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Ask/Tell: The Melee ThreadFollow

#1 Mar 31 2006 at 9:53 AM Rating: Default
In the five years or so that I've been playing, my time has mostly been dominated by interest in casters. I started off playing a cleric, took a break from that to play a warrior (not terribly well), and then moved onto druid which has been my main for a very long time. These days though my fancy has been piqued by the various alts I've got lying around and I finally broke down and made the rogue who I've promised myself I'll always hang onto. With that territory comes a great change in the combat paradigm, however, and my experience is limited. I have thusly reacted by creating this thread where anyone can accrue knowledge in this particular field through asking about whatever piece of information eludes them, or to partake in the spirit of giving and lay down your knowledge on the table. The rules are simple: anybody can ask questions and anybody else can answer them. I'm not looking for a doctorate thesis or anything but it would be nice if there was some foundation on the information given. With that I'll start off with some of the burning questions that have begun to plague me.

Surprisingly, I've managed to play a monk to 57 without knowing a lot of these in full.

-- How does the delay of the offhand affect the actual speed of attacking in relation to dual wield? When does the chance for a dual wield actual occur and does the delay of the offhand then react to that or is it moot?

-- In relation to the primary and secondary slots, I've heard that items in the primary get a damage bonus, what then would be the most effective setup for two weapons? Is it better to have a slow, powerful weapon in the primary and a good ratio in the secondary? Naturally one would want a good ratio on both but assuming the ratio is the same does that mean that the primary weapon should always have the highest damage? How is this calculated?

-- Does haste have the exact same effect on the secondary weapon as it does on the primary speed? (This sort of connects to my first point).

-- When one has two procs on a weapon, do they work on separate timers or does it just randomly select whichever proc for the "three a minute" rule? As in, will it always proc only three times a minute or is each proc listed on a weapon three times a minute. Would that mean then that two weapons with two procs each should theoretically proc 12 times a minute?

-- Does the offhand, assuming dual wield is always successful, proc any less?

-- For rogues in particular, I've heard that one wants a high damage piercer in the primary with a good ratio weapon (usually it ends up being blunt or slashing) in the secondary. Is this merely to maintain a balance of aggro or is it the most efficient way to damage? (I know backstab only checks the primary weapon).

-- Putting aside the obvious Horn of Hsagra, what are some powerful starting weapons for a rogue? Money is not an issue.

-- Does using hide in combat after turning off auto-attack as a rogue reduce hate significantly? It says you "duck away from combat" but I'm unclear on the actual effect of that.

That's all from me for now, I'll try to answer as many questions as I've asked and if you've got any, be it about melee skills, caps, crits, equipment, strategies, whatev. ask it and hopefully somebody can accomodate you.


Edits are generally for spelling, grammar, and clarity.

Edited, Fri Mar 31 10:25:33 2006 by Brudish
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#2 Mar 31 2006 at 12:43 PM Rating: Decent
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Lemme see if I can try to help without making TOO much of a fool of myself, as what I believe might not be correct. But if that is the case, I would rather know the right version myself, anyway.

-- How does the delay of the offhand affect the actual speed of attacking in relation to dual wield?

As far as I understand, it doesn't.

When does the chance for a dual wield actual occur and does the delay of the offhand then react to that or is it moot?

Dual wield is happening whenever you have a weapon in your primary and your secondary. The higher the skill, the better your chance to hit with the offhand

-- In relation to the primary and secondary slots, I've heard that items in the primary get a damage bonus,

I **think** you get damage bonuses on the offhand weapon as well, but it has been quite some time since I played a dual wielding class.

what then would be the most effective setup for two weapons?

Class dependant, but I think I know what you mean by your next statement:

Is it better to have a slow, powerful weapon in the primary and a good ratio in the secondary?

Opposite. You want your faster weapon in your primary, slower, more powerful in your secondary.

Naturally one would want a good ratio on both but assuming the ratio is the same does that mean that the primary weapon should always have the highest damage?

In a case like this, I would put the higher DMG weapon in my primary, assuming the delay was exactly the same.

-- Putting aside the obvious Horn of Hsagra, what are some powerful starting weapons for a rogue? Money is not an issue.

I gave mine a Sarnak Backstabber in the primary (for backstabbing DMG) and an Edge of...something in offhand.

-- Does using hide in combat after turning off auto-attack as a rogue reduce hate significantly? It says you "duck away from combat" but I'm unclear on the actual effect of that.

I **BELIEVE** the stopping of attack, and hiding basically lessens you on the hate list, which would allow your tank to gain agg back, so you can continue dishing out the damage from backstabs.

