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Fixing the Battle/Party System (was forum=152)Follow

#1 Feb 09 2011 at 9:02 AM Rating: Good
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Note to all:
I sincerely hope forum users will rate down anyone who does not post constructive feedback. The point of this thread is to post solutions on how to fix the battle system in XIV. Post only to provide valuable and constructive feedback. I don't just want you to agree/disagree I want you to say why and then provide thoughts on how to change/improve upon these ideas.


Here is a summary of both my thoughts and ideas I've seen floating around.

  • The Party Search Function
  • The lack of a party search discourages people from partying and meeting new people (semantics, technically a party search exists but is not widely used). It inhibits the community feeling that is necessary to a good MMO. It will also go a long way towards encouraging a better community understanding of party mechanics and class roles. There have been posts providing details for this change.

  • The Battle System
  • As I see it there are several elements that influence the battle system overall.
    • Race
    • Race plays a role in initial stats. I only mention it because it is a factor.
    • Active Class
    • The debate still rages between people who love the XI job system and the new class system. I think we have to keep the current class system. The flexibility it allows is an improvement even if you think the classes are slightly “muddy”. I think as you read on you will see other ways we can allow these classes to define unique roles. I don’t want to get embroiled in that discussion other than to say a small degree of specialization might be a benefit.
    • Equipped Gear
    • There is an opportunity to create gear that helps to focus each class further. If we had gear designed specifically for one class that could highlight a unique role such as tank gear for a GLD. FFXI had something similar with race specific equipment and job specific equipment. Now do you add completely new gear or make adjustments to current items in game? I think we all want to say add more of everything.
    • Current Stat Allocation
    • While we may not understand caps and limits entirely yet SE has explained what each stat does and what it is supposed to effect. Click here to see stat caps
    • Active Abilities
    • By applying a bonus attribute to equipped abilities we can encourage more strategic assignment of abilities. For instance, a Lancer in a party with "Cure" equipped would receive a bonus to Mind or Piety which doesn't help him deal additional damage. However, a Disciple of Magic with the ability equipped would see an increased potency in his healing. These bonuses would encourage creativity in equipped abilities between the different classes. People would be encouraged to focus their character uniquely through the abilities they equipped. You could probably also add elemental bonuses to active abilities. Equipping “Fire” would add resistance to fire but decrease resistance to “Ice”.
    • Positioning
    • On the FFXIV website it shows(ed) a diagram of ranges for each class. Gladiator, Marauder and Pugilist are all close quarters combatants while LNC is more a mid-line job. Mages and Archer I see more as back-line. In addition to considering elevation and critical hits from behind the mob I think you have also include more emphasis on these ranges. Mind you these are just ideas and it might destroy the ability to solo leves if the implementation wasn’t balanced. But for example a LNC fighting in close quarters might not do as much damage as one standing a little farther back and behind a PUG for example. I think this encourages some strategy to the battle... yes?
    • Physical/Elemental Weakness
    • I’m thinking of this more from a monster perspective. Most of the things I’ve fought resist occasionally but I haven’t really seen a monster that completely resists magic or is immune to piercing or blunt damage. In the console FF’s you often have to do some sort of blunt or piercing damage before the monster’s weakness to some spell or other move is exposed. Incapacitation is a good idea but it needs to be a part of the strategy for killing more monsters. More of these types of things need to be present to encourage teamwork from different classes.
    • Teamwork/Timing
    • Here is where I’m sure I’ll run into some trouble. I don’t care for the battle regimen system. It is too rigid. I think we have to go back to the old XI timing system. Why you ask? From what I understand of the system if 2 damage dealers are doing a regimen and I want to participate I have to let them know. Whereas in FFXI as long as I wasn’t casting cure or debuffing the monster I could just toss an elemental spell and deal some extra damage. Also, since the system seems to be going away from the “quality” of kill vs. “quantity”, bring back experience chains. This will encourage partying and hopefully teamwork. Maybe there is a happy medium between quality and quantity.


    So, how does this improve the battle system? Well, alone it doesn’t. Additional content is required and some adjustments to the classes. Adjusting the difficulty of the current monsters up and increasing the variety of monsters with unique abilities and traits will certainly help. Unfortunately, there are some ramifications to solo play if you mess with difficulty of leve monsters and I don’t have a work-around yet. Unless you increase rewards for casual gamers who are generally less fatigued.

    I think the recent patch was a step in the right direction. I think starting after R50 you will see an increased difficulty in leveling and much more emphasis on teamwork.

