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Housing ReclamationFollow

#127 Nov 10 2015 at 10:26 AM Rating: Excellent
Thayos wrote:
To be honest, I don't even use my house. I think my wife would have fun with it, but she barely plays.

Thinking maybe I should try to find a FC on my server that needs one. It's just a small, but someone else could actually get real use from it. For me, it's just a cosmetic piece. My personal needs are all taken care of by the FC house.

What SE should do is have some kind of incentive program to encourage people with personal houses to sell their real estate to FCs.


There's already an incentive and it's called gil.

The complaint from many FC is that the personal house "land flippers" are charging 3-4 times the price that was paid, so a small FC that might have been able to come up with 2-4 million gil will struggle to meet the 15 million gil asking price.

It's just like the real world, the issue isn't necessarily one of housing availability, it's affordable housing availability. Like a monopoly game, once all the land is bought up you have to start negotiating with the person who bought the property in the first half of the game, and they are never going to charge just face value. (I walloped everyone at the Swarm Girls Gamer Weekend II at Monopoly using my "Death Wall" strategy; negotiated an early trade with someone to get all the greens and blues, giving them monopolies on cheaper properties, so that by endgame I could afford the rents when I landed on their hotels, but they went bankrupt the first time they landed on one of mine. Those FC members will never play Monopoly with me again after that.)
#128 Nov 10 2015 at 10:35 AM Rating: Excellent
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There's already an incentive and it's called gil.


I know that, Cat!

What I mean is it would be cool if there were some kind of official mechanism for people with personal houses to be able to pinpoint and sell to actual FCs with no hassle. Like, I just hopped onto the Hyperion official forum page to see if any FCs were posting about needing houses, and I couldn't find any on the first page. Would be nice if there were an easier way to consider doing this without any hassles, needs to negotiate, etc.
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#129 Nov 10 2015 at 11:46 AM Rating: Decent
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Thayos wrote:
To be honest, I don't even use my house. I think my wife would have fun with it, but she barely plays.

Thinking maybe I should try to find a FC on my server that needs one. It's just a small, but someone else could actually get real use from it. For me, it's just a cosmetic piece. My personal needs are all taken care of by the FC house.

What SE should do is have some kind of incentive program to encourage people with personal houses to sell their real estate to FCs.


Edited, Nov 10th 2015 8:15am by Thayos


Yea they need more incentive to use a house. Tesee does use it allot because she stables her choco and gardens. She is always tinkering with the house making new stuff or rearranging stuff. She does that in real life too lol, I dont know how many times and the living room is rearranged. You know gardening is extremely complicated too..

I dont think this fixes the problem, allot of people houses are empty but they just dont use them. These people will just make sure they visit their house now it does not make them actually use the house. I think it is the wrong way to go and SE should give people a reason to use a house. Not only that it aint going to make a dent in the demand for housing. I do understand if someone has stopped paying their subscription and has not been back in months.


I mean you charge a fortune for a house and dont give anyone a reason to use a house. Since there is no reason to use a house you take it away from them because the are not..

It is what it is. I am happy we can actually share the house now.
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#130 Nov 10 2015 at 12:08 PM Rating: Excellent
A lot of houses are just straight up abandoned. I fully expect that at least 2 of them are going to get nuked out of my immediate neighbors. The FCs failed; there's only a few characters or even one character left in it who is the FC leader, and the characters themselves are abandoned. The players MIGHT come back when they start getting warning emails, but it's doubtful.
#131 Nov 10 2015 at 12:22 PM Rating: Decent
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Catwho wrote:
A lot of houses are just straight up abandoned. I fully expect that at least 2 of them are going to get nuked out of my immediate neighbors. The FCs failed; there's only a few characters or even one character left in it who is the FC leader, and the characters themselves are abandoned. The players MIGHT come back when they start getting warning emails, but it's doubtful.


