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Ask/Tell: The Melee ThreadFollow

#1 Mar 31 2006 at 9:53 AM Rating: Default
In the five years or so that I've been playing, my time has mostly been dominated by interest in casters. I started off playing a cleric, took a break from that to play a warrior (not terribly well), and then moved onto druid which has been my main for a very long time. These days though my fancy has been piqued by the various alts I've got lying around and I finally broke down and made the rogue who I've promised myself I'll always hang onto. With that territory comes a great change in the combat paradigm, however, and my experience is limited. I have thusly reacted by creating this thread where anyone can accrue knowledge in this particular field through asking about whatever piece of information eludes them, or to partake in the spirit of giving and lay down your knowledge on the table. The rules are simple: anybody can ask questions and anybody else can answer them. I'm not looking for a doctorate thesis or anything but it would be nice if there was some foundation on the information given. With that I'll start off with some of the burning questions that have begun to plague me.

Surprisingly, I've managed to play a monk to 57 without knowing a lot of these in full.

-- How does the delay of the offhand affect the actual speed of attacking in relation to dual wield? When does the chance for a dual wield actual occur and does the delay of the offhand then react to that or is it moot?

-- In relation to the primary and secondary slots, I've heard that items in the primary get a damage bonus, what then would be the most effective setup for two weapons? Is it better to have a slow, powerful weapon in the primary and a good ratio in the secondary? Naturally one would want a good ratio on both but assuming the ratio is the same does that mean that the primary weapon should always have the highest damage? How is this calculated?

-- Does haste have the exact same effect on the secondary weapon as it does on the primary speed? (This sort of connects to my first point).

-- When one has two procs on a weapon, do they work on separate timers or does it just randomly select whichever proc for the "three a minute" rule? As in, will it always proc only three times a minute or is each proc listed on a weapon three times a minute. Would that mean then that two weapons with two procs each should theoretically proc 12 times a minute?

-- Does the offhand, assuming dual wield is always successful, proc any less?

-- For rogues in particular, I've heard that one wants a high damage piercer in the primary with a good ratio weapon (usually it ends up being blunt or slashing) in the secondary. Is this merely to maintain a balance of aggro or is it the most efficient way to damage? (I know backstab only checks the primary weapon).

-- Putting aside the obvious Horn of Hsagra, what are some powerful starting weapons for a rogue? Money is not an issue.

-- Does using hide in combat after turning off auto-attack as a rogue reduce hate significantly? It says you "duck away from combat" but I'm unclear on the actual effect of that.

That's all from me for now, I'll try to answer as many questions as I've asked and if you've got any, be it about melee skills, caps, crits, equipment, strategies, whatev. ask it and hopefully somebody can accomodate you.


Edits are generally for spelling, grammar, and clarity.

Edited, Fri Mar 31 10:25:33 2006 by Brudish
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#2 Mar 31 2006 at 12:43 PM Rating: Decent
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Lemme see if I can try to help without making TOO much of a fool of myself, as what I believe might not be correct. But if that is the case, I would rather know the right version myself, anyway.

-- How does the delay of the offhand affect the actual speed of attacking in relation to dual wield?

As far as I understand, it doesn't.

When does the chance for a dual wield actual occur and does the delay of the offhand then react to that or is it moot?

Dual wield is happening whenever you have a weapon in your primary and your secondary. The higher the skill, the better your chance to hit with the offhand

-- In relation to the primary and secondary slots, I've heard that items in the primary get a damage bonus,

I **think** you get damage bonuses on the offhand weapon as well, but it has been quite some time since I played a dual wielding class.

what then would be the most effective setup for two weapons?

Class dependant, but I think I know what you mean by your next statement:

Is it better to have a slow, powerful weapon in the primary and a good ratio in the secondary?

Opposite. You want your faster weapon in your primary, slower, more powerful in your secondary.

Naturally one would want a good ratio on both but assuming the ratio is the same does that mean that the primary weapon should always have the highest damage?

In a case like this, I would put the higher DMG weapon in my primary, assuming the delay was exactly the same.

-- Putting aside the obvious Horn of Hsagra, what are some powerful starting weapons for a rogue? Money is not an issue.

I gave mine a Sarnak Backstabber in the primary (for backstabbing DMG) and an Edge of...something in offhand.