    Edited, Feb 9th 2011 2:02pm by kainsilv

    Edited, Feb 9th 2011 5:58pm by kainsilv

    Edited, Feb 11th 2011 7:20am by kainsilv
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    #2 Feb 09 2011 at 10:37 AM Rating: Good
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    FFXI had a great 6 man party set up. Ya at times it sucked but it worked because the game was designed around that. In FFXIV theirs really no stratagy in a party set up, just Zerge and healers spam heals. As of now the game is just way to easy. I think they need to get ride of 15 man parties, its to much of a cluster bomb. At times in Behest i don't even pull out my weapons. The mobs die to fast. sorry not really a solution for it here except party size. Yes i know you can put 2-15 in a party but right now the more you have the better the exp. i wouldn't be so bad if you could att 2 mobs at the same time and get full exp for it.

    In FFXI they had a great party search function. You could search by job, level and class. It was so easy. You could also put up a party flag and people could see if you were looking for a party. it was like this.

    /sea WAR 21-30.(/sea = see all) All you did was type that in and it would show all the warriors at lvl 21-30 in the game and if they were looking for a party it would have a little flag next to their name. Easy and fast. I think they should bring this

    Edited, Feb 9th 2011 11:38am by flavvor
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    #3 Feb 09 2011 at 11:12 AM Rating: Excellent
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    I like a lot of the ideas above. I think job specific gear is a must. If no one wants to experience the thrill of acquiring your first piece of AF gear again... I don't know what to think. Sure, we don't want everyone looking the same, but I LIKED those defining pieces for some jobs. Most jobs didn't wear their AF long, but for some jobs like PLD and RDM it was defining and I liked that a lot. Also, the idea of questing for the gear, of course, could make a return in that case. Being able to LFG and put up your party flag should be brought back as well; so should search comments, so people will know your reasons for looking to group. Also, when we click on another PC, can we get the option TELL in addition to check, browse, invite? Please?

    I think that the idea of having each ability equipped have certain bonuses is a VERY good idea. It's like the blue magic system from FFXI. Every BLU spell lends different stats and traits as well. It would definitely make each class think twice about which cross class abilities to add and could certainly help to define the roles a little more. I also don't mind the idea of bringing back old-fashioned skill chains, or exp chains. To me, there were some parts of FFXI that just didn't really need fixing. Ok, there was too much grind and not enough soloability. Not enough flexibility and too much cookie cutter job setups. Fixing that is great, but why throw out the exp chains? Just because you can change jobs by changing weapons doesn't mean there shouldn't be an armor set that only one weapon class can wear. I think they tried to reinvent their MMO a little too much; the only thing they really brought over from FFXI is the character design but such a successful MMO clearly had a lot of solid basics to lend to a subsequent project.

    That's the reason I think so many people are calling for FFXI features to be implemented. No, we don't want an FFXI clone, but why did SE go so far removed, minus the visual style, from something that worked so well. FFXIV should have built on top of, improved on top of, and improvised off of, most of the systems and mechanics that worked well in FFXI rather than seemingly building from scratch.

    Edited, Feb 9th 2011 12:15pm by MCraine

    Edited, Feb 9th 2011 12:17pm by MCraine
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    #4 Feb 09 2011 at 12:37 PM Rating: Good
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    Great points made by a lot of you guys.

    Mcraine, Let us not get into that discussion :) we have plenty of threads biting at that.

    Allow me to quote at a thread that I started.

    Quote:

    I've been thinking about the problems with the system and i find that the root of the problem comes from the game's roots. Originally in Alpha, the battle system WAS VERY DIFFERENT. The devs say they had the current system planned all along, but i do not believe them. The original system was your classic final fantasy ATB system, where you wait for your bar to fill up and then you pick your action. This original system would've allowed you to do a couple of things due to the wait time. There was plenty of time to reposition yourself, talk to party members, move your cursor to the next ability, set up battle regimens and so forth. Another thing that we have from that battle system is the way the animations worked. You picked your action, and the long animations made sense for such a methodical battle system. Not only was it animation length, but the properties of the animations included animation stun, where you could not reposition your character yourself. Sometimes the animations would reposition your characters. Switching to the new system (and ditching that stupid as hell effect gauge) was for the better, but the mechanics around it never caught up with it. It all has to do with animation. They used the same attack animations, which were caught by motion capture and probably hand tweaked by real animators, as they did in the alpha. These animations were not designed with the current system in mind. Many games feature attack animations with movement stun, even street fighter, which has a top notch battle system, The different between those games and FFXIV is that the attack animations were much much shorter. FINAL FANTASY XI did not have movement stun for normal attacks. They had attack animations of your character moving around and attacking at the same time. Even if you were in the middle of the animation, the game still let you reposition yourself and simply (and cheesily) let your character slide across the screen. In FFXIV, the game has moved away from purely ATB into semi-action ATB. It isn't exactly an action game (and i don't want it to be an action game), but its approaching that rhythm (the current battle system was based on user feedback that they wanted the tempo to be like the attack animations in Dirge of Cerberus, which is an action game.). When you have a full stamina bar and are wailing on the monster, you notice that the game often cancels its own animations to start another one. Do you know what we call this in Street Fighter? A combo. There should be combo animations that lead your character from one command into the next. This could also be a opportunity to encourage smart stamina meter play.