Sorry that I was not able to give more definitive answers to this - it has been quite some time since I played my rogue or ranger. Either way, hope it helps.

Edited, Fri Mar 31 12:48:49 2006 by Thoryndar
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#3 Mar 31 2006 at 1:18 PM Rating: Default
First off thanks for this thread. Second thanks for rogue info. I am enjoying the baby rogue I have started. It is a nice contrast to a pally, which is my main. Nice to have no spells to cast, dual weild, and some real dps!! Now just to learn not to tank with her!!

My questions are regarding weapons and applies to any melee I suppose. Our guild has had much discussion on this and little agreement so I am hoping someone really knows! So here I go and I refuse to feel dumb asking them, lol.

"Comparative efficiency" and "Ratio"

According to Alla, Ratio is calculated by delay/damage. ie 1: delay 24 dmg 26 is 24/26=.923 = godly. ie 2: 30/44=.681 = godly also.

My question is which is more godly? Many in guild argue this is wrong it should be dmg/delay. I don't really care, I just want to know which is best and no one seems to agree. lol

Also where does bonus dmg come into this. Both weapons in the example give a 15 bonus dmg at level 70.

Next question is what is comparative efficiency?

In the two examples I have given ie 1: is 139 and ie 2: is 171.

So we have weapon 1 with .923 ratio and 139 ce and weapon 2 with .681 ratio and 171 ce.

Any thoughts would be much appreciated.

Seamy



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#4 Mar 31 2006 at 1:19 PM Rating: Decent
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Brudish wrote:
How does the delay of the offhand affect the actual speed of attacking in relation to dual wield? When does the chance for a dual wield actual occur and does the delay of the offhand then react to that or is it moot?


They're on an independent set of systems. Clock checks every 0.1 seconds for a hit chance, determined by effective delay, decrimenting the remaining delay by one at each. One the off-hand 0, it checks for an attempt at swinging versus your Dual Wield ability skill. After this, and the attempt, should it make it, then it resets the off-hand's effective delay timer.

Brudish wrote:
In relation to the primary and secondary slots, I've heard that items in the primary get a damage bonus, what then would be the most effective setup for two weapons? Is it better to have a slow, powerful weapon in the primary and a good ratio in the secondary? Naturally one would want a good ratio on both but assuming the ratio is the same does that mean that the primary weapon should always have the highest damage? How is this calculated?


In my opinion, if BS damage is based off primary hand, I'd put the best ratio there, which preference to high damage. The effective DPS will always be [Primary_DPS + DualWieldCheckRatio * Secondary_DPS + Primary_Damage * BackstabModifier], assuming you're always in position and clicking the Backstab at reload time. If not for Backstab, it appears that ratio is the sole important aspect. Since Backstab will be based off Primary damage, I'd recommend giving it preference. Or you could crunch the numbers. Finally, if you're fighting a caster or have Procs to consider, do take those into account, as well as pushback!

Brudish wrote:
Does haste have the exact same effect on the secondary weapon as it does on the primary speed? (This sort of connects to my first point).


Yes. EffectiveDelay_Primary,Secondary = WeaponsDelay / (1 + WornHaste + BuffHaste + v3Haste) while (WornHaste + BuffHaste) =< 1; else, EffectiveDelay_Primary,Secondary = WeaponsDelay / (2 + v3Haste). EffectiveDelay_Primary,Secondary is rounded (up, down, or closest, I'm not sure). If EffectiveDelay_Primary,Secondary < 9, then EffectiveDelay_Primary,Secondary = 9.


Brudish wrote:
When one has two procs on a weapon, do they work on separate timers or does it just randomly select whichever proc for the "three a minute" rule? As in, will it always proc only three times a minute or is each proc listed on a weapon three times a minute. Would that mean then that two weapons with two procs each should theoretically proc 12 times a minute?


Procs work on independent chances. There's a ProcModRate which determines the chance of a proc proccing. Now, there's one deal where procs can overwrite one another.. such as, if one proc makes a check, another can not.. hence the reason many have the Chanter's Boon of Garau line.. but you'd have to ask another for more details on it. I've never heard of a "three a minute" rule.

Brudish wrote:
Does the offhand, assuming dual wield is always successful, proc any less?


Not to my knowledge.

Brudish wrote:
For rogues in particular, I've heard that one wants a high damage piercer in the primary with a good ratio weapon (usually it ends up being blunt or slashing) in the secondary. Is this merely to maintain a balance of aggro or is it the most efficient way to damage? (I know backstab only checks the primary weapon).