Thats 2 houses, their are thousands that want houses. That is ok if someone quit the game or a defunct FC but it affect people still playing.
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#132 Nov 10 2015 at 12:36 PM Rating: Excellent
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Thats 2 houses, their are thousands that want houses. That is ok if someone quit the game or a defunct FC but it affect people still playing.


That's why I think SE should find creative ways to encourage people to sell their private homes to FCs. That would seem to be the best use of the game's limited resources.

On the other hand, we also need to see how the 45-day turnover period pans out. Catwho is right in that many houses will probably come available once this first 45-day period expires. Anyone who has quit the game or only wants to sub once every three/four months will lose their houses. And once that land hits the market, people who don't plan on being regular subscribers won't be waiting to pounce on those plots. So not only will lots of land hit the market, but I doubt there will be as many players rushing to buy up real estate.

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#133 Nov 10 2015 at 3:11 PM Rating: Good
Nashred wrote:
Catwho wrote:
A lot of houses are just straight up abandoned. I fully expect that at least 2 of them are going to get nuked out of my immediate neighbors. The FCs failed; there's only a few characters or even one character left in it who is the FC leader, and the characters themselves are abandoned. The players MIGHT come back when they start getting warning emails, but it's doubtful.


Thats 2 houses, their are thousands that want houses. That is ok if someone quit the game or a defunct FC but it affect people still playing.

That's 2 houses out of what, half a dozen or so in the "immediate neighbors"? Extrapolate that to all areas of the ward, then to wards and subdivisions and all three cities and that's a LOT of houses.
#134 Nov 10 2015 at 3:26 PM Rating: Excellent
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That's 2 houses out of what, half a dozen or so in the "immediate neighbors"? Extrapolate that to all areas of the ward, then to wards and subdivisions and all three cities and that's a LOT of houses.


It's very unlikely you have enough data to actually make that extrapolation with any accuracy at all.
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#135 Nov 10 2015 at 5:47 PM Rating: Good
Archmage Callinon wrote:
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That's 2 houses out of what, half a dozen or so in the "immediate neighbors"? Extrapolate that to all areas of the ward, then to wards and subdivisions and all three cities and that's a LOT of houses.


It's very unlikely you have enough data to actually make that extrapolation with any accuracy at all.


Yup, there's way too many variables to account for. I'm on Balmung, and my area is always active. You constantly see people outside of their house or in the area. I'd imagine an RP server would probably have a much higher rate of retention vs some other ones. We really won't know until it hits, and my guess is most plots will be bought up in seconds bringing us back to square 1.
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#136 Nov 10 2015 at 7:11 PM Rating: Excellent
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and my guess is most plots will be bought up in seconds bringing us back to square 1.


Can't think of anything I'd rather be doing on Christmas morning.

Nice scheduling there.
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#137 Nov 10 2015 at 7:15 PM Rating: Excellent
Well, at least you'll probably have Xmas morning off, so no excuses for missing out!

If you have kids, just tell them Santa got busy.
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#138 Nov 10 2015 at 9:30 PM Rating: Good
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Archmage Callinon wrote:
Quote:
That's 2 houses out of what, half a dozen or so in the "immediate neighbors"? Extrapolate that to all areas of the ward, then to wards and subdivisions and all three cities and that's a LOT of houses.


It's very unlikely you have enough data to actually make that extrapolation with any accuracy at all.


To be honest though, outside of RP servers or EXTREMELY casual servers, there's tons of abandoned lots because housing serves no purpose to people, gameplay wise, which is why it has more of a hold in RP communities because they make their own content and don't need the game to actually provide usable content. If housing were like any other MMO including XI, if it gave bonuses to your gameplay, housing would never be abandoned.

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#139 Nov 10 2015 at 9:49 PM Rating: Good
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To be honest though, outside of RP servers or EXTREMELY casual servers, there's tons of abandoned lots because housing serves no purpose to people, gameplay wise


That's why I didn't bother with it. It might have been cool to decorate a room if it didn't cost me a substantial amount of gil to have one. And that for no other reason than quick ventures shower me in furniture and roofs. I could've built a house entirely out of roofs at this point.