    This analysis explains why the battle system has odd quirks that you would not expect from one that seems pretty actiony. It also explains why the battle Regimen system exist. Before there was plenty of time in-between attacks, and the system would seem to be rather intuitive and easy. But now since we have a change in the sense of timing, many of the encounters and battle mechanics and quirks did not change with them.

    With the upcoming overhaul to the battle system being teased at us, the biggest thing we need to fix in terms of party play is the basics of the battle system still.

    That said I absolutely love what this system is right now, I just think it needs polish. One side of the polish is to overhaul the actual mechanics such as animations and so forth. The other side of polish is tweaking the balance, such as tweaking the countdown timers, ability cost, mp cost and so forth. Right now they have an internal Quality Assurance team that Yoshi-P is using to the fullest capabilities, and the speed of refinement is twice every month.
    #5 Feb 09 2011 at 12:41 PM Rating: Good
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    this belongs in the feedback forum...
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    #6 Feb 09 2011 at 12:44 PM Rating: Good
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    kainsilv wrote:


  • The Party Search Function
  • The lack of a party search discourages people from partying and meeting new people. It inhibits the community feeling that is necessary to a good MMO. It will also go a long way towards encouraging a better community understanding of party mechanics and class roles. There have been posts providing details for this change.


    Note, there is a party search function. I don't think they should scrap what they have - HOWEVER they should add additional functionality to it - namely, they should allow people to flag themselves and search characters by job etc. I think that a fusion of the current party system with the XI party search system would be ideal.

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    lolgaxe wrote:
    When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.

    clicky
    #7 Feb 09 2011 at 1:01 PM Rating: Excellent
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    Olorinus the Vile wrote:
    kainsilv wrote:


  • The Party Search Function
  • The lack of a party search discourages people from partying and meeting new people. It inhibits the community feeling that is necessary to a good MMO. It will also go a long way towards encouraging a better community understanding of party mechanics and class roles. There have been posts providing details for this change.


    Note, there is a party search function. I don't think they should scrap what they have - HOWEVER they should add additional functionality to it - namely, they should allow people to flag themselves and search characters by job etc. I think that a fusion of the current party system with the XI party search system would be ideal.


    The ultimate in irony is that the party search function they have in 14 is the one they couldn't get to work in 11 (and in the beginning people were IN FLAMES over it not working right, and throwing together just junk parties). But yeah, we are sitting at a point where SE could truly one-up 11 by getting the style similar to 11 working, so we could have parties searching for members, and members searching for parties.

    If they could combine the two, and make it so that a person who wants a party puts up their flag, and a party is nearby that is searching for that job type, they auto-join... now that would total rock:).
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    #8 Feb 09 2011 at 1:35 PM Rating: Good
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    Some improvements For me would be :
    --> The removal of mob territories, this would bring back chain pulling and the skills that come with it - fishing the mob in time,pulling without linking, sleeping the add at camp...etc - also the current run zerg run is not an efficient use of party time.
    --> Increasing the length of buffs like protect and shell - allowing the mage to concentrate on other magics.
    --> An improvement to macros! As a mage i would like to be able to cast blizzard with a frost wand and fire with a flame wand or create a mind set up for cure , under the current macro system you have to change each piece of gear individualy, by the time you've done this your mob is dead and your party is half way across the map, or they are dead!
    --> I would also like to see the stamina bar removed and the return to a set casting and attack timer - if i need to spam heals on my party members my stamina bar goes down causing my casts to be longer! Removing the need to button bash attack and reducing the possibility of repeatative strain injury from your X or enter button is a good thing!

