I dont think anyone can disagree with this article.Follow

What specifically are you talking about when you say SE should invest in other forms of progression? Vertical and Horizontal are the standards but you go on to say.:

AFAIK, raiding is what you do in vertical progression so I'm not certain what you're asking for if you clearly don't want a horizontal shift...

Edited, Sep 1st 2016 2:47am by FilthMcNasty

Incorrect:



In HIS OWN WORDS, the interest increased, because it means PARTICIPATION levels increased due to having a "story mode" which was further true for Midas as it is easier than Gordias. This is why I said unless you raid you will never see how things truly are. So in the guy who runs the game's own words, they're happy with the setup, hence "the formula won't change", not because "barely anyone does the hardcore version", you want to so believe that simply because the CLEAR rate is low. Everyone who doesn't sit around saying "it's too hard" "you can only static it" "there's no accessibility" are busy clearing the easier floors of it. Remember, NOT EVEN THE MAJORITY of the playerbase did the storyline prior to 3.0 and THE MAJORITY isn't even flagged for 3.4 yet, that would mean the storyline content is inaccessible too since the clear rate is low based on how accessible the content is to you, like any other content.

But like I said, playing in a culture that constantly says you need statics for even easy content like ex primals, I guess I can see why you'd believe accessibility is tied to scheduling.



The problem is.

1. You do not need a static, stop saying this.
2. "not fun"

You're not allowed to say this when you've literally said in many topics "what's fun for you might not be fun for others", so you can't use "fun" as a argument on what the developers should/shouldn't do.

PoTD isn't fun, so they really shouldn't waste more time with that content. I guarantee I'll get told otherwise.



Edited, Sep 1st 2016 6:59am by Theonehio

Actually, as per the original JP text, it implies more people are gaining interest in doing the "Savage" content (as in the actual raid content) because the normal mode introduced them into "end-game" content as said:



whereas the ones who didn't didn't do coil didn't have an "introduction" tier. That's why they're keeping both normal and savage even for 4.x, or else they would have actually done the "third tier."



Yet in your words you stated they should stop creating content people don't find fun. Yet there's plenty of people who find the raid content and ex primals fun even if it gets repetitive when it's the only content left to do. Which goes back to my point of PoTD, a lot of people were disappointed with it and don't find it fun at all but if you so much as say "they shouldn't waste time on it" you'll get told otherwise, as you pretty much proven.



Fewer people would leave the game if the game itself was better, don't try to say Raiding is why people quit this game. Trust me, I also play on THE MOST social NA server (Balmung) and I know plenty who left for reasons far, far away from raiding.

You read the OF and probably FB and Reddit groups too you know full well a lot of people get bored quickly with every patch being the SAME THING over and over.



Here's your problem. There's low completion rates of people completing STORYLINE quests. Something EXTREMELY ACCESSIBLE to EVERYONE. So no, there's no "liberties taken" other than you simply wanting to believe so badly raiding is the cause for this game's issues.



Per server the data show storyline completion is also "yesterday's news" - let's get rid of that too. The data isn't accurate until SE reveals HARD numbers, because unofficial parsing uses a method that doesn't count everyone.

Once a week Minion.
Once a week Mount (if it even drops.)

Who's to say the person even uses said mount or minion item? You already lose numbers and thus skewed %.

You're extremely biased against harder content, which is fine.

Edited, Sep 1st 2016 10:54am by Theonehio

I don't really see how this would be considered antiquated at all. Working harder to earn more is something that's universal across more than just gaming.

Players in NA already don't PUG nearly as much as JP. Changes like you suggest here would make it much more difficult to find out if players you're inviting to your groups are vetted. How do you discern whether or not a prospective group member has any sort of tested experience? If raid tier gear is restricted to players who raid, you at least know that person was able to execute the mechanics of a given encounter.

I don't think it's a leap to say that this would push players more toward the 'must have a static' mentality since knowing the players you're grouping with is the only real guage of performance. I don't think that's your intent.

Earn more, sure, but not a monopoly. That's the rub.

