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New 5 second cast rule.Follow

#27 Sep 24 2004 at 1:05 PM Rating: Decent
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151 posts
Quote:
No MMORPG has mobs that follow every single player rule. Otherwise the game wouldn't be varied, etc. etc. etc. and so forth.


Mobs don't have to follow every player rule, but the new 5 second rule should apply to caster mobs as well. As a lvl 14 mage last night fighting lvl 14 seers I had to use a mana potion each fight or I was dead. The mob regening mana while I'm not is poor design and hopefully Bliz will fix it.

The reason this rule was put in was not to make int more useful in game. Previous puch you could load a mage up with +dam gear and cast rank 1 spells and still do a large amount of damage while expending no mana. Mages were gaining more mana per tick than they were expending. Bliz needs to make +dam gear use a percentage system instead of a flat number (8% instead of +28.)


#28 Sep 24 2004 at 8:19 PM Rating: Good
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531 posts
Azuarc,
Thanks for the post, I hadn't actually seen that official statement on the rule but feel in kind of enforces what I was saying if not 100%, then at least in part.

Right now I'm focusing more on the Hunter and Paladin forum boards, though I was reading the posts about the name change rule and the forced server issues.

I'm planning on running 2 accounts at the same time using the above mentioned classes to duo. While I know every class can solo to varying degrees, I also saw what a difference another person can make in the game, especially when doing certain quests. The reason I chose these classes is I feel there is a good balance of abilities and utility. I know Warrior and Priest is probably a strong pair but would rather avoid it anyway. I could always try it later.

Anyway, I feel this combo is strong because it's like having a group of 3. 2 tanks and the Hunter itself for DPS. The Paladin is a healer too so that's pretty good IMO.

Stumpy,
I'm sure you're making a good point but I think I'm missing it. Could you better explain how you feel the 5 second cast rule interacts with the +damage gear? I understand that you're saying mages were regening more mana than they were using, but not getting the connection with the rule. Even if they don't regen mana at all with this change(because of the constant casting they are doing), EVERY other mana using class is actually being hurt more than mages by this change. I don't think the rule was directed specifically at Mages if that's what you're trying to imply.

#29 Sep 27 2004 at 11:03 AM Rating: Decent
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151 posts
The change was directed at damage dealing casters. I would say mage only, but shadow priests had the same advantage. My fire mage had +228 to fire last push. That makes a rank 1 fireball extremely effective. Virtually no casting delay and expending little mana while doing alot of damage. I was almost regening as much mana as I was using every fight.

To those that think this helps in PvP it doesn't. Mages and priests are the first targets in groups. You are normally dead or the "enemy" is dead before you run out of mana. If I'm fighting someone one on one, I never run out of mana.

Fighting elite mobs in a group is where the change hurts most. And yes, you will be fighting alot of them. They are not just in instances. With multiple elites beating on the tank, a priests mana goes fast now. My new mage (made a new one to see the difference) does fine as long as I don't chain cast. The problem comes in when your group is fighting three or more at once. The mage has to let loose or the tank is dead, followed by the priest, and then everyone else.

My views on the change aren't a theory. I've done instances with my 56 mage, 51 priest, and my new 23 mage. My new mage did Chok Sul last night, which is elites but not an instance. We wiped three times due to the priest running out of mana. I spent the last half of almost every battle using a wand waiting for my spells to light up so I could cast again. Party setup:

1) Night Elf Druid - would have rather had a warrior tank, but none available and Bliz says bear form can tank.

2) Dwarf Priest

3) Night Elf Hunter - would have rather had another rogue or another mage, but it's not his fault his class isn't finished

4) Gnome Rogue

5) Gnome Mage - me (Ebu beta 2)

This is not a bad group. I wouldn't go into BRD with this group, but it is effective. Although I would have liked a little different setup, it took 45 minutes to get these people together.

The change doesn't effect other casters as much as it does priests and mages. Hybrid classes can fall back on melee DPS if they run out of mana. The change just increases downtime.





