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How to tell when you need to change guildsFollow

#1 Dec 07 2006 at 1:45 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
I was in a raiding guild that charged 40 DKP for minor epics and 80 dkp for major epics (based on the leader's opinion). An epic ring drops and everyone who wanted it didn't have the DKP.

So what did they do? Take bids? Roll for it? Give it to their favorite friend? No, they sharded it right there.

New guild for me.


Since there were so many comments, let me add some info to clarify...

The guild has really experienced leadership and tactics but it is new and running ZG and MC. We have never failed to down a boss and only wiped once while I was there. I am still a member, but I have been leveling an alt instead.

The issue I have (and other members mutter about too) is that the prices are arbitrarily fixed at 40 and 80 dkp. There are good items that people can use, but we don't earn enough points to pay for everything that drops, so it gets sharded because people don't want to go negative and then miss the uber item they were hoping for.

I would like to see items auctioned for DKP, or rolled for if no one will pay, or at least given to someone. I have not spoken up, but other people have and they were put down. The guild leader is the proverbial Dragon Lady who jumps all over people for mistakes and has a long memory. As people said, speaking up may be a good approach, but its not my guild so I just let them do as they please and cry on the boards instead :(.

Edited, Dec 8th 2006 11:55am by AddictedFanatic
#2 Dec 07 2006 at 1:50 PM Rating: Decent
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Ouch, Well I'd have to agree with you there. If everybody needs something there is no reason to shard it. It makes me feel better about my raiding guild; I know they would never do something like that.

Good Luck finding a better guild.
#3 Dec 07 2006 at 1:56 PM Rating: Decent
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That has got to be one of the worst guild policys I've ever heard of. Talk about ignorance. Good luck in finding anouther guild.
#4 Dec 07 2006 at 2:22 PM Rating: Decent
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Okay I know DKP is a decent system to some degree, but that is just retarded.
#5 Dec 07 2006 at 9:12 PM Rating: Good
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were you on a day 1 server by any chance?

a lot of those aq40 and naxx raiders roll alts. they can solo and pug up to 60, but how do they fill the gap between ubrs and aq40?

simple: they hop from one mc/bwl guild to the next, running their dkp as far into the negative as the guild will allow, then pick a fight with the guild leaders, then leave the guild and trash them in the forums...

and the next mc/bwl guild is more than willing to pick them up, because they're short on healers.

it really sucks when you're short a healer in zg, and hey look! that fresh 60 druid recruit is in aq40 and not answering tells! after the guild leader threatens to boot him for raiding aq40 (in blues and greens) with another guild he finally shows up.... a week later he bids on two boe mc epics from the guild bank (worth 1000g+)... and leaves the guild a week after that.

that's just one scenario that can lead to a "no negative dkp" policy.
#6 Dec 07 2006 at 9:49 PM Rating: Decent
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Wow OP that is horrible. To think one of the purposes of raiding is to acquire better gear for your team, thus enabling you to advance to more difficult dungeons in the game. Smiley: confused
#7 Dec 07 2006 at 9:57 PM Rating: Decent
Please tell me you /gquit on the spot, and /laugh'ed while waiting for the instance to boot you home. Your guild leader has to work for the government to have that little problem with waste.
#8 Dec 07 2006 at 11:10 PM Rating: Decent
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don't forget that nexus shards are used in +15 agi enchants and ony cloaks. both of which are required for bwl tanks; and at the very least, extremely recommended for the rest of the bwl raid.
#9 Dec 08 2006 at 12:50 AM Rating: Good
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To the OP:
Sorry i cant sympathyze with you with this little information you give.

In my guild they shard epics if noone wants it and recruits who want it dont have the DKP to pay for it.
Its a very good to find out if a recruit is just another epic ***** joing his epic guild #74314 or just a "normal" person who wants to enjoy playing WoW and want to join our guild bc of us and the atmosphere.
The "no negative DKP for recruits" is quite normal on our server also a trail period of at least a month before you get promoted. Just to prevent the very common situation as described by Axhed. Especially now with the server transfers, it has gotten 10x worse.

Disregarding the previous, leaving a guild over 1 epic is kinda strange, especially if you didnt discuss the matter, everything can be solved by talking, if it cant then you can always leave.

I have a reserved opinion about people who just leave a guild without taking action to change a situation. Especially if they didnt say anything up until they left over that 1 epic.