Damage. If your Primary isn't a piercer, than you can't BS, and that kills your DPS. However, it doesn't matter what it is in your second, assuming your skills are even, you just want a ratio for output. Also, by having a different weapon type in your off-hand, it'll help you keep more of your weapons skills up.

Brudish wrote:
Putting aside the obvious Horn of Hsagra, what are some powerful starting weapons for a rogue? Money is not an issue.


I'd just consult the database, as I'm sure you have.


Brudish wrote:
Does using hide in combat after turning off auto-attack as a rogue reduce hate significantly? It says you "duck away from combat" but I'm unclear on the actual effect of that.


Me neither. :P
#5 Mar 31 2006 at 1:28 PM Rating: Decent
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Sir Rodth wrote:
"Comparative efficiency" and "Ratio"

According to Alla, Ratio is calculated by delay/damage. ie 1: delay 24 dmg 26 is 24/26=.923 = godly. ie 2: 30/44=.681 = godly also.

My question is which is more godly? Many in guild argue this is wrong it should be dmg/delay. I don't really care, I just want to know which is best and no one seems to agree.


Ratio can be calculated either way.

If you're using (Ratio = Delay / Damage), then a lower Ratio is superior.
If you're using (Ratio = Damage / Delay), then a higher Ratio is superior. Personally, I perfer this method, since it lends itself more easily to damage over time calculations.


As for comparative efficientcy, I'm not sure what they mean by this. Perhaps its Ratio with Procs and other modifers taken into account for damage output.

Finally, Bonus Damage is based off level for most weapons. It's 15 for melee-inclined classes at 70. However, two-handed weapons with a (Delay >= 28) will gain a higher Damage Bonus based off Damage and PlayerLevel. (DamageBonus_(Delay>=28,TwoHanded) = F(Weapon_Damage, PlayerLevel). This is why you find so many two-handed weapons with a delay of 28.. it's the ideal delay for a two-handed weapon.

Edit: Left some out of the quote. Its responded to, just not quoted.

Edited, Fri Mar 31 13:33:31 2006 by ReofblMobile
#6 Mar 31 2006 at 1:32 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
-- Does using hide in combat after turning off auto-attack as a rogue reduce hate significantly? It says you "duck away from combat" but I'm unclear on the actual effect of that.


Yes, it reduces your ranking on the hate list. It's called evading and is quite effective for losing aggro. Just stop attacking, hide and you will usually lose aggro. Not always, but often enough to make it worth doing. When it works properly, aggro appears to me always go to the next person on the hate list, hopefully the tank.

For a rogue, you want the highest damage piercer in your primary because your weapon's damage determines how much your backstab does and the differenece between 15 and 16 damage weapons on a backstab can be significant. That said, you also want your fastest weapon in primary. It's a balance. If the delay is too high, it doesn't matter what the damage is because, while you'll backstab nicely, you'll be losing normal DPS. If the damage is too low, you lose backstab DPS even if it is a fast weapon.
#7 Mar 31 2006 at 1:39 PM Rating: Decent
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I don't have answers for Rogue-specific stuff, but (out of sequence):

1. Haste affects primary and secondary equally.

2. Secondary procs half as much as primary. Proc rates can be raised via Weapon Affinity AA (WA1-5) and Combat Effects. Otherwise, proc rates are strictly based on a fixed # of times per minute and has no dependency on whether you successfully swing or hit. Note that some weaps do have modifiers allowing the proc more times per minute - the cleric summoned hammers for example.

3. Delay of secondary has no effect on primary swings, and vice versa. Only difference for secondary chance to *swing* is that it has additional check against Dual Wield skill. Secondary chance to swing can also be raised using Ambidexterity AA.

4. When factoring ratio versus damage bonus, I've *heard* that you can use these calcs to make a relative comparison: (2*dmg+dmg bonus)/delay for primary and (2*dmg*dualwield chance)/delay, where dualwield chance = (lvl + dual wield skill)/400. I have no idea how accurate this is, but it seems to give answers that are consistent (as far as which weap in which hand) with the DPS calculator I've used for my monk. Generally this means that faster weapons are better in primary, all other things being equal (e.g., same ratios, put faster weap in primary).

5. Some classes can get an offhand damage bonus via Sinister Strikes AA.

#8 Mar 31 2006 at 2:29 PM Rating: Default
First of all, I just want to say that this is exactly the kind of responses I was hoping to receive and I thank all of you. That being said, there's some further clarification I need to do.

In regards to the primary weapons getting a damage bonus, I probably should have worded that better. I wasn't referring to the actual "damage bonus" that shows up on weapons but I've always heard (and somewhat noticed) that weapons in the primary will tend to max at a higher damage or have a higher chance to hit at close to max damage. Is this correct or have I been imagining it?