Edited, Mon Sep 27 13:42:57 2004 by StumpyWSF
#30 Sep 27 2004 at 12:58 PM Rating: Decent
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1) Night Elf Druid - would have rather had a warrior tank, but none available and Bliz says bear form can tank.

2) Dwarf Priest

3) Night Elf Hunter - would have rather had another rogue or another mage, but it's not his fault his class isn't finished

4) Gnome Rogue

5) Gnome Mage - me (Ebu beta 2)



i'd say thats all good but wheres the tank. warriors will probly be one of the most needed players in the game.
#31 Sep 27 2004 at 2:08 PM Rating: Decent
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151 posts
Nice job of reading. A druid in bear form is a tank. Blue posts from Bliz have said a druid in bear form can tank. They have tested it internally and it works. If I wanted to wait 2 hours for a defensive warrior, I would have never quit FFXI.
#32 Sep 27 2004 at 2:57 PM Rating: Decent
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6,678 posts
I've had time to "adapt" to the changes, and while I am able to play still, I find the game far more annoying. It's not a game so much as a process of mental calculations now as to what I can do now and what would be better waiting more than 5 seconds (which means put it off as long as possible.) This rushing/procrastinating model is making my groups very uncomfortable around me, but it's the way I'm apparently supposed to be playing.
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Only the exceptions can be exceptional.
#33 Sep 27 2004 at 3:21 PM Rating: Decent
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151 posts
I didn't post here for 3 days because I played all I could before I came back to his topic. You know things are bad when the four instance groups I have been in have all /suggest Bliz change the new 5 second rule. Even the non casters don't like it, because it increases their downtime when grouped.
#34 Sep 27 2004 at 3:51 PM Rating: Decent
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1,430 posts
Not sure if you guys read this but this is from Eno, the lead designer of WoW~

Quote:
Reasons why the change was made

1) At higher levels spirit regeneration becomes so large it becomes very difficult to balance mana costs of spells against the spirit regen. The regen gets fast enough so that you can regenerate the mana back from a casting in one "tick".

2) The new system differentiates Int from Spirit much more. There are concrete reasons why each is effective in different cases. High spirit is good for long extended fights, Int is better when you want to cast is shorter bursts. Under the old system, all spirit did was in effect extend your mana pool.

3) Spirit used to be so effective as to make the mana efficiency balance of various spells irrelevant. If you rarely run out of mana, then why does it matter to cast a long casting time spell with better mana efficiency?

4) It does add more strategy to how to cast spells. In most fights, you can ignore the 5 second rule, since all that matters is your ability to finish the monster off. In longer fights, you can pace your casting to conserve your mana.

5) Yes, Mages now cannot kill as many monsters over an extended period of time. This is intentional, and brings mages more inline with other classes. Mages can kill monsters much faster than any other class, this is balanced against they have some additional downtime after the fight.

6) We have always intened for every class to spend some time in combat doing non-casting related activities. Casters do decent melee damage and have wands to supplement your casting with. The new system allows you to still burst cast, but there is a penalty attached to this sort of gameplay.

Lastly, we have tested the game pretty extensively using the new rules and are pretty comfortable with how it plays. Please try to adapt, because at this time we do not have any intention of un-doing the change.

-Eno


Now questions arise when it comes to this system: Are you using the proper amount of spirit/intel equipment to increase mana regen and mana itself? Are you using proper food/drink for your level? Do you carry potions and do others? Do you melee? Do you try to avoid chain casting and casting spells not needed? Did you spec yourself with mana related talents?

I'm not accusing anybody of anything here and I have yet to experience anything mid to high level. If you said yes to all of these questions then Blizzard really needs to fix up the 5 second rule but if you avoided something, give it a try now and see if it helps.
#35 Sep 27 2004 at 4:36 PM Rating: Decent
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151 posts
Redmoon, you obviously have never played a mage at high level. As to why you posted the infamous Eno garbage post, I have no idea. We are beta testers, we read every Bliz post about a new patch.

Maybe you should go back and reread what I wrote. The majority of high level mages used +dam gear. Mages weren't overpowered solo or in groups before this change. This is the 3rd consecutive patch mages were hurt. Eno's post makes no sense and you would know it if you played the game at high level. Mages are now the only class that has to rest after 2 equal level mobs.