MMOs are in the unfortunately unique situation that you have to rely on other players for the harder content, and that's more a matter of design than necessity. While you're stuck thinking people who don't deserve whatever will be fooling those who want quality players, it's just as possible a higher personal gear level (and collectively across the group) can help mitigate ***** ups on mechanics. And if mechanics don't even allow that, well, whether or not the content is designed well is another matter entirely.

Putting incentive for content is one thing, promoting exclusivity of content is another. Raids don't need to be alone on top loot wise for it to be worthwhile. Honestly most raiders are going to want to raid regardless of the loot table involved. They want to have the best gear primarily for bragging rights and to entice others to try raiding to keep their numbers populated - That alone should tell you that they're aware of the turnover rate of participation. (Sadly, those who are not interested in raiding won't be drawn by such things, and do feel disenfranchised by a narrow endgame, probably part of why there was a larger drop off this lul cycle.)

But there will always be the problem of raid structure problems. Fewer people these days than ever really have the time to dedicate to raiding. Not so much in the effort or skills department - but in the logistics of it. THE most called for feature in Destiny is a Raid finder. The highest participation base in any MMO is the difficulty raiding that allows you to queue for pugs, in spite of the terrible reputation pugs get.

The most popular game genres right now feature drop-in play, even when they're heavily multiplayer. These days accessibility is the default formula for success.

The trick is balancing that with content longevity. SE's not too far off the mark with that right now, it just needs more methods of doing so, as gear right now is more akin leveling than an actual collection, like in horizontal progression games. Again I feel like contextual skills that share the five skill limit of our secondary/subclass skills would potentially add a lot of depth to our current mechanical, teamwork, and progression systems that is sorely needed at this juncture - especially if they come with a built in leveling and progression system. As far as Gear progression. I feel like if they had given raid tier gear to floors 101+ of Deep Dungeon they'd have something good on their hands there.

Diadem needs a content rework, but I don't feel as if their focus of using it to provide crafting materials and materia leveling is too far off. They'd have to fundamentally change it from the ground up to make it raid-level and I'm not sure that's a worthwhile venture at this point, given how most players will still view it as damaged goods even after a revision.

Anyways, lots that can be done here. We're never going to agree on what should be done. We're just too divergent in philosophies.

I got this far and just couldn't go on.

Hio, no offense, but you're talking out of your ***. Making accusations on the player base that doesn't exist. If Players 'diddn't want to improve' they'd never get past the 24 mans. It's as simple as that. What you state is absolute bull and nothing short of it.

There are, a very rare subset of players who absolutely don't want to improve at all. They probably seem larger to you by comparison because they likely comprise the same overall numbers as raiders. Most players, however, are willing to learn mechanics, work as a team, and learn a fight.

What they don't want is to straight out memorize sixty different mechanics over the course of two months while being saddled with what is effectively a second work schedule. I don't know how this hasn't gotten through to you in three years of Thayos explaining it aside from you flat out being disrespectful to the perspective and the facts behind it. The majority of people simply don't have the time to be not doing content in order to even start getting a static together. Let alone having a regimented time schedule.

I for one certainly don't lack the drive to better my skills (aside from the limits of carpel tunnel beginning to set into my wrists). But from the time I get home to the time I have to go back to bed for work in the morning, I've got five hours on a week day, total, between getting myself fed, making sure everything's taken care of in the house (with a disabled SO and multiple pets, no less) and anything else than FFXIV. And one of those days is already taken up by a weekly table-top night my SO and I do together.

Just how am I going to fit in the daily roulettes multiple days a week for me to cap currency each week, let alone the gilmaking necessary to keep up with the consumable costs required for me to raid effectively? Let alone finding the two days a week open to raid -and before you say weekend days, I'll have to remind you that house chores do need dedicated time as well to keep up.

For someone who has obligations, or even something as simple as one contrasting hobby and a work life - the way raiding is required to have attention to is obstructively cumbersome. If there was a way to, on my own, play at my own pace when I had free time and get the mechanics down without worry of other people messing up and stalling my own practice time out - I'd have no problems - because then I could hop in whenever I had a free moment to do so and train till I got it down.

But that's not how this system works. The system as it stands now might have worked in 2006. It flat out doesn't for me now. And the reward system in general just isn't enticing enough for me to squeeze more effort into the sardine can of my schedule.

