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Is this game for people who don't want to work hard?Follow

#1 Jul 06 2004 at 6:28 PM Rating: Decent
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11,852 posts

This is not intended to flame the beta players or the prospective players of WoW who do not fit within the description that will follow.

I am an avid MMO player, a current FFXI player and a future WoW player (come on, open beta, lets go!).

I have a lot of time on my hands at work and I have done a lot or reading of forums on WoW. There isn't much on allakhazam, but on the Blizzard WoW Beta site there are thousands of threads already.

I seem to see a trend.

The people who play WoW don't seem to be previous MMO players. The standards they expect are quite different.

In traditional MMOs, leveling has been a grind. WoW promised to address this. Theoretically, this is a great idea. However, WoW players seem to think that this should mean that every level should take an hour and they seem to complain endlessly when this is not the case.

The last major "push" slowed leveling. Some threads I have read have calculated that it would take as much as 240 RL hours (10 days of actual time spent playing) to reach the highest level currently attainable (L45). Then, another 240 RL hours to reach the expected release limit (L60). That would be 20 online days, or 120 days at 4 hours of play per day to reach the max level.

I don't think that these people understand the MMO principle of having to work for achievement. No MMO would last if you could get to the end-game in a week or a month.

If you want to reach the end-game in a week or a month, might I suggest a single player RPG? Diablo II will have you "UB3R" in no time, as it only takes 20 hours or so to get through the whole game once.

I wish I had been chosen for Beta so I could have some real experience to back up my rant. Anyway, I wonder what actual players think of my arguement here.
#2 Jul 06 2004 at 8:37 PM Rating: Good
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6,678 posts
A lot of these people you are talking about are people who played hardcore Diablo on-line and lost level 80+ characters repeatedly. They understand the value of time invested in a game. They just believe it should be invested differently.

Other players are MMO whiners who got used to the speed being faster than Everquest, FFXI, or whatever, and suddenly it's slowed down for them. They had the "burden" of the treadmill off their shoulders for a bit, and are complaining when they are handed half the weight of before.

There are also people who haven't done either, and don't understand what they are in for.

And above all else, then there are people who like to whine. They will whine loud, they will whine frequently, and they will whine about anything they can think about and whine some more. Never use the Blizzard forums for a gauge of the playerbase. You are seeing an irrepresentative microcosm.
____________________________
Only the exceptions can be exceptional.
#3 Jul 06 2004 at 9:02 PM Rating: Good
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206 posts
If i remember right, FFXI had a lot of mmog newbies too. I have talked to so many people who didnt even realize the difference between a ls and a guild/clan. I would start explaining what some games have done for guilds/clans and theyd get depressed.

But anyway. I would drop this game in a second if i could get to the end game within 3 months. What a waist of time that would be. The real fun in any mmorpg is the journey to the end game.

These are ex D2 players that gotten into beta now, and are running rampant on the forums. they expect to hop in a portal, kill a few cows and be lvl 99 with uber gear. Dont pay any attention to them cuz more then likely they wont be able to get the game or pay for the monthly fee. Thats why they play d2, cuz its free.

If you ever have done a beta before, you know you can expect many kinds of people. my favorite of these people are the following

Hyperinflated egocentric betateers (HEB) - They play the beta, and play, and play, and play... And for every hour they play, their heads inflate that much more. You can tell these people by the sarcastic replys to questions, the idiotic responses to statements they werent directly included in, snide remarks... all of which are usually followed by "I was in phase # of the beta."

Beta Poppers or beta gypsies - These people pop around from beta to beta, just to play a game for free for a while, then they move on. I cant say much about this one, cuz i was one for a while. I was just looking for a good game to play. i did find one, then boom, sunset.

Forum *****/trolls or "The Vocal Minority" - These people are on the forums more then playing the game. They yell for certain things to be done, to be "fixed", to be added or deleted... And in most cases, what they suggest will make the game worse then before. The smart devs ignore these people... other (usually smaller businesses) will listen and destroy everything they worked for. I know of this happening at least once. These people play the majority roll on the blizzard forums. You will hear a lot of "Change this or im cancelling my acount." or in beta "Change this or this game will suck/im not going to get it."

Those are my 3 favorite. Youll definitly have an encounter with em.

