I finally won't have to raid to endgame!Follow

I can show up, just not consistently enough to warrant a static that runs 2-3 times a week for 2-3 hours at a time. I work 12 hour shifts, 2 days, 2 nights, 5 off. Typically those 4 shifts, I get zero gaming done. If I do, it's after my 2nd day and it's not a long play session because I'm usually half asleep. So with this schedule, I never get the same day off from week to week, meaning 7 other people would either have to a) rotate their raid schedule accordingly or b) replace me the days I can't show up. Neither of these is fair to the other people.

You throw in anyone who does sports (with a non set weekly schedule) or whatever other hobby is out there, and it's easy to see why most statics disintegrate over time. That's why XI was so good for me, it had massive flexibility. Those who frequently showed up geared in no time, those like me took a year + to gear. I think people ARE willing to show up to events like this. WoD, LotA, etc have been imo successful. The main issue with them, they're really not challenging. I also get that the game may need a massive overhaul to even cater to this style of raiding so I have 0 expectations of it ever happening. I've come to terms that I'll probably never raid again in this game and that's fine.

Just because I don't have a set weekly schedule, doesn't mean I don't have huge amounts of time to play on my days off. So I know, this game probably isn't for me (in terms of end game), and that's fine. This almost goes back to what Hio was saying, there were good things in XI they could of stolen. You didn't need to steal from it word for word, but at least take it and improve on it.

As for how to make large scale events challenging within this system? No idea hah. There's a reason I'm not the game development business.

I was one of the full time weekly workers who helped all the time, got the gear faster, while most would show up for the big loot nights only. That worked in XI because the concept of pop farming lesser things to earn NM pops was all over FFXI, which gave members something to work towards while the rest of members where missing in action.

Won't work in XIV without farming runs, unless SE masters the skill of power scaling to group size and levels. I have yet to see any game get it right completely.


Won't work in XIV without farming runs, unless SE masters the skill of power scaling to group size and levels so all things are difficult. I have yet to see any game get it right completely.

High memory based, perfect execution with no smaller scale/easier farming for big bosses, required mmos are fighting an uphill battle from the outset. There is possible lag even if one player does perfect, now throw 20-60 players in that equation and watch disaster happen, then top that off with asking 60 players to show up 2-3 times a week at a set time? It is not happening chief.

Let me be clear, I have no issue at all with adding easy, large scale content. I just don't understand why it's being suggested that it's a viable replacement for hardmode raids. If I'm a fan of difficult content and you replace that content with easy content I have no reason to be there at all, much less to return... so it seems counter-intuitive to me.

Just a few weeks ago the suggestion was made to trim down the raid size because it was too hard to collect a group of 8. Now all of a sudden we're trying to expand raid sizes. You'll have to excuse me if I keep prying with questions, but I'm genuinely interested in hearing how people think issues should/could be addressed.


I'm perplexed myself which is why I'm trying to get an answer.


Precisely the reason why I don't think it's worth the trouble. WoW was the closest I've seen to pulling it off, but you were still restricted somewhat in the composition of your group...

2 tanks, 2 healers, 3 dps
2 tanks, 3 healers, 5 dps
2 tanks, 4 healers, 9 dps

You had a little play in swapping a healer for a dps or vice versa, but whatever you sacrificed had to be made up for elsewhere.

Take an extra dps instead of a healer? Healers are in hardmode and dps are bored because they have to hold back. Take the healer over the dps? Healers are bored and dps have to squeeze every bit of damage out to beat enrage. I honestly feel like the only way to balance a raid is to have a static(no pun intended) raid size and composition and go from there. Much the same way that dynamis was, even the flex raids in WoW became easier and easier the more people you added.


Edited, Nov 8th 2015 5:43pm by FilthMcNasty

Scaling ultimately requires some sort of expectation in roles and how they play from both the players and devs.

Tank joins: Slight HP increase, moderate increase to ST damage.
Support joins: Slight HP increase, moderate increase to AoE damage.
DPS joins: High HP increase, minimal increase to ST and AoE damage.

These increases should generally factor appropriate, but not perfect gear for the encounter. Same with whatever rotations, should that be a thing for the game. Mainly, the point is for mob attributes to shift to accommodate the variable party/role size. Do nothing, but have a lot of tanks and they'll probably never die. Spike damage enough and you're eventually going to want more than one healer covering them. As for DPS, too many without adjusting mob HP and they just melt, but the goal here should be to keep the time to kill the mob roughly similar and not exponentially higher, either. More healers is similar to tanks in that if you have too many, nobody is likely to die. This is why you need to make the mobs a little more dangerous so you promote attentiveness and delegation of support needs. The slight HP increase tanks and healers bring also runs under the assumption they'll either be doing some damage themselves or bringing (de)buffs to help others along. Either way, it's a process that hinges on the player baseline.

In terms of role flexibility, Rift probably is the most variable, but it still falls prey to the efficiency beast. Honestly, I'd like to see some game out there where you can learn anything from a class and hodgepodge it together, gear choices then further enhancing your selections. Yeah, it'd still fall prey to cookie cutter syndrome, but things become a bit more hazy in who does what just because they have a specific symbol by their name. People who love to make snap judgments would probably hate this kind of system, but in the spirit of progression, it leaves an avenue of always being able to improve your character somehow, even if it's just more levels within a skill itself.

https://pantheonmmo.com/

As far as I know, if you loved the type of mmo similar to FFXI or the original Everquest. There is only one modern mmo coming out to try and bring that type of game and it is crowdfunded, so don't know how well it will end up. I am cautiously excited.

