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now THIS sound greatFollow

#1 Feb 01 2016 at 11:13 AM Rating: Good
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Next up is the previously named Beginner's Hall. It's official name is now Stone, Sky, Sea and they are battle challenges for solo players. You can challenge any content solo in these battle challenges including the Savage raids. This will allow players to practice content before going in with a party and that includes the new 3.2 content.


Though I hope the content is completable solo too. The way it should be is the DPS check should b scaled for one person and the HP or what not should be scaled for solo play too so that you can practice the mechanics plus do the required DPS and win the fight... but you get no rewards (obviously) an if you can successfully win the practice fight solo, then when you go to do the real thing with a party, youd already 100% know what to do and know ahead of time that youll meet the DPS requirements (as you met them in the solo version).. the solo and party DPs requirements will obviously be different but the difference will be 4+ ppl hitting it instead of 1. So if everyone in your group did the practice and beat it then their combined DPS in a party will match whats needed to beat the REAL raid thus... youd win... if it works like that that would make this the best feature EVER added in this game and finally end the "must have experience/completed" parties.


Now THIS im looking forward to
#2 Feb 01 2016 at 2:00 PM Rating: Decent
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As with everything else Yoshi promises and details, I'm waiting to see exactly what purpose it will serve and compatibility between actual raids and this "training" version, since I noticed he mentioned that you can do multiple tiers, but when asked about adding multiple tiers for raid content he said it was impossible due to funding and lack of staff.

So it's definitely a wait and see for me.
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#3 Feb 01 2016 at 2:05 PM Rating: Excellent
Would be awesome if you can skip around to different phases of fights -- that way you could start learning fights easier without needing to find seven other people who are also capable of clearing earlier phases.
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#4 Feb 02 2016 at 11:58 AM Rating: Default
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Thayos wrote:
Would be awesome if you can skip around to different phases of fights -- that way you could start learning fights easier without needing to find seven other people who are also capable of clearing earlier phases.

That would be awesome, then it would also let you repeat certain sections until you can do those difficult sections with your eyes closed provided no lag interferes in party.

What do you think about a reward in these that works like this:

Your ilvl required gear or certain skills are slightly limited in power in the actual partied dungeons until you master each solo section of a dungeon with a competent rating slowly unlocking your required ilvl gear or skills for maximum potential.

Or would that be too grindy or demanding on less skilled players?
#5 Feb 03 2016 at 12:06 AM Rating: Default
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Considering the typical player of this game (that it's targeted to) can't even dodge AoEs or still says Cuch's barf is "too quick to dodge" would find something like that too demanding.
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#6 Feb 04 2016 at 3:59 PM Rating: Decent
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Raiding isn't about practice as much as it's about communication, awareness and execution. I don't think practicing mechanics on your own is going to make your group any more likely to clear a raid. Besides, any of the mechanics that you can practice on your own without any coordination or planning aren't really things that are going to be any real roadblock for your group anyway.

You don't really have to practice moving away from an area before death rains from the sky. You already know what happens when you move or when you don't move so it's just a matter of executing. The point of raiding is that you have 8 players capable of executing consistently enough that you don't spend weeks trying the same encounter and failing to the same mechanic without making necessary adjustments. Though I don't dislike this event because it's another thing to do, I don't really see it contributing to successful raids beyond possibly getting those who never raided at all into normal raids.
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#7 Feb 04 2016 at 4:09 PM Rating: Excellent
I think this could be successful if you're allowed to jump around to different mechanics within fights. For example, my FC could use this by more knowledgeable/experienced people taking groups of people through each stage while explaining mechanics over teamspeak. Explaining mechanics is one thing, but being able to experience mechanics is so much better. This way, people could become familiar with all phases of a fight without having to be able to master each phase first. It would make learning much more efficient. And, as I said earlier, experiencing each phase of mechanics wouldn't have to depend first on finding seven other people who could master all the previous mechanics.

What it comes down to is there's not a good reason to leave up barriers.
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#8 Feb 04 2016 at 6:31 PM Rating: Decent
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Thayos wrote:
I think this could be successful if you're allowed to jump around to different mechanics within fights. For example, my FC could use this by more knowledgeable/experienced people taking groups of people through each stage while explaining mechanics over teamspeak. Explaining mechanics is one thing, but being able to experience mechanics is so much better. This way, people could become familiar with all phases of a fight without having to be able to master each phase first.


