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Grouping: Basic things to remember...Follow

#1 Feb 24 2004 at 10:27 AM Rating: Excellent
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Grouping: Basic things to remember...
1. Stay in "camp", don't run off after the puller. He can pull just fine, he doesn't need you standing next to him and agroing adds.

2. It's called /assist, we've chosen a Main Tank, the main tank will chose which mob to kill, so /assist and help the Main Tank kill. Leave the Adds, if any alone and let the CC person take care of them.

3. Root parking: If we don't have a chanter for mezzing, then one of us is going to root park adds, if possible. Learn to split the mobs apart, if I say one is rooted, so they both aren't beating on you, so I don't have to waste as much mana, healing 2-3 people, instead of just the Main Tank.

4. Calm/Pacify mobs: Not such a big deal, post 46 and KEI, were mana becomes a lot easier to regen, but pre-46 and if there's no Mana regen readily available, wait for calm, instead of pulling 3-4 mobs. I'd rather spend 50 mana per calming on 3 mobs, than having to wast half my mana bar healing because the puller is to keen.

5. Someone lead the group/ communicate: Especially in a pickup group.
Nothing ****** me off more than being in a group and having no leader or communication. Step up and direct the group, don't be rude, but ask people to do things, give them a roll in the group. Assign a Main Tank at the start. Assign healing, crowd control, who's going to assist. It's basic stuff to do, at the start and I find makes thing normally run a lot smoother. If you're polite but direct, most people don't mind being told what to do, especially if the group starts to work well and the exp is flowing.
I don't mean for you to tell another person "How to play their class", that annoys me as much as the next guy.
And learn to follow orders, if you have a group leader, even in a pickup group. We do it on Raids, why can't we do the same in a group, even a pickup group. If you have a good leader, have the common sense to do as he/she asks.
I've had some fantastic pickup groups over the years, simply because the 6 of us had the common sense to get orginised and work as a team.

Any other basic tips for grouping, that we should all try and remember?


Edited, Thu Sep 16 06:39:51 2004 by lagduff
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#2 Feb 24 2004 at 10:33 AM Rating: Default
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Assign a main looter and make sure he has autosplit on ;-)
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#3 Feb 24 2004 at 11:27 AM Rating: Good
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Know your class Specificaly, your spell duration. If you are buffing haste, armor, etc., try to know about how long they take to wear off so you can recast without the tank having to ask "can I have haste?" every 5 minutes. If you don't know, buff yourself at the same time until you learn. Group buffs are great for this because your buff will expire as soon as everyone else's does. When I am playing my druid, I am usually recasting before anyone asks. Makes things smoother.

Use Hotbuttons If you are a caster, use hotbuttons to assist, heal and buff so you can stand, cast#, and tell the group what you are doing with one click. For example [/stand, /g healing %t, /cast 1]. It makes things faster and the other healer (for example) will know not to waste mana on someone that you are already healing. If you are the puller/tank, use hotbuttons so everyone knows what you are pulling, attacking, etc.

Help If you are not melee, make a hotbutton for telling people that you are taking aggro. Mine is /g I am taking aggro, please get this %t off me."

Nukes and Aggro Some classes have some very impressive nukes, but please know when to use them and when to use a lower dps spell. Its counterproductive for a tank to be chasing a mob, whos chasing the caster, who just nuked the mob for 300 points of non-melee damage.

Meditate Some of this is basic, I know, but when playing the lower level alt (Warrior) I have seen cleric MH getting into melee with the mobs. That's not your job if you are MH - heal and med, or pacify, heal and med whatever the case may be.

Rooting if you're going to root adds, make a hotbutton to let people know that you have done so. Sometimes the tanks don't see it and sometimes they see it but can't tell if the roots were green (ensnare) or brown (root). I use the following hotbuttons: [/cast 2, /g snaring a %t] and [/cast 3, /g rooting a %t - back away from it]

Be Patient If the healer is OOM, wait for the freaking pull. I can't believe the players who still violate this rule even at higher levels. So many healers are pleasantly suprised by my warrior's willingness to wait for med. I'm sure that I am more patient simply because I have been on the other end of the tank/healer equation.

