Twinks, what's thei purpose?Follow

It seems to me Blizzard could implement at least two solutions to this problem.

The first is obvious, but would not cure the entire problem. When I first started playing this game earlier this year, I was utterly stunned to learn that enchants are not level restricted. This should be a no-brainer, and it is consistent with the level restrictions and soul-binding that are already implemented in order to address these issues. It won't stop twinks but it will knock them down a peg.

A second solution is a little harder to implement, but would make BGs a lot more even. It would involve no longer basing your BG on level, but rather a composite score based on your level, stats, and abilities. It would count the "best" item for every position on your toon or in its inventory or bank account - no hiding it. This would probably stop twinking entirely. If you twinked out your level 19, you would just be stuck in BGs with people five or ten levels higher than you and who can match you even wearing greens. It would also help separate the T2/3 raiders from the green 60s as well.

An earlier poster noted he never sees newbies in low level battlegrounds. Unfortunately, he has his chickens and eggs backwards. They don't go precisely because of the twinks. Maybe once or twice, but they quickly realize they can't win. No one likes to fight hopeless battles.

I will admit, any proponent of twinking I see I'm going to immediately group in a "twink crowd." I was projecting the attitudes and opinions of others onto you. This may be flawed, and I'll certainly give you a fair chance to prove that you're different than most twinks, but I do this sort of out of a lazy practicality.

There several arguements that keep reappearing in defence of twinking. All of these arguemnts have failed to defend it.

A few examples are"

"Low level cahracters are just going to level up out of the bracket anyways." What about characters who like to break from leveling with a a few weeks of BG (I know I do), what about the alts of higher level characters who are taking a break from 60 bg, what about people who genuinely enjoy the scenarios of lower level bg?

"Everyone can twink." I don't dispute this, although the amount of resources (not effort, resources) that it requires to twink could be used as an arguement agaisnt twinking it's not one I'll stand on. Any 19 who knows what they are doing can get the moeny together to make a reasonable twink, but this doesn't mean the arguement holds in the slgihtest. The problem with twinking is not that not everyone can do it, it's not that it's unfair. The problem is it breaks the game, it changes it.

"It's my $15 a month, why can't I play however I feel like?" The 'because I feel like it arguement' holds up in a lot of sitautions. If someone questions you about why you ate at chiles and not mcdonalds you can say 'because I feel like it.' If someone questions you on your dress you can say 'because I feel like it.' This however does not apply when other people are involved and your decisions affect them. You cannot steal 'because you feel like it,' because it negatively impacts someone else. Likewise "my money, my game," does not apply when you hurt the bg for 19 other people who are also paying to play. Though were you to cover their $285 a month you certainly could twink legitimately.

"Twinks at 19 aren't as bad as tier 3 at 60." True, but how is this supposed to be a defence? Lying is not as bad as stealing, ergo lying is ok? Flawed logic.

There are others, but these are some popular ones. I'm willing to listen and respond to arguement I have not heard before and any new insight on old ones, but I'm tired of others rehashing the same arguements.

No we are similar in this. I enjoy fighting well geared, skilled, and organised oppoents. All of these are fine.

I do not enjoy fighting broken oppoents, or playing as a broken character, or playing broken agaisnt broken.

I'll have a pretty good time in WSG if I go in as a level 16 with greens in a pug against some well geared 19s who are in a guild together. I won't have a good time with a bunch of twinks, be they on the enemy, on my side, or even if I were the twink.


The difference between someone who is any combination of being well geared, skilled, or organised and a twink is like the difference between playing battleship against someone who is good at opponent psychology, knows where you probably placed your ships, and has a decent amount of experience and then palying someone who is simply looking at your board. It's not fun, even if you happen to beat the guy looking at your board it's still not fun. It's not challenging, one person has broken the game, and thus changed it. That is what twinking does.


Twinks are not well geared oppoents, they are not suped up characters, they are broken characters that no longer act liek the classes they are based on.

For example lets use an example of a normal warrior and rogue. Lets pretend that well geared rogues have about 3/5 the hp of a well geared warrior. This hp difference is part of what defines their roles. Now when enchants are factored in each class has the same hp added, changing the proportions. Now rogues have 6/7 the hp warriors have, the game has now changed. Others things happen as well, like the obvious difference in damage scaling with melee characters and casters. Rogues go up a lot in damage, but mages and warlocks don't, their roles have changed, and the game has changed.