But I understand it's important to other people and that's perfectly fine.
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#140 Nov 11 2015 at 8:00 AM Rating: Excellent
Yeah, I don't think much real estate is going to be freed up on Balmung or any of the other legacy servers, or Gilgamesh either.

On Lamia though? I expect 1/3 of the houses in my neighborhood to go poof eventually, and perhaps even more in some wards. Mist, I think, will have fewer houses lost to land reclamation since it's more popular to begin with. Goblet will have comparatively more. Lavender Beds will be in the middle.
#141 Nov 12 2015 at 8:04 AM Rating: Decent
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Nashred wrote:
Theonehio wrote:
Better servers goes a long way as a first step regardless though.


Exactly or housing servers. I like the subdivision idea and having neighbors.


Montsegurnephcreep wrote:
Hyrist wrote:
Theonehio wrote:
Better servers goes a long way as a first step regardless though.


Agreed. Sometimes I wish SE would hand Yoshida a blank check.


I still believe, even at this point, SE hasn't realized the game is successful. It'll eventually hit them, just not sure when.


Might be too late by the time they figure it out.

Problems is after loosing millions for years SE had to somehow finance their debt and those people want their money back and they dont care about the future of some games.

But anyway this is not the fix. All that is going happen is they yank some housing away from people that worked hard for their house. They give it to some new players that use it for a month and never comeback just like now. Tell me how this stops the problem with people not using their houses?

They need to fix housing and give it a purpose so people use their houses and subdivisions. They are empty and will always be empty the way it is now.

There is so much potential with housing instead it some side thing that has no purpose what so ever other than a little decorating.

Edited, Oct 26th 2015 3:22pm by Nashred


Square-Enix, as a company, being doing poorly for more than a few years. Square-Enix has performed somewhat better last 12-24 months (a positive earnings per share). However, return of equity and investment (6~7%; 10+% would have been nice) is poor by absolute value and in comparison with (much larger) peer companies (Activision Blizzard, Hasbro or Bandai Namco).

I think Square-Enix consider their main business is also in mobile gaming. Yet their mobile games don't last very long. I don't think most mobile games last long at all; even candy crushing or shooting green pigs has lost steam. I haven't looked at SE financial reports, but it is possible that recent improvements is only due to FFXIV doing well. If your company relies in just one product that you know won't last forever to make money, you are playing with fire.

The story isn't all that different if you follow Konami as well. (And Kojima is a bye bye and Snake is really done for good!)

Edited, Nov 12th 2015 9:06am by scchan
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#142 Nov 12 2015 at 10:58 AM Rating: Decent
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I just dont think there is that many freed up at least not enough to make a dent in demand.

Just because a house has nothing in it or no one visits it does not mean that person quit the game. I think the older subdivisions probably will have more freed up . I know ours has a few houses that look abandoned but the owner does show up once in a while, now all that is going to happen it they will make sure they do more often, they aint going to do anything with it.

I think WITH the ease of money even adding more subdivisions is not going to make a dent in demand.

I myself am thinking of getting another house that is bigger in another city. What else is there to do with my money even if there is no need for a house?

Edited, Nov 12th 2015 12:38pm by Nashred
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#143 Nov 12 2015 at 11:15 AM Rating: Excellent
Square Enix's losses (and Konami's) were partially because Japan cracked down on arcade machine gambling (e.g. pachinko) and their sales were basically halved or even quartered. It used to be that arcades would rotate in new machines every 3-6 months to keep people interested. The machines are incredibly elaborate; there was one that had something like 2 hours of cutscene animation for a series built into it, so you'd need to consistently feed it money AND win just to see the next episode. Once you finally saw that final scene and you were freed, you could stop playing and not gamble any more until a new machine came along that you wanted to play.

