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Grouping: Basic things to remember...Follow

#1 Feb 24 2004 at 10:27 AM Rating: Excellent
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Grouping: Basic things to remember...
1. Stay in "camp", don't run off after the puller. He can pull just fine, he doesn't need you standing next to him and agroing adds.

2. It's called /assist, we've chosen a Main Tank, the main tank will chose which mob to kill, so /assist and help the Main Tank kill. Leave the Adds, if any alone and let the CC person take care of them.

3. Root parking: If we don't have a chanter for mezzing, then one of us is going to root park adds, if possible. Learn to split the mobs apart, if I say one is rooted, so they both aren't beating on you, so I don't have to waste as much mana, healing 2-3 people, instead of just the Main Tank.

4. Calm/Pacify mobs: Not such a big deal, post 46 and KEI, were mana becomes a lot easier to regen, but pre-46 and if there's no Mana regen readily available, wait for calm, instead of pulling 3-4 mobs. I'd rather spend 50 mana per calming on 3 mobs, than having to wast half my mana bar healing because the puller is to keen.

5. Someone lead the group/ communicate: Especially in a pickup group.
Nothing **** me off more than being in a group and having no leader or communication. Step up and direct the group, don't be rude, but ask people to do things, give them a roll in the group. Assign a Main Tank at the start. Assign healing, crowd control, who's going to assist. It's basic stuff to do, at the start and I find makes thing normally run a lot smoother. If you're polite but direct, most people don't mind being told what to do, especially if the group starts to work well and the exp is flowing.
I don't mean for you to tell another person "How to play their class", that annoys me as much as the next guy.
And learn to follow orders, if you have a group leader, even in a pickup group. We do it on Raids, why can't we do the same in a group, even a pickup group. If you have a good leader, have the common sense to do as he/she asks.
I've had some fantastic pickup groups over the years, simply because the 6 of us had the common sense to get orginised and work as a team.

Any other basic tips for grouping, that we should all try and remember?


Edited, Thu Sep 16 06:39:51 2004 by lagduff
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#2 Feb 24 2004 at 10:33 AM Rating: Default
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Assign a main looter and make sure he has autosplit on ;-)
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#3 Feb 24 2004 at 11:27 AM Rating: Good
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Know your class Specificaly, your spell duration. If you are buffing haste, armor, etc., try to know about how long they take to wear off so you can recast without the tank having to ask "can I have haste?" every 5 minutes. If you don't know, buff yourself at the same time until you learn. Group buffs are great for this because your buff will expire as soon as everyone else's does. When I am playing my druid, I am usually recasting before anyone asks. Makes things smoother.

Use Hotbuttons If you are a caster, use hotbuttons to assist, heal and buff so you can stand, cast#, and tell the group what you are doing with one click. For example [/stand, /g healing %t, /cast 1]. It makes things faster and the other healer (for example) will know not to waste mana on someone that you are already healing. If you are the puller/tank, use hotbuttons so everyone knows what you are pulling, attacking, etc.

Help If you are not melee, make a hotbutton for telling people that you are taking aggro. Mine is /g I am taking aggro, please get this %t off me."

Nukes and Aggro Some classes have some very impressive nukes, but please know when to use them and when to use a lower dps spell. Its counterproductive for a tank to be chasing a mob, whos chasing the caster, who just nuked the mob for 300 points of non-melee damage.

Meditate Some of this is basic, I know, but when playing the lower level alt (Warrior) I have seen cleric MH getting into melee with the mobs. That's not your job if you are MH - heal and med, or pacify, heal and med whatever the case may be.

Rooting if you're going to root adds, make a hotbutton to let people know that you have done so. Sometimes the tanks don't see it and sometimes they see it but can't tell if the roots were green (ensnare) or brown (root). I use the following hotbuttons: [/cast 2, /g snaring a %t] and [/cast 3, /g rooting a %t - back away from it]

Be Patient If the healer is OOM, wait for the freaking pull. I can't believe the players who still violate this rule even at higher levels. So many healers are pleasantly suprised by my warrior's willingness to wait for med. I'm sure that I am more patient simply because I have been on the other end of the tank/healer equation.

Follow the Leader This was said in the last post, but its really important...too many chefs and all that. When I lead the group (for instance on an LDoN) I suggest MT, MH, ML and puller assignments, get longer term buffs, and send everyone off toward the zone before accepting the adventure. This allows plenty of time to get there and med to full before entering. As a side note, doing this politely and effectively with my alt earned me a very nice guild invite from one of the "lower level" players I was with who happened to be an officer in a very cool guild. (we be rading MM tonite...woot!) That, plus the fact that I re-invited her for split at the conclusion of the adventure, even though she never entered the dungeon (forgot to update the expansion on that account). Nice guys finish last my a$$!


Some of this is pretty basic, but since its still a problem for some, it bears repeating. Just my Smiley: twocents

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#4 Feb 24 2004 at 12:10 PM Rating: Good
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I have to disagree with having auto-split on. If you are using a ML, it is much better for them to split at the end. Auto-split does not make change. If you have a 6 person group, and the ML loots 5pp4gp, none will split to the others in the group. Loot distribution will end up very unbalanced.
#5 Feb 24 2004 at 12:59 PM Rating: Decent
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If you spend all your time making sure other players are playing "right", you probably aren't paying enough attention to your own character.

Sometimes things go wrong and you will die. The sooner you get over it and stop throwing a hissy fit and try to assign blame, the sooner you can get back to playing.

If you don't know, ask already. You may feel stupid for asking what that acronym stands for or what the raid leader meant, but you'll feel a **** of alot stupider if you get everyone killed.

There's a big yellow message telling everyone in the group that you broke mez. Stop claiming that it wasn't you.
#6 Feb 24 2004 at 1:07 PM Rating: Decent
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Let the Main Tank do their job. The MT should be allowed to establish aggro before everyone else jumps in and starts beating on the mob. When you have 3 or 4 different people competing for aggro, the healer ends up having to use way too much mana in useless heals.

