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Raiding as a warriorFollow

#1 Jul 22 2005 at 11:49 AM Rating: Excellent
I'll add more stuff later.

General stuffs!
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1. Know before you engage how much you have to be shrunk in order to corner. In some zones, fully shrunken you -cannot- corner, in others (like qvic,) you cannot corner unless you are fully shrunken.

2. Always carry at least two sets of weapons. Carry a set of augged one handers for aggro, and a two hander for when you aren't tanking. When using your two-hander, always have your one-handers nearby to switch in, you never know when you will need them.

3. Do -not- use a blade of war (or any 2h, the exception being an MSC, or if you're really worried about ripostes,) as an aggro weapon. The aggro from an augged butcher's blade and an augged sword of mw vengeance outweigh the aggro from an augged blade of war, and are certainly easier to get!

4. Always carry an incarnadine breastplate, some shrinking device, and some sort of gate item (if you do not have origin.)

5. Use fortitude, not furious. Fortitude is 360 degree avoidance. The chance of you getting stunspinned, or another mob coming from behind you and killing you is serious enough that the extra safety of fortitude by far outweighs the extra dps of furious.

Aggro
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1. Do not be afraid to take aggro off a caster, even if you are not the maintank/stank. Having a mob aggroed on a poorly geared warrior is far better than a having a mob aggroed on a great geared enchanter - an EP warrior has more survivability than a tacvi enchanter, and the raid loses less if the EP warrior dies. Unless you are in a zone that spawns adds on deaths, and you are extremely undergeared, you will -never- get in trouble for taking aggro off a caster, even if you die.

2. Do not use aggro weapons on boss mobs, unless you are tanking. Turning the mob is bad when you aren't tanking, especially if it's enraged or has targetted aoes. With modern weapons and aggro abilities, you should be able to grab aggro instantly if the need arises, even going from using your 2h.

3. On trash tanking, if another tank has already established aggro on a mob, try not to steal it, especially if it's a hard-hitting mob. It does not matter if you are the main tank and he's #9, unless you have three times the hp he does, a death is more likely to be caused by you losing aggro and healers being slow than by him continuing to tank.

4. Do not be afraid to step up to the plate! If the maintank goes down (or simply fails to hold aggro to begin with!) and tanks higher than you in the tank order do not grab aggro immediately, maybe they are afk, sleeping, or simply inattentive. it is far preferable that the 'wrong' warrior tanks a boss for a while than letting the boss kill your casters.

5. In zones where there is a good chance that trash mobs will add, and there is a good chance that trash will kill casters quickly, do not be afraid to stand in whatever direction trash mobs are coming from, ready to pick them up. Having you watching for trash is in many cases far better than having your extra melee dps and half a dozen dead people. Trust your judgement about this - if you think that hard-hitting mobs might add, be ready for them, and not meleeing.

Edited, Fri Jul 22 12:51:48 2005 by Groogle
#2 Jul 22 2005 at 12:03 PM Rating: Good
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Thank you! That was a great post.
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#3 Jul 22 2005 at 12:15 PM Rating: Decent
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Another thing, dye your armor so that you are VISABLE. I have seen warriors running around with these dark color schemes "because it looks cool." These same warriors then wonder why the raid goes rushing past them instead of staying behind them not realizing that no one can see them. Try raiding Akheva Ruins with a dark colored tank and you will see what I mean FAST.

You don't have to take some gawd awful pink and light blue scheme, but at least something that stands out. Red trimmed with grey works really well and still looks good.
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#4 Jul 22 2005 at 2:29 PM Rating: Decent
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I agree on 99% of what Groogle said.

I want to add 1 very important detail.

When picking up aggro off your cleric/caster and EXSPECIALLY off your chanter do NOT do ANY damage. I dont care if you aggro isn't near as good without attacking.

Provoke/incite/taunt/AE Taunt = Hero

Attack/kick/bash = Heel

I have died TOO many times from my 'savior' attacking the mob I just channled thru and mezzed.