The law changed in 2011 so that it was much more difficult for pachinko parlors to advertise or acquire new machines. (I've been trying to find a citation to link to, but I haven't had any luck.)

The console games division has no one to blame but themselves for their struggles in 2011+ but Square Enix the Corporation also had some extra dead weight to deal with in the arcade games division. (In the meantime, mobile games made money.) Normally, one arm would be successful enough to outweigh the losses, but 2013 was a particularly bad year for both their console games and their arcade games.
#144 Nov 25 2015 at 1:15 PM Rating: Decent
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Catwho wrote:
Square Enix's losses (and Konami's) were partially because Japan cracked down on arcade machine gambling (e.g. pachinko) and their sales were basically halved or even quartered. It used to be that arcades would rotate in new machines every 3-6 months to keep people interested. The machines are incredibly elaborate; there was one that had something like 2 hours of cutscene animation for a series built into it, so you'd need to consistently feed it money AND win just to see the next episode. Once you finally saw that final scene and you were freed, you could stop playing and not gamble any more until a new machine came along that you wanted to play.

The law changed in 2011 so that it was much more difficult for pachinko parlors to advertise or acquire new machines. (I've been trying to find a citation to link to, but I haven't had any luck.)

The console games division has no one to blame but themselves for their struggles in 2011+ but Square Enix the Corporation also had some extra dead weight to deal with in the arcade games division. (In the meantime, mobile games made money.) Normally, one arm would be successful enough to outweigh the losses, but 2013 was a particularly bad year for both their console games and their arcade games.


It is not just SE and Konami. Sega-Sammy has the same panchiko problem as well; for all practical purposes, Sammy is a Panchiko company before the merger with Sega. Quite a few other "otaku" business (even Toei Animation that makes mostly children shows) also involve in licensing their brands to make Panchiko machines, but I don't think they are as exposed as Konami and Sega-Sammy.

To be honest with you, there are some businesses in this world that we won't miss at all. Sorry if it is offensive or you have a specific political leaning, but the world is a better place with the decline of panchiko, Macau/Vegas gambling, tobacco, and US consumer gun companies. It is just immoral to make money by ruining the finances and health of other people. Some people can control how much they gamble, drink and smoke, but there are people just can't.

Edited, Nov 25th 2015 2:15pm by scchan
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A designer knows he has achieved perfection,
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but when there is nothing left to take away.
- Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
#145 Nov 25 2015 at 3:35 PM Rating: Good
I don't disagree. Konami also makes a huge number of slot machines and other gambling machines for the American market - of the 200-300 machines I saw the last time I was in Vegas, they were almost all Konami.

I found slot machines so boring. So boring. I have more fun playing Cookie Clicker. I spent my $5 free starter voucher and decided it wasn't worth my time or attention, so I lost no money at Vegas.
#146 Nov 25 2015 at 4:45 PM Rating: Good
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Catwho wrote:
I don't disagree. Konami also makes a huge number of slot machines and other gambling machines for the American market - of the 200-300 machines I saw the last time I was in Vegas, they were almost all Konami.

I found slot machines so boring. So boring. I have more fun playing Cookie Clicker. I spent my $5 free starter voucher and decided it wasn't worth my time or attention, so I lost no money at Vegas.


Oh my mother used to go to Canadian casinos once per month (I am not sure if she still goes), and slot machines were the only thing she would play. I myself had gambled a little bit before. I had been at Vegas and played blackjack and poker there. When I moved away from Florida and tow my stuff to my mother's Canadian home (I now work in the UK), I stopped briefly in front of Churchill Downs to just take pictures. It wasn't a race day when I visited so I couldn't bet nor take picture of the horses haha. Nowadays, I find more satisfaction with my money through stocks and charity. Following stocks and charity actually taught me many things from reading financial statements of public companies to the latest medicine and projects that get deployed in the field to help the less fortunate. It is far more interesting and educational than gambling (even I have never gambled big).