That is why you have a MT. To take the aggro and hold it so that everyone else can do their jobs. The healer should call for off-tanks if needed as they usually have the best view of the action, and are not directly involved in combat.
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#7 Feb 24 2004 at 4:08 PM Rating: Good
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taunt dont mash the tuant button unless you are training skill in taunt. once its maxed for your level only tuant when you are MA and you lose AGRO. if you are not MA, then you should NOT be taunting.

breaking mez ONLY the MA should break mez, and then only after they have taunted to get some agro built so the mob does not fly across the group to make mince meet out of your CC toon.

had little issue with this in veksar other night as my nec was slower and CC with a pally pulling. pulled an ADD a few times, no biggy, but breaking on mez was getting my little nec pounded on. had to lay into the pally after then 3rd time

caster hotkey think i saw this but ill put it here again. clerics, pure casters, etc.. make a very simple hotkey along these lines. /g ON ME. not much more. the longer your hotkey is asking for help, the harder it is to see by the MA/SA as they have enough battle spam to deal with.

tell your tanks this is your hotkey for when you have a mob on you and need assistance getting it off so you can cast or live.

hotkey make em short ppl. im sick and tired of /g by the power of blah blah blah blah %T blah blah blah......... you get the point. its fine to use one of those for a few pulls or casts, but NOT EVERY FLIPPING TIME. make them short and simple:

/g INC <<< %T >>> 1 per msg
/g ATTACK <<< %T >>> NOW
/g Slow on <<< %T >>>

get the point. there is enough battle spam out there we dont need to much more. the shorter the /g or /rs the easier it is to read and follow. go ahead and make the fancy ones, but dont use them all the time.

Tanks listen to your healers stated above, but ill say it again. TANKS if your healer is LoM, or OOM, and you pull and die, dont **** about it or complain. that is your fault for NOT listening to your healers.

there are several more things to think about, but those cover most of em.

ZERGING IS ALWAYS BAD do not get in this habbit. if you are in this habbit then get out of it NOW. if your guild uses this as their #1 prefered way for taking down mobs, get a new guild.
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#8 Feb 24 2004 at 4:36 PM Rating: Decent
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Nice Post

I used this for guild
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#9 Feb 24 2004 at 4:37 PM Rating: Decent
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ok what is ZERGING?
#10 Feb 24 2004 at 4:39 PM Rating: Decent
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good point what is zerging ?
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#11 Feb 24 2004 at 4:57 PM Rating: Decent
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Zerging is using a huge number of players to make up for a lack of skill.

About the CC aggro thing. As an SK I can almost always Terror/Darkness/Taunt then hit the mob and it will be okay. That being said, when you see the person taunting or getting ready to hit a mezzed mob... Stand up. Sit aggro is huge, and it makes it easier for the other person to get and keep aggro instead of chasing after something chasing after you.

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#12 Feb 24 2004 at 6:19 PM Rating: Decent
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Good points in posts (though I disagree about having auotsplit on for ML), thought I would add some additional points.

1. Grouping is all about working as a team, learn to communicate with each other - if MT is getting pounded and Healer is calling LOM, ask if the off tanker should take agro to let MT step back (saw a MT go to 5% with clc OOM recently with off tank at full - why take a chance on death in this case). Also think about the group, if the healer or casters are calling for med breaks because of low mana it makes no sense for the tanks to be wandering around sightseeing unless they are full health (sit down and speed up the healing process).

2. Know your role in the group - if you have a clc, pally, and chanter in the group who does it make more sense to be pacifying? All 3 can do it in a pinch, but what helps the group the most? It rarely (if ever) makes sense for the MT or MH to also be ML as it either slows the group down on pulls or LOM likely will result. Also, if your group is doing great DPS and has crowd control, maybe pacifying isnt as good of an idea than just mezing adds. Some groups will find a groove and just click, others will strugle to fit their different styles together.

3. Know what other classes are doing - i.e. it is much more important for rogue to behind the target than the off tank, a mezed target will often agro CC unless person breaking mez establishes it first. The chance goes up IMHO if the mob has been mezed multiple times (can almost always guarantee I will take the first hit if I have mezed an add 3 times waiting for party to get to it).

4. Bears repeating, let puller do his/her job by establishing agro and bringing target back to group rather than everyone crowding up right behind him. A good puller will ask for help when needed (pacify, etc) and should also let you know if there might be adds. Finally, a good puller should always call out the target as this will help with CC by determining who not to mez.
#13 Feb 24 2004 at 7:32 PM Rating: Decent
Either the main tank or the puller should always designate the spot they are going to pull the mobs back to.

Once that is done, everyone else should pay attention to position themselves in the appropriate spot and the appropriate distance away from the spot.

Its a simple thing, but it makes so much differnce to the CCers and casters.

The worst cuplrits in ignoring this tend to be the pet classes,either sending in their pet too soon or not pulling it back after the end of a fight. There are a few melee type that would do well to learn the lesson as well.

It is very frustrating to see the "pull spot" being worked further and further through the doorway, or up the tunnel etc. Leading to the obvious multiple add due to aggroing the next room or group of mobs.

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#14 Feb 24 2004 at 7:50 PM Rating: Good
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The term "zerging" comes from Star Craft - one of the races, the Zerg, are pretty **** stupid. But they have huge numbers.

The way the zergs fight is they just kinda run across the area and kill things as they get to them. Crude but effective, and clears alot of territory, but things can get through.

Its been also used in PVP or RVR games, as higher levels or groups of players would just sweep across a landscape and kill anyone they come across, doing it in such a fashion that few people will be missed.
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#15 Feb 25 2004 at 11:09 AM Rating: Decent
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yup Zerging is just using a large amount of players of as high a level as you are muster to basical run over any target.

example:

taking 72 level 55+ players into Chardok to do royals. ive seen this happen and everything in the path of the raid falls in less then 10-15sec until you get to the queen. if at this point the raid is not smart and using real skills, they will wipe because the queen has 1 hella nasty Ae spell that will take out most players rather fast.

the royals in Chardok can be done with a raid force as small as 2 level 60+ groups, or 3 level 55+ groups if done right.

getting into the habbit of just jumping on the mob ASAP is bad. that is one thing i do not like about LDoN. that is basicaly what happens as the mobs are so easy compaired to normal mobs of the same level. heck perfect example is the 30-40 range of mobs in LDoN normal adventures.

those mobs would last about 1/3 the time of any mob in OT will last that is 25+. so for the weaker mobs you can just 'zerg' them down. heck ive had my bard MA in 50s advents, that aught to tell you something right there.

so basicaly if your guild is using 'zerg' tactics as its mainstay to raiding bigger and bigger zones/mobs, then its time to find a new guild if you want to learn how to raid properly, and want some kind of chance at the higher end gear.

heck even Vindi will take out a full group if you are stupid and try ti zerg him. and Vindi is not all that hard when it comes to boss mobs.
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#16 Feb 25 2004 at 12:12 PM Rating: Decent
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As far as a pull spot goes, pet classes help alot with this. Park the pet in one spot and simply have the puller run past it with the MT waiting nearby. The pet is in the rogue position (rogue can even stand here too) and you have very few groups that tend to migrate. The pet always returns to the same spot (give or take a few feet) after the fight so there should be little confusion.