To be honest SK's and PAL's do a better job at non damage aggro. That is why they are assigned the job on raids of distracting adds untill locked down by the enchanter but if you see one they missed running over and taunting and provoking to buy the chanter some uninterupted time to put that mob on ice is GREATLY appricated.

I may argue against
Quote:
an EP warrior has more survivability than a tacvi enchanter

with the condition we are talking with out heals. But that is a discussion for a different thread. :)
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#5 Jul 22 2005 at 2:36 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
2. Always carry at least two sets of weapons. Carry a set of augged one handers for aggro, and a two hander for when you aren't tanking. When using your two-hander, always have your one-handers nearby to switch in, you never know when you will need them.

Quote:
2. Do not use aggro weapons on boss mobs, unless you are tanking. Turning the mob is bad when you aren't tanking, especially if it's enraged or has targetted aoes. With modern weapons and aggro abilities, you should be able to grab aggro instantly if the need arises, even going from using your 2h.

Sorry, but if your main tank cannot maintain aggro with other people using their best weapons, then the main tank needs to step down and let someone else tank or they need to upgrade their weapons. To help with this, most guilds will let the main tank "solo" the mob for a few seconds before everyone else starts attacking.

Quote:
3. Do -not- use a blade of war (or any 2h, the exception being an MSC, or if you're really worried about ripostes,) as an aggro weapon. The aggro from an augged butcher's blade and an augged sword of mw vengeance outweigh the aggro from an augged blade of war, and are certainly easier to get!

Unless the Blade of War is your best weapon.

Quote:
4. Always carry an incarnadine breastplate, some shrinking device, and some sort of gate item (if you do not have origin.)
I would retype that as: "Always carry some form of invisibility (incardine BP, potions, gnomish vanishing device), some method of shrinking (cloak from the Deep?, potions, gnomish shirking device, cobalt bracer) and a gate item."

Quote:
1. Do not be afraid to take aggro off a caster, even if you are not the maintank/stank. Having a mob aggroed on a poorly geared warrior is far better than a having a mob aggroed on a great geared enchanter - an EP warrior has more survivability than a tacvi enchanter, and the raid loses less if the EP warrior dies. Unless you are in a zone that spawns adds on deaths, and you are extremely undergeared, you will -never- get in trouble for taking aggro off a caster, even if you die.

Learn to take aggro without damaging the mob, in the event that it is a mezzable mob.

Quote:
3. On trash tanking, if another tank has already established aggro on a mob, try not to steal it, especially if it's a hard-hitting mob. It does not matter if you are the main tank and he's #9, unless you have three times the hp he does, a death is more likely to be caused by you losing aggro and healers being slow than by him continuing to tank.

Hopefully, your raid will establish a trash main tank (usually paladin or sk for the snap aggro). Don't steal aggro from that person.
#6 Jul 22 2005 at 2:44 PM Rating: Good
Quote:
When picking up aggro off your cleric/caster and EXSPECIALLY off your chanter do NOT do ANY damage. I dont care if you aggro isn't near as good without attacking.

well yeah, that was mostly aimed at nonmezzable trash tanking. I don't deal with mezzable stuff (well, either that or the enchanters are just lazy...) very often.

Quote:
Sorry, but if your main tank cannot maintain aggro with other people using their best weapons, then the main tank needs to step down and let someone else tank or they need to upgrade their weapons. To help with this, most guilds will let the main tank "solo" the mob for a few seconds before everyone else starts attacking.

you have never raided, have you?...

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Unless the Blade of War is your best weapon.

and, yeah, given that the two weapons I named are one groupable weapons that cost under 30k, if a bowar is your best weapon you suck.