As to the questions you asked. Mages summon food and water, so we always have it. I spent 360g buying int gear for my mage, while pushing his buffed mana pool to over 7k, no help. Mana potions are on a large timer, little help. You try to melee a lvl 50 elite and tell me about the experience. Wands are a joke. As far as using talents goes; I shouldn't have to pick talents to fix my class. Talents are supposed to enhance your class, not make it worth playing.

Mages are the biggest DPS and AoE class in the game. Get into a BRD group and try to not chain cast. After everyone is dead, you can start looking for another group, because that one will boot you.

This isn't just mages "whining" about another nerf. It has made playing a mage unenjoyable and tedious at high level or in groups for elite quests. Anyway, my mage is now benched. Bring on the warlock.

Azuarc, I haven't logged on to my priest much since the patch. I've partied with enough to know better ^^ I feel for you.

Edited, Mon Sep 27 17:38:41 2004 by StumpyWSF
#36 Sep 27 2004 at 5:05 PM Rating: Decent
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1,430 posts
I think I need to repeat this since I think its worth saying: I do not care what level you are or what you have achieved in the game since it will become mute come retail. I'm only giving insight on this issue by using whatever info is availible to me.

Quote:
Redmoon, you obviously have never played a mage at high level. As to why you posted the infamous Eno garbage post, I have no idea. We are beta testers, we read every Bliz post about a new patch.

Maybe you should go back and reread what I wrote. The majority of high level mages used +dam gear. Mages weren't overpowered solo or in groups before this change. This is the 3rd consecutive patch mages were hurt. Eno's post makes no sense and you would know it if you played the game at high level. Mages are now the only class that has to rest after 2 equal level mobs.

As to the questions you asked. Mages summon food and water, so we always have it. I spent 360g buying int gear for my mage, while pushing his buffed mana pool to over 7k, no help. Mana potions are on a large timer, little help. You try to melee a lvl 50 elite and tell me about the experience. Wands are a joke. As far as using talents goes; I shouldn't have to pick talents to fix my class. Talents are supposed to enhance your class, not make it worth playing.

Mages are the biggest DPS and AoE class in the game. Get into a BRD group and try to not chain cast. After everyone is dead, you can start looking for another group, because that one will boot you.

This isn't just mages "whining" about another nerf. It has made playing a mage unenjoyable and tedious at high level or in groups for elite quests. Anyway, my mage is now benched. Bring on the warlock.


I sense much anger from this post...*brings out a fire extinguisher*

As for stating that Eno's post is garbage, keep in mind that he is the lead designer of the game itself. Whatever he says goes so I take everything he says to heart. Might I also add that the beta test forums is filled with so much whine I could open a bar. Info from devs gets lost in all the mess. Just because a blue tag is on a thread doesn't mean its important info because lately I noticed that Blizzard has been going on the defensive.

Also, you stated something interesting....beta tester. You are not playing the final product and saying the majority use this and the majority use that will matter not. Hell by retail mages might turn into nothing more the food/drink creators. All I'm stating is either do one of a few things it you are having problems: Learn to deal with it, try something different from the majority, make a /suggestion or just give up on the class and test something else. Eno stated that he and the team has tested the change, enjoyed it and concluded that this is what the magic system should be like with a little tweak here and there. Now either he's lying or you're missing something. Or maybe the system is just bugged...*shrugs*

As for talents, there are a few abilities that looks like it would help, whether its increasing the dmg output of your wand, increasing mana, or increasing criticals on certain spells. Now whether you took advantage of this is unclear to me. Even though talents as you said are not supposed to make your class worthwhile, they sure do help.

PS: While I won't question your knowledge, its best not to question mines. Also I will say one more thing: I will not listen to people who has problems with their class and complain for fear of bias. Me no like bias *prances around*

Edited, Mon Sep 27 18:26:16 2004 by Redmoonxl
#37 Sep 27 2004 at 5:26 PM Rating: Excellent
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531 posts
Redmoon, thanks for posting that, it does confirm what I was saying as well as what Stumpy was saying.