On incomming, when the mob is coming into view, all should stand up. Everybody. As stated above, sit aggro is pretty powerful. Let the MT whack and taunt a few times to get it off the puller then you can sit down again. I lost count of how many times a healer or caster got schmeared over the landscape just by sitting down.
#17 Feb 25 2004 at 4:58 PM Rating: Good
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Lot's of good points here. I'd like to add two more:

TRUST your group members to do their jobs. If you have an enchanter in the group, and you are secondary tank...don't assume that you have to tank mezz unless the chanter a) is out of mana or b) says he or she cannot mezz the mob. If you are a caster and take aggro, don't start running around in circles...trust the MT to pull the mob off you (it's much harder for a tank, especially a warrior, to pull a mob off a running caster).

ASKif you need people to do things differently. If the tank is burying the mob in the wall and you (or your pet) could backstab if you could get behind the mob, point that out. If the shaman is giving you a heart attack with canni V and not telling you that he's using canni, ask him to let you know. Especially at lower levels, people may not have grouped much with your class and may not be aware of the things THEY can do to help YOU do you job more effectively.
#18 Feb 25 2004 at 5:21 PM Rating: Default
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Watching a new cleric panic when canni starts has got to be the funniest thing I have come across in the game. Then, when they drop a HoT on me and I canni even more they really freak out. Hot keys are good to prevent this, and I do have one, but with a new cleric I like to test them.

"Are you poisoned?" "Why are you wincing?" "OMFG! What happened to your hitpoints!" and my favorite "Stop that! I am going OOM trying to keep you alive!" The group usually gets a good chuckle out of it too. Smiley: grin
#19 Feb 25 2004 at 6:38 PM Rating: Good
HEHE, have to say I am glad to see the advice that tanks need to wait for the healer's mana...didn't I start a hot thread on that once before. ;-)

A little bit about root-parking. I am not such a big fan of this in LDON, unless it is simply to save lives. Couple of reasons...first, it is really hard sometimes to get the tank to pull the other mob away from the parked mob. A root does no good as CC if the mob can still hit people. Don't know why this is the case, either, but that tank seems to always stand right by the rotted mob. And root can just wear off too soon to be a real CC measure.

I have started taking control while the group forms and it seems to work well. I am always polite, but I begin assigning roles. It is mostly obvious as to who will be MH, MT etc. If there are two I will ask them to tell me which one wants to, so it appears somewhat democratic...hehe. At the end I recap the roles and ask everyone if they are ok with the decisions. I have never had anyone act annoyed at me taking charge. Sometimes others will step up and share the leadership with me, which I am happy to share...not a power trip to me, I just want a well functioning group.

#20 Feb 25 2004 at 6:57 PM Rating: Good
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Be willing to adapt to the play styles of your groupmates instead of being a know-it-all prima-donna and insisting that your way is the only way.

An example of something I don't do because I KNOW that 9 out of 10 chanters are going to yell at me for it and it's not worth the hassle of explaining:

Let's say the puller brings back 2+ mobs. MA grabs one of them which I slow. Chanter mezzes the others. I slow the extras also. What I should do to maximize my contribution to the group is drag one or more of the mezzed mobs off to the side, hit it with my 3-minute root spell, my epic DoT, and a couple of my other DoTs, basically starting to kill them while the others in the group kill the one the MA has taken. Other DoT classes in the group (particularly necros) can also stick some DoTs on. This is by far the best way for a DoT class to contribute to the group's DPS (root-rotting adds), since our DoTs are by far our most mana-efficient source of damage (after our pets) if they can run to completion (which they never can if you're sticking to straight MA wakes up one at a time tactics).

In reality, what's going to happen if I do this is I'm going to hear stuff like from at least the enchanter or the MA, if not some other know-it-all idiot in the group:

WTF are you doing breaking mezzes? You're not the MA!!

Quit breaking mezzes all the time newb!

And the chanter is probably going to stubbornly insist on remezzing the mobs over and over and get more and more frustrated as every tick of the DoTs wakes up the mob.

Anyhow, the point is that there's not just a single way to do things and rules like:

"The MA is the only one who breaks mezzes" are ok rules of thumb, but don't assume that they are the holy words from on high and not to be trifled with.
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#21 Feb 25 2004 at 7:12 PM Rating: Default
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I do a form of root parking in LDON, If we have an ench, great, I let him mezz adds first, then I snare and root with my clicky pants which is up to four minutes. The vast majority of the time it's the MT who breaks the root when he engages.
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#22 Feb 25 2004 at 7:53 PM Rating: Decent
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Kazim...root-rotting adds sounds like an excellent idea if you can actually get the add away from the mob the melee are on. Have you tried telling a chanter at the beginning of the group that you will root-rot adds?
I do see one problem with it though...if root breaks, the tank is going to have a HECK of a time peeling the mob off you...in fact, warriors may not be able to do so at all unless they have aggro-proc weapons... so you will have to be prepared to re-root the moment root breaks.
#23 Feb 25 2004 at 8:18 PM Rating: Good
Kazim's tactics are excellent for a normal dungeon, as a Druid I would love to be doing this along with the Shaman and/or Necro.

But in LDoN I think the pace is too fast to make it worthwhile most of the time. Although there is always lots of lovely open space behind the group to pull to and root.

My experience in LDoN's tends to be that you have long periods where everything goes pretty well and you just chew through with standard tactics, untill you strike a few moments where every thing goes wrong at the same time. I don't know what it is, attention span problems?

But, inevitably something happens, puller misses some mobs in a corner and pulls back across them and suddenly there is five in camp, someone gets bored and "accidentally" clicks a bitten victim or hits a trap and suddenly everyone is drunk or Dotted all to ****.

Or, just as the puller arrives with five in tow, the "someone" hits the trap and you have a drunken bard trying to control five angry mobs Smiley: rolleyes

Anyway, I don't think root n' rot would help much in these situations.

(We actually had a five pull last night with no CC, the Bard puller died on arrival - heal landed the instant the purple faded Smiley: mad - The wizzy took one out with a couple of almighty blasts and the warrior, monk and beserker tanked the rest down, took most of my mana but amazingly we survived it.)

Edit... I was too busy spamming my heal buttons to take note at the time, but I suspect the Zerker did something clever to help pull it together.

Edited, Wed Feb 25 20:31:58 2004 by Iluien
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#24 Feb 25 2004 at 9:25 PM Rating: Decent
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Kazim, one thing you can to do cut down on agrivation to both you and the chanter is shoot them a tell letting them know whats going on and after they see its 2 or 3 times work well, a good player will chill and not worry about it.

the chanter can still mez it, you can pull it away, slow it, dot it, and leave it be as long as its not a caster especialy a healer.

i have been known to do this from time to time with my nec, but if i do i always make a hotkey stating that /g %T is DoTed dont remez.

just some food for thought.
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#25 Feb 25 2004 at 11:08 PM Rating: Decent
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As a chanter, I've come to appreciate /assist pacify a lot.
I put the puller's name on my /assist and when he tells me, I cast
pacify on his target. Works well, and I don't have to be standing
next to him; can be in the next room. Just ready to move up if
I get the out of range msg. To let him know the pacify took, I
have another hot button that says %T has been pacified. Seems to be a useful technique.