Quote:
Hopefully, your raid will establish a trash main tank (usually paladin or sk for the snap aggro). Don't steal aggro from that person.

the wonders of multi-unmezzable mob pulls.

regardless of 'set' tank order, you should not pull aggro off another tank after he's established it - if he has aggro when you're supposed to on trash, it's probably your fault, and you're a lot more likely to kill someone by switching tanks than by letting an undergeared tank tank.
#7 Jul 22 2005 at 2:46 PM Rating: Good
Quote:
with the condition we are talking with out heals. But that is a discussion for a different thread. :)

you should always go in with the mindset that casters die faster than you, though.

and besides, even though chaining rune may end up working better, I'd much rather have an ep warrior dead then a tacvi enchanter ;-)
#8 Jul 22 2005 at 3:16 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
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Unless the Blade of War is your best weapon.
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and, yeah, given that the two weapons I named are one groupable weapons that cost under 30k, if a bowar is your best weapon you suck.


I have a lvl 70 warrior with a BOW maxed offensive aa's including flurry and 2h slashing and hove no peoblems holding aggro with BOW. I find I have aggro problems using a couple of two handers depending on how you have spent your aa's will make a big difference if you suck or not. In case your wondering I have tanked MPG, RS lower planes raids, elemental planes raids. the only time I would make a comment like you suck is if a tank has a bad habbit of not getting aggro before calling assist. They have alot of tools to hold keep and snap aggro if you find you are having aggro issues take some time and figure out how to use you taunt, discs to keep aggro. If you find certain catser types are pulling aggro due to high damage nukes well the casters need to learn their class and nuke when appropriate. When raiding our raid leader will instruct the casters when to start slow nukes and dots and when to do full burn. As for guild groups it is not a bad idea to get in the habit of main tank grabbing aggro and callling assist. For pick up groups your on your own you get good one and bad ones you will know real soon which type it is.
#9 Jul 22 2005 at 3:25 PM Rating: Good
Quote:
have a lvl 70 warrior with a BOW maxed offensive aa's including flurry and 2h slashing and hove no peoblems holding aggro with BOW. I find I have aggro problems using a couple of two handers depending on how you have spent your aa's will make a big difference if you suck or not. In case your wondering I have tanked MPG, RS lower planes raids, elemental planes raids. the only time I would make a comment like you suck is if a tank has a bad habbit of not getting aggro before calling assist. They have alot of tools to hold keep and snap aggro if you find you are having aggro issues take some time and figure out how to use you taunt, discs to keep aggro. If you find certain catser types are pulling aggro due to high damage nukes well the casters need to learn their class and nuke when appropriate. When raiding our raid leader will instruct the casters when to start slow nukes and dots and when to do full burn. As for guild groups it is not a bad idea to get in the habit of main tank grabbing aggro and callling assist. For pick up groups your on your own you get good one and bad ones you will know real soon which type it is.

it's not a bad weapon, but it falls behind in aggro compared to pretty much any dualwield setup augged with CSIV or EB
#10 Jul 22 2005 at 5:13 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Another thing, dye your armor so that you are VISABLE. I have seen warriors running around with these dark color schemes "because it looks cool." These same warriors then wonder why the raid goes rushing past them instead of staying behind them not realizing that no one can see them. Try raiding Akheva Ruins with a dark colored tank and you will see what I mean FAST.

You don't have to take some gawd awful pink and light blue scheme, but at least something that stands out. Red trimmed with grey works really well and still looks good.


why not pink? one of the top warriors on used to be vazaelle worn pink. that's one sexy ogre male that got all the chicks I tell you.
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#11 Jul 22 2005 at 8:10 PM Rating: Decent
Never knock pink! I've had many issues teaching my guild to raid - but getting them to see and follow me has never been one of them!

I wear pink - though I am a pally, so I'm not sure it counts.
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#12 Jul 22 2005 at 9:13 PM Rating: Good
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Sir Groogle wrote:
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Sorry, but if your main tank cannot maintain aggro with other people using their best weapons, then the main tank needs to step down and let someone else tank or they need to upgrade their weapons. To help with this, most guilds will let the main tank "solo" the mob for a few seconds before everyone else starts attacking.

you have never raided, have you?...



Lol. I was going to make the same comment.