Follow the Leader This was said in the last post, but its really important...too many chefs and all that. When I lead the group (for instance on an LDoN) I suggest MT, MH, ML and puller assignments, get longer term buffs, and send everyone off toward the zone before accepting the adventure. This allows plenty of time to get there and med to full before entering. As a side note, doing this politely and effectively with my alt earned me a very nice guild invite from one of the "lower level" players I was with who happened to be an officer in a very cool guild. (we be rading MM tonite...woot!) That, plus the fact that I re-invited her for split at the conclusion of the adventure, even though she never entered the dungeon (forgot to update the expansion on that account). Nice guys finish last my a$$!


Some of this is pretty basic, but since its still a problem for some, it bears repeating. Just my Smiley: twocents

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#4 Feb 24 2004 at 12:10 PM Rating: Good
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I have to disagree with having auto-split on. If you are using a ML, it is much better for them to split at the end. Auto-split does not make change. If you have a 6 person group, and the ML loots 5pp4gp, none will split to the others in the group. Loot distribution will end up very unbalanced.
#5 Feb 24 2004 at 12:59 PM Rating: Decent
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If you spend all your time making sure other players are playing "right", you probably aren't paying enough attention to your own character.

Sometimes things go wrong and you will die. The sooner you get over it and stop throwing a hissy fit and try to assign blame, the sooner you can get back to playing.

If you don't know, ask already. You may feel stupid for asking what that acronym stands for or what the raid leader meant, but you'll feel a **** of alot stupider if you get everyone killed.

There's a big yellow message telling everyone in the group that you broke mez. Stop claiming that it wasn't you.
#6 Feb 24 2004 at 1:07 PM Rating: Decent
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Let the Main Tank do their job. The MT should be allowed to establish aggro before everyone else jumps in and starts beating on the mob. When you have 3 or 4 different people competing for aggro, the healer ends up having to use way too much mana in useless heals.

That is why you have a MT. To take the aggro and hold it so that everyone else can do their jobs. The healer should call for off-tanks if needed as they usually have the best view of the action, and are not directly involved in combat.
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#7 Feb 24 2004 at 4:08 PM Rating: Good
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taunt dont mash the tuant button unless you are training skill in taunt. once its maxed for your level only tuant when you are MA and you lose AGRO. if you are not MA, then you should NOT be taunting.

breaking mez ONLY the MA should break mez, and then only after they have taunted to get some agro built so the mob does not fly across the group to make mince meet out of your CC toon.

had little issue with this in veksar other night as my nec was slower and CC with a pally pulling. pulled an ADD a few times, no biggy, but breaking on mez was getting my little nec pounded on. had to lay into the pally after then 3rd time

caster hotkey think i saw this but ill put it here again. clerics, pure casters, etc.. make a very simple hotkey along these lines. /g ON ME. not much more. the longer your hotkey is asking for help, the harder it is to see by the MA/SA as they have enough battle spam to deal with.

tell your tanks this is your hotkey for when you have a mob on you and need assistance getting it off so you can cast or live.

hotkey make em short ppl. im sick and tired of /g by the power of blah blah blah blah %T blah blah blah......... you get the point. its fine to use one of those for a few pulls or casts, but NOT EVERY FLIPPING TIME. make them short and simple:

/g INC <<< %T >>> 1 per msg
/g ATTACK <<< %T >>> NOW
/g Slow on <<< %T >>>

get the point. there is enough battle spam out there we dont need to much more. the shorter the /g or /rs the easier it is to read and follow. go ahead and make the fancy ones, but dont use them all the time.

Tanks listen to your healers stated above, but ill say it again. TANKS if your healer is LoM, or OOM, and you pull and die, dont ***** about it or complain. that is your fault for NOT listening to your healers.

there are several more things to think about, but those cover most of em.

ZERGING IS ALWAYS BAD do not get in this habbit. if you are in this habbit then get out of it NOW. if your guild uses this as their #1 prefered way for taking down mobs, get a new guild.
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#8 Feb 24 2004 at 4:36 PM Rating: Decent
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Nice Post

I used this for guild
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#9 Feb 24 2004 at 4:37 PM Rating: Decent
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ok what is ZERGING?
#10 Feb 24 2004 at 4:39 PM Rating: Decent
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good point what is zerging ?
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#11 Feb 24 2004 at 4:57 PM Rating: Decent
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Zerging is using a huge number of players to make up for a lack of skill.

About the CC aggro thing. As an SK I can almost always Terror/Darkness/Taunt then hit the mob and it will be okay. That being said, when you see the person taunting or getting ready to hit a mezzed mob... Stand up. Sit aggro is huge, and it makes it easier for the other person to get and keep aggro instead of chasing after something chasing after you.