Edit: Just to clarify again with how dual wield affects the swing rate of the secondary: every .1 seconds or whatever a check is made to see if dual wield goes off, if it's successful then a swing will come from the secondary hand, no interest is made in terms of checking anything from the primary delay, etc.? Am I right in interpretting that?

Edited, Fri Mar 31 14:38:10 2006 by Brudish
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If a druid tanks in a forest, and nobody is around to see it, is he uber?
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#9 Mar 31 2006 at 4:11 PM Rating: Decent
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Brudish wrote:
I've always heard (and somewhat noticed) that weapons in the primary will tend to max at a higher damage or have a higher chance to hit at close to max damage. Is this correct or have I been imagining it?


I don't believe this is so.

Brudish wrote:
Just to clarify again with how dual wield affects the swing rate of the secondary: every .1 seconds or whatever a check is made to see if dual wield goes off, if it's successful then a swing will come from the secondary hand, no interest is made in terms of checking anything from the primary delay, etc.? Am I right in interpretting that?


Yup, you are. Of course, there are the obvious exceptions of +stats, especially Haste, +ATK, +Accuracy, and +skill% on some first handers that could affect the second hand in that regard, but then only as a piece of armor with the same stats would.
#10 Mar 31 2006 at 4:26 PM Rating: Good
I'll answer any remaining questions in this thread later today, when I have a bit more time.
#11 Mar 31 2006 at 9:17 PM Rating: Decent
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weapons with a proc in off hand, proc half as often as in the primary hand. Standard or average proc rate is around 2 per minute in primary and once per minute in secondary.

rogue in my guild, going from a 22/20 piercer to a 23/20 piercer says his backstab damage went from 983 to 1085.

And yes, evade does drop you down the aggro list. As a rogue, in a group, you should try to evade, even when you aren't getting aggro, just to make sure you don't. In a raid, with mobs quadding for 4k, you don't want any attention at all.
#12 Mar 31 2006 at 9:20 PM Rating: Good
Quote:
weapons with a proc in off hand, proc half as often as in the primary hand. Standard or average proc rate is around 2 per minute in primary and once per minute in secondary.

proc rate is at 65 305 dex pre wa, btw
#13 Mar 31 2006 at 9:33 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
proc rate is at 65 305 dex pre wa, btw


Yes, you are correct. Weapon Affinity and Combat effects will affect the proc rate quite a bit, also. Parses have shown that dex over 305 has no noticeable difference on proc rates.
#14 Mar 31 2006 at 11:08 PM Rating: Default
This thread is amazing.

Alright, to keep the questions coming: has any calculation been done to see exactly how much strength affects damage output and how much dexterity affects chance to hit? Does pumping strength also raise the maximum damage a weapon will do (negating level)?
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If a druid tanks in a forest, and nobody is around to see it, is he uber?
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Earthkeeper Brudish FrozenThorn
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#15 Mar 31 2006 at 11:37 PM Rating: Good
dex doesn't effect hit.

str has minimal effect on damage, but, yes, it does raise the maximum.
#16 Apr 01 2006 at 1:38 AM Rating: Default
If dexterity doesn't affect chance to hit, then what, may I ask, does it do (besides chance to skill up and chance to perform certain tasks)?
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If a druid tanks in a forest, and nobody is around to see it, is he uber?
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Earthkeeper Brudish FrozenThorn
---
#17 Apr 01 2006 at 1:42 AM Rating: Good
Quote:
If dexterity doesn't affect chance to hit, then what, may I ask, does it do (besides chance to skill up and chance to perform certain tasks)?

really not much.
#18 Apr 01 2006 at 2:00 AM Rating: Default
So why would classes (especially melee) even bother raising their dex then?
____________________________
If a druid tanks in a forest, and nobody is around to see it, is he uber?
---
Earthkeeper Brudish FrozenThorn
---
#19 Apr 01 2006 at 2:20 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
So why would classes (especially melee) even bother raising their dex then?


I have been told that higher dex makes weapons proc more, not sure if this is true though

Edited, Sat Apr 1 02:20:46 2006 by Maktub
#20 Apr 01 2006 at 3:37 AM Rating: Decent
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Ah I do have a question:

is it possible to add your combat abilities in a macro and if so with what command?

Also there seems to be a certain numberical order for abilities and combat page (action window) to use in macros.

