Mornin', ya'll.
A quick question for the heavy-raiders (Or even those that raid once in a while. You guys count, too).
In your raids, do your organizers make a point to have a equal amount of every class within the raid? I understand requiring a minimum of each class (say 2 of each), but at what point do you go "Okay... let's just fill in the gaps." I would guess that these minimums are dependent on what Raid Instance you are going into.
Also, how do the organizers arrange the individual group composistions? All the Priests in one group, or spread about between 2 or 3 groups so that they can see de-buffs more clearly? Other healers placed similarly?
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at what point do you go "Okay... let's just fill in the gaps."
Usually when we're five minutes past the time invites should have finished ;)
Ideally we try to get a complete balance (ie 5 of each class), but that rarely happens, and isn't desperately important. There are certain fights for which you need a certain number of specific classes (e.g. ideally four warlocks on Garr) but generally speaking as a minimum you just need a good balance of tanking, dps, healing.
There are times when the raid composition is staged to help us on a specific fight - when we killed Fankriss last week we had eight warriors, which would never normally happen. You don't really need warriors on Fankriss himself - druids are normally fine - but we wanted the absolute best chance of taking him down (and it worked).
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Also, how do the organizers arrange the individual group composistions? All the Priests in one group, or spread about between 2 or 3 groups so that they can see de-buffs more clearly? Other healers placed similarly?
Generally we have four or five tank + associated healer groups - warrior, priest, paladin, druid, warlock (ideally, though not always) - and three or four dps groups, with the rest of the healers mixed in as evenly as possible.
Its really going to differ based on the instance and the boss that you're going to be going against. Priests will need to be distributed among groups so that they can focus on healing their group. The first couple groups will most likely have a tank, a main healer, a warlock (imp buff), an off healer (paladin/druid/shaman), and perhaps another class for a buff (i.e. Hunter) or a rogue... but the last spot can flex for sure.
But again, it often gets adjusted to the boss encounter. Fights like Onyxia, for instance, will require a couple groups to be dedicated to fighting Whelps so you'll have some rogues and mages in those with a dps warrior if possible and a healer.
In the end, it's preferred to usually have decent healing (at least an class like pally/druid/shaman) in just about every group.
At least this is my experience, but I'm sure there are those out there with a lot more knowledge than this.
But again, it often gets adjusted to the boss encounter. Fights like Onyxia, for instance, will require a couple groups to be dedicated to fighting Whelps so you'll have some rogues and mages in those with a dps warrior if possible and a healer.
In the end, it's preferred to usually have decent healing (at least an class like pally/druid/shaman) in just about every group.
At least this is my experience, but I'm sure there are those out there with a lot more knowledge than this.
Have a bit of each, but not strictly 5 of each. Some classes (Warlocks and Druids) weren't that usefull before the patch, with the debuff limit and nonstacking hots, but that changed now.
For the buildup, that changes from guild to guild. Usually the main tanks go in the 1st groups, each with a paladin and a warlock for their aura's. If the healers focus on grouphealing (provides less overhealing, but allows for less aura min-maxing), then place a priest in those groups as well. 5th slot goes to a rogue or mage, kinda depending on the encounter.
We're placing a feral druid, a DPS warrior, a hunter with truestrike and 2 rogues together in group 8 lately. Seems to work out ok, especially with the new Feral aura healing. Guess you could technically do the same with a moonkin and some mages, if you have one. Healers need to watch those groups a little of course, as they lack healers.
Most people don't even see the party frames, having those disabled and replaced by addons like CTRA. However, with decursive gone, it'll defenitely help to organize dispelling.
For the buildup, that changes from guild to guild. Usually the main tanks go in the 1st groups, each with a paladin and a warlock for their aura's. If the healers focus on grouphealing (provides less overhealing, but allows for less aura min-maxing), then place a priest in those groups as well. 5th slot goes to a rogue or mage, kinda depending on the encounter.
We're placing a feral druid, a DPS warrior, a hunter with truestrike and 2 rogues together in group 8 lately. Seems to work out ok, especially with the new Feral aura healing. Guess you could technically do the same with a moonkin and some mages, if you have one. Healers need to watch those groups a little of course, as they lack healers.