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#12 Feb 24 2004 at 6:19 PM Rating: Decent
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Good points in posts (though I disagree about having auotsplit on for ML), thought I would add some additional points.

1. Grouping is all about working as a team, learn to communicate with each other - if MT is getting pounded and Healer is calling LOM, ask if the off tanker should take agro to let MT step back (saw a MT go to 5% with clc OOM recently with off tank at full - why take a chance on death in this case). Also think about the group, if the healer or casters are calling for med breaks because of low mana it makes no sense for the tanks to be wandering around sightseeing unless they are full health (sit down and speed up the healing process).

2. Know your role in the group - if you have a clc, pally, and chanter in the group who does it make more sense to be pacifying? All 3 can do it in a pinch, but what helps the group the most? It rarely (if ever) makes sense for the MT or MH to also be ML as it either slows the group down on pulls or LOM likely will result. Also, if your group is doing great DPS and has crowd control, maybe pacifying isnt as good of an idea than just mezing adds. Some groups will find a groove and just click, others will strugle to fit their different styles together.

3. Know what other classes are doing - i.e. it is much more important for rogue to behind the target than the off tank, a mezed target will often agro CC unless person breaking mez establishes it first. The chance goes up IMHO if the mob has been mezed multiple times (can almost always guarantee I will take the first hit if I have mezed an add 3 times waiting for party to get to it).

4. Bears repeating, let puller do his/her job by establishing agro and bringing target back to group rather than everyone crowding up right behind him. A good puller will ask for help when needed (pacify, etc) and should also let you know if there might be adds. Finally, a good puller should always call out the target as this will help with CC by determining who not to mez.
#13 Feb 24 2004 at 7:32 PM Rating: Decent
Either the main tank or the puller should always designate the spot they are going to pull the mobs back to.

Once that is done, everyone else should pay attention to position themselves in the appropriate spot and the appropriate distance away from the spot.

Its a simple thing, but it makes so much differnce to the CCers and casters.

The worst cuplrits in ignoring this tend to be the pet classes,either sending in their pet too soon or not pulling it back after the end of a fight. There are a few melee type that would do well to learn the lesson as well.

It is very frustrating to see the "pull spot" being worked further and further through the doorway, or up the tunnel etc. Leading to the obvious multiple add due to aggroing the next room or group of mobs.

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#14 Feb 24 2004 at 7:50 PM Rating: Good
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The term "zerging" comes from Star Craft - one of the races, the Zerg, are pretty **** stupid. But they have huge numbers.

The way the zergs fight is they just kinda run across the area and kill things as they get to them. Crude but effective, and clears alot of territory, but things can get through.

Its been also used in PVP or RVR games, as higher levels or groups of players would just sweep across a landscape and kill anyone they come across, doing it in such a fashion that few people will be missed.
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#15 Feb 25 2004 at 11:09 AM Rating: Decent
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yup Zerging is just using a large amount of players of as high a level as you are muster to basical run over any target.

example:

taking 72 level 55+ players into Chardok to do royals. ive seen this happen and everything in the path of the raid falls in less then 10-15sec until you get to the queen. if at this point the raid is not smart and using real skills, they will wipe because the queen has 1 hella nasty Ae spell that will take out most players rather fast.

the royals in Chardok can be done with a raid force as small as 2 level 60+ groups, or 3 level 55+ groups if done right.

getting into the habbit of just jumping on the mob ASAP is bad. that is one thing i do not like about LDoN. that is basicaly what happens as the mobs are so easy compaired to normal mobs of the same level. heck perfect example is the 30-40 range of mobs in LDoN normal adventures.

those mobs would last about 1/3 the time of any mob in OT will last that is 25+. so for the weaker mobs you can just 'zerg' them down. heck ive had my bard MA in 50s advents, that aught to tell you something right there.

so basicaly if your guild is using 'zerg' tactics as its mainstay to raiding bigger and bigger zones/mobs, then its time to find a new guild if you want to learn how to raid properly, and want some kind of chance at the higher end gear.

heck even Vindi will take out a full group if you are stupid and try ti zerg him. and Vindi is not all that hard when it comes to boss mobs.
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#16 Feb 25 2004 at 12:12 PM Rating: Decent
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As far as a pull spot goes, pet classes help alot with this. Park the pet in one spot and simply have the puller run past it with the MT waiting nearby. The pet is in the rogue position (rogue can even stand here too) and you have very few groups that tend to migrate. The pet always returns to the same spot (give or take a few feet) after the fight so there should be little confusion.