Anyway, if I have to choose between slot machines to say blackjack or poker, I think I will enjoy the latter more. At least I can pretend that I used my brain if I win. The house always wins for any games against it. Even for house-assisted player vs. player poker (the house only deals), the house still wins by taking some chips off the table per game. Slot machines are not only boring, I will probably get dizzy with all that flashing and spinning haha.


Edited, Nov 25th 2015 5:48pm by scchan
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- George Sand

A designer knows he has achieved perfection,
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#147 Dec 02 2015 at 11:23 AM Rating: Decent
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Well - Look at it this way:

The "Free Login" campaign (that's only a finite amount of time...for some reason) allows you to get your plot on "active" status again until 3.2. So SE still extended the time artificially.

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#148 Dec 09 2015 at 12:31 PM Rating: Decent
I want to chime in here (at length, thanks to the flu) because I've been following this for awhile and even after a couple years housing still feels in the 'beta' stage. Also just having indulged in Archeage specifically for what turned out to be a frustrating and absurd approach to property, I'm already embittered and happy to try something else.

First of all, it isn't true that all houses are useless/purely aesthetic. Just personal houses (unless you want to garden or raise chocobos, craft at home, etc.). FC houses can be upgraded to provide daily passives for every member (20% cheaper travel, 10% more EXP and so on) and provide the platform for airship missions (though there may be a public platforms I don't know about). Being able to warp directly to where you get a sleeping bonus also isn't non-trivial when you have to log off abruptly, which is a small perk even for personal housing. In general, with the exception of the Grand companies (hunts) and class guilds, housing districts are already as useful as the main cites themselves. In fact I'd love to see the ability for players who've mastered their given class to turn their house into a class guild house where the classes and jobs are available. It could make these communities viable alternatives to the guild houses we otherwise waste time running to. But I digress.

Archeage's biggest problem, in my opinion, wasn't the land shortage which directed many people's outrage, it was the inability to own property without founding a structure on it first that would still need to be constructed before the site could be used. The expense of construction, plus the large amount of speculation by those with no intention of using the property themselves, meant that there would be whole towns of unfinished houses with an active homeowner in between. Worst of all, if you wanted to change your mind and build something else, for a brief moment the land would become available for anyone to place down a structure of their own and thus acquire the spot. It also meant that when the properties of inactive members was scheduled for demolition, the way to acquire it was to show up with all the other people who had scouted it (I used to sell the locations of demolitions) and then participate in this absurd game of lay down a phantom structure in error, wait for the house to get attacked so it would begin collapsing, and then hope your ping adequately indicates when you can build, or that your claim will be received first on the server. XIV doesn't have that issue, but did nothing to address shortage (which should have been easily calculable based on the amount of gil on that server). I'll probably return to the concept of a land rush after Christmas, after we see how that turns out.

In some ways, it's good that housing isn't integral to the core gameplay (as it was in Archeage) so that the housing market can straighten itself out. You need housing turnover of some kind to recycle active players in an area. The problem is in the consequence for the inactive player. The developers explicitly reiterated they weren't making housing subscription-based, but 45 (35?) days is blatantly a subscription schedule, plus a couple weeks to scrounge up $10 you weren't planning to spend. Thanks a lot. I already got screwed out of legacy pricing for not reading up on the game leading up to ARR - even though I subscribed over a year after pre-ordering and 2 of the 3 months before 1.0 went under. Every year I subscribe now costs me $24 a year more than it costs someone who only played the game those requisite 90 days. If I happened to have bought a house last year then stopped my subscription, then not read about the change in policy, I'd have to hope the demolition email didn't end up thrown with all of SE's promotional spam. It's absolutely asinine to simply take away the privilege, and at worst take all your items if you don't pick them up over the consequent month. It's the sort of bait and switch that should shed casual subscribers.