This is why BGs are ruined. People log in the play world of warcraft and get a mutilated game instead. rogue:pries=!twink rogue:twink priest.

How is this not a contradiction. Many times I hear a lot of twinks mention "looking for a challenge" in some form or another in their defense of twinking. But everytime I end up confused.

You give yourself an extreme advantage because you want a challenge? What?

I think it is somewhat noble that you say you live for a challenge in BG. I also think, and this will offend you, that you are lying (though not delibrately). You could list as your motive that you twink to be as competitive as possible, but not that you want a challenge. The terms are mutually exclusive. People twink because they are looking for the easy road. Of course no one likes to think of, or have others think, of themselves as wanting to take the easy road.

Again, contradiction? You say you like impossible, then why are you twinking? Shouldn't you be going into BGs with green gear and not fully lveled if you really liek a challenge? Shouldn't you at least not be giving yourself a huge advantage if you really like a challenge?

If I told you that I enjoy a challenging game of baseball, but always come to a game with a corked bat, a greased ball, and pumped on steroid woudl you think of me as a hypocrit?

Pretty much, it's meant to be rude and make a point.

I'll be candid, I'm not being nice to you. I take it as a personal insult when a twink enters a BG. It says to me "I only care about myself, ***** 19 other people."



Can anyone really say that anyone besides the person who is twinking wants the twink there? The normal players on the enemy sure don't, they get slaughtered. The normal players on the twink's team don't want him, he just hogs the glory and generally doesn't play liek a team player. The enemy twink players don't want him there, he's competition. His allied twink players don't want him there, he steals their glory and hk's. I'm mostly certain the reason most twinks defend twinking is so they can justify themselves doing it. They really don't want anyone else to twink, they want to be the sole twink. A guess, not evidenced by much besides probable selfish tendancies.

So what you are saying that it's also wrong for tier 3 to go into a BG with their UBER equips???? Flawed logic.

Allegory, aren't you done with your long winded rebuttals on twinking???????

Just refer them to this thread and call it a day!!!!!!!

edit: I don't understand how you can compliment Poldaran on having a level head, but then you admit to taking this personally and coming close to insults with another poster.

Edited, Dec 6th 2006 7:14pm by Webjunky

It is immoral. There is no way around it.
Why? Because it simply was never meant to be that way. A level 19 Rogue should never have close to 2K health. The class wasn't meant to be that way. Nor was Warriors meant to have a procc that have 100 more strength at level 19. By twinking in this way, you cheat. You make the hard work of those who doesn't have a goldfarming main into a joke.

You ruin the whole BG experience for all those who does not Twink, and you claim it is a completely moral thing to do? I agree with Al in this. I am simply too tired to start writing long posts, with damn good and persuasive arguments, so I trust Al will take care of that for me. Just remember that Al isn't alone. There are alot of us that share the EXACT same sentiments.

Edit:
Webjunky, ********* of exclamation points and question marks doesn't make you more credible.

Edited, Dec 6th 2006 7:21pm by NorthAI

I guess I can see two trains of thought here as to why someone would twink.

1) Someone who just wants to have fun in the battlegrounds, and that includes winning and playing competitively in a team game. This is someone who expects a challenge and expects to give a challenge. This person might expect to face other twinks as well as some newbs.

2) Someone who wants to twink purely to gain an advantage over newer or under geared players. This person likes the feeling of a killing blow, no matter how cheaply they obtained it. This person doesn't care to work too hard for a win, but just wants to see how high they can rack up the HKs. This person probably expects to face a lot of new players with a smattering of other twinks that only get in the way of the squishy lvl 13 clothies.


My problem with your whole argument Allegory, is that you consistently put me and other plays into category 2. I don't twink, because I don't even have the time to farm for my own gold to do it, but I've thought about it and the idea of category number 1 appeals to me, as a gamer. I understand you think the brackets are imbalanced, or broken, and I agree with you.

Blizzard has acknowledged the twinking community and has said that they don't want to discourage them. However, I think they also see the imbalanced nature of the twink brackets. You can deduct this from the fact that they are going to implement a matchmaking system and they are level restricting ALL BC enchants (amen to that!).

Good, carry on then. Just making sure you're the real deal here.

No no, if you're having a good time, please go on. I think I'll just quietly vacate this thread at this point in time.

May you prove your points well and wield the mightiest of flame resistant shields.