The only reason I disagree is because it's been done before with proving grounds in WoW. You're tested on things like moving while maintaining DPS, being able to heal multiple targets, tanking multiple targets, switching targets as needed and the like. I just get the feeling that other than players who have never raided before who might be more willing to give it a try, it's not going to be useful as a tool for players already raiding.

I think most people won't participate in it beyond the initial run through for the achievement, minion, mount or whatever else it rewards. Other than that the reward will be outclassed by a real raid. The only penalty for failing in a real raid setting is lost time; something that you sacrifice regardless of which version you choose to participate in.

Since there's really nothing lost for making attempts in the actual raid setting(aside from the obvious difficulty), it's not going to make sense to anyone besides players who aren't familiar with raiding at all.


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Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#9 Feb 04 2016 at 8:03 PM Rating: Excellent
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Since there's really nothing lost for making attempts in the actual raid setting(aside from the obvious difficulty), it's not going to make sense to anyone besides players who aren't familiar with raiding at all.


It's helpful if you just want to practice later phases without silly mistakes/deaths/wipes getting in the way. Those are the kinds of things that happen more often when you don't have a dedicated static.

Edited, Feb 4th 2016 6:03pm by Thayos
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#10 Feb 05 2016 at 3:07 AM Rating: Decent
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Thayos wrote:
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Since there's really nothing lost for making attempts in the actual raid setting(aside from the obvious difficulty), it's not going to make sense to anyone besides players who aren't familiar with raiding at all.


It's helpful if you just want to practice later phases without silly mistakes/deaths/wipes getting in the way. Those are the kinds of things that happen more often when you don't have a dedicated static.

I guess I can see wanting to see later phases of an encounter, but it's not going to help your group clear the part of the encounter they're stuck on. Whether or not you have a static is of no consequence either. The only people who this would make a notable difference for are those who didn't previously raid and don't have a grip on the basic concepts.

For everyone else it's just a matter of knowledge > awareness > execution. The players clearing raid content without all the mistakes and wipes are the players who can quickly identify which of these three things they're lacking and correct it.
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Rinsui wrote:
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HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#11 Feb 05 2016 at 8:39 AM Rating: Decent
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In reality, Raids are 90% awareness than anything.

For example you have people who find content "too hard" that isn't hard at all (Bismarck, Ravana, Coils, Regular Alexander, Void Ark) because that have zero raid awareness and have no idea to adapt to situations. This is why training will only do so much in the long run. If you're forced into doing this before you can enter a raid, it's good and people can NO LONGER ***** ABOUT "WAH I DON'T WANT TO WATCH A VIDEO" and thus do what the Japanese do - actually a bit of research before going into a raid."

I see that being one of the main benefits of this. I mean, just going into Void Ark you can see how people mess up the easiest mechanics because they either are lazy or simply don't care, like Cetus's dive bombs. You had to deal with dive bombs in previous content, no excuses. You know not to stack on people..yet you're guaranteed to have people run INTO EVERYONE with it..and you have people NOT MOVE OUT OF THE GOD DAMN WAY because they can't take a second to look at the incoming water death. (Awareness.)
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#12 Feb 05 2016 at 9:33 AM Rating: Excellent
Being able to learn later parts of raids wI'll be helpful for those of us who don't have time to learn in statics but are often held back by the kinds of people Hio is talking about.

For example, I can say to my fc, "I know the first two phases of this fight, but I can't find a pickup group that can make it to stage 3. Can we practice that in the beginners hall?" Then we can jump in and I can learn stage 3, and then I can maybe even do the actual raid with my fc and get a clear.

Being able to jump straight into that later phase focuses the learning process, especially for phase-specific knowledge/execution elements. It would allow you to repeat what you need to learn to memorize the script without clutter from previous phases.


Edited, Feb 5th 2016 8:01am by Thayos
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#13 Feb 05 2016 at 12:16 PM Rating: Good
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It's much more fun to run into the fight blind and adapt as you go. Guides and videos completely rip the soul and fun out of the game.
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#14 Feb 05 2016 at 3:30 PM Rating: Decent
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Thayos wrote:
Being able to learn later parts of raids wI'll be helpful for those of us who don't have time to learn in statics but are often held back by the kinds of people Hio is talking about.

Having a static still has nothing at all to do with having the awareness to read and react. I have no idea why you're glued to it like it's some sort of talking point, but there's really no relation. You don't need a static to have awareness or reactions.

I would also just point out that those people holding you back... if they can't be bothered to look at a 5 min youtube vid or read a short blog post then they're not going to participate in the beginner's hall outside of what's required. If people are holding you back then it's they who should be practicing, not you. For someone who doesn't seem to have any time I'm curious why you'd spend it practicing for no reward when you could spend it raiding...