-- Does using hide in combat after turning off auto-attack as a rogue reduce hate significantly? It says you "duck away from combat" but I'm unclear on the actual effect of that.

I **BELIEVE** the stopping of attack, and hiding basically lessens you on the hate list, which would allow your tank to gain agg back, so you can continue dishing out the damage from backstabs.

Sorry that I was not able to give more definitive answers to this - it has been quite some time since I played my rogue or ranger. Either way, hope it helps.

Edited, Fri Mar 31 12:48:49 2006 by Thoryndar
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#3 Mar 31 2006 at 1:18 PM Rating: Default
First off thanks for this thread. Second thanks for rogue info. I am enjoying the baby rogue I have started. It is a nice contrast to a pally, which is my main. Nice to have no spells to cast, dual weild, and some real dps!! Now just to learn not to tank with her!!

My questions are regarding weapons and applies to any melee I suppose. Our guild has had much discussion on this and little agreement so I am hoping someone really knows! So here I go and I refuse to feel dumb asking them, lol.

"Comparative efficiency" and "Ratio"

According to Alla, Ratio is calculated by delay/damage. ie 1: delay 24 dmg 26 is 24/26=.923 = godly. ie 2: 30/44=.681 = godly also.

My question is which is more godly? Many in guild argue this is wrong it should be dmg/delay. I don't really care, I just want to know which is best and no one seems to agree. lol

Also where does bonus dmg come into this. Both weapons in the example give a 15 bonus dmg at level 70.

Next question is what is comparative efficiency?

In the two examples I have given ie 1: is 139 and ie 2: is 171.

So we have weapon 1 with .923 ratio and 139 ce and weapon 2 with .681 ratio and 171 ce.

Any thoughts would be much appreciated.

Seamy



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~Marc Broussard
#4 Mar 31 2006 at 1:19 PM Rating: Decent
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877 posts
Brudish wrote:
How does the delay of the offhand affect the actual speed of attacking in relation to dual wield? When does the chance for a dual wield actual occur and does the delay of the offhand then react to that or is it moot?


They're on an independent set of systems. Clock checks every 0.1 seconds for a hit chance, determined by effective delay, decrimenting the remaining delay by one at each. One the off-hand 0, it checks for an attempt at swinging versus your Dual Wield ability skill. After this, and the attempt, should it make it, then it resets the off-hand's effective delay timer.

Brudish wrote:
In relation to the primary and secondary slots, I've heard that items in the primary get a damage bonus, what then would be the most effective setup for two weapons? Is it better to have a slow, powerful weapon in the primary and a good ratio in the secondary? Naturally one would want a good ratio on both but assuming the ratio is the same does that mean that the primary weapon should always have the highest damage? How is this calculated?


In my opinion, if BS damage is based off primary hand, I'd put the best ratio there, which preference to high damage. The effective DPS will always be [Primary_DPS + DualWieldCheckRatio * Secondary_DPS + Primary_Damage * BackstabModifier], assuming you're always in position and clicking the Backstab at reload time. If not for Backstab, it appears that ratio is the sole important aspect. Since Backstab will be based off Primary damage, I'd recommend giving it preference. Or you could crunch the numbers. Finally, if you're fighting a caster or have Procs to consider, do take those into account, as well as pushback!

Brudish wrote:
Does haste have the exact same effect on the secondary weapon as it does on the primary speed? (This sort of connects to my first point).


Yes. EffectiveDelay_Primary,Secondary = WeaponsDelay / (1 + WornHaste + BuffHaste + v3Haste) while (WornHaste + BuffHaste) =< 1; else, EffectiveDelay_Primary,Secondary = WeaponsDelay / (2 + v3Haste). EffectiveDelay_Primary,Secondary is rounded (up, down, or closest, I'm not sure). If EffectiveDelay_Primary,Secondary < 9, then EffectiveDelay_Primary,Secondary = 9.


Brudish wrote:
When one has two procs on a weapon, do they work on separate timers or does it just randomly select whichever proc for the "three a minute" rule? As in, will it always proc only three times a minute or is each proc listed on a weapon three times a minute. Would that mean then that two weapons with two procs each should theoretically proc 12 times a minute?