I know abilities go:
1-2
3-4
5-6

Do combat abilitites then go
7-8
9-10
11-12
13-14
#21 Apr 01 2006 at 5:20 AM Rating: Decent
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yes, higher dex makes your weapons proc more. Dex over 305 has no noticable effect on proc rate. If your warrior has stun and hate procs, They will proc more often causing the monsters to stay on the tank. Melees like high dex.
#22 Apr 01 2006 at 5:47 AM Rating: Decent
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Melee related, but along a different line...

Avoidance: adds to AC, does it do anything else?
Combat Effects: what does this do?
DoT shielding X%: does this shave X% of dmg off the top from NPCs casting DoTs on you?

There are others, but I can't think of them atm...Is there a database somewhere that explains these different effects on items?

Thanks

Edited, Sat Apr 1 05:48:25 2006 by mothompson
#23 Apr 01 2006 at 9:47 AM Rating: Good
Quote:
So why would classes (especially melee) even bother raising their dex then?

really, most don't bother to do so. it just gets raised because gear with good stats has dex too. extensive parsing by the shamans has showed that dex, even pre-305, has a pretty minimal effect on proccing.
#24 Apr 01 2006 at 1:34 PM Rating: Default
I read somewhere that for every +10 to avoidance, it's 1% innate chance to dodge. Since the amount of avoidance you can have is 125 and assuming you max that out, that means you can get a 12.5% chance to dodge attacks from your gear. Right, that's what I meant, I didn't mean you actually "dodge" the attack so much as not get hit by it.

DoT Shielding does exactly what you said, it shaves off x% damage off of any dots cast on you. I'm pretty sure DoT Shielding stacks too, so it's not just the highest percent, is this right?

Edit: I checked my magelo and since I've got 2 2% items with DoT shielding it says I get 4%, so I believe that yes, they stack with each other. (I usually read that items with a % in them will not stack but instead take the highest, this appears to be the exception).

Edited, Sat Apr 1 13:36:46 2006 by Brudish

Edited, Sat Apr 1 14:38:11 2006 by Brudish
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If a druid tanks in a forest, and nobody is around to see it, is he uber?
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Earthkeeper Brudish FrozenThorn
---
#25 Apr 01 2006 at 2:11 PM Rating: Good
all time mods stack, even the percent ones. iirc, dot shield caps like 35.

Quote:
I read somewhere that for every +10 to avoidance, it's 1% innate chance to dodge. Since the amount of avoidance you can have is 125 and assuming you max that out, that means you can get a 12.5% chance to dodge attacks from your gear.

it's a 1% chance for a mob to miss you, not for you to dodge. it's actually a pretty big difference, although I'm about to run out the door and don't have time to explain indepth why. flat dodge % mods are almost worthless.
#26 Apr 01 2006 at 2:35 PM Rating: Default
Dodge % mods are useless because they simply raise your "dodge" skill, it only gives a couple extra points and in the end barely raises your dodge to be noticable. I gotcha covered.
____________________________
If a druid tanks in a forest, and nobody is around to see it, is he uber?
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Earthkeeper Brudish FrozenThorn
---
#27 Apr 01 2006 at 3:58 PM Rating: Good
Quote:
Dodge % mods are useless because they simply raise your "dodge" skill, it only gives a couple extra points and in the end barely raises your dodge to be noticable. I gotcha covered.

little more than that, really, but in the end, the effect is the same. a 30% dodge bonus is like a .05% avoidance bonus
#28 Apr 01 2006 at 8:44 PM Rating: Decent
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Think Tastian, the beastlord class corr. put each 25 avoidance at 6.5% less chance to get hit. I thought the avoidance cap was at 100, but I could be wrong. All the shielding mods cap at 35, i.e. Dot shielding, spell shielding and shielding.

Each 15 accuracy adds 1dps. Think the cap on that is 100, too.

Dodge mods aren't useless...just not that effective, but they do add to your overall tankabilty. The same dodge mod will be more or less effective, depending on the dodge skill of the class using the mod.

Each 15 CE is the same as a level of Weapon Affinity. Melees will benefit greatly by gear that has CE. If you are a class that has limited double attack, Weapon affinity will make your big proc'ing weapons even more effective.

Edited, Sat Apr 1 20:52:19 2006 by Wiestrum
#29 Apr 01 2006 at 10:09 PM Rating: Decent
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mothompson wrote:
Avoidance: adds to AC, does it do anything else?


AC, as displayed in your window, has two factors to it: damage reduction and damage avoidence. Avoidance increases your damage avoidence rate, and, hence, your AC (since its based off, in part, your avoidence).

mothompson wrote:
Combat Effects: what does this do?


Increases chance to proc.