I don't think I'm wrong for saying I want a valid endgame that I could jump into at my own pacing, without having the schedule time. There is a lifestyle out there that would benefit from that sort of option. Availability is not a question of skill or dedication. This is a video game, for crying out loud and it should be aware of it's place of priority in peoples lives. Exclusively rewarding those who decide it to be its only hobby to the alienation of everyone else is bad. Bad business sense, it's bad for communities and it's bad for the average skill levels of players to boot.

SE would be wise to get with the times.

This all said, accessibility is only one pillar of four that makes content healthy.

Accessibility, Longevity, Engagement, and Encouragement. When one or more of these are lacking, the content suffers and the players are discontent.

Raiding has decent engagement. But it lacks in encouragement and accessibility, and its method of longevity is antiquated. It really needs to be reanalyzed on how it can better meet these four keynote goals.

Mmmmhmmmm.

You comparing the accessibility of Coil to Alexander is a friggin joke, and is pretty much exactly why people here are not looking at you as a "casual" player.

For actual casual players the difference is like night and day.

And no, the old system was not perfect, unless you consider storyline content too difficult to complete until it's way outdated / the following expansion has already hit to be "perfect". I, for one, do not.

Edited, Sep 4th 2016 12:16am by Fynlar

Yeah, as Thayos tried to emphasize earlier, accessibility is more than just being able to click it in the DF or just walking up to some entrance and triggering it. The likelihood of completion is also a factor in determining whether or not it should even be considered such. And conversation from there just veers into the whole schedule, job of choice, static preference, and other factors we've beaten into dead horse territory.

The PUG scene for any content deemed difficult pretty much boils down to nobody ever really wanting to help people get good at it or even benefit, but instead take advantage of those who have already done so. Requesting ilvls above the prescribed minimum? Happens. Demanding linked achievements? Happens. Not wanting classes that aren't listed in some cookie cutter guide they view as gospel? Happens. Somewhere along the way, the thought of challenge has been confused for minimizing risk. And it's completely understandable no one would want to throw themselves at something for a few hours and walk away with nothing to show for it. Yet, the raiding scene seems content in arguing against their own self-interest because tradition or whatever. It's almost the same BS as the concept of the American Dream, where it's hella easy to say someone can be/do anything if they just tug on the ol' bootstraps and soldier on, but outside factors are constantly working against the individual, and not always out of malice.

These kinds of games, like society, are meant to grow and evolve. If you're starting off from the perspective there has to be winners and losers, then it's already game over. The thought that raiding should be "kicked to the curb" is more of a sentiment of experimentation. After all, this genre is proliferated with games that have been raidraidraid for years now. And there is a certain degree of hypocrisy there in refusing to acknowledge that people might want a different way to play and grow, as it's either conform or go away. So, if you truly feel that a bitter sentiment, well, welcome to how everyone who has tried argue against the system has felt. Fortunately, MMOs aren't as constrained as reality is when it comes to enacting change. Lord knows, though, the thought of some people I've played with over time possibly holding power over others is a scary, scary thought. And it's not because they couldn't get out the red.

Because....both content are accessible if you're willing to put the time and effort into it rather than sit around and say it's too hard and not even bother. People have always said "Being casual doesn't mean you're bad or can't do content", so "casual" is a matter of convenience in an argument as I said. It's why I even said "Alexander failed" because in comparison to coil, they made a serious misstep in design due to the inclusion of story/normal mode, because the story itself wasn't worth much..which left one of the reasons people did Coil, for example, not present in Alexander Savage. So casual seem to have a broad range of definitions, since everytime the argument comes up, "time" "responsibilities" and "need a static" seem to always come up..which is funny, because I have limited time, tons of responsibilities and still managed to do this game's content because unsurprisingly, the content isn't that hard when all you're basically doing is reading from a script and the game's itemization is tossed at you compared to XI where you actually have to take awhile gearing before you can be useful in some end-game content based on job (no one wants a RDM that can't land debuffs.) So who knows what "Casual" actually means, other than to claim someone isn't casual because they do content in an easy MMORPG.