Axhed you are/have been guild leader/officer also? :)


Edited, Dec 8th 2006 4:27am by Sjans
#10 Dec 08 2006 at 1:02 AM Rating: Good
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Only questions though, Sjans(again he didn't give enough info): Was it only recruits that wanted it? Or was it long time members?

Definitely agree with your position if it was only recruits wanting the item, but if a long time member wanted it and it still got sharded, that seems a little silly to me.

It is kind of strange to me to leave a guild over a single epic without talking about it, however. And I've seen people do it.
#11 Dec 08 2006 at 1:18 AM Rating: Decent
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axhed the Flatulent wrote:
were you on a day 1 server by any chance?

a lot of those aq40 and naxx raiders roll alts. they can solo and pug up to 60, but how do they fill the gap between ubrs and aq40?

simple: they hop from one mc/bwl guild to the next, running their dkp as far into the negative as the guild will allow, then pick a fight with the guild leaders, then leave the guild and trash them in the forums...

and the next mc/bwl guild is more than willing to pick them up, because they're short on healers.

it really sucks when you're short a healer in zg, and hey look! that fresh 60 druid recruit is in aq40 and not answering tells! after the guild leader threatens to boot him for raiding aq40 (in blues and greens) with another guild he finally shows up.... a week later he bids on two boe mc epics from the guild bank (worth 1000g+)... and leaves the guild a week after that.

that's just one scenario that can lead to a "no negative dkp" policy.

ok, now why would an alt from an endgame guild gear up the char with another guild? he can just tag along in bwl in a mix of alts/mains and easily get his gear. much easier than trusting a guild that isn't as progressed and will take longer through the instances.

i generally agree with having a no-negative-dkp policy for new members to stop people from getting free loot and jumping ship, but the whole endgame raider alt story is a bit rich.

Edited, Dec 8th 2006 10:32am by Turicus
#12 Dec 08 2006 at 1:27 AM Rating: Good
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axhed the Flatulent wrote:
don't forget that nexus shards are used in +15 agi enchants and ony cloaks. both of which are required for bwl tanks; and at the very least, extremely recommended for the rest of the bwl raid.

this information is incorrect.

a) ony cloaks do NOT require nexus crystals. the +15 fr enchant most people have on it does. (+15 agi to gloves does, +15 agi to 1h weapon does not).

b) bwl+ tanks may enchant their gloves with agi, but they might also go for +threat.

c) everyone in a bwl raid absolutely needs an ony cloak or you get insta-gibbed at nef. not just "recommended", no way around it.
#13 Dec 08 2006 at 1:34 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
An epic ring drops and everyone who wanted it didn't have the DKP.


I agree to an extent with sharding items rather than giving to new recruits, because the crystals can be more useful to the tried and tested raiders (although thankfully my guild doesn't do that, I won a couple of items during my trial), but the above does make it sound as if seasoned guild members were after the ring as well. In that case surely the raid would benefit more from a full time member with an upgraded piece of gear than a nexus crystal (or even two).

I don't think I would /gquit over a single incident, but that would certainly be enough for me to get some heated debates going on the guild forum, and if people weren't willing to listen I probably would leave. It seems to be a ridiculous policy to me.

At least half of my guild is currently in negative DKP. The warrior who won the T2 chest piece on Monday is literally on worse than -1000 (the item was worth ~180). Would you shard something like that just because the only person who wanted it was in the minus figures?
#14 Dec 08 2006 at 1:40 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
At least half of my guild is currently in negative DKP.


Then its time to revise youre DKP system.

As an OT sidenote, on my server the big 5 raiding guilds (AQ40 or beyond, including mine) hold an MC raid every sunday to gear up alts and to get the remaining mains their t2 pants, the main reason those raids were created bc all the guilds dont run MC anymore. A raid leader is assigned then a channel set up for invites.

Mains that need their pants get preference to spots. All loot is /random except for raggy loot, there its given to mains only and its guesstimated who has done the most runs. Another rule is that youre not allowed to whine if youre forced to take youre main to the raggy fight ;)

Edited, Dec 8th 2006 4:53am by Sjans
#15 Dec 08 2006 at 1:41 AM Rating: Decent
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DKP is used to divide the items fairly among your members. However, whoever gets the item, he's a member of the raid, so the raid as a whole became a tiny bit stronger again, allowing for overall progress. Not giving the item to anyone, because everyone lacked DKP just prevents progress and sounds like a stupid thing to do, imho.