On incomming, when the mob is coming into view, all should stand up. Everybody. As stated above, sit aggro is pretty powerful. Let the MT whack and taunt a few times to get it off the puller then you can sit down again. I lost count of how many times a healer or caster got schmeared over the landscape just by sitting down.
#17 Feb 25 2004 at 4:58 PM Rating: Good
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Lot's of good points here. I'd like to add two more:

TRUST your group members to do their jobs. If you have an enchanter in the group, and you are secondary tank...don't assume that you have to tank mezz unless the chanter a) is out of mana or b) says he or she cannot mezz the mob. If you are a caster and take aggro, don't start running around in circles...trust the MT to pull the mob off you (it's much harder for a tank, especially a warrior, to pull a mob off a running caster).

ASKif you need people to do things differently. If the tank is burying the mob in the wall and you (or your pet) could backstab if you could get behind the mob, point that out. If the shaman is giving you a heart attack with canni V and not telling you that he's using canni, ask him to let you know. Especially at lower levels, people may not have grouped much with your class and may not be aware of the things THEY can do to help YOU do you job more effectively.
#18 Feb 25 2004 at 5:21 PM Rating: Default
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Watching a new cleric panic when canni starts has got to be the funniest thing I have come across in the game. Then, when they drop a HoT on me and I canni even more they really freak out. Hot keys are good to prevent this, and I do have one, but with a new cleric I like to test them.

"Are you poisoned?" "Why are you wincing?" "OMFG! What happened to your hitpoints!" and my favorite "Stop that! I am going OOM trying to keep you alive!" The group usually gets a good chuckle out of it too. Smiley: grin
#19 Feb 25 2004 at 6:38 PM Rating: Good
HEHE, have to say I am glad to see the advice that tanks need to wait for the healer's mana...didn't I start a hot thread on that once before. ;-)

A little bit about root-parking. I am not such a big fan of this in LDON, unless it is simply to save lives. Couple of reasons...first, it is really hard sometimes to get the tank to pull the other mob away from the parked mob. A root does no good as CC if the mob can still hit people. Don't know why this is the case, either, but that tank seems to always stand right by the rotted mob. And root can just wear off too soon to be a real CC measure.

I have started taking control while the group forms and it seems to work well. I am always polite, but I begin assigning roles. It is mostly obvious as to who will be MH, MT etc. If there are two I will ask them to tell me which one wants to, so it appears somewhat democratic...hehe. At the end I recap the roles and ask everyone if they are ok with the decisions. I have never had anyone act annoyed at me taking charge. Sometimes others will step up and share the leadership with me, which I am happy to share...not a power trip to me, I just want a well functioning group.

#20 Feb 25 2004 at 6:57 PM Rating: Good
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Be willing to adapt to the play styles of your groupmates instead of being a know-it-all prima-donna and insisting that your way is the only way.

An example of something I don't do because I KNOW that 9 out of 10 chanters are going to yell at me for it and it's not worth the hassle of explaining:

Let's say the puller brings back 2+ mobs. MA grabs one of them which I slow. Chanter mezzes the others. I slow the extras also. What I should do to maximize my contribution to the group is drag one or more of the mezzed mobs off to the side, hit it with my 3-minute root spell, my epic DoT, and a couple of my other DoTs, basically starting to kill them while the others in the group kill the one the MA has taken. Other DoT classes in the group (particularly necros) can also stick some DoTs on. This is by far the best way for a DoT class to contribute to the group's DPS (root-rotting adds), since our DoTs are by far our most mana-efficient source of damage (after our pets) if they can run to completion (which they never can if you're sticking to straight MA wakes up one at a time tactics).

In reality, what's going to happen if I do this is I'm going to hear stuff like from at least the enchanter or the MA, if not some other know-it-all idiot in the group:

WTF are you doing breaking mezzes? You're not the MA!!

Quit breaking mezzes all the time newb!

And the chanter is probably going to stubbornly insist on remezzing the mobs over and over and get more and more frustrated as every tick of the DoTs wakes up the mob.