It wasn't though. Nothing prevented you from clearing it just like nothing prevented you from completing the Ex primals, which people say is "too hard even for midcore players." People always wait until content is outdated to go through it, which is why SE forces us into older content and even forced us into older ex primals back in the day because when most people who could/wanted to clear it got all they wanted, no one touched the content leaving newer players (the ones who wait) hard up in terms of queues. Look at "Learning Party" party finders versus farming ones. At this point in time there's literally no reason to do Nidhogg Ex because SE handed out ilvl235 and 240 weapons, but a big problem is they lock new ex primals to server only, which depending on your server, heavily influences your views on content, which honestly makes sense, because if I solely played on Balmung for example, I too would think no one could clear ex primals or coil until nerfs and 50% echo.

There's got to be a point when we just admit content in general is just "too hard" for certain players because there's only so many tiers of content this game has that kind of leads the arguments towards 'people just don't want to bother with anything other than content that is extremely easy and want to be handsomely rewarded for it.'



T2 is more accessible because people came up with the strategy to completely negate actually fighting ADS by healing through enrage which even lead to Yoshida responding about it, which leads back to "there being mechanics." So instead of fighting the content which to this day is still the only branched encounter in this game (same end boss though) per design..people would rather kill only 1 ADS in the span of time you could normally kill 2-4 depending on people with you. So outside of Enrage, if "accessibility" is the ability to complete it by an average player, T2 wasn't accessible till enrage became the norm for pickups, so sadly..in terms of XIV as of today, "accessible content" for the average player...isn't a good outlook for this game because people still consider even Final Steps of Faith normal "too hard"...and since it's measured in degrees based on your example..

Gordias Savage 1 and 2 are easy.
Gordias Savage 3 and 4 are not.
Midas Savage 1 and 2 are easy
Midas Savage 3 is easy but mechanic heavy.
Midas Savage 4 is not.

The average player could clear Gordias Savage 1 and 2 since it's literally the same fight from normal with obvious changes (we all knew the fact there's 4 adds it was nerfed for normal mode) and the only other large change is baiting acid pools to NOT being on the boss..which means if people still chose not to do even the easier ones (A1/2/5/6 have the highest clear rates) then it comes down to players just not wanting to improve, which people take it in a bad way. For example A1 and 2 are a DPS check..it's basically 2 glorified trash pull encounter. This is why both are extremely accessible and why A3S got the hate it did and why it broke a lot of statics, because people COMING FROM THE COIL DAYS did 1 and 2 fine..then 3 just..was unnecessary. However, when we define "average player"..I naturally want to assume the average player knows how to play the game and their job because pretty much every content in XIV is designed as per yoshida's own words on an "overall dps goal", meaning if the raid DPS has to be 1000 to clear the content, it means everyone has to pull their weight, most other content in the game people tend to shoulder the weight of others, something yoshida said at gamescom himself whenever he sees another BLM "not doing well."

However, the fact Coil had PUGs even on NA servers shows just how accessible it was compared to Alexander Savage by large, which was my point. I've been watching since 3.0 on Balmung and Sarga and I can safely say, no one PUGs Alexander Savage, 99% of the time it's trying to REPLACE or recruit for a static but not a straight up PUG hell I've only seen 6 Savage learning parties between 3.0-3.3, compared to my main's server which has quite a lot more pugs for content people keep saying "you need a static for."

So I guess it comes down to what people mean, in their own words, what an "average" player is, because people still wipe to Ravana Ex to this day and he was easier than Bismarck Ex by design since he spends most of his time charging attacks (it is a Waltz after all) but you have people who can clear Seph Ex and still wipe to Ravana simply because Seph has a very limited rotation of mechanics (much like Titan) that he repeats until auto-wipe.



Fights like these I loved, but they didn't need more mechanics considering messing up shriek or voice even once was gameover, which is why statics broke a lot in T7 from what I hear on Sarga. T8 was the wall for many "Casual raiders" and T9 was probably the best designed of the first 2 coils because it mixed everything (mechanics, dps check if you want to make your life easier and party coordination.)

Oh and as a side note on the whole "disrespect thing", you have certain people on the OF even saying raiders have "stockholm syndrome"..so I don't think anyone here is in the right of saying I'm "disrespectful."



Edited, Sep 4th 2016 5:16pm by Theonehio