Most people don't even see the party frames, having those disabled and replaced by addons like CTRA. However, with decursive gone, it'll defenitely help to organize dispelling.
We don't do even distribution of classes. It varies on the particular instance. For MC we only aim for a total of 4 priests, but BWL we try to get 5.
When "confirmed" slots are filled, we fill the rest of the slots as evenly as possible but will take any class when we are simply running short on players, period.
When "confirmed" slots are filled, we fill the rest of the slots as evenly as possible but will take any class when we are simply running short on players, period.
my guilds standard raid composition: (also standard in sign up, phpRaid)
4 druids
5 hunters
5 mages
6 priests
6 rogues
6 warriors
3 warlocks
5 shamans
currently wiping on Noth.
Edited, Dec 7th 2006 9:59am by Sjans
4 druids
5 hunters
5 mages
6 priests
6 rogues
6 warriors
3 warlocks
5 shamans
currently wiping on Noth.
Edited, Dec 7th 2006 9:59am by Sjans
Thanks for the responses so far.
Additional questions:
With the addition of a 9th Class (Shamans to Alliance and Paladins to Horde), are raids goign to change their composition.
With the rumor that 40-man raiding will be be re-capped at 25-man, will compositions change?
And finally, linking this with the Decursive "Nerf", do you think that Blizz designed the Raids specifically require more than token representation from classes, or to compensate, maybe have a few more priests to spread amongst the teams, even if they're Shadow-Spec? (Last I checked, they could still heal)
Additional questions:
With the addition of a 9th Class (Shamans to Alliance and Paladins to Horde), are raids goign to change their composition.
With the rumor that 40-man raiding will be be re-capped at 25-man, will compositions change?
And finally, linking this with the Decursive "Nerf", do you think that Blizz designed the Raids specifically require more than token representation from classes, or to compensate, maybe have a few more priests to spread amongst the teams, even if they're Shadow-Spec? (Last I checked, they could still heal)
The current instances will remain untouched, except that starting with this patch, they will drop both paladin and shaman gear. They will remain 40 man instances. Due to these game mechanics, raids will stay 40 man max.
However, they have announced that (at least for now), Naxx will be the last 40 man instance. TBC instances will be 25 man max, and if you have more than 25 people in a raid, then it'll just be like current BRS/ZG/AQ20, where the rest simply can't enter.
I have no idea how that'll affect class division, especially as class spec will fill a more detailed role. If there are 4 mobs, you can bring 4 protection warriors, of which 3 will be picking their nose @ the next bossfight where only 1 tank is needed, or you could bring 2 protection warriors, 1 protection paladin and a feral druid for example.
At the next fight, where only 1 tank is needed, the paladin will still be blessing and will assist on the healing, though not as good as his holy buddies, still adequate with the right gear. The druid could be in her cat form in the melee DPS group, increasing that whole group's damage.
However, they have announced that (at least for now), Naxx will be the last 40 man instance. TBC instances will be 25 man max, and if you have more than 25 people in a raid, then it'll just be like current BRS/ZG/AQ20, where the rest simply can't enter.
I have no idea how that'll affect class division, especially as class spec will fill a more detailed role. If there are 4 mobs, you can bring 4 protection warriors, of which 3 will be picking their nose @ the next bossfight where only 1 tank is needed, or you could bring 2 protection warriors, 1 protection paladin and a feral druid for example.
At the next fight, where only 1 tank is needed, the paladin will still be blessing and will assist on the healing, though not as good as his holy buddies, still adequate with the right gear. The druid could be in her cat form in the melee DPS group, increasing that whole group's damage.
My guild's fond of hybrid classes. Even the prot warriors carry dps gear, priests can go shadow if not needed healing, and druids tend not to wear the same gear in any 2 consecutive fights.
For party makeup, since we have many off-specs who can gear on-spec if need be, we go by "who shows up? Ok, where do we need to put you?" We choose who we raid with, not what we raid with. I have a hunch with less ability to fill a raid with the right people for any boss fight in TBC, the swiss-army-classes will have a comeback as their hybrid selves.