#26 Feb 26 2004 at 2:40 AM Rating: Decent
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I use the "Kazim Method" in LDoN because our group has no enchanter. It has some problems.

First root is not 3-mins but up to 3 mins. It can and does break with monotonous regularity after a few secs or half a min.

Second our wonderful shaman dots all seem to have a DD element thus increasing the risk of root breaking.

Third as already mentioned the mob is glued to you for the rest of it's life. No way is any melee going to peel a mob that you have slowed, crippled, dotted and repeat rooted off you. FGortunately in this state it isn't doing you any damage either and it is perfectly ok to let them take it roughly from behind.


To the original list of tips I would add

Don't announce attempts to stick a spell as if they succeed. Ie don't put " < %t > is slowed in your slow casting macro because it may be resisted or interrupted. Better to have a button purely for the announcement that you hit when you get the spell to stick. The only spell I can think of that needs an "Attempting to" announcement is Mezz.

Don't ML with autosplit. It is the unfairest possible combination. Autosplit is unable to give change so it favours the looter. This is bearable in a sequential looting situation but with an ML it is grossly unfair and totally unnecessary. The ML is presumably going to split after and may as well loot all cash as well as all items. Lastly autosplit is very unfriendly to monks if there still are any.
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#27 Feb 26 2004 at 3:25 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Third as already mentioned the mob is glued to you for the rest of it's life.


with the dotting and snaring, that might well be the case. never played a Shammy, can't comment.

but I read (and always had the impression, that it is the case ingame) that when you root a mob, it aggros on the player closest to him. of course, I can check ingame, if thats the case, but probably somebody is able to shed some "definite" light, as I won't be be playing before friday night. :)

Edited, Thu Feb 26 03:25:30 2004 by Kajolus
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#28 Feb 26 2004 at 6:04 AM Rating: Excellent
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A rooted mob will always attack the closest character when it's rooted. Once root breaks, it'll go after whomever has the most agro on it (which would be the shaman in this case).

A knight can certainly take agro off a mob that's been slowed, crippled, dotted, and rooted a few times. It's a bit harder then normal, but it's quite possible (first taunt will put us up top, then it's just a matter of keeping ahead of the dot, which isn't really that hard).

I'm going to add a rule. Yes, I'm aware that this will appear to totally counter Kazim's statement, bit it really doesn't:

Do not ever attack any target other then the one the MA says Let me clarify. The chanter may suggest targets to hit. The cleric may ask for a particular kill order. The druid/shaman may decide to root some mob off in a corner and dot it. If you are a melee or nuking class (or just filling that role at the moment), you do not make any decisions about what to attack. You attack the mob the MA calls for with his assist message. You do not ever attack something else.


I had a group the other day. We had two pulled. One was mezzable, the other was not. I was MA, and targeted the unmezzable one and peeled it off the puller. Since there were two targets, I hit my "Assist me with %t" hotkey, just in case someone might have been confused. For some reason, the cleric did get confused about which target was which, and called out for folks to attack the other target. For some even stupider reason, one of the melees attacked the now mezzed add, broke mez, and the chanter died shortly thereafter leading to a wipe (this was PoP, not LDoN, so a chanter dies in about 3 seconds when he gets agro).

I don't care who says what. You do not ever attack anything unless the MA says to attack it. I don't care if the chanter says: "NO! You need to attack this one first!!!". Or someone says to attack the healer mob first. It does not matter. Your job is to assist the MT/MA. Nothing else. If there is a need to switch targets, the MA will do it and will call the new target. It is not your job to make that decision, it's his.

When you have any form of CC, you defeat it by attacking more then one mob at a time. If the MA is attacking mobA, then mobA cannot be mezzed or CCed. When the MA gives his assist call, he's telling you which mob he's attacking. Attacking any other mob will at a bare minimum assure that you've got two mobs beating on people in the group. The whole point of CC is to avoid that.

Even if the MA is attacking the wrong mob, you assist him and keep attacking the same mob he's attacking until *he* says otherwise. He's going to give another assist call when he switches targets, so that's your sign to re-assist and retarget. The point is that the MA can gain agro on the new target before calling for the assist change, thus ensuring that no one on the CC team gets whacked during the switch. If you do it any other way, you will likely cause disaster.


It's just not that hard. You make a hotkey that says "/assist <MA>". Everytime the MA calls for assist, you hit the button and move over to the mob he's attacking. If you follow that one rule, you will never break a mez.


Now. If you arrange for an oftank ahead of time, that's a different story. But then you have *one* person who's job is to offtank. If you aren't him, you don't do it. Certainly, you can use Kazim's idea of root rotting targets instead of mezzing. But that's something you establish with the CCer before hand (or declare to the group if you are the CCer).

An experienced player who knows his class well can also break/bend the rules a bit. However, you **** well* better know what you're doing, and expect to get huge flak if you try something and **** up. If you don't know 100% what you're doing, don't try anything fancy. Tactic's like Kazim's work if the people doing them know when to use them best. But for every person who can pull that off consistently, there's 50 players who will just cause a disaster by trying. I regularly use my stuns to assist the CC team during muti-pulls (when I'm not MA or MT obviously). The non-damaging stuns (which pally's get a number of), do not break mez, so they are ideal for keeping the mob still and not beating on the CCer while they are rooting or mezzing. However, I've done it a zillion times on raids, and I'm very good at realizing the CCer is in trouble, turning off autoattack, targeting the offending mob, stunning it until the CCer gets control again, then then retargeting off the MT, and turning on autoattack. I would not recommend that as a tactic for a novice player to use in a group though. Odds are they'd **** it up badly.

In a group, you must learn what each persons role is and react to it. The chanters role is to mez mobs (ok, one of his roles is). But he does not call out the target to attack. The MA does. I don't care what you think you know. You only need to know one thing as a melee/nuke class: Assist the MA when he says assist, and don't attack anything else. Odds are high that doing anything else will be counterproductive as best and fatal at worst.
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#29 Feb 26 2004 at 7:13 AM Rating: Decent
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Kajolus:
I did mean when the root breaks it will be glued to you. Until then it will indeed aggro on the druid who sits next to the rooted mob Smiley: smile

Gbaji:
I find that while the mob can sometimes be taunted off I can't sit down for the rest of the fight. It seems like sit aggro outweighs quite a lot.

I would agree with the comment about assisting the MA.