Procs work on independent chances. There's a ProcModRate which determines the chance of a proc proccing. Now, there's one deal where procs can overwrite one another.. such as, if one proc makes a check, another can not.. hence the reason many have the Chanter's Boon of Garau line.. but you'd have to ask another for more details on it. I've never heard of a "three a minute" rule.

Brudish wrote:
Does the offhand, assuming dual wield is always successful, proc any less?


Not to my knowledge.

Brudish wrote:
For rogues in particular, I've heard that one wants a high damage piercer in the primary with a good ratio weapon (usually it ends up being blunt or slashing) in the secondary. Is this merely to maintain a balance of aggro or is it the most efficient way to damage? (I know backstab only checks the primary weapon).


Damage. If your Primary isn't a piercer, than you can't BS, and that kills your DPS. However, it doesn't matter what it is in your second, assuming your skills are even, you just want a ratio for output. Also, by having a different weapon type in your off-hand, it'll help you keep more of your weapons skills up.

Brudish wrote:
Putting aside the obvious Horn of Hsagra, what are some powerful starting weapons for a rogue? Money is not an issue.


I'd just consult the database, as I'm sure you have.


Brudish wrote:
Does using hide in combat after turning off auto-attack as a rogue reduce hate significantly? It says you "duck away from combat" but I'm unclear on the actual effect of that.


Me neither. :P
#5 Mar 31 2006 at 1:28 PM Rating: Decent
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Sir Rodth wrote:
"Comparative efficiency" and "Ratio"

According to Alla, Ratio is calculated by delay/damage. ie 1: delay 24 dmg 26 is 24/26=.923 = godly. ie 2: 30/44=.681 = godly also.

My question is which is more godly? Many in guild argue this is wrong it should be dmg/delay. I don't really care, I just want to know which is best and no one seems to agree.


Ratio can be calculated either way.

If you're using (Ratio = Delay / Damage), then a lower Ratio is superior.
If you're using (Ratio = Damage / Delay), then a higher Ratio is superior. Personally, I perfer this method, since it lends itself more easily to damage over time calculations.


As for comparative efficientcy, I'm not sure what they mean by this. Perhaps its Ratio with Procs and other modifers taken into account for damage output.

Finally, Bonus Damage is based off level for most weapons. It's 15 for melee-inclined classes at 70. However, two-handed weapons with a (Delay >= 28) will gain a higher Damage Bonus based off Damage and PlayerLevel. (DamageBonus_(Delay>=28,TwoHanded) = F(Weapon_Damage, PlayerLevel). This is why you find so many two-handed weapons with a delay of 28.. it's the ideal delay for a two-handed weapon.

Edit: Left some out of the quote. Its responded to, just not quoted.

Edited, Fri Mar 31 13:33:31 2006 by ReofblMobile
#6 Mar 31 2006 at 1:32 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
-- Does using hide in combat after turning off auto-attack as a rogue reduce hate significantly? It says you "duck away from combat" but I'm unclear on the actual effect of that.


Yes, it reduces your ranking on the hate list. It's called evading and is quite effective for losing aggro. Just stop attacking, hide and you will usually lose aggro. Not always, but often enough to make it worth doing. When it works properly, aggro appears to me always go to the next person on the hate list, hopefully the tank.

For a rogue, you want the highest damage piercer in your primary because your weapon's damage determines how much your backstab does and the differenece between 15 and 16 damage weapons on a backstab can be significant. That said, you also want your fastest weapon in primary. It's a balance. If the delay is too high, it doesn't matter what the damage is because, while you'll backstab nicely, you'll be losing normal DPS. If the damage is too low, you lose backstab DPS even if it is a fast weapon.
#7 Mar 31 2006 at 1:39 PM Rating: Decent
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I don't have answers for Rogue-specific stuff, but (out of sequence):

1. Haste affects primary and secondary equally.

2. Secondary procs half as much as primary. Proc rates can be raised via Weapon Affinity AA (WA1-5) and Combat Effects. Otherwise, proc rates are strictly based on a fixed # of times per minute and has no dependency on whether you successfully swing or hit. Note that some weaps do have modifiers allowing the proc more times per minute - the cleric summoned hammers for example.

3. Delay of secondary has no effect on primary swings, and vice versa. Only difference for secondary chance to *swing* is that it has additional check against Dual Wield skill. Secondary chance to swing can also be raised using Ambidexterity AA.