For party makeup, since we have many off-specs who can gear on-spec if need be, we go by "who shows up? Ok, where do we need to put you?" We choose who we raid with, not what we raid with. I have a hunch with less ability to fill a raid with the right people for any boss fight in TBC, the swiss-army-classes will have a comeback as their hybrid selves.
My old guild used the whole "minimum required" strategy. As in 5 tanks for a core pack, 3 tanks for the Panther boss, 3-4 warlocks for Garr, etc. We tried to plan ahead for the whole instance. After that, we tried to keep a class from being over-populated. 11 paladins is a tad too much (our record for any one class).
But really, the game is flexible enough that once you learn the encounter and are geared sufficiently for the encounter, a healthy mix of anything will pass the event boss.
As for 9 classes, it won't change composition much. They might get added to the minimums for a given encounter, but really, it'll just be trying to fit them in as necessary.
But really, the game is flexible enough that once you learn the encounter and are geared sufficiently for the encounter, a healthy mix of anything will pass the event boss.
As for 9 classes, it won't change composition much. They might get added to the minimums for a given encounter, but really, it'll just be trying to fit them in as necessary.
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But really, the game is flexible enough that once you learn the encounter and are geared sufficiently for the encounter, a healthy mix of anything will pass the event boss.
Min-maxing is certainly possible to find the perfect raid makeup per boss, but the game is designed that you can get through most encounters with whoever decides to login.
I am in a hardcore/casual guild and our raid composition varies wildly. Certain bosses die faster on certain nights, but we never need to change our strategy based on how many of what classes we have.
My last raiding guild had very experienced leaders. They knew the ideal composition for a given raid and what alternate classes could fill in roles. They also knew exactly what everyone needed to do for each boss and you did it or got kicked out of the guild.
When raids formed, anyone could join up to a point and then they only took classes that would balance the raid. We hardly had problems because their preparation was so thorough and their tactics so good. Frankly, it was just about optimal, although addmittedly some people were tyrannical.
When raids formed, anyone could join up to a point and then they only took classes that would balance the raid. We hardly had problems because their preparation was so thorough and their tactics so good. Frankly, it was just about optimal, although addmittedly some people were tyrannical.
25 man raiding will be much different from 40 man. having only 25 slots available will force you to select better. not only will there be several players of each class, but it will be important to have different specs. shadow priests to improve lock dps and regen mana, feral druids in the melee dps groups etc.
also, shamans/paladins will be added to the mix. some encounters will be designed to require paladins and/or shamans, so your raid will need both. currently, this was not really done, because either horde or alli would get an unfair advantage. some fights do require certain classes and this will be extended to shamen/pallies now that they are both available to both factions.
our raid currently has:
- 2 def tanks as mts
- 2-4 dps warriors that off-tank on large groups
- about 12-16 healers (2 per group), made up of 4-8 priests, 3-6 druids and 4-6 paladins
- the rest is dps (mages, rogues, locks, hunters)
some fights make strict requirements, but not for the whole raid. for example, when learning vael, it's easier to have 8 priests. or on patch, you need 3 tanks. or 2 mc priests for razu etc.
after you've got a fight down, it's much more flexible.
also, shamans/paladins will be added to the mix. some encounters will be designed to require paladins and/or shamans, so your raid will need both. currently, this was not really done, because either horde or alli would get an unfair advantage. some fights do require certain classes and this will be extended to shamen/pallies now that they are both available to both factions.
our raid currently has:
- 2 def tanks as mts
- 2-4 dps warriors that off-tank on large groups
- about 12-16 healers (2 per group), made up of 4-8 priests, 3-6 druids and 4-6 paladins
- the rest is dps (mages, rogues, locks, hunters)
some fights make strict requirements, but not for the whole raid. for example, when learning vael, it's easier to have 8 priests. or on patch, you need 3 tanks. or 2 mc priests for razu etc.
after you've got a fight down, it's much more flexible.
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