Anyhow, the point is that there's not just a single way to do things and rules like:

"The MA is the only one who breaks mezzes" are ok rules of thumb, but don't assume that they are the holy words from on high and not to be trifled with.
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#21 Feb 25 2004 at 7:12 PM Rating: Default
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I do a form of root parking in LDON, If we have an ench, great, I let him mezz adds first, then I snare and root with my clicky pants which is up to four minutes. The vast majority of the time it's the MT who breaks the root when he engages.
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#22 Feb 25 2004 at 7:53 PM Rating: Decent
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Kazim...root-rotting adds sounds like an excellent idea if you can actually get the add away from the mob the melee are on. Have you tried telling a chanter at the beginning of the group that you will root-rot adds?
I do see one problem with it though...if root breaks, the tank is going to have a HECK of a time peeling the mob off you...in fact, warriors may not be able to do so at all unless they have aggro-proc weapons... so you will have to be prepared to re-root the moment root breaks.
#23 Feb 25 2004 at 8:18 PM Rating: Good
Kazim's tactics are excellent for a normal dungeon, as a Druid I would love to be doing this along with the Shaman and/or Necro.

But in LDoN I think the pace is too fast to make it worthwhile most of the time. Although there is always lots of lovely open space behind the group to pull to and root.

My experience in LDoN's tends to be that you have long periods where everything goes pretty well and you just chew through with standard tactics, untill you strike a few moments where every thing goes wrong at the same time. I don't know what it is, attention span problems?

But, inevitably something happens, puller misses some mobs in a corner and pulls back across them and suddenly there is five in camp, someone gets bored and "accidentally" clicks a bitten victim or hits a trap and suddenly everyone is drunk or Dotted all to ****.

Or, just as the puller arrives with five in tow, the "someone" hits the trap and you have a drunken bard trying to control five angry mobs Smiley: rolleyes

Anyway, I don't think root n' rot would help much in these situations.

(We actually had a five pull last night with no CC, the Bard puller died on arrival - heal landed the instant the purple faded Smiley: mad - The wizzy took one out with a couple of almighty blasts and the warrior, monk and beserker tanked the rest down, took most of my mana but amazingly we survived it.)

Edit... I was too busy spamming my heal buttons to take note at the time, but I suspect the Zerker did something clever to help pull it together.

Edited, Wed Feb 25 20:31:58 2004 by Iluien
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#24 Feb 25 2004 at 9:25 PM Rating: Decent
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Kazim, one thing you can to do cut down on agrivation to both you and the chanter is shoot them a tell letting them know whats going on and after they see its 2 or 3 times work well, a good player will chill and not worry about it.

the chanter can still mez it, you can pull it away, slow it, dot it, and leave it be as long as its not a caster especialy a healer.

i have been known to do this from time to time with my nec, but if i do i always make a hotkey stating that /g %T is DoTed dont remez.

just some food for thought.
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#25 Feb 25 2004 at 11:08 PM Rating: Decent
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As a chanter, I've come to appreciate /assist pacify a lot.
I put the puller's name on my /assist and when he tells me, I cast
pacify on his target. Works well, and I don't have to be standing
next to him; can be in the next room. Just ready to move up if
I get the out of range msg. To let him know the pacify took, I
have another hot button that says %T has been pacified. Seems to be a useful technique.

#26 Feb 26 2004 at 2:40 AM Rating: Decent
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I use the "Kazim Method" in LDoN because our group has no enchanter. It has some problems.

First root is not 3-mins but up to 3 mins. It can and does break with monotonous regularity after a few secs or half a min.

Second our wonderful shaman dots all seem to have a DD element thus increasing the risk of root breaking.

Third as already mentioned the mob is glued to you for the rest of it's life. No way is any melee going to peel a mob that you have slowed, crippled, dotted and repeat rooted off you. FGortunately in this state it isn't doing you any damage either and it is perfectly ok to let them take it roughly from behind.


To the original list of tips I would add

Don't announce attempts to stick a spell as if they succeed. Ie don't put " < %t > is slowed in your slow casting macro because it may be resisted or interrupted. Better to have a button purely for the announcement that you hit when you get the spell to stick. The only spell I can think of that needs an "Attempting to" announcement is Mezz.

Don't ML with autosplit. It is the unfairest possible combination. Autosplit is unable to give change so it favours the looter. This is bearable in a sequential looting situation but with an ML it is grossly unfair and totally unnecessary. The ML is presumably going to split after and may as well loot all cash as well as all items. Lastly autosplit is very unfriendly to monks if there still are any.
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