Also, casual subscribers are not necessarily casual players. If so, they're so casual that they reached max level and did enough endgame, crafting, or market speculation that they could have millions of gil in the first place. 3.2 million gil (at the very least) does not come from playing the game to 50, and takes a fair amount of advanced play, so that unless you're on a small server where some houses could depreciate in price, only advanced players or organized groups have bought houses. And if they happen to play other games, or heaven forbid have real responsibilities, they're going to drop their sub from time to time. Now, they're being held hostage by what at first seemed like their reward for all the time invested.

So I have two ideas, because that's what message boards or for.

If there truly is a technical limitation to expanding the housing, and the developers, like Archeage's, aren't just stalling until the players actually interested in houses are separated from those who aren't, then charge subscribers for the ability to own a house. I spend an extra $2 for retainers, and would happily spend that money to have a house. No upfront cost for the undeveloped land because it's built into the game on the backs of those who want to utilize the feature. Everyone who hasn't paid can still explore these areas, or utilize free company housing which is already fairly reasonable and attainable (400-500 instanced rooms per FC house for 300,000 gil each). It funds the additional server demands, maybe even development specific to housing. (You can understand the demand for housing if you understand that gameplay in The Sims or Farmville or Minecraft is widely appealing.) This also provides an incentive for membership in FCs, specifically those that pay for estates, ideally with the ability to grow your fortress bigger than your rivals can.

The second idea might be even more controversial, but addresses the issue of derelict, unused properties. The subscription-cycle limit has got to go, but in favor of something that still addresses houses that go unused for months or years. Certainly $2/month buys, at the very least, goodwill, and at the very best a permanent technical solution for how to provide servers full of player housing. But it still does nothing to settle the qualms of players who use their neighborhood and would like actual neighbors. The role player in me says the fair way to do it would be rent.

Even without implementing extra fees, I think a kind of in-game rent would go a long way. Don't ever use your house? Rent it to someone else for a pre-agreed period no shorter than 30 days, or with a payment structure that transfers ownership once all payments have been made. A home Mogage, if you will. Subscribed players could charge whatever they wanted, as they might still choose to use the house at some point but consider a certain revenue worth the exchange. And while renting you can still room at your free company or the inns (which should also be selling instanced rooms).

On the other hand, if you bought a house but can't use it because you're not subscribed, a rental would automatically be made available at a flat rate determined by the class of the location. If you don't login for 60 days, your furniture gets put into a *permanently available* storage, and the house becomes available for another player or Free Company to rent in your absence, for no period shorter than 30 days, and with the opportunity to purchase the spot outright after a year. If the owner isn't back by then, they don't lose the privilege of having an estate, just having an estate in that exact spot. But rather than the prospect of having to start over with no furniture because it expired, less gil, and no available plots, they'd be returning to a big chunk of extra gil and the ability to go rent a place or pay your own $2 to jump back in again.

But wait, if you can use real world money to generate in-game gil...

When I first started thinking about how to fix housing, because I badly want it, I hadn't considered the financial position or the transitions for the industry that Catwho and others have mentioned. If Square-Enix is already in the business of borderline gambling at the arcade, the real money market must frustrate them because they're not the ones capitalizing on it. The way I see it is that Final Fantasy is an institution, and that a lot of the reason to play this mmo over another isn't always about gameplay, but its unique character. For me the most alluring mmo is one with an emergent player economy and some degree of player-generated content. Housing as it is scratches that itch, but only until I face the notion of spending $140+ per year just to keep my place to do those things.

Many people want this to work and would be willing to pay for it. Either housing is completely through a cash shop, or through a $2 fee, give us some alternative whose solution isn't just to blow it up on Christmas.

(Added a poll: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1UbFPWefTZ7VWu0hhhBH2osNZImgbStaaNkqk-zGKwWM/viewform?usp=send_form )

Edited, Dec 9th 2015 2:55pm by lowesox
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