I have had LDoN where we rapidly decided the MA was completely incompetent and ignored him :) One in particular that came to mind was the 50's warrior who had to keep taking "Stamina breaks" because his bar went down. The ranger could keep and hold aggro so we switched to him.

Also it is quite in order to say "Mob_01 is a healer" in case the MA hasn't noticed. It is very annoying for the dps and healing to watch the mob hp go up again. So pointing out things that might promote a target switch is fine but as Gbaji says don't switch until the MA does.
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#30 Feb 26 2004 at 5:50 PM Rating: Decent
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The MA and CC have worked out in what order they're killing mobs so they're not contradicting each other, correct, Gbaji? Sorry, had to rib you there a bit for being so militant.

Regarding designating a "pull spot"
Quote:
The worst cuplrits in ignoring this tend to be the pet classes,either sending in their pet too soon or not pulling it back after the end of a fight. There are a few melee type that would do well to learn the lesson as well.
Once again, trust people to know what they're doing. It is not necessary to pull a pet back to the caster's side after a fight. Pet classes often park their pet in such a way that the pulls get dragged over them. There are a number of reasons for this. Ask your local magician to list them for you sometime. Unless there's something discussed ahead of time the puller should ignore where pets are parked and bring the mob to the pull spot.

I'm getting frustrated by the posts that seem to be insinuating the casters are making life overly difficult for the tanks. The things that were brought up are not class issues, but rather issues with individual players. We're all learning to be better players.

Here's some finger pointing I could do:

In most of the groups I'm in, the puller or MA does NOT tell us where the pull spot is. The group just has to see where the MA is engaging the mobs.

No one class is any more guilty than another at engaging mobs too early. I've seen every class ignore the MAs directive to wait for the assist call. I've also been in many groups where the MA never does an assist call. Maybe they're too busy with the mob, or they trust us to know when to engage. Personally I prefer a clear assist call.

But finger pointing isn't productive, is it?

Most of the advice here is very good. I just have a couple tidbits to add.

1. Show up prepared. Have more food, drink and ammo than you're going to need. If it's not possible to stock up ahead of time, ask your magician to get you set up before the fighting begins.

2. If you pull aggro by accident, stop attacking or casting until the MA clearly has regained it. If a mob starts coming at me, I run to the MA's side so he doesn't have to chase it down.

3. Talk to your group from time to time. If you haven't yet, become a competent typist. You should be able to communicate at a normal pace. Do those "hands free typing" devices work in EQ? I have trouble trusting strangers in groups who don't talk. I just don't know if they're paying attention, speak english or if they're 7 years old.

4. If you're a pet class, make sure your /pet attack command is not tied to your /assist hotkey. If it is, you're probably one of the pet owners who's sending their pet into fights prematurely.

5. Priest classes, please check with your casters before casting temp on them (or their pets). Some need the extra HP, others don't.

6. Don't show off. Some people brag about how often they can pull aggro off the MA. If you're not the puller, don't bring us extra mobs because you've decided we can handle it. These actions don't make you uber, they make you a bad group mate.

7. Respect the "low on mana" call. When your nukers are low on mana, your healer's mana pool will be taxed harder. A group isn't just about the tank and the healer.

Last, but certainly not least,

8. Be enjoyable to group with, even when things are going badly.
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#31 Feb 26 2004 at 6:59 PM Rating: Decent
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one thing id love to add in here, not really basic, but advance skill i should state.

Chain Pullling

very important. once you get into a groove with your group, or if you already know the group mates well enough, the puller(s), yes more then 1 at times, should step up the pace and KEEP it up until either the slower or healer is LoM, then slow it down to singles until givin the go ahead to return to chain pulling.

this does a few things.

1. it increases the amount of kills, thus increased XP for everyone.

2. much more exciting and fun.

3. much less downtime when handled properly.

i dont know about the rest of you, but i hate just sitting around twiddeling my thumbs waiting for something to come by so we can kill it.

if the group im in is that slow, or the puller really has no clue how to chain pull ill show them. all of my higher toons can pull, some better then others due to class, but all can pull for groups even my nec can pull for groups and often times will until the tanks learn the game of chain pulling.

its amazing how many ppl dont know how to chain pull.

here we go:

1. if you have 1 puller it works like this.

A Puller go get something
B/g inc %T
Cstart to kill it in pull spot(camp)
Donce mob is at 20% life, run off and start looking for Enext mob to kill.
Fbring in next mob
G/g inc %T

if last mob is not dead, just help finish it off, then return to the mob you just pulled to kill

Hrinse and repeat.

2. if you have 2 pullers it works like this.

A puller A go get something
B puller b wait until mob is at 30%
C puller b at 30% will peal off and look for next mob.
D 2 mobs in camp for very little time. puller b will assist to kill puller A's mob.
E puller A when puller b's mob is at 30% will peal off and find next mob.

etc...

this works well.

3. chain pulling with very good competent chanter, or 2 very good chanters.

A puller brings in 2 - 4 mobs at one pull. 2 or 3 works best IMHO
B puller or MA if you have a different puller vs MA picks 1st mob to die, rest are mezed by CC
C group kills 1 mob at a time, CC keeps rest locked down in any way they seem fit.
D CC indicates to MA what mob they want to die next.
E MA breaks mez as discribed above very well on this thread.
F rinse and repeat

hope that helps a bit too.

i have left groups to solo if they A. refuse to chain pull, B. will not listen to learn how to chain pull, C. have more downtime then killing time because they dont know what they are doing.

my nec, and bard both solo extreemly well. i enjoy the grouping aspect of EQ so i will group when i can, but i will leave an unorganised group just as fast as ill join one given the opportunity.

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#32 Feb 26 2004 at 7:00 PM Rating: Good
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Someone mentioned that the MA always picks the mob to attack. This is correct, but I do want to clarify it a little bit.

There MUST be communication between the MA and the CC. I'm almost always MT in any group I'm in, and I really, truly, LOVE enchanters who tell me which mob to hit next when there are multiple mezzed mobs in camp. It saves me having to worry about which mezz is about to wear off, or which mobs tend to resist mezz. It saves the enchanter mana, by making sure they don't remezz a mob right before I start smacking on it, and then remezz the mob next to it whose mezz was about to wear off anyway.

The MT may not know which mobs are mezzable and which aren't...so if at all possible, the cc should tell the MT ahead of time which mobs aren't mezzable. For example...if a necro is being used for crowd control in a Mistmoore Catacombs LDoN...the necro may want to remind the MT that shadewatchers (for example) are not undead and therefore cannot be mezzed.