The MT on a raid is generally going to be the guy with the best AC/HP, defensive abilities, and applicable AAs. It's not uncommon at all for tanks number 2-10 to all have the exact same agro generation capability on their "top" weapons that the chosen MT does. The difference is that he's got maybe a bit better chance of surviving. Heck, in some cases, it's just a matter of which player is more familiar with the encounter. Good positioning will make or break many encounters far more often then a few hundred HPS, or a few dozen AA points.


Thus, you must assume that if you're using your most agro generating weapons, and so is the identically weaponed MT, you might just steal agro from him every once in awhile, even without actively trying. Maybe you'll get away with it 9 times out of 10, but the one time you grab agro, even for a half second, you'll cause a wipe.

It's just easier to do exactly what Czae says. Have one set of weapons for agro generation (a pair of augged 1hers), and another for dps (a 2h weapon auged for damage perhaps?). Even if you do slightly less dps with your 2her combo, or even if you don't feel as "uber" with it on, the success of a raid is about everyone in the raid. Tanks, somewhat by defintion, tend to have the lowest dps's in the game. Your dps really isn't mattering that much, so your weapon choice doesn't matter that much. Unless you use a weapon set that might grab agro from the MT, in which case you've just made a whole lot of people angry.


You could literally have every single non-tanking paladin, sk, or warrior on your raid engage the mob with bare fists, and not significantly change the odds that your raid force will win the encounter. Weapon choice for non-tanking tanks is almost exclusively about not taking agro accidentally. Nothing else matters that much...
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#13 Jul 22 2005 at 9:39 PM Rating: Good
Quote:
The MT on a raid is generally going to be the guy with the best AC/HP, defensive abilities, and applicable AAs. It's not uncommon at all for tanks number 2-10 to all have the exact same agro generation capability on their "top" weapons that the chosen MT does. The difference is that he's got maybe a bit better chance of surviving. Heck, in some cases, it's just a matter of which player is more familiar with the encounter. Good positioning will make or break many encounters far more often then a few hundred HPS, or a few dozen AA points.

or even just a difference in who has defensive up.

I remember as a 10k unbuffed tank with a SEWS tanking over a 12k unbuffed tank with a darkblade, just because I had defensive up.

or even just a baby-tank needing practice. it's not good to keep someone from tanking anything until they are the top tank, and then expect them to know how.

Edited, Fri Jul 22 22:41:02 2005 by Groogle
#14 Jul 24 2005 at 3:14 PM Rating: Decent
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People need to learn how to tank at some point. Asking someone to step down because they dont have as good gear is just retarded.

VT is a perfect example of a zone where u should never try to outagro or steal mobs from other tanks. If 10 mobs are coming to camp u should have enough to get your own. If u take someone elses there will be one running free killing casters.

The main tank is very important not to steal agro from. The chc is gonna heal him not you.

Pink is a good color imo for tanks that people need to see(aka the guy who says move up but dont go past me).
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#15 Jul 24 2005 at 7:55 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:

You could literally have every single non-tanking paladin, sk, or warrior on your raid engage the mob with bare fists, and not significantly change the odds that your raid force will win the encounter. Weapon choice for non-tanking tanks is almost exclusively about not taking agro accidentally. Nothing else matters that much...


Lol, you are quite right Gbaji. It sems that at times people forget just how simple the basic strategies really are.

Tank holds aggro, healers keep the tank alive, nukers kill the mob. That is all there is to it.

Our raid team uses both warriors and knights to tank, depending on the mob. We are blessed with 5-6 good warriors, 4 good Pallies and 3 god SKs pretty much at every raid.

For the mobs that the warriors tank, we use a rotation, MT1 to MT5, we try to use the same rotation each time we do the mob so that they get to know the encounters well. The Tank leader rotates the warriors so that there is always a couple with the necessary disciplines up for each encounter.

So MT2 will be using his aggro weapons because he is likely to have to tank (damage spike, heal chain lag, dead cleric etc all can happen at any time). MT3-5 will be using DPS or just standing back waiting to see if they are needed. Obviously if MT2 becomes MT, then MT3 equips his aggro weapons and starts building some aggro. They never ever pull aggro off one another.