Some procs have inniate chances as low as 60-ish.. its possible to get Combat Effects to about +100, I believe is the cap. To these effects, 160/60 = ~2.67, so that's over one and a half times more likely to proc on them. Others have proc rates as high as 400.. 500/400 = 1.25, so only 25% better chance to proc.

mothompson wrote:
DoT shielding X%: does this shave X% of dmg off the top from NPCs casting DoTs on you?


Yup. (Capped at 35%, I believe.)

Edit: Corrected a grammar mistake.

Edited, Sat Apr 1 22:22:34 2006 by ReofblMobile
#30 Apr 01 2006 at 10:12 PM Rating: Decent
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877 posts
Wiestrum wrote:
Each 15 accuracy adds 1dps.


It's said that 15 Accuracy adds approximately 1% DPS. However, this is an approximation based off several high-end testers and their gear. In other cases, it very well may be higher or lower. 15 Accuracy = +1% DPS is just an estimation to give others a rough idea of how much it's helping them.
#31 Apr 01 2006 at 10:20 PM Rating: Decent
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Dex does affect your chance to hit.

Dex also affects:
-Chance to proc
-Bow damage
-Chance to suceed on many combines/skills

I respect the fellow who said it doesn't's opinion and input on things, but I'd be deeply surprised if I was wrong about chance to hit.

It may also affect more things.. not recalling any others at the moment.
#32 Apr 02 2006 at 12:07 AM Rating: Default
Quote:
but I'd be deeply surprised if I was wrong about chance to hit.


That's exactly how I was feeling. On my new rogue I started, he was hitting about 80% of the time with his 5 skill in piercing at level 1 for full damage; a stark contrast to what I'm used to on many of the other alts I've started who are melees. Maybe it's just me. He had about 181 dex at this point, which stands out a lot from standard starting stats.
____________________________
If a druid tanks in a forest, and nobody is around to see it, is he uber?
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Earthkeeper Brudish FrozenThorn
---
#33 Apr 02 2006 at 1:22 AM Rating: Decent
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282 posts
Your chance to hit is based on your attack, your melee skills, the mobs defensive skills, and if you are attacking from the front, or the back. It's not based on your dexterity.
#34 Apr 02 2006 at 1:25 AM Rating: Decent
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no offense but czae knows his stuff.
#35 Apr 02 2006 at 1:34 AM Rating: Decent
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282 posts
bleah! 15 accuracy equals 1 percent increase in dps. I shouldn't post this early in the morning, from work.

And dexterity affects chances to get critical hits, also. Not sure if it works the same way with the finger wigglers, if it increases chance to get criticals on direct damage spells, too.

not sure if this was addressed or not, already...but if you have a weapon that has multiple procs, only one of those will proc on any given round of attack. The game makes a roll on one proc, if it fails, it rolls for the next proc. If any roll succeeds, then the game quits checking for procs, on that round of attack. Multiple procs does increase your chance for A proc to happen in a round of attacks.

Edited, Sun Apr 2 01:37:24 2006 by Wiestrum

Edited, Sun Apr 2 01:42:37 2006 by Wiestrum

Edited, Sun Apr 2 01:44:18 2006 by Wiestrum
#36 Apr 02 2006 at 11:09 AM Rating: Default
I don't want this thread to delve too deep into casters but I know dex affects us by increasing our chances to cast through damage (coupled with channeling). My criticals always seem to be based off of the 2% chance I have to critical from the one level in critical nukage I have.
____________________________
If a druid tanks in a forest, and nobody is around to see it, is he uber?
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Earthkeeper Brudish FrozenThorn
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#37 Apr 02 2006 at 5:04 PM Rating: Default
I've another Rogue-based question: can you skill up backstab from the front?

Edit: I know it performs an extra attack from the front, that's why I'm asking.

Edited, Sun Apr 2 18:08:56 2006 by Brudish
____________________________
If a druid tanks in a forest, and nobody is around to see it, is he uber?
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Earthkeeper Brudish FrozenThorn
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#38 Apr 02 2006 at 8:15 PM Rating: Decent
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282 posts
no, you can't. You're piercing, not backstabbing. You can get chaotic stab aa so that you can backstab from the fron, but usually by that point, you're maxed BS skill anyway.
#39 Apr 02 2006 at 10:47 PM Rating: Good
Quote:
I don't want this thread to delve too deep into casters but I know dex affects us by increasing our chances to cast through damage (coupled with channeling). My criticals always seem to be based off of the 2% chance I have to critical from the one level in critical nukage I have

didn't a dev confirm that dex doesn't effect caster crits? although I'm not really sure, I dont really do casters much.