Edited, Tue Jul 6 22:11:22 2004 by Alekan
#4 Jul 06 2004 at 11:22 PM Rating: Default
I'm completely amazed online companies don't weed out those losers that have no real experience gaming molrpg's. How could someone that just played Diablo 2 be invited to a BEta? Thats insane.
When Everquest first went into Beta you had to sign up and apply asnwering a 80 questions test. I have 20 years experience DMing and playing AD&D. I didn't get invited for that EQ Beta and Im an adult!
#5 Jul 07 2004 at 12:50 AM Rating: Decent
Its NOT too easy. Fast != easy imho. Lineage2 prescriped to time = difficulty and I dont buy that one bit.
#6 Jul 08 2004 at 5:14 PM Rating: Decent
Quote:
I'm completely amazed online companies don't weed out those losers that have no real experience gaming molrpg's. How could someone that just played Diablo 2 be invited to a BEta? Thats insane.
When Everquest first went into Beta you had to sign up and apply asnwering a 80 questions test. I have 20 years experience DMing and playing AD&D. I didn't get invited for that EQ Beta and Im an adult!

even adults have hissy fits.....
#7 Jul 08 2004 at 5:34 PM Rating: Decent
You said it all man. I've been playing FFXI for like 8 months and know what its like to work for your levels. I wouldn't mind a little easier time leveling but as you said dont make the game beatable in a couple months or so. I would so wish to be able to beta test because i have lost all interest in FFXI. This month i will be distrubiting my gear and money to LS and stop playing game. Also have recruited many to play WOW and for that i would wish blizzard would give me chance to start playing, but if they dont ahh well think i'm gonna play WC3 till i can play WOW.

Just wanted to say nice post

Cant wait to play WOW
#8 Jul 09 2004 at 3:06 AM Rating: Good
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6,730 posts
If guys want to experience a real hamster run play EQ without twinking. Blizard is still playing around with the xp at the moment so it is kind of silly to try to determine how fast you can power play to the end game at the moment.
#9 Jul 09 2004 at 9:29 AM Rating: Decent
I myself and I wish I could play WOW IIIII. :)

I quit playing Star Wars Galaxies but it plain sucks. 2nd try a year later and its still a lame game. I was hoping to get my Smuggler to Master before Space comes out but I gave up. The players and the game is just too lacking compared to EQ and DOAC.

Now IM stuck playing BattleField 1942 till x-mas. Sigh.
Maybe I should start playing DOAC again.
#10 Aug 25 2004 at 9:44 AM Rating: Decent
To reply to your first post, i don't think they'll make the game in a fashion where you can just solo stuff and get through the game in 3 months. I think the leveling will be no faster than any other MMORPG, except that you'll be able to solo without significant downtime. When you look at FFxi, once you got past level 20ish, it got harder and harder if not impossible for certain classes to make xp while soloing. That is partly because you can't take on ennemies that are same level as you, but also because there is crazy downtime between each fight. Plus if you die, loosing 10% a level might be worth a lot of hours soloing.

I'd also like to make another point if you guys want. I read most of the posts on that issue, since it's important to me, and here is what i Blizzard said they'd do with the game :

"Every class will be ABLE to solo"

which should not be mistaken with :

"Every class will be able to solo more efficiently than a party"

i think it has been pretty clear from the begining that Blizzard wanted to address the issue of solo playing vs party playing, but i doubt they'll make the game in a way where you don't need to work to get things or that soloing is easier than partying.

P.S. to those of you that have a grudge against blizzard cause they didn't get picked for the Beta, plz, suck it up. I doubt it mattered whether you played EQ for 8 years, or D&D for 22 years, Blizzard just picked a bunch of different people with different backgrounds. That's all there is to it.


-------------------

Naej (THF 25/NIN 12)
Titan Server
#11 Aug 25 2004 at 9:02 PM Rating: Decent
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136 posts
I am a recent FFXI retire man too. I love the FF game series and FFXI was the type of game I've always wanted to play ever since I laid hands on FFIV (FFII-US). I felt in love with the entire game in one second. Although I was a MMORPG virgin, I managed to learn my way around.

However, I also got my first full time job and got a girlfriend. I realize that I'm not a schoolboy and I don't have the time I once had. I quit because too many hours had to be invested in the game. I was sad when I had to do this since I had formed many many new friendships.

WoW seems to be my personal choice not because it's easier leveling or soloing, but rather because it fits my schedule.

SE why didn't you create FFXI a few years back? T.T
#12 Aug 26 2004 at 3:27 PM Rating: Decent
WoW as i see it right now is the game for me it's not because i don't want a challenge, but I don't have the time i use to when I played EQ and other MMOGs.
What makes this game exciting to me the most is that I can do much more than I can do in EQ when I hit level cap. I can not only kill epic mobs, but I can do something that I've always enjoyed PvP. I can also have the possibilitie to have alts for the first time :) lol
#13 Aug 26 2004 at 11:16 PM Rating: Decent
I personally, even if it doesn't *fit* my schedule, hope that WoW will take a decent amount of time to get my levels high.