And yes, by all means...if you have an oblivious MT who hasn't noticed that mobA (who is root-parked because there's no other cc) is healing mobB (which the MT is mindlessly beating on)...point that out and ask him to switch...but as someone else pointed out, don't start hitting or nuking that mob yourself until the MT does.
#33 Feb 26 2004 at 7:01 PM Rating: Decent
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Oops sory, double post due to slow computer connection. >.<

Edited, Sat Feb 28 00:01:17 2004 by Harthina
#34 Feb 26 2004 at 9:26 PM Rating: Decent
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You guys seem to be mixing up the term MA and MT. They are two different things, it's just normally one person does both.
MA= Main Assist; He decides which `MOBs to attack and assists the Main Tank (Unless the MA is the MT.)
MT= Main Tank; He takes the `aggro from the `MOB and holds it as long as he is able to.
an MT can be both an MT and an MA; however, an MA cannot be both an MA and an MT.
Like I said, most people just combine the task so you see people referring to them as if they were the same thing (but they are not.)
Also, not all MTs are the group's `puller, in some cases, paladins, clerics, or bards are more effective at pulling than the `tank is.
Not only will the ML's auto-split make the distribution of wealth uneven, but it will also weigh down the poor, weak `caster classes who have feeble strength.
The best way to learn what to do in group situations is to go out and practice it yourself. Be social, don't be afraid to make mistakes in the group. If you happen to get yelled at for messing up, you can be sure you'll do your best to avoid that mistake again and you'll get progressively better at dealing with group confrontations.

(PS. Making `macros that are considerably lengthy don't actually make it harder to follow; however, spamming the HB multiple times can. If you are annoyed by something this minute:
1. Don't group with them
2. Realize they are doing it to help, not to harm
3. Seek out an anger management therapist
4. Take a Zen class
#35 Feb 26 2004 at 9:48 PM Rating: Good
Erh, for centuries the terms MA and MT have been used interchangeably. MA meaning the main tank that everyone should be assisting.

I have never heard of any one being designated to call the targets other than the puller and the main tank. (Except on raids and then he is called the raid leader, lol.)

Having yet a third person involved in the process sounds like it could get very confusing.

Of course Enchanters think they should call the target, but that doesn't work best in practice either. The best person to call the target is the puller, and he/she needs only to call it to the MT, everyone else follows the main tank's lead.
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#36 Feb 26 2004 at 11:49 PM Rating: Decent
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Harthina wrote:
The MT may not know which mobs are mezzable and which aren't...so if at all possible, the cc should tell the MT ahead of time which mobs aren't mezzable. For example...if a necro is being used for crowd control in a Mistmoore Catacombs LDoN...the necro may want to remind the MT that shadewatchers (for example) are not undead and therefore cannot be mezzed.


you forget Necros cant ONLY mez undead, if it can be mezed Necros can mez it for 18sec. just because it is not undead does not mean a necro CAN NOT mez it. if a nec is not aware of this, kick them out of the group as they do not know their class well enough to be your CC in MM camps.

heck ive been CC in every camp for LDoN there is. not saying im near as good as a bard or chanter, but my nec can keep up with them rather well. that is unless someone does not taunt the mob i mez before they break it and then i got problems if not undead and im slowing.
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#37 Feb 27 2004 at 1:53 AM Rating: Decent
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As long as people know ahead of time there will be multiple pullers, that's fine. In my experience it's usually been a case where someone just takes it upon themselves to start grabbing extra mobs without telling anyone.

Just wanted to clarify that point.
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#38 Feb 27 2004 at 2:33 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
you forget Necros cant ONLY mez undead,


I think whoever posted that was confused with slowing. As far as I am aware necros can only SLOW undead.


And as for the lecture about the "real" meaning of MA and MT (not that i've heard "MT" used outside Paludal). You have an entire thread of people for whom the correct term is MA and you are right and they are wrong?

Since the prime concern is to ensure that everyone is on the same mob to maximise damage dealt and enable mezzing it is only the main tank that people should be assisting - so they are designated MA. I have never ever been in a situation where everyone including the main tank assisted some other person for target. As Iluien said, on raids the RL may well call targets but you still /assist the main tank. That is why they are called MA.
Please post a scenario where it makes sense to have another person calling melee attack targets and being assisted onto them. We can call it Emmenthal.

And of course the main tank may assist the puller to acquire their target but once they have it then they are the person to assist. They may also choose to change to a different target which is why the rest of the group assists them and not the puller.
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#39 Feb 28 2004 at 12:09 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
you forget Necros cant ONLY mez undead, if it can be mezed Necros can mez it for 18sec.


My mistake. My necro is still a baby and not doing any kind of crowd control yet, and the few times I've had to rely on necros for crowd control they have told me that if it wasn't undead they couldn't mezz it. Could this be a level thing? Most of my experience with necros as CC have been in LDoN with groups of mostly 65 characters. Or perhaps they simply meant that they couldn't mez long enough or reliably enough to cc other mobs?
#40 Feb 28 2004 at 12:42 AM Rating: Decent
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yes Necs can ONLY Slow UNdead, but only a sham can slow better then a nec vs undead.

as for CC this is the secrit most necs just dont learn about and thus i say they really dont know diddly about their class and should get da boot:

Screaming Terror

awsome spell and will work on any level mob as long as it can be mezed and is within the casters spell range.

in other words my 60th nec can use this on any mezzable mob up to level 68 if there are any that are still mezzable at that high.

its only 18sec, but has a % to drop the nec 100% from hate list too, so that is extra nice bonus.

level 24 spell so unless the nec is at least 29th or so they really can only CC via solo for a short bit, but that is not always an option for CC.
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#41 Feb 28 2004 at 5:04 AM Rating: Good
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Yanari wrote:
The MA and CC have worked out in what order they're killing mobs so they're not contradicting each other, correct, Gbaji? Sorry, had to rib you there a bit for being so militant.


Hehe. Yeah. They certainly should work out which order mobs are attacked. And of course, the CC should be comunicating as much as possible (order that mez will wear off alone improves efficiency).

My point is to make absolutely clear that you do not "attack" any mob unless the MA has called for it. The CC may tell the MA what to attack, but you don't listen to him (He's not the MA, right?). You wait for the MA to call the target. Always. No matter what.

I don't care if you are in the top guild on your server, and your super uber guildleader who's been playing the game since beta says "Everyone on MobX now!" over his command channel, you do not actually start attacking anything else until your MA calls it. That's not to say that you shouldn't turn off autoattack and get ready for a target switch in that situation (you should in fact). As long as you have a live MA (SA, TA, whatever), you don't attack *anything* until it's called by that designated person.

People panic in difficult situations. People yell things in channels. They may be good ideas. They may even be the right ideas. But all you will ever accomplish by attacking a mob that isn't called by your MA is to guarantee that the group/raid is dividing its dps among more then one target. You designate things like MA specifically to ensure that there is order. The title exists so that you know who to listen to when 5 people are all saying different things. You don't listen to the 4 (or 5) that are not the MA. You listen to the MA. It's his job to listen to those other people and decide what to do. Not yours. He's the one who will see the RL/CC/whomever call for a switch and implement it.