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Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#15 Feb 05 2016 at 5:27 PM Rating: Excellent
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Having a static still has nothing at all to do with having the awareness to read and react. I have no idea why you're glued to it like it's some sort of talking point, but there's really no relation. You don't need a static to have awareness or reactions.


Because to simply step into these fights and expect to read/react your way to a win is very inefficient. In fact, I don't think anyone in the history of FFXIV has read/reacted his way to a win. These fights require repetition and memorization (which I would term under your designation of "knowledge"). There is some reading/reacting that occurs within certain mechanics (such as placing meteors), but winning these battles relies far more on memorization than reacting. I call the ability to anticipate and navigate each mechanic "execution," and if you're being honest with yourself, then you'd acknowledge it's incredibly difficult to execute if all you're doing is reacting. That's why sports teams practice game plans and don't just run onto the field hoping to react their way to victory.

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I would also just point out that those people holding you back... if they can't be bothered to look at a 5 min youtube vid or read a short blog post then they're not going to participate in the beginner's hall outside of what's required. If people are holding you back then it's they who should be practicing, not you.


I totally agree. That's exactly why I hate pickup parties, and why I don't see the point in doing these raids unless I have either a static or some other form of more reliable help. Pickup parties tend to be disasters, and if even one person is clueless, then it's pretty much a giant waste of time. There's no way for me to learn State 2 if even one person in the group isn't prepared for Stage 1, and that happens All. The. Freaking. Time. (Or, it did when I raided more often.)

With help from my FC mates, a Beginner's Hall with the ability to skip around would greatly alleviate that stress and allow me to practice beyond the capacity of most pickup parties. Yes, the ability to jump phases wouldn't be necessary, but it would be immensely helpful if I'm trying to learn a later stage of the fight, considering one mistake usually results in a wipe and the need to do everything over again.


Edited, Feb 5th 2016 3:31pm by Thayos
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#16 Feb 05 2016 at 10:59 PM Rating: Decent
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BrokenFox wrote:
It's much more fun to run into the fight blind and adapt as you go. Guides and videos completely rip the soul and fun out of the game.



this..

i COULD watch a video or read a guide but Id rather learn and see for myself... I mean the ppl who MADE those guides of videos didnt read a guide or watch a video first and they beat it right?
#17 Feb 06 2016 at 2:09 AM Rating: Excellent
True reading/reacting was much more possible in FFXI, because battles weren't so heavily scripted and jobs had more unique tools at their disposal to deal with various situations. There were often several ways to win fights, often depending on your unique party setup (or you could read a guide and go in with a cookie-cutter group).

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#18 Feb 06 2016 at 2:26 AM Rating: Decent
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Thayos wrote:
Because to simply step into these fights and expect to read/react your way to a win is very inefficient. In fact, I don't think anyone in the history of FFXIV has read/reacted his way to a win.

The point is that the mechanics aren't as involved as the strategies used to overcome them. If you stand in fire you get burned. We all know that, but the way to successfully deal with a mechanic like that isn't simply to move away. Sometimes you purposely position the boss so that it's easier to move, sometimes you move in a certain pattern to avoid making the encounter more difficult... the strategy you form for dealing with these issues is often what makes them more difficult to execute.

For that reason, it makes sense to practice these situations in the actual raid. I just don't think that newer players looking to start raiding for the first time will bother with the hall outside of what they might be required to do. Again, this is based on data we already have.

Looking solely at DPS roles which were thought to be easiest, roughly 80% of players completed WoW's proving grounds far enough to get them into heroic dungeons. That drops down to just over 10% who went on to complete the next trial. The number of people who went beyond that into endless proving grounds is so small that it barely registers on the bar graph. Those numbers are dismal even when you consider the large part of that game's population that is only interested in PvP.
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Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#19 Feb 06 2016 at 2:40 AM Rating: Excellent
Agree about newer players not using the hall. I think that will be used more by more tenured players who have in game social groups.
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#20 Feb 06 2016 at 5:45 AM Rating: Decent
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Thayos wrote:
Agree about newer players not using the hall. I think that will be used more by more tenured players who have in game social groups.

Typical raiders spend 9 or more hours a week(assuming the average 3x3) raiding already. How many of them will spend more time acting like they're raiding for no reward?