Some extra info:
http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/1006/Pantheon-Rise-of-the-Fallen.html

Edited, Nov 8th 2015 8:24pm by sandpark

This. 99% of the Dynamis shells, serious ones, adhered to the website (usually Dynamisbums) scheduling and their own rules as stated. The only "you online? you get here." was HNM. Otherwise if you're online and didn't show, you simply didn't want a chance at loot.



This is why it was generally found in the HNMLS scene more than anything (since you do want every hand available, especially if something went wrong.)

Has nothing to do with being in a hardcore raid mindset. Anyone who's actually played FFXI and been in Dynamis linkshells knows full the leaders almost always had to register their shells on the universal calendar so people didn't overlap/take time slots because Dynamis wasn't a true instance.

Nothing to do with hardcore raiding. You brought up HNMs before, that was more in line with XI's "hardcore" raiding, since you had to wait windows that lasted sometimes 24+ hrs depending if it was pulled out of a decent timeframe (usually if Japanese gets the claim.) However it just seems you were trying to find a reason to toss in another attack my way, which is cool - but for one who claimed to have played XI, not sure how being considerate to other linkshells is "hardcore raiding."

Then again, it does seem we have different definitions of hardcore.

Yeah. Both dynamis shells I was in had loose attendance policies. If you didn't show up you just didn't earn any points for that run. It was in your best interest to show up every time because more participation = more chances at getting gear, but no one was getting kicked out of the shell for skipping out on a run.

I found dynamis/sky style events to be far more accommodating for players who couldn't necessarily make every run. Also more welcoming to new players who haven't even dipped their feet into end game than most "end game" content in FF14. Far less structure across multiple aspects made it much easier to just go and do content without worrying about meeting every required check mark to be able to even participate. As long as you met the basic requirements you could bring in a couple friends without having to run them through a check list of questions to see if they can even participate.

In FF14 raid content, there's rigid member requirements that force a set number of people. 7- friends will need to pick at least one person up, 9+ will have to leave at least one out. Contrast with FFXI where I've farmed in sky pop items when literally 3 people showed up or had people healing outside of our alliance because we had too many to fit in one.

In FF14 raid content you need to make sure you have an ideal or close to ideal role setup. In dynamis/sky all you need is to hit the basics and beyond that you are free to bring in whatever you like. Was it always ideal? Of course not, but it was easily doable and did nothing to hinder the group.

In FF14, every time you bring in an undergeared, or less skilled, or less experienced player, you have to take into account that if they aren't able to do the funky dance correctly there is a good chance that this member can and will solely wipe your entire group multiple times. In sky or dynamis, a new player, having seen no guides or videos or having already completed the content before, could walk in and learn the ropes without killing everyone because they either turned around, didn't turn around, moved when they shouldn't have, didn't move when they should have, or any number of other group wiping mechanics.

There really wasn't that much you needed to consider when allowing new friends to come along. If you regularly run sky with 15 and your black mage says "Hey I have two friends who want to try end game, can they try coming with us?" NONE of the questions you'd have to screen them through to participate in FF14 content need to be asked here. If they can't make every run, if they aren't the best or most well geared players, if they're a lol-drg and lol-pup (edit: ZAM filters ), they can still come and play and they are likely to have only a positive at best or neutral at worst contribution to the group even on their very first run.

Edited, Nov 9th 2015 9:15am by Susanoh

Filth, you're the only person in this thread who is talking about the runs themselves being on a schedule... that isn't what any of the rest of us are talking about.

In dynamis, not all members were required to show up to scheduled runs in order for the group to make progress. And this was also true in other aspects of FFXI's endgame, as well. I was personally in different endgame linkshells that did dynamis and sky (and limbus, too), and I dinked around for awhile in one that even did ground kings. Oh, and just remembered, I was also in an Einherjar linkshell with more relaxed standards, but that just didn't hold my interest.

If you want to find FFXI content that has a closer participation dynamic to FFXIV's hardcore raids, then you need to look to something like salvage. That was something on my server that most people tended to do in small statics, rather than gravitate toward large salvage linkshells (not sure if those even existed on my server). However, learning the various floors of salvage was much easier than mastering XIV's hardcore raids, so it was easier to plug and play pickup members if need be.

Otherwise, much of XIV's endgame content allowed for groups to progress with casual/midcore participation requirements.



Exactly.

There's simply no denying that XIV's endgame has been bereft of this kind of group-oriented content -- until now. Hopefully Exploratory Missions start filling that void!

Edited, Nov 9th 2015 8:11am by Thayos

Yep - All of the groups I talked to and helped (omg networking!) stated a lot of their statics fell apart because they got fed up with A3S's difficulty, because despite what people who don't raid want to believe, not every raider is "hardcore" and still cleared binding coil, but are stuck on Alex 3 savage because..well..Coil wasn't that difficult..so A3S is significantly harder than what MOST raiders are used to.

So finding 7 others who can consistently play at that level on usually optional content, is pretty huge, especially on NA/EU servers it appears. Logically speaking, if they created Alexander like Dynamis, it should be HARDER so even if you overflow, all that means is you're making it easier simply due to the numbers - But it being designed more people in mind is a good thing. I think that's where current alliance raids fall apart - They're designed for 8 people but due to mechanics, you need the others. Like all bosses you end up lowmanning it anyway because a good chunk of the people tend to be pushing up daisies anyway.

So Filth is indeed correct - Raiding is where it all comes to light because the game makes you actually assert yourself compared to other content you can just..skirt by. Look at Titan HM these days - You can finish it off with 1 healer and 1 tank, which it tends to come down due thanks to people who refuse to dodge or simply..just can't play. I stopped believing "lag!" as an excuse when SE got through the level3.net issues.