As to the distinction between MA and MT? Um... There really isn't one. While you *can* have an MA that isn't the MT, there is no tactical reason to do so. The MT presumably knows best when the MT has agro, and therefore knows best when to call assist.

The only reason to have an MA who isn't the MT is if the MT is unable for some reason to do the job. The only tank in your group might be a total moron (or just really inexperienced). Sometimes, you've just got to work around that. But, everything else being equal, there is no reason to ever have the MA be anyone other then the MT.

There may be some extremely esoteric situation (which I can't think of at all) where having a separate MA and MT might be required. But, for the most part, if anyone other then the MT insists on calling assists, either there's something wrong with the MT, or there's something wrong with the person who's insisting on being MA instead of the MT. There are just so may components involved with being the MA that rely on info the MT will know, but no one else will, that it makes about zero sense for them to be a separate person.
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#42 Feb 29 2004 at 1:17 AM Rating: Decent
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as for the MA/MT thing.

this goes way back. MT was first used way back in classic EQ before Raids become combined offorts.

since LoY (IIRC) or was it PoP what ever expansion got the alt+r or raid window allowing for ALL members of the raid within xp range to get some kind of xp and to share in the loot and have a common base channle to communicate in MA has basicaly replaced MT as the standard term.

MT is still used by older players or players from other games that come new into EQ. it is also used often by players with almost zero raid experiance.

IMHO that is were some of the confusion comes from with the interchangeable use of MA/MT now.

in raids you really only have an MA/SA/TA/etc.. you do not have MT any longer.

in groups you can have both. there are often times in groups my nec will be MA, but we will have a MT. same goes for my bard, but never is my nec MT *laugh* and extreemly rare is my bard MT, and doubt could be a real MT now as my gear needs major upgrades for 56th bard.

hope that helps a little bit with some of the confusion and discusion i see reguarding the MA/MT issue.
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#43 Feb 29 2004 at 5:10 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
in groups you can have both. there are often times in groups my nec will be MA, but we will have a MT. same goes for my bard, but never is my nec MT *laugh* and extreemly rare is my bard MT


So the other melee have their key set to /assist necro?

Or are you just meaning the necro calls the shots and they assist the "MT"

If the former then I'd hate to be there.
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#44 Feb 29 2004 at 6:49 PM Rating: Decent
IF YOU EXPECT YOUR CLERIC TO BUFF YOU WITH SYMBOL OR TEMPERANCE, GIVE HIM/HER A PERIDOT FIRST!!

Yes I know I am yelling, I am beginning to become very annoyed with this issue. Smiley: mad
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#45 Feb 29 2004 at 8:28 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
IF YOU EXPECT YOUR CLERIC TO BUFF YOU WITH SYMBOL OR TEMPERANCE, GIVE HIM/HER A PERIDOT FIRST!!


I guess I am lucky to have my 56 Beastlord, who pays for all my Alt's expenses. One session of KEI will net 1000-1500pp. By no means a huge amount of money, but easily enough to pay for a few stacks of dots and such, when needed.
I don't expect, nor ask, people too remburse me for dots or any other regent that my Cleric or Enchanter may use, during a group. I have a policy of not excepting money for any buffs I cast, on any characters. It's just mana and as long as you're polite, you'll get buffs from me. 220pp a stack is just not a big issue to me. It takes a while to go threw 3-4 stacks of dots.

I too am becoming very annoyed with this issue... sick of the whining from Clerics.

If you're in PoK and want to buy a buff, by all means, pay the Cleric the 11pp for the Temp or better. But I'll be damned if I'm going to join a group and have the Cleric demand/hold me to ransom that I pay for the buff or I don't get it.

"Oh but it costs me 11pp to cast that buff!"... So!? Don't cast it on me then, I'm sure I'll live.
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#46 Feb 29 2004 at 8:31 PM Rating: Decent
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sometime the MT will make a hot key for me, but normaly its a guildy whom i have grouped with often times and he and i just click.

if its LDoN situation or pickup groups then how ever the MT gets it done is up to them.

about the only time ill take over the MA situation is when i know the area best or the MA is LD.

example:

new players hitting veksar entrance camp(champion or as deep as ferel lord) are often not aware of the spawn rate, placement, skills used to take out those undead. EVERY one of them summons so root parking is worthless and will cause more problems then it can fix. nec. undead slow is unbeatable by any class other then sham, not to mention necs get loads of powerful undead spells.

in Veksar oftent times ill take over completly the job of MA from pulling, to slowing, to calling the shots, to CC work until the group learns the ropes. then i tend to turn it back over to the MT if they are competent.



so yes you can and often times should have both MA/MT in groups for new hunting grounds if you have someone who can pull, direct traffic so to speak, and knows the area you are hunting better then the rest of the group.

i have taken over in LDoN camps with my bard as the MA/MT (hate the MT role i eat up way to much mana from the healers) when the MA goes LD, or if there is no pally in group and then my bard will stay MA then entire adventure with a real MT doing the hard work.

in that situation the MA is just the puller who can more then not bring singles back to the group in LDoN, and can keep the group up on what they can and can not mez. bards mez in the mid 50s SUCKS to say the least. currently any mob that is 1 level below or higher then me i can not mez, thus causing for some other means of CC work to be done. more then not root parking in LDoN. at that point the bard will still tell the MT what mob to kill first, second, etc.

nothing major, just good communication is what its all about.

MA = main assist and in RAIDS should be also the MT.

MT = main tank and in groups is not always the MA, but more then not is.
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#47 Feb 29 2004 at 8:38 PM Rating: Decent
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Iluien the Silent wrote:
IF YOU EXPECT YOUR CLERIC TO BUFF YOU WITH SYMBOL OR TEMPERANCE, GIVE HIM/HER A PERIDOT FIRST!!

Yes I know I am yelling, I am beginning to become very annoyed with this issue. Smiley: mad


hmm looks like ill keep you in mind not to group with. no buff class should ever charge their group for buffs. its part of your class deal with it, or find an other class.

on raids then the raid cordinator should reemburse all DoTs, pearls, etc for buffs, but that comes out of the raid loot (coinage).

i used to offer to give the cleric stacks of bloodstones or catseys agate, or even dots, but then as i got more experiance in the game i relalized that without my added power to the group the cleric is worthless. and without the added HP/AC from the clerics buff i might cause more DOWNTIME, thus less xp, less loot for everyone in the group. not to mention MORE mana cost from a non-epic wielding cleric from that rez, thus even more downtime as now my toon and often times others in the group have to recover from rez effects before we have our power back.

clerics like you are clerics who will not get invites to bigger groups/raids/guilds.

if im in pok PAING for buffs, that is different, but if you are in my group, then do your job and dont **** about it. your job is to give max HP/AC to classes that need it while keeping everyone alive. the rest of the groups job is to kill things knowing they have the max amount of AC/HP available to them from their buffers in group, and that the cleric will keep them alive.
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#48 Feb 29 2004 at 8:50 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
The only spell I can think of that needs an "Attempting to" announcement is Mezz.