This content is for people who don't already raid.
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Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#21 Feb 06 2016 at 6:26 AM Rating: Decent
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DuoMaxwellxx wrote:
BrokenFox wrote:
It's much more fun to run into the fight blind and adapt as you go. Guides and videos completely rip the soul and fun out of the game.



this..

i COULD watch a video or read a guide but Id rather learn and see for myself... I mean the ppl who MADE those guides of videos didnt read a guide or watch a video first and they beat it right?


While true, however, if I go into 7 month old content now (Alexander Normal, Ravana, Bismarck Ex) or 2-3 year old content (Coil, older Ex primals) and you're constantly wiping the party, there's no excuse to not have did research. It's not a problem to research in the Japanese community even if you still need to get in there and figure it out, I have no idea why the NA/EU population have such a resistance to not want to waste people's time lol.

Going in blind and such is fine with your friends, but once you join someone's PF or join the DF, you're not simply just "on your time" anymore, you're on 3-23 other people's time at that point and suffice to say, not every one, especially healer/tank want to deal with constant wipes on something they've been clearing endlessly. It's fine to be new but being entirely clueless when there's resources available to you is no excuse. That's why the absolute only benefit to this would be to get an idea of what you'd be in for.



Edited, Feb 6th 2016 4:28am by Theonehio
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#22 Feb 06 2016 at 7:22 AM Rating: Decent
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Theonehio wrote:
DuoMaxwellxx wrote:
BrokenFox wrote:
It's much more fun to run into the fight blind and adapt as you go. Guides and videos completely rip the soul and fun out of the game.



this..

i COULD watch a video or read a guide but Id rather learn and see for myself... I mean the ppl who MADE those guides of videos didnt read a guide or watch a video first and they beat it right?


While true, however, if I go into 7 month old content now (Alexander Normal, Ravana, Bismarck Ex) or 2-3 year old content (Coil, older Ex primals) and you're constantly wiping the party, there's no excuse to not have did research. It's not a problem to research in the Japanese community even if you still need to get in there and figure it out, I have no idea why the NA/EU population have such a resistance to not want to waste people's time lol.

Going in blind and such is fine with your friends, but once you join someone's PF or join the DF, you're not simply just "on your time" anymore, you're on 3-23 other people's time at that point and suffice to say, not every one, especially healer/tank want to deal with constant wipes on something they've been clearing endlessly. It's fine to be new but being entirely clueless when there's resources available to you is no excuse. That's why the absolute only benefit to this would be to get an idea of what you'd be in for.



Edited, Feb 6th 2016 4:28am by Theonehio


I totally agree and that's what I've always done, but that's also why I've been unsubbed for the past 2 months. Got tired of everything being so choreographed. I'm just keeping tabs on the game at this point to see if anything interesting comes along.
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#23 Feb 06 2016 at 9:01 AM Rating: Decent
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Theonehio wrote:
DuoMaxwellxx wrote:
BrokenFox wrote:
It's much more fun to run into the fight blind and adapt as you go. Guides and videos completely rip the soul and fun out of the game.



this..

i COULD watch a video or read a guide but Id rather learn and see for myself... I mean the ppl who MADE those guides of videos didnt read a guide or watch a video first and they beat it right?


That's why the absolute only benefit to this would be to get an idea of what you'd be in for.



Edited, Feb 6th 2016 4:28am by Theonehio


You sy that like its a bad thing. I mean what ELSE would people expect to get out of it? >.>
#24 Feb 06 2016 at 3:13 PM Rating: Good
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DuoMaxwellxx wrote:
You sy that like its a bad thing. I mean what ELSE would people expect to get out of it? >.>

It's a bad thing because a team with very limited resources should probably be focusing elsewhere.

The players who are making guides and videos understand just like anyone else that standing in fire is bad. The only difference is that they've given thought to what you're doing before and what you should be doing after you're avoiding standing in that fire. If I thought that the beginner's hall were a step toward building that awareness, that ability to question and understand exactly what it is you're doing and why... then I'd be all for it.

As it stands now, it's sounding more like something for players who have never raided. GIven the numbers we already know about who's participating and clearing Alexander at least at the normal level, it sounds like a waste of time and resources, which they're already short on...


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Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#25 Feb 06 2016 at 3:22 PM Rating: Excellent
I'm with Filth in that I'd rather them spend time developing some kind of alternative endgame content, given the small percentage of players who have the time to commit to raiding and all that entails.
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#26 Feb 06 2016 at 5:38 PM Rating: Good
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Especially because yoshida said as plain as day they couldn't offer tiers of content because they have no one to develop it.

But they can offer tiers of content with this system.


Okieday,
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