:p

I have a twink L19 hunter with 150 FA/ENG. I made him a twink because I had about 200 Gold on a player I don’t play any more on a server I don’t play on anymore. Once in a while I'll log into said server for some L19 WSG action. I figured, why let the gold go to waste and invested into something I found fun. Sure it gave me an advantage, but I’m paying for my enjoyment right? And if my enjoyment includes being at the top of the kill list in WSG at L19 then who are you (anyone) to tell me to stop? I like to PVP. Red=dead and if twinking makes that easier then sign me up. If the other player logs in frustration then that’s an added bonus.

Also, I think our definitions on Twinks differ abit.

Unless the character have the true End-Game enchants (+15Agi/Crusader/Lifesteal and 1.5k worth of health they usually wouldn't have) I don't really consider them Twinks. I see people with almost all blues, and some fairly normal enchants, and I consider them completely fair. They can manage that without ruining the BGs. They can play really skillfully, and win, or play badly and lose. It is the End-Game enchants that annoys me, and ruins the BGs.



See? Differing definitions. What you just described is what I call a PvP Character. It is actually attainable with a little effort without calling in the level 60 bank. AND a PvP Character can be beaten without going Zerg on them. IF you have skill. If you do go Dual Crusader with Librams you become a Twink. And that is where skill ends. And thus ruins the fun.

I know I said I'd drop out of this, but....




Actually, I have read that twinking is an

UNINTENDED

phenomenon. They recognize it as being a hobby and has developed it's own culture.

They also see no reason to try to discourage this kind of behavior. Apparently they see no harm in it. I have seen many, many blue posts saying that Blizzard think it's ok. I have also read some that have said they won't support it because it is unintended. Another words, we probably won't be seeing any features put into the game that will be tailored for the twinking player base.





Edited, Dec 6th 2006 9:04pm by Webjunky

Why should I respond? You didn't read my post closely enough to see where I said I 'm not a twink by the strict definition. I enjoy playing against others' twinks; I do not have any.

So long as you're talking past me, no point in trying to talk to you.

I don't have much to add except that I agree that it makes it harder to enjoy BG's with all the twinks. I'm fairly new to the game and just hit 40 on my first character, but I do what I can to have decent equipment and make money as I go. I've been told that the gear I have is good enough to be considered "semi-twinked" for my level. That doesn't stop the real twinks from one or two shotting me in the BG's.

A level 33 rogue should not be able to take down two 39s, especially when they display a lack of skill in playing the class. I have little respect for players who use excessive gold and enchants to compensate for their inability to play this game, and I have zero respect for the ones who brag about doing so. I may not be an expert on PVP, but I can easily see the difference between skill and gear. When the opponent makes rookie mistakes, but then hits me once or twice and I die... that's not fun to me.

Webjunky was the allure too strong? It's ok to dive into the darkside every now and then.

Ultimately this is what I would prefer, but I am satisfied with gear matching. Twinks really should never have existed in the first place. It's fine for a 60 to want to make a 19 BG alt and get him the best gear, but these crazy enchants should have been level capped form the beginning. Had Blizzard had foresight we wouldn't be in this mess.

Gear matching though is the solution. Level restriction I don't believe really has a chance. People have been given a task of twinking, and they aren't going to let it go without a fight.

Actually I read all your post very carefully the first time. Then I went back and read them all again to see if I missed something. You made one reference to your relation to twinking in your second post. This was the only sentence form which anyone could infer your status with clues other than syntax and connotation.

"I’m not a twink by the strict definition."

That is what you said. This statement is phrased in such a way as to mean you are a twink as interpreted by an average person familiar with colloquial phrasings. For example "my team didn't technically lose," is generally someone saying "my team lost," in a euphimistic fashion. "I don't own a ferrari per se," is "I don't own a ferrari," said euphimistically.

Of course in all these sitautions literally interpreting the phrase yields a different result, but english is often too butchered to ever be taken literally.

I went with the most probable interpretation, I'm sorry I was wrong. However I am confused even more now, because you say you are talking about 30-39 and 40-49. There are, just about, no twinks in the the brackets above 29. How can you say you enjoy fighting twinks in these brackets when here twinking means much less and there are few to no twinks?

I pretty much agree. But even if you aren't pissing off all 19 other people in a wsg match, you're probably pissing off at least the 10 on the other side. You can cut this number down further with various situations, but you're still pissing off a good 30-35%% mininum with every time a twink enters a WSG match.

Edited, Dec 7th 2006 7:17am by Allegory