Mages do seem to be the class that was hurt the most with this change, I'll say that much.

Quote:
Mages are now the only class that has to rest after 2 equal level mobs.
Mages are probably the class that can kill two equal mobs the fastest also. With the downtime I would think the times average out. I did hear of an interesting video on the official site that I haven't been able to open yet where a Warrior was showing how powerful a berserker build could be though(killed mobs and a VERY fast rate). Anyway, my point is that if you dump all your mana very quickly, you'll pay for that having to regen mana. Yes, it's true that that wasn't an issue before, but Mages must be coming off as too powerful.

Warlocks are a class that everyone has been saying needs a lot of work. If you lower the power-level of Mages, suddenly Warlocks don't seem so bad anymore. I'm sure Warlocks will still need some tuning though.

Quote:
Mages and priests are the first targets in groups.


With mage's power-levels being tuned down a bit, this might be less of a problem, as they might not be perceived as great of a threat. I know you said Mages weren't over-powered before the patch. But, if they never run out of mana and are the best DPS in the game, as you said, they should be the number one targets.

I don't envy Blizzard the jobs they must do, I just want to be playing the damn game already. :P

Good points though Stumpy. I think we were both right.
#38 Sep 27 2004 at 6:50 PM Rating: Decent
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151 posts
With this change mages have become one of the worst solo classes because of downtime. Warlocks, although they kill slow, can kill mob after mob without resting. You don't really notice the warlocks lack of new pets and unfinished state untill after lvl 30.

As far as being "right," I could really care less. I try to provide opinion backed up by game play experience. Anyone can analyze what they read and imagine how it will play out.

This will actually be my last post about the beta. The stress test was a good thing for Blizzard, and I'm glad more people were able to experience the game. However, unless you reached at least level 40 , maybe higher, you really have no idea how the game truely plays and what talents do and don't do for your class. Anyone with MMO experience knows the early levels are more forgiving and you are just getting a "feel" for how your class plays.

Anyway, it was nice seeing Azuarc didn't like the change much either. I know he has played alot and has experienced both soloing and grouping through the majority of the game. Like I said, every group I have been in, even the melee players dislike this change. Like I said before, do some of the lvl 50+ elite quests and then give your opinion on this change. Nothing like watching every other class kill while you are constantly stopping to drink.

Edited, Mon Sep 27 19:52:47 2004 by StumpyWSF
#39 Sep 27 2004 at 10:27 PM Rating: Decent
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6,678 posts
Quote:
Now questions arise when it comes to this system: Are you using the proper amount of spirit/intel equipment to increase mana regen and mana itself? Are you using proper food/drink for your level? Do you carry potions and do others? Do you melee? Do you try to avoid chain casting and casting spells not needed? Did you spec yourself with mana related talents?


-What is the "proper amount" of spirit/intel equipment? Are you implying that I have crappy gear, or simply am pursuing the absolute wrong gear? I have what I have acquired. That has worked for me up until now.
-Food/drink don't help during a fight. That's what this issue is regarding - running out of mana during a fight, or not having the time between fights to sit and eat/drink. Potions are on a two minute reuse timer and aren't incredibly helpful, even if you are an alchemist more skilled than your level would belie.
-I melee. I melee constantly, or use my wand.
-You have to *TRY TO* chain cast, not avoid it. If I'm going to cast 3 spells in the next 15 seconds, it's best if I can cast them all in a 5 second block so their "downtimes" are overlapping. Of course, then I end up just standing there looking stupid for the other 10. (And getting 3 swings of my staff in.)
-I get talents I feel my character should have. When you start requiring people to get certain talents, they have stopped being talents and have become unobvious ways to make your character inferior to everyone else. Talents are supposed to indicate a play preference -- other than competent and efficient vs. unwitting or independent.


Quote:
Azuarc, I haven't logged on to my priest much since the patch. I've partied with enough to know better ^^ I feel for you.


At least there's one person I don't have to convince.
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Only the exceptions can be exceptional.
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