    Theres are just some of many changes and tweeks i fell they could make!

    Edited, Feb 9th 2011 2:40pm by Embershayze
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    #9 Feb 09 2011 at 4:20 PM Rating: Decent
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    Improvements For me would be :
    the removal of mob territories, this would bring back chain pulling and the skills that come with it - fishing the mob in time,pulling without linking, sleeping the add at camp...etc - the current run zerg run is not an efficient use of party time.
    Increasing the length of buffs like protect and shell - allowing the mage to concentrate on other magics.
    An improvement to macros! As a mage i would like to be able to cast blizzard with a frost wand and fire with a flame wand or create a mind set up for cure , under the current macro system you have to change each piece of gear individualy, by the time you've done this your mob is dead and your party is half way across the map, or they are dead!
    I would also like to see the stamina bar removed and the return to a set casting and attack timer - if i need to spam heals on my party members my stamina bar goes down causing my casts to be longer! Removing the need to button bash attack and reducing the possibility of repeatative strain injury from your X or enter button is a good thing! This also raises the question of Haste if i'm hitting faster and losing stamina faster...

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    #10 Feb 09 2011 at 4:24 PM Rating: Decent
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    this should be in the feedback forum, it would get no notice by SE in the general forum
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    #11 Feb 09 2011 at 5:19 PM Rating: Decent
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    sorry for double poste : (
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    #12 Feb 09 2011 at 6:25 PM Rating: Good
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    For those who say that this should be in the feedback forum.

    It's true.

    However i would think that forum would go mostly ignored too. I've already posted what i had to say via the official feedback form and I encourage everyone to do the same. I do not think that means we cant talk about it here though.

    #13 Feb 09 2011 at 11:44 PM Rating: Excellent
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    Remove the current single claim system - scale back AoE abilities to spread damage in respect to the number of enemies to counter balance. Make AoE heals do less for multiple targets, cost more MP, and/or create more enmity. Profit.
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    #14 Feb 10 2011 at 5:56 AM Rating: Good
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    As far as active abilities are concerned you do realize, that would negate the effect and guild marks spent into affinity. Basically wasting 120k guild marks. I be mad as hell if they made affinity useless like that. The mechanic of the game is for any battling class to use another battling classes ability, without affinity we already take a penalty for it. Coupled with the fact that DoW can't aoe with spells. There's enough limits already in place.

    If someone wanted to make a Red Mage type class or a Dark Knight, they would get the shaft on creating such characters.

    Edited, Feb 10th 2011 7:36am by Spyrit178
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    #15 Feb 10 2011 at 7:19 AM Rating: Decent
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    Great! Thank you for bringing this up. I appreciate feedback and criticism. It will help make the game better.

    Why does it have to negate guild marks spent to gain affinity? Wouldn’t it build upon the bonus granted by affinity purchased with guild marks? Not having toyed with affinities yet myself I invite you to correct me if I am wrong. As a Disciple of War if I wanted to focus my character toward a PLD-like discipline could I purchase affinities that grant bonuses to MP, Cure, +MND and DEF. I would expect Disciples of Magic classes to have an innate affinity already so it seems natural to have the equipped abilities grant bonuses that enhance those abilities further. When you purchase an affinity progressing down the path then having the bonus attached to the ability actually benefits you even more.

    Perhaps this is the way to drive specialization into advanced jobs. Eventually create quests that open up new options in the respective guilds.
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    #16 Feb 10 2011 at 8:07 AM Rating: Good
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    You're suggesting adding in another penalty for not being within the correct discipline, on top of the penalties already put in place.
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    #17 Feb 10 2011 at 12:25 PM Rating: Good
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    Spyrit178 wrote:
    You're suggesting adding in another penalty for not being within the correct discipline, on top of the penalties already put in place.


    Yeah, I am against that too. TBH - I would like to see less penalty for cross classing skills OR the ability to repurchase the affinity trait to unlock abilities more fully.
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    lolgaxe wrote:
    When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.

    clicky
    #18 Feb 11 2011 at 3:09 PM Rating: Decent
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    I don't think EXP skill chains would work as well in FFXIV even if SE wanted to implement them. Since we don't really have camps and then a mob pool to pull from, I have a hard time seeing as how it would really work. There is/can be so much running between mobs that any EXP chain timer would really run out just running to the next mob.

    SE would have to change some things for it to work properly.

    I've only seen a few places where it could work, like the crab camp, Cellars area in Grid, and possibly Cass. Hallow.
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