Quote:
Dodge mods aren't useless...just not that effective, but they do add to your overall tankabilty. The same dodge mod will be more or less effective, depending on the dodge skill of the class using the mod.

they are so close to useless that I, along with most other highend tanks I know come close disregarding them in item choice.

Quote:
Dex does affect your chance to hit.

Dex also affects:
-Chance to proc
-Bow damage
-Chance to suceed on many combines/skills

yeah, you're wrong. it may effect bow damage, I'm not really sure.

it doesn't effect melee accuracy. at all.

it has an absolutely minimal effect on chance to proc.

#40 Apr 03 2006 at 4:00 PM Rating: Decent
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Anyone know what the return on ATK over 1000 is, strictly dealing with damage? I thought that for every 100 points above, you gained an additional point in DMG...
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#41 Apr 03 2006 at 4:29 PM Rating: Good
attack rating, except that derived from strength, generally doesn't increase your damage. it just moves your damage to the higher end of the potential curve.
#42 Apr 03 2006 at 6:47 PM Rating: Decent
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didn't a dev confirm that dex doesn't effect caster crits? although I'm not really sure, I dont really do casters much.

I don't remember who it was, but yes, they did say dexterity does not. However, I can tell you that my chanter appears to crit ALOT more than other casters I group with, including wizards, with the same # of AAs to crits. Why that is, I don't know.

It could be because I cast more nukes (because I don't do as much damage, grabbing aggro is less of an issue for me). I also usually have Salik's on myself because I group cast it. Nearly every other caster I group with clicks it off immediately while I usually do not unless I need that buff slot for something specific. That may be part of it too. I'd like to see some tests on this, but haven't come across any and I'm too lazy to get too into depth on this myself.

Quote:

Dodge mods aren't useless...just not that effective, but they do add to your overall tankabilty. The same dodge mod will be more or less effective, depending on the dodge skill of the class using the mod.

they are so close to useless that I, along with most other highend tanks I know come close disregarding them in item choice.

I don't think anyone looks at this when choosing an item anymore. I looked at some parses on Steel Warrior someone did awhile back, I think using that LDoN dodge aug, and for warriors, the difference was small enough for me to disregard it as something worth trying to attain.
#43 Apr 04 2006 at 11:27 AM Rating: Default
Alright, so I've been toying with my rogue for a bit and I've got another question: does pick pocket cause any great deal of aggro? My evade hotkey is set up like this:

1: /attack off
2: /doab 4 (pick pocket), /pause 5
3: /doab 2 (hide)
4: /attack on

Then again, I hide after I pick pocket so I would still be getting moved down.

Regardless, does pick pocket affect my aggro a great deal?

Edit: Eeeeexcellent.

Edited, Tue Apr 4 13:16:59 2006 by Brudish
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#44 Apr 04 2006 at 11:50 AM Rating: Good
Quote:

Regardless, does pick pocket affect my aggro a great deal?

nope.
#45 Apr 04 2006 at 12:21 PM Rating: Decent
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I didnt read every single post but here are my thoughts:

-I think that 100 AGI increase your mitigation by 1%. It is probably different in different ranges, ie diminishing returns.

-Your BS damage is proportional to the damage of your peircer.

-as your damage bonus grows with your level you will want a weapon that is fast with a reasonable ratio, because the bonus will have a bigger effect on the overall ratio. You could look at the bonus table and calculate the ratio with the bonus to be sure of a close comparison. In your off hand the ratio is king though.



Edited, Tue Apr 4 13:26:14 2006 by zodon
#46 Apr 04 2006 at 12:27 PM Rating: Decent
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if you are soloing you can use bs from the from as a normal attack, it will do a small amount of damage like a normal hit.
#47 Apr 04 2006 at 12:47 PM Rating: Decent
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50 Rogue here, I have most of my skills capped (pre-50).

Evasion.
Good to practice not only to lose aggro but to keep yourself down the aggro list. I have hotbuttoned:
/attack off
/doability (# for hide)
/attack on

I use this after any type of high-output damage like a Backstab or weapons proc to keep aggro down. It will usually cause you to lose aggro if you have it, so hopefully the tank is next on the list and not a squishy caster!

People *say* rogues cannot solo but I disagree and would even go so far as to say it is a must to fight things from the front from time to time. Sure it is not easy, but the higher the defensive skills you have the better. Not known for off-tanking but rogues can be effective in stealing aggro from casters, and will better equipped to take the damage with defensive skills maxxed.

Work your skullduggery. I have that pick-pocket macro and I used it extensively to get skill to 200.