4. When factoring ratio versus damage bonus, I've *heard* that you can use these calcs to make a relative comparison: (2*dmg+dmg bonus)/delay for primary and (2*dmg*dualwield chance)/delay, where dualwield chance = (lvl + dual wield skill)/400. I have no idea how accurate this is, but it seems to give answers that are consistent (as far as which weap in which hand) with the DPS calculator I've used for my monk. Generally this means that faster weapons are better in primary, all other things being equal (e.g., same ratios, put faster weap in primary).

5. Some classes can get an offhand damage bonus via Sinister Strikes AA.

#8 Mar 31 2006 at 2:29 PM Rating: Default
First of all, I just want to say that this is exactly the kind of responses I was hoping to receive and I thank all of you. That being said, there's some further clarification I need to do.

In regards to the primary weapons getting a damage bonus, I probably should have worded that better. I wasn't referring to the actual "damage bonus" that shows up on weapons but I've always heard (and somewhat noticed) that weapons in the primary will tend to max at a higher damage or have a higher chance to hit at close to max damage. Is this correct or have I been imagining it?

Edit: Just to clarify again with how dual wield affects the swing rate of the secondary: every .1 seconds or whatever a check is made to see if dual wield goes off, if it's successful then a swing will come from the secondary hand, no interest is made in terms of checking anything from the primary delay, etc.? Am I right in interpretting that?

Edited, Fri Mar 31 14:38:10 2006 by Brudish
____________________________
If a druid tanks in a forest, and nobody is around to see it, is he uber?
---
Earthkeeper Brudish FrozenThorn
---
#9 Mar 31 2006 at 4:11 PM Rating: Decent
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Brudish wrote:
I've always heard (and somewhat noticed) that weapons in the primary will tend to max at a higher damage or have a higher chance to hit at close to max damage. Is this correct or have I been imagining it?


I don't believe this is so.

Brudish wrote:
Just to clarify again with how dual wield affects the swing rate of the secondary: every .1 seconds or whatever a check is made to see if dual wield goes off, if it's successful then a swing will come from the secondary hand, no interest is made in terms of checking anything from the primary delay, etc.? Am I right in interpretting that?


Yup, you are. Of course, there are the obvious exceptions of +stats, especially Haste, +ATK, +Accuracy, and +skill% on some first handers that could affect the second hand in that regard, but then only as a piece of armor with the same stats would.
#10 Mar 31 2006 at 4:26 PM Rating: Good
I'll answer any remaining questions in this thread later today, when I have a bit more time.
#11 Mar 31 2006 at 9:17 PM Rating: Decent
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weapons with a proc in off hand, proc half as often as in the primary hand. Standard or average proc rate is around 2 per minute in primary and once per minute in secondary.

rogue in my guild, going from a 22/20 piercer to a 23/20 piercer says his backstab damage went from 983 to 1085.

And yes, evade does drop you down the aggro list. As a rogue, in a group, you should try to evade, even when you aren't getting aggro, just to make sure you don't. In a raid, with mobs quadding for 4k, you don't want any attention at all.
#12 Mar 31 2006 at 9:20 PM Rating: Good
Quote:
weapons with a proc in off hand, proc half as often as in the primary hand. Standard or average proc rate is around 2 per minute in primary and once per minute in secondary.

proc rate is at 65 305 dex pre wa, btw
#13 Mar 31 2006 at 9:33 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
proc rate is at 65 305 dex pre wa, btw


Yes, you are correct. Weapon Affinity and Combat effects will affect the proc rate quite a bit, also. Parses have shown that dex over 305 has no noticeable difference on proc rates.
#14 Mar 31 2006 at 11:08 PM Rating: Default
This thread is amazing.

Alright, to keep the questions coming: has any calculation been done to see exactly how much strength affects damage output and how much dexterity affects chance to hit? Does pumping strength also raise the maximum damage a weapon will do (negating level)?
____________________________
If a druid tanks in a forest, and nobody is around to see it, is he uber?
---
Earthkeeper Brudish FrozenThorn
---
#15 Mar 31 2006 at 11:37 PM Rating: Good
dex doesn't effect hit.