Decent as in, more than 3 months, much, much more than 3 months.

I like a game that keeps me interested, however, does not get me bored. What I mean about that is, for example, if a game is overly-hard and it takes 3 days just to gain one-fourth experience worth of level one, I am going to get extremely bored, and quit not so long after half way to level one. Okay, so that was a little sarcasm, I may play the game for a few days, maybe a week or two, and if it didn't get faster, and/or interesting, I'd quit.

However, I want a game that is hard, I don't want it impossible.
If I walk out of town and a level 0 monster comes up to me and kills me one hit, I would hate it. A game that I thought had a good level up-rate, and was an MMORPG was link=http://www.tibia.com]Tibia[/link.

I pray to god that Blizz does not make this like D2. I remember D2, in around a month I had around six-seven, levels 55-85 leveled characters.

Pathetic.
#14 Aug 27 2004 at 5:58 AM Rating: Good
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469 posts
There you go comparing D2 to WoW Creamed.

-28 Respect.
#15 Aug 27 2004 at 10:46 AM Rating: Decent
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6,678 posts
I guess I didn't powergame enough in Diablo, or maybe just because I didn't play on-line, but I was very proud of myself for simply getting one character above level 50. (I stopped playing around 78.)
____________________________
Only the exceptions can be exceptional.
#16 Aug 27 2004 at 2:27 PM Rating: Decent
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136 posts
Quote:
I pray to god that Blizz does not make this like D2. I remember D2, in around a month I had around six-seven, levels 55-85 leveled characters.

Pathetic.

Sole reason I quit D2. It was fun while it lasted though. I look at WoW as a mix of D2 and FFXI with the Warcraft touch (duh, it's WoW /slap me).
#17 Aug 27 2004 at 4:38 PM Rating: Good
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151 posts
Yes, if "people who don't want to work hard" means:

1. Not wanting to sit at a zone line spam killing the same mob type for hours
2. Not wanting to spend 40% of your platime lfg, 40% farming to buy equip you need, 20% actually leveling your toon.
3. Aquiring enough equip and cash from mobs and quests to not have to farm constantly.....ugh
4. Actually talking to a GM that acts like a real person instead of just getting the "I'll look into it message"

Bottom line, WoW is just fun. Plays like a game, not a job.
#18 Aug 27 2004 at 6:19 PM Rating: Good
Quote:
2. Not wanting to spend 40% of your platime lfg, 40% farming to buy equip you need, 20% actually leveling your toon.


Incorrect, sir.(That is, if we are talking about the same game, hehe, FFXI*COUGH*) 50% Level grinding, 25% sweet LFG/LFP action, and another sweet-*** 25% of mob campin/farmin. Oh yeah, and absolutely 0% fun. <--worst part of it all.
#19 Aug 27 2004 at 10:00 PM Rating: Decent
Originally posted by: JAEFo
Quote:

There you go comparing D2 to WoW Creamed.

-28 Respect.


-.-

How can I get my respect back, sir, I ... I just want to be mutual with you again.. \\eyes fill to the brim with tears\\, Oh please, lord JAEFo.. just one more chance??
#20 Aug 27 2004 at 10:02 PM Rating: Good
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469 posts
You must bring me... a shrubbery!
#21 Aug 27 2004 at 10:03 PM Rating: Decent
Crawls on his hands and knees to JAEFo.. \\hands him the shruberry\\.. \\eyes watering\\ is that all, lord?
#22 Aug 27 2004 at 11:24 PM Rating: Decent
Ni!
#23 Aug 28 2004 at 1:14 AM Rating: Decent
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6,678 posts
No, you must...

<consorts with peers>
<chuckles a little>

...you must bring me...ANOTHER SHRUBBERY!
____________________________
Only the exceptions can be exceptional.
#24 Aug 28 2004 at 1:08 PM Rating: Decent
\\looks around for more shruberrys...\\

I don't see any .. Azurac :(

Will you ever forgive me?!

\\sniffles\\

\\covers face with hands\\

\\eyes brim over with tears\\

PLEAASEEEE!!
#25 Aug 29 2004 at 10:18 PM Rating: Decent
Quote:
I don't think that these people understand the MMO principle of having to work for achievement. No MMO would last if you could get to the end-game in a week or a month.

If you want to reach the end-game in a week or a month, might I suggest a single player RPG? Diablo II will have you "UB3R" in no time, as it only takes 20 hours or so to get through the whole game once.