As a healer I'd add slow messages to that. If the slower is having to make multiple attempts, I need to know that. When the mob is slowed I'd like to know that as well to adjust my heals on the tank.
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#49 Feb 29 2004 at 9:25 PM Rating: Good
That is a clueless load of crap Singdall.

Each perdot costs <> 11 PP. Every Temperance or Symbol costs one peridot.

Everytime you insist on the cleric buffing you he is giving you 11 PP.

The cleric buffs his five group members and it costs him/her 55 PP. On the completion of a successful LDoN he/she gets what, 35 - 40 PP?

I have been in countless Planes groups where I have ended up looting nothing at all.

Do you expect a cleric to have to go farm spiderling silks to pay for the dots so that he/she can buff your fat ****? What have you ever done for a cleric?

It is utter crap to say that it is the cleric's responsibility to buff group members and swallow down the personal cost when the cleric is rarely ever compensated by any one.

I think you know stuff all about the game Singdal and am certainly pleased that I will never have to group with you.



Edited, Sun Feb 29 21:27:47 2004 by Iluien
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#50 Mar 01 2004 at 3:51 AM Rating: Decent
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Though I never demand payment for buffing group, I do request all dot drops. Although my other toons buy high end buffs so cleric needn't bother buffing them, I do tell groups from the start that a portion of all splits need to be witheld to pay our cleric for regents...to be honest I've only had one person **** about the unfairness of having to share regent cost when he came with purchased buffs...I offered for him to find another group as I also came with prepurchased buffs but had no problem sharing to cover costs...in the end anyone that would argue with losing aprox 40p split 6 ways looks like a complete ****...

before you flame about 40p being alot in lower levels please note that we are talking about dots...obviously jasper or bloodstones would be less but still unless the cleric insists he/she doesnt need it...consider it common courtesy...

yes it is their job to buff group...yes it gets expensive...yes they could have made a warriar...and yes you could be sitting in BB ooc that your group needs a healer for 2 hours because the only available person with a cleric your level is too busy farming on her Beastlord atm to cover her dot costs...which is often my case...I get begged to log off BL and log in cleric... sorry I need to farm for a few

<edited because me spell gud>


Edited, Mon Mar 1 13:32:34 2004 by plick
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#51 Mar 01 2004 at 7:21 AM Rating: Good
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It's generally considered polite to reimburse the cleric (or anyone else) for components spent for the group.

I don't think you guys are arguing different points. Singall, you responded that if a cleric wants to be reimbursed for dots, that he could choose not to cast them. But Illuien said that if people "expect" to get a buff that costs a component, that they should pay for the component.

Those are not mutually exclusive positions. You're coming from the perspective that the cleric does't have to cast on you. So is Illuien. He's just saying that if people want those buffs, maybe they should think about paying for them. The point is that often (especially in LDoN), component buffs are not required for success, but many characters ask for them anyway. I've seen wizards ask for HoV on LDoN adventures and make a stink if the cleric suggests that he could get by without it.

Fact is that if you've got a full group of people, all 6 contribute their time. All 6 take the same risks. All 6 presumably bring something of value to the group that's necessary for success (or at least helps it along). All 6 get the same reward. However, the cleric often spends 55+ plat before the adventure even starts.

How would you like to go on an advanture, but at the end, the ML decides that you get 55 less plat from the split as everyone else? That's effectively what happens with clerics when they are expected to cast temp/virtue at their own expense.

Now the flip side is that most clerics can sell those spells in PoK and make some money, but lots of other classes can sell spells as well, and those spells don't cost a component. Wizards and druids can sell ports (not as profitable as it once was, but still there). Shamans can sell focus and sow (druids and rangers got sow too). Chanters can sell KEI. BLs can even sell "kitty crack".

The point I think is one of direction. If the cleric just automatically casts a virtue on me, I don't generally worry about reimbursing him. It was his choice to cast it. I didn't insist on it. If I'm ML, I'll ask if he wants reimbursment from the cut (I'm usually pulling and/or tanking, so I'm rarely ML), but that's it. I'm perfectly willing to go without virtue if it's not needed. If it is needed, then I'll make sure the cleric gets something in return. If I ask for virtue, I offer payment. Always. At the very least, I always pass along any dots to the cleric, and often any gems that drop (depending on how many of course).

It's just a good idea. If someone incurs a personal expense during a group, they should get something back for it. That's just fair I think.


I still don't really agree with your use of MA. To me, the MA is the guy who calls for an assist. There are two parts to that:

1. He's telling the members of the group which mob to attack.

2. He's telling the members *when* to attack.

The second bit is completely missing from your "necro MA" idea. You're only doing half the job of the MA. The point of MA is that he hits his "assist me" button when he's got the mob he wants folks to attack targeted *and* he wants everyone to start attacking it.


What you are describing I would just call "puller". In fact, I have two buttons I use when pulling and MAing (or just one of them). I have an "inc" button that says something like: "We've got a %t incomming. Get ready!", and an "MA" button that says: "Please assist me on %t NOW!!!".

Those are completely different things and are used for different reasons. The INC button is to let people know what's coming, and to notify the MA/MT (if it's not me) what my target is. He can then assist on me to obtain said target. However, the MA (not the puller) calls for the assist. This is critical. He's telling the group that he's got sufficient agro for them to start attacking. He's telling them that he's got the mob in the spot he wants to fight at. He's telling them it's safe to attack.


What you are doing with your necro is pulling. Nothing more. You aren't tanking the mob. You don't know when the MT has the right amount of agro. You don't know when it's safe for the rogue to start whacking, or the ranger to start firing. Only he does. Thus, he calls the assist. Not you. You are free to tell the MA which target he should attack (as is any puller or CC). But you don't call the assist.

If you are calling for assist, you really are doing it in an incredibly inefficient manner. There is zero reason why the rogue should be assisting off of you instead of the MT. The MT is the one who should engage the mob first. He's the one who's going to take agro off the puller and determine wehre the fight will occur (or stop the pull at that spot if he's also the puller). The MT most of the time will be attacking the mob already prior to calling for assist. Thus, if you assist off the MT and attack only when he tells you to, you guarantee that you don't break any mezzes or attack the wrong target. If we've go the necro pulling and calling assists, we're going to have problems.
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