If you can get a weapon with a backstab mod, it does not matter which slot you put it, you will still get the mod (and as long as primary IS a peircer hehe otherwise 0 BS!)
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#48 Apr 04 2006 at 2:20 PM Rating: Decent
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Dothammer wrote:
50 Rogue here, I have most of my skills capped (pre-50).

Evasion.
Good to practice not only to lose aggro but to keep yourself down the aggro list. I have hotbuttoned:
/attack off
/doability (# for hide)
/attack on

I use this after any type of high-output damage like a Backstab or weapons proc to keep aggro down. It will usually cause you to lose aggro if you have it, so hopefully the tank is next on the list and not a squishy caster!


Ok. I have never played a rogue, so not sure if this applies to me or not. I play a DE enchanter. Since I have hide, can I lower my aggro in a fight by hiding after a nuke?

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#49 Apr 04 2006 at 2:20 PM Rating: Good
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sir groogle wrote:


Brud wrote:
Alright, so I've been toying with my rogue for a bit and I've got another question: does pick pocket cause any great deal of aggro? My evade hotkey is set up like this:

1: /attack off
2: /doab 4 (pick pocket), /pause 5
3: /doab 2 (hide)
4: /attack on

Then again, I hide after I pick pocket so I would still be getting moved down.

Regardless, does pick pocket affect my aggro a great deal?

nope.


1) I would disagree with Sir Groogle on the PP aggro. PP can affect your aggro when you fail, which could be quite often or even every time if the mob is higher in level. When you fail there is a good chance of getting a signinficant aggro ramp boost, though the aggro is not a certainty. Over a long fight it could be a noticible change.

2) I would seprate my evade and PP into seperate macros, and do not use the pp that often. The reason being is that the extra long stoppage in attacking from the sample macro will cost you more dps than needed since the PP timer is much longer than the hide/evade timer. You might also want to keep the above macro and make an evade only macro and use the evade one primarily and the PP/Evade occasionaly to get you PP up. I am also not sure the pause is needed.


Quote:

Ok. I have never played a rogue, so not sure if this applies to me or not. I play a DE enchanter. Since I have hide, can I lower my aggro in a fight by hiding after a nuke?


Sorry, no. Evade is a rogue only ability.

Edited, Tue Apr 4 15:25:24 2006 by fhrugby
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#50 Apr 04 2006 at 2:48 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
1) I would disagree with Sir Groogle on the PP aggro. PP can affect your aggro when you fail, which could be quite often or even every time if the mob is higher in level. When you fail there is a good chance of getting a signinficant aggro ramp boost, though the aggro is not a certainty. Over a long fight it could be a noticible change.

2) I would seprate my evade and PP into seperate macros, and do not use the pp that often. The reason being is that the extra long stoppage in attacking from the sample macro will cost you more dps than needed since the PP timer is much longer than the hide/evade timer. You might also want to keep the above macro and make an evade only macro and use the evade one primarily and the PP/Evade occasionaly to get you PP up. I am also not sure the pause is needed.


RE: #1, I still wouldn't call it 'significant', even on a fail. It's pretty small increase in aggro generation, however, I do agree with your second point as far as removing PP from evade macros as it can be 'significant' in this case because you are trying to lose aggro and I have had a couple times where I grabbed aggro from PP right after successful evade.

As far as rogues soloing, by strafing and moving around you can sometimes get in a backstab on mobs that are facing you if you can get them to turn and then you move behind them fast enough. It takes reall good timing. I lack the skill to be able to do this effectively myself, but I've seen a couple rogues get in quite a few backstabs doing this during a fight even though they are the only ones fighting a mob (not the AA front backstab thing, real full damage backstabs).

Edit: Because I cannot seem to type well today.

Edited, Tue Apr 4 15:53:49 2006 by Semiopaque
#51 Apr 04 2006 at 3:00 PM Rating: Default
Well, since I hide after the PP, and it's rare that the PP will get me aggro, and I'm more likely to successfully evade than I am of getting aggro from PP, I think it's fine where it is.

Also, the time it takes is not long, it's about a second from my last melee round to it being turned back on. The /pause 5 only means half a second and it's just to make sure there's time for hide to activate (because sometimes when abilities are activated too close together it says "You cannot use this ability now") and also so that attack is getting turned back on.

Edit: Also, PP and hide/evade all have the same timer as backstab. They're all 6 seconds (I think). I'm certain they're the same duration though. (I don't mean that when you pp/hide you can't backstab when I say same timer).

Edited, Tue Apr 4 16:03:14 2006 by Brudish

Edited, Wed Apr 5 15:27:29 2006 by Brudish
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