The Knights are on OT duty most of the time and are organised in a similar way OT1-OT5, again, they mostly work in small teams with a Chanter and healer and seldom engage the same mob. Often I see them standing around waiting for the adds to arrive, rather than cluttering up the melee.
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#16 Jul 25 2005 at 2:34 AM Rating: Decent
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'Tank holds aggro, healers keep the tank alive, nukers kill the mob. That is all there is to it."

Gotta give your high DPS melees their due, God I wish I could out DPS the rogue. Themguys would still need to have their weapons in at least =P.
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#17 Jul 25 2005 at 4:26 AM Rating: Good
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I would also say that the glory days of the Blade of War, which was given a hotspot in EQ folklore, are long behind us. It might do its job in standard xp groups with the casually geared people, but once you progress to the later stages of the game, I would strongly recommend equipped two onehanders.

Not to boast, but I'm absoluetly certain my rogue will end up tanking if my warrior tank would have a twohander equipped.

Eivi's guild uses warriors, even to clear trash mobs. They never ever equip a twohander. They might swap to a sword and shield on the very DPS-heavy boss mobs, but in general an augmented twohander will not case steady aggro, while 2 augmented onehanders certainly will.
#18 Jul 25 2005 at 7:45 AM Rating: Decent
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One other tip if your Raid is bit weak on Clerics and Strong on Warriors you can with a bit of practice switch tanks mid fight.
When Stonewall is 3/4 used have the second Tank move to the front of the mob switch to Agro weapons the current Tank switches to a 2 hander and stops taunting. The New tank starts taunting after the secong Taunt or and agro proc, the new tank hits Stonewall then incite. Once agro has been Transfered the first tank stops attack for about 10-20 sec and moves the the back of the mob.

This works very well for long drawn-out fights
#19 Jul 25 2005 at 11:07 AM Rating: Decent
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If your Not a MT, setting up a /Shield HotKey for your Groups Cleric, or Enchanter is also not a bad Idea. I think /Shield is under rated and can save a casters life and get that aggro off if him/her.

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#20 Jul 25 2005 at 10:27 PM Rating: Decent
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Good post.

Agreed on the 1 one handers vs. BoW discussion. One handers win easily for aggro.

We've been having some discussion among the tanks about stealing aggro from another tank, and its agreed its a no no. If a mob is aggro'd on a tank, cycle through any other mobs in the area.

In an ideal world MT no. 2 would be close behind MT no. 1 on the aggro list... however its damn hard to judge that.

I know from experience that running 3 dots, AC tap, Atk tap non-aggro setup (epic 1.5 in my case) will keep me just below the aggro of our warriors (Dual wielding epic 1.5 and DBoW for the most part).

It may be a bit patronising but I've seen some warriors plow through enrage and bite the dust. Not pretty. And trying to get aggro during rage is not the most pleasant thing....

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#21 Jul 26 2005 at 4:35 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
It may be a bit patronising but I've seen some warriors plow through enrage and bite the dust. Not pretty. And trying to get aggro during rage is not the most pleasant thing....


I told my girlfriend to keep backstabbing, but also to turn off attack on enrage. Our tanks have pristine aggro, but certain classes (/cough wizards) often seem to cast one nuke too much at the end of the fight, which, apart from a good laugh, has caused sufficient collateral damage ;-) . (a.k.a. dead rogues and monks)
#22 Jul 28 2005 at 8:24 PM Rating: Good
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Goalkeeper wrote:
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It may be a bit patronising but I've seen some warriors plow through enrage and bite the dust. Not pretty. And trying to get aggro during rage is not the most pleasant thing....


I told my girlfriend to keep backstabbing, but also to turn off attack on enrage. Our tanks have pristine aggro, but certain classes (/cough wizards) often seem to cast one nuke too much at the end of the fight, which, apart from a good laugh, has caused sufficient collateral damage ;-) . (a.k.a. dead rogues and monks)


There are also some mobs that are remarkably difficult to keep aimed in a specific direction. Depending on positioning, mob melee box size, pinning tactic used, and a dozen other factors, there are some fights where it is best for all melee to just stop attacking when that enrage hits.