str has minimal effect on damage, but, yes, it does raise the maximum.
#16 Apr 01 2006 at 1:38 AM Rating: Default
If dexterity doesn't affect chance to hit, then what, may I ask, does it do (besides chance to skill up and chance to perform certain tasks)?
____________________________
If a druid tanks in a forest, and nobody is around to see it, is he uber?
---
Earthkeeper Brudish FrozenThorn
---
#17 Apr 01 2006 at 1:42 AM Rating: Good
Quote:
If dexterity doesn't affect chance to hit, then what, may I ask, does it do (besides chance to skill up and chance to perform certain tasks)?

really not much.
#18 Apr 01 2006 at 2:00 AM Rating: Default
So why would classes (especially melee) even bother raising their dex then?
____________________________
If a druid tanks in a forest, and nobody is around to see it, is he uber?
---
Earthkeeper Brudish FrozenThorn
---
#19 Apr 01 2006 at 2:20 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
So why would classes (especially melee) even bother raising their dex then?


I have been told that higher dex makes weapons proc more, not sure if this is true though

Edited, Sat Apr 1 02:20:46 2006 by Maktub
#20 Apr 01 2006 at 3:37 AM Rating: Decent
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811 posts
Ah I do have a question:

is it possible to add your combat abilities in a macro and if so with what command?

Also there seems to be a certain numberical order for abilities and combat page (action window) to use in macros.

I know abilities go:
1-2
3-4
5-6

Do combat abilitites then go
7-8
9-10
11-12
13-14
#21 Apr 01 2006 at 5:20 AM Rating: Decent
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282 posts
yes, higher dex makes your weapons proc more. Dex over 305 has no noticable effect on proc rate. If your warrior has stun and hate procs, They will proc more often causing the monsters to stay on the tank. Melees like high dex.
#22 Apr 01 2006 at 5:47 AM Rating: Decent
22 posts
Melee related, but along a different line...

Avoidance: adds to AC, does it do anything else?
Combat Effects: what does this do?
DoT shielding X%: does this shave X% of dmg off the top from NPCs casting DoTs on you?

There are others, but I can't think of them atm...Is there a database somewhere that explains these different effects on items?

Thanks

Edited, Sat Apr 1 05:48:25 2006 by mothompson
#23 Apr 01 2006 at 9:47 AM Rating: Good
Quote:
So why would classes (especially melee) even bother raising their dex then?

really, most don't bother to do so. it just gets raised because gear with good stats has dex too. extensive parsing by the shamans has showed that dex, even pre-305, has a pretty minimal effect on proccing.
#24 Apr 01 2006 at 1:34 PM Rating: Default
I read somewhere that for every +10 to avoidance, it's 1% innate chance to dodge. Since the amount of avoidance you can have is 125 and assuming you max that out, that means you can get a 12.5% chance to dodge attacks from your gear. Right, that's what I meant, I didn't mean you actually "dodge" the attack so much as not get hit by it.

DoT Shielding does exactly what you said, it shaves off x% damage off of any dots cast on you. I'm pretty sure DoT Shielding stacks too, so it's not just the highest percent, is this right?

Edit: I checked my magelo and since I've got 2 2% items with DoT shielding it says I get 4%, so I believe that yes, they stack with each other. (I usually read that items with a % in them will not stack but instead take the highest, this appears to be the exception).

Edited, Sat Apr 1 13:36:46 2006 by Brudish

Edited, Sat Apr 1 14:38:11 2006 by Brudish
____________________________
If a druid tanks in a forest, and nobody is around to see it, is he uber?
---
Earthkeeper Brudish FrozenThorn
---
#25 Apr 01 2006 at 2:11 PM Rating: Good
all time mods stack, even the percent ones. iirc, dot shield caps like 35.

Quote:
I read somewhere that for every +10 to avoidance, it's 1% innate chance to dodge. Since the amount of avoidance you can have is 125 and assuming you max that out, that means you can get a 12.5% chance to dodge attacks from your gear.

it's a 1% chance for a mob to miss you, not for you to dodge. it's actually a pretty big difference, although I'm about to run out the door and don't have time to explain indepth why. flat dodge % mods are almost worthless.
#26 Apr 01 2006 at 2:35 PM Rating: Default
Dodge % mods are useless because they simply raise your "dodge" skill, it only gives a couple extra points and in the end barely raises your dodge to be noticable. I gotcha covered.
____________________________
If a druid tanks in a forest, and nobody is around to see it, is he uber?
---
Earthkeeper Brudish FrozenThorn
---
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