Do you know what "END-GAME" are you talking about? Finished leveling and working for more item kind of end-game?? Or "Hero Class" kind of end-game? Raiding uber mob kind of end-game?

You keep talking about "End-Game", and dragging other games like FF into this "End-Game" definition, but WoW has different approach for character progression. Maybe the hero class is ultra slow to level (so you can so earn it) and thats the "End-Game"(tm)? Who knows?

Edited, Sun Aug 29 23:19:21 2004 by Gobio
#26 Aug 29 2004 at 11:37 PM Rating: Good
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1,430 posts
Well, since this topic keeps recurring, I might as well replay to all that has been said here.

Quote:
I am an avid MMO player, a current FFXI player and a future WoW player (come on, open beta, lets go!).

I have a lot of time on my hands at work and I have done a lot or reading of forums on WoW. There isn't much on allakhazam, but on the Blizzard WoW Beta site there are thousands of threads already.

I seem to see a trend.

The people who play WoW don't seem to be previous MMO players. The standards they expect are quite different.


Well, here is your problem here, King. You see, as you blame newcomers for having an idea of what a MMO should be, you as an avid MMO is forcing the tried and true formula to what a MMO should be. Sorry but it shouldn't be like this. Just because something has been done 1001 times doesn't mean it should be done the same way the 1002nd time.

If the game is easy come retail, fine, its easy. Telling you the truth, all MMOs are easy. What is considered making the game "too easy" for the avids could really mean getting rid of the "tedium" for the newcomers and Blizzard itself. I remember you defending FFXI's approach to partying. Prehaps in your view thats the way partying should be done in all MMOs. In my view and others, relying on others that much contributes to tedium. I myself do not enjoy the 2 hour wait for a party when all i need is 500 exp to my next lv. This is something most people would like to see gone come WoW retail otherwise we all would be still playing FFXI dealing with it.

Quote:
In traditional MMOs, leveling has been a grind. WoW promised to address this. Theoretically, this is a great idea. However, WoW players seem to think that this should mean that every level should take an hour and they seem to complain endlessly when this is not the case.

The last major "push" slowed leveling. Some threads I have read have calculated that it would take as much as 240 RL hours (10 days of actual time spent playing) to reach the highest level currently attainable (L45). Then, another 240 RL hours to reach the expected release limit (L60). That would be 20 online days, or 120 days at 4 hours of play per day to reach the max level.


If you are taking the word of WoW beta testers serious you are already making a big mistake. Keep in mind that currently there are over 400,000 players that are currently testing the game. The complaining you hear from testers are from a very small minority. Personally, yes I would like fast lving and yes I have to say that lving too fast will hurt gameplay. One thing is for sure, it shouldn't take 50 days to reach lv 50 (thats 1200 hours for those not doing the math). Thats how long it took me to level Red Mage then level white for sub, farm for all my equipment and spells for both jobs, complete quests for things I need including genkai and waiting for parties. Sorry but thats too many hours.

As for calculating how many hours it takes to get to a certain level in WoW, the game is not even out. It's pointless to put up a number since niether you or me have gotten to the level cap in the game. In fact, no one can say how many hours it should take to get to the cap since the game hasn't even hit retail. Things are subject to change when retail comes on top of that but you haven't considered the time it takes to get a party for important quests, farming, etc.

Quote:
I don't think that these people understand the MMO principle of having to work for achievement. No MMO would last if you could get to the end-game in a week or a month.

If you want to reach the end-game in a week or a month, might I suggest a single player RPG? Diablo II will have you "UB3R" in no time, as it only takes 20 hours or so to get through the whole game once.


While I agree that no MMO should last a week or a month, it shouldn't feel like work either. As with any other game, achievement should come from completing something that was considered a challenge. Waiting for hours for a party is not a challenge, its tedium. Killing X monsters for X level is not a challenge if all you do is kill the monster one by one over and over again. Excuse me if you feel this is a insult towards FFXI but I find nothing to be much of a challenge in that game. Will WoW be a challenging game? Who knows. Personally I prefer a fun game then a challenge.

Might I add that Diablo 2 is a multiplayer game that is still active after 4 years.

Excuse me if you take anything here as a insult to either you or FFXI as I do not intend it to be. You need to understand that not everything needs to follow the same set of rules that has been used before. Whether WoW is easier or harder then any other MMO shouldn't really matter as long as the gameplay remains fun at all times. No MMO should be work because in the end, its a game. In the long term, no game has been successful if it isn't fun.

Edited, Mon Aug 30 00:40:18 2004 by Redmoonxl
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