Where you see this alot is when there's a huge melee push. Some mobs push more then others. Presumably, you'll wall/corner in that situation, but sometimes you can't, or positioning gets off for some reason. It happens to the best tanks. Try positioning for a raid sometime before criticising on this issue. It's sometimes something like trying to ride a bunking bronco while seated backwards. In any case, what happens is that melee push can easily push the mob past the MT if you don't have the right positioning. When that happens, the mob turns towards the tank. Since the tank is now *behind* the mob, that means it's facing the rest of the melee.

I've seen this happen with some summoning mobs as well. There are a lot of mobs that seem to have a habit of summoning you behind them instead of directly in front of them. I'm not sure if this is zone specific, melee box size specific or what, but I've seen it happen often enough for it to be something to think about.


Guess what I'm saying here is that positioning is not as simple as many might think, and it's probably one of the most critical factors for success on a raid event. Everytime I hear someone describe tanking as "easy" because you just hit autoattack and mash your combat buttons as they come up, I cringe. It's really really really much more difficult then that. You have to continually adjust your position and distance relative to the mob. Get too far away and you'll get summoned (which could result in a mob turn). Get too close and melee push and a short lag spike can result in a mob turn as well. And as I described earlier, some mobs are just more "jumpy" then others, and are just hard as heck to lead around to where you want them.

There's a hell of a lot to tanking successfully for a raid. You have to learn the movement behaviors of different mobs. It takes a lot of practice, and it is *not* easy.
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#23 Jul 28 2005 at 8:29 PM Rating: Good
on that note, you need to be super careful on a lot of don dragons, they turn on a pin
#24 Jul 28 2005 at 10:17 PM Rating: Decent
Quote:
1. Know before you engage how much you have to be shrunk in order to corner. In some zones, fully shrunken you -cannot- corner, in others (like qvic,) you cannot corner unless you are fully shrunken.


Newbie question.

Corner...?

Edited, Thu Jul 28 23:16:47 2005 by TheMightyMagnu
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#25 Jul 28 2005 at 10:36 PM Rating: Decent
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Cornering is getting a mob to a corner of a room so he wont be pushed all over the place(when you can) Boxing is when you can't corner the mob and have to try to balance your push.
#26 Jul 29 2005 at 9:54 AM Rating: Good
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Interesting points for those that dont tank in raids. Also a side note, not one of our tanks would ever have their epic and bbob out if they weren't MT or grabbing agro. Using agro weapons to pick up some agro incase of MT dying, we don't do that, when MT dies second tank spams all they got and grabs agro. I prefer AE Taunt / Rampage, Press the Attack, Bazu Bellow and Taunt when tank goes splat and im next. Also on MT dying and new tank gaining agro, good idea to pop rip disc as this will allow healers the time needed to work out who new tank is, you hope :). Tbh most peeps on raids now the TL before engage but rip gives you more of a fighting chance.
#27 Jul 29 2005 at 6:17 PM Rating: Good
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TheMightyMagnu wrote:
Quote:
1. Know before you engage how much you have to be shrunk in order to corner. In some zones, fully shrunken you -cannot- corner, in others (like qvic,) you cannot corner unless you are fully shrunken.


Newbie question.

Corner...?


There are several general tactics for stable positioning of a raid type mob (and honestly, you can use some on normal group mobs as well). One of the first things to remember is that raid mobs, somewhat by definition take longer to kill then normal mobs. They also often have AEs that require precise positioning, and they may have nasty ripostes and/or directional procs/AEs that require that all but the tank be behind the mob. The result is that raid mob encounters are more vulnerable to the melee effect then normal group mobs. When you've got 30 people all beating on one side of a mob, and just one on the other, the mob will move in the direction away from the 30. When that fight lasts several minutes (sometimes 10s of minutes) that become significant, since it's entirely possible for the mob to be pushed far enough so that the MT is out of range of the healers. You'd prefer not to have your healers have to move anyway, and in some fights they *can't* move because they need to stay in a particular spot to shield them from the Mob's AE effect.


