the post and I'm not really much of a lore person. But, the lack of cohesiveness is definitely there.


^My opinion too.
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#51 May 02 2012 at 3:04 PM Rating: Excellent
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My guess is later rather than sooner. As mentioned above the state of the game in beta relese is far from finished. But if I remember they bought me off with a free copy of Diablo 3... Doesn't that go live in a few weeks?
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