Of course there are exceptions. When only initiates (or maybe alts) are interested, then yes, you aren't sure that person stays in the guild, so giving him the item might not support progress if he leaves the guild in two days.

In my guild, initiates can only bid on items no members wants. They do build up full DKP though, and once they get accepted, they can get the rewards for assisting the raids when they were initiate just like any other member that was there. We only dis something nobody wants.
#16 Dec 08 2006 at 1:48 AM Rating: Decent
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Alestian wrote:
At least half of my guild is currently in negative DKP.



Then its time to revise youre DKP system.


Nah, it works fine. It's all about relative figures...it doesn't matter if everyone in a class, for example, is negative, someone's still going to have more than the rest.

We use zero sum, so it's as fair as it can be.
#17 Dec 08 2006 at 1:58 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Nah, it works fine. It's all about relative figures...it doesn't matter if everyone in a class, for example, is negative, someone's still going to have more than the rest.


Well you could easily end up with a situation where a new member gets the "uber-item of 0.1% dropchance" before youre "core core" group.
Anyway, I wouldnt be happy but to each his own. (someone who begins at 0 DKP when he enters the guild has "earned" 1000 DKP above a core raider, quite wierd, in my personal opinion, imo, etc.)

In our guild we constantly balance our DKP system, we play with the prices and rewards to put focus on intances. It has scaled quite a bit from 500 DKP for MC items till 1200 DKP for NAX items the revenue has also increased. Its just like gold did when you levelled up.
The general philosophy is that you get the DKP for wiping, joining farming is the place to spend DKP (you relativly earn very little).

We have "core core" members with 99% attendence who have more DKP then they can spend, thats why we have a minimum price for items and then people can bid so those 99% attendence people can blow their DKP on rare loot or on "first drops".
That way the best items end up in the hands of people that use it the most.
And DKP doesnt keep rising infinatly or people end up in perma-negative.

The system works is quite perfect, although i do say so myself *coughcough*
I was the guy that originally set it up.
Just wanted to give an example, sorry im proud :P

The DKP system is the most powerfull, and maybe even only, tool you have as an officer to steer youre guild. Thats why i think personally, imo, etc, that zero sum doesnt work.

And if youre guild is zero sum, how can it be people have negative DKP to begin with???

Edited, Dec 8th 2006 5:13am by Sjans
#18 Dec 08 2006 at 2:10 AM Rating: Decent
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Sjans wrote:
And if youre guild is zero sum, how can it be people have negative DKP to begin with???


As I understand it, Zero Sum DKP will usually have some people with negative and some with positive, balancing out to zero.
#19 Dec 08 2006 at 2:12 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
As I understand it, Zero Sum DKP will usually have some people with negative and some with positive, balancing out to zero.


Ah, i thought zero-sum was that the items that drop on a run also provide the reward for that run so at the end of a run the the amount of DKP spent and earned balances to 0.
But i think that both intepertations of the system is quite the horror if you have a wiping week.


Edited, Dec 8th 2006 5:18am by Sjans
#20 Dec 08 2006 at 2:14 AM Rating: Decent
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Sjans wrote:
Ah, i thought zero-sum was that the items that drop on a run also provide the reward for that run so at the end of a run the the amount of DKP spent and earned balances to 0.


I think that might probably be closer(been a while since I researched em) but it balances for the whole raid so some may still lose DKP on a winning night.
#21 Dec 08 2006 at 2:20 AM Rating: Good
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Well you could easily end up with a situation where a new member gets the "uber-item of 0.1% dropchance" before youre "core core" group.


Aye, there is that...full members always have priority over trials regardless of DKP, but it is possible for someone who has just passed to win something over a long-term member. I'm sure that would be annoying (it's happened to me once, but I've only been with the guild for a couple of months so I can't really complain), but if someone's accepted as a full member, it's difficult to argue their entitlement.

Quote:
And if youre guild is zero sum, how can it be people have negative DKP to begin with???


Part of the problem is the instances we do. We still run MC, but loot is done on a need/pass basis, no DKP earned or spent other than on Raggy. We spend a lot of time doing AQ40, but because we're still "progressing" (ie wiping on Huhu) we earn small amounts of DKP per run, but the few items that get won still have full costs. Perhaps that's something that could be changed, but it's not my place to suggest that yet.