Cornering: This is probably the simpliest tactic. Find a nearby corner and back up to it, dragging the mob with you. The mob can't move through the wall, so it'll kinda smash up against the corner, hopefully leaving it's rear exposed to the rest of the melee force. The problem is that depending on the mob and the tank, the melee boxes may cross in such a way that the "center" of the mob gets pushed past the tank (despite how far back the tank is). Sometimes, this can be fixed by growing the tank. Sometimes by shrinking him. Sometimes, you can't avoid mob turn in a corner at all. It's something that's specific to each situation and has to be learned as part of the strategy for killing the mob.


Walling: If there's no convenient corner, you position against a wall. Tank stands with one side to a wall, with mob in front of him. Melee force stands as much as possible at a 90 degree angle to the wall (facing the wall). Done correctly, the majority of the melee push will be sideways directly into the wall. You'll still tend to get a small amount of push back into the tank, but it's much slower then if everyone was behind the mob. The nice thing about walling is that you can theorectically move the mob forward or back along the wall at different speeds by shifting the melee force from anywhere directly behind the mob (180 degrees) to directly in front of the mob (0 degrees). This brings us to the next tactic:

Boxing: This is a varient of walling. Normally, in walling you want to avoid having folks in front of the mob, but also don't want them all behind, so you try to range around to the side as much as possible. In some specific situations, you need to have them move from one end to the other to move the mob, or you just need the mob as stable as possible, so you arrange your force evenly around it. Against mobs with minimal riposte, but maybe a really large AE that'll decimate your healers ability to heal, the precision of the positioning matters more then some membrs of your melee force taking an occasional riposte. In those kinds of fights, you might have someone designated to watch the position of the mob and call out "front", "behind", and "middle" to tell the melee's to push from the front, behind, or range in the middle (try to keep it in one spot). Alternatively, you can also do boxing without a wall, but it's pretty freaking hard to do. Usually, if you want a mob in one spot, but not against a wall, you do the following:


Pinwheel: The pinwheel is when you need a mob to be kept in a specific spot, but don't have a convenient wall or corner to use (or perhaps don't want to use a wall or corner due to LoS issues perhaps, which was a huge deal with archery in some expansions). Perhaps there's an AE, but the only way to shield your casters requires that the mob be in the open and the casters behind a block or wall. Perhaps there isn't an AE at all, but you'd rather your casters not have to move to adjust to mob movement. Perhaps due to the encounter, there's some reason you have to fight a mob in the middle of a room (leashed to a spot perhaps). Heck. Maybe there just isn't anything around at all. In any case, it's kinda similar to walling, except without the wall. The tank stands at the front of the mob. Everyone else gets to one side of the mob. This will tend to push the mob to one side, but since it's agroed on the tank, it'll constantly adjust its heading to face the tank. This will cause the mob to slowly rotate around a point. The tank just kinda keeps turning around on a single spot while the rest of the melee force keeps moving around in a big circle, keeping the flank of the mob in front of them as it rotates around the tank. Done properly, you can keep the MT in a single spot, and the mob in a relatively small circle around him, while keeping the rest of the melee group safe from ripostes. This is probably one of the more difficult tactics to pull off because it requires that your entire melee force move constantly. You will lose some dps doing this, and lag spikes can easily result in riposte damage to lots of people. But it's a better alternative to just having the melee force push the mob around in front of them, and can be used when that's going to cause a problem.


Most encounters will use some varient or combination of one or more of those 4 techniques. In many situations, it really doesn't matter. All of them require that the tank and the melee force understand what is being done and why, and do the right thing. In any encounter where mob positioning really matters (which is a good number of them), you're going to want to figure out which method to use. That's going to depend on the geometry in the area, the melee box size and type of the mob, the push rate of the mob, what AE/procs the mob has, what rate and degree of ripostes it's got, and potentially a number of encounter script specific issues that are way to numerous to discuss here.

And you thought raiding was easy? ;)
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