The only raid in which we actually earn good amounts of DKP is BWL.

Bidding could work, it's true. But I think it's less of an issue because at the moment the newer recruits are spending most of their DKP on items longer standing members already have...in fact, I don't think any of us who have joined in the last couple of months have positive DKP.

I also hate bidding ;) My last guild had a bid + roll system (ie whisper your bid, everyone who wants the item then rolls, the two totals are added and the highest wins), which admittedly worked in favour of people who raided most, but you could end up spending vast amounts of DKP on a single item to guarantee winning it. I used about four weeks' worth on my Staff of Dominance. It was also more frustrating when you didn't win, because you'd be thinking "if only I'd bid an extra 5", or the like. I imagine you don't have that problem with open bidding, though.
#22 Dec 08 2006 at 2:23 AM Rating: Decent
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I think that might probably be closer(been a while since I researched em) but it balances for the whole raid so some may still lose DKP on a winning night.


Hmm...that doesn't happen with us...perhaps we don't use standard zero sum, then. As far as I know the value of an item is divided by the number of people in the raid when it dropped, and that figure is then multiplied by...something...and the result is awarded to all those present.

Is that not zero sum? Perhaps I'm just getting confused ;)
#23 Dec 08 2006 at 2:35 AM Rating: Decent
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I also hate bidding ;)


With us there only is bidding on conveted items, on usual drops that weve seen a couple of times before people that want the item usually /random or negotiate amongst themselves (by choice) to keep the price low.

And its quite fun to see the DKP blowing orgy after you down a new boss, it makes "a festive occasion" even more so. Its quite entertaining especially in combination with Ventrilo.

And its the only way to solve the DKP gap between the "core core" members and the normal core members(50-70% attendence) and give them something in return (priority) for their higher attendence and coming to wipe raids. Not that higher attendence people swipe away good items from other memebers that they equip once for show and then rot in their bank afterwards.
And the system eliminates loot drama / whining / discussion / Raidleader friend shady politics.
Capitalism is a tried and tested system ;)

Also zero sum is the polar opposite of our:
"you get DKP for wiping (costs a lot of gold) not for farming (free epix)" philosophy.

Quote:
and that figure is then multiplied by...something

It was zero sum until that popped up :)

Edited, Dec 8th 2006 5:55am by Sjans
#24 Dec 08 2006 at 2:44 AM Rating: Decent
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"you get DKP for wiping (costs a lot of gold) not for farming (free epix)" philosophy.


I can definitely see the attraction in that...sounds interesting. On what basis do you award DKP, then? Per hour spent raiding?

Quote:
And its quite fun to see the DKP blowing orgy after you down a new boss, it makes "a festive occasion" even more so. Its quite entertaining.


I can imagine! I'd love to see some of your post-Naxx boss bidding ;)
#25 Dec 08 2006 at 2:48 AM Rating: Decent
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On farm raids (bosses downed 2-3 times) you get a fixed reward per downed boss. On wiping raids you get DKP per hour, usuallly quadruple the reward you get for downing a farmed boss in the same instance.
We give a little extra for a first kill but not much, since we dont want to ***** people that might have raided previous nights and helped getting the boss down but werent there the night of the kill.

Quote:
I can imagine! I'd love to see some of your post-Naxx boss bidding ;)


Crazy rogues....
:D

Edited, Dec 8th 2006 5:57am by Sjans
#26 Dec 08 2006 at 2:54 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
On farm raids (bosses downed 2-3 times) you get a fixed reward per downed boss. On wiping raids you get DKP per hour, usuallly quadruple the reward you get for downing a farmed boss in the same instance.
We give a little extra for a first kill but not much, since we dont want to ***** people that might have raided previous nights and hleped getting the boss down but werent there the night of the kill.


Makes sense. And, actually, ties in with some parts of my old guild's system - extra for first kills (double, in fact, which probably is a little excessive), DKP given if present at start and finish. And I think we did have one night (current guild) when we didn't kill anything, but everyone was still awarded some DKP for the time they put in.

I guess it just shows that every system has its pluses and negatives, and what it comes down to is whether everyone is happy with how it works.

Quote:
Quote:
and that figure is then multiplied by...something


It was zero sum until that popped up :)


Ah...then perhaps there isn't a multiplier. I should probably make a point of figuring out exactly what we do!
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