Yep, but regardless of being a "fan-community" doesn't mean you have to kiss Yoshi's ***. Zam has been a fan community for ages and I can promise you back during XI and WoW prime era you would see PLENTY of people not kissing ***, but instead being open with criticizing or finding what's wrong. I've said before, It's amazing they relaunched XIV in a quick time and it's fine for the style of MMO it is - but I played DQX, the MMO Yoshi was lead designer for, so I know there's so much more that could be done and that's saying something because DQX isn't the most complex game out there.
Take the current BST change - Despite being an obvious change because people were using BSTs to circumvent newer content (because the pets are OP and you avoid all damage whatsoever) they changed it so BSTs have to take a risk, thus people went back to using varied setups instead of BST only setups. Go to the official forums, people are open about wanting SE to revert it or change it, either because they want the easy button back, or because it's what they enjoy. Look at that..someone who enjoys BST..hates a change that happened..and is open about it, yet still enjoy the game and job they play...but are criticizing it..? See it's possible to be critical about something you enjoy without having to constantly praise it to prove you enjoy it.
That's why I feel XIV is in a bad spot, because instead of being honest and critical of the game, people would instead praise it and damn those who don't. Like thayos said, he plays what he feels does a better job at whatever he likes...no offense, but all that truthfully means, you're easily accepting even if something is done bad if you feel XIV has done anything better than the current MMOs. Especially GW2, it has all the basic systems right, it's grindy as all hell..but if we're to compare..the only difference between the two in that sense is that XIV's grind is lighter because even Yoshi stated they feel the game truly doesn't start until end-game, so it makes sense to shoot you there. In GW2, level syncing lets you keep your high level "OP" job with all of its gear and skills and still balances it out, in XIV, you completely lose everything except a few stats here and there - Why? XIV is heavily linear in design. This is why Scholars absolutely break low level dungeons because they were not designed with a fairy being there in mind, hence why Selene/Eos can solo heal every low-mid level dungeon.
Like I said, I tried to get so many to play this game who are used to other games and they couldn't do it PURELY because of how poorly XIV ARR does certain things. I won't even mention Heavensward in their experience since they didn't make it far, but when you can load up any of the F2P/Freemium Korean MMOs that has a better foundation..how do you justify P2P for this game that can barely handle the systems we have now? There's absolutely NO reason this game shouldn't have all the basics XI does and had done them better..not completely omitted or done worse. Considering Yoshi has went on record (even again recently) that they can't increase our character (nothing to do with consoles before anyone tries) without risk of the game proves they need to take time and redo the foundation..which is exactly what an expansion pack is supposed to do. Expand and Evolve the game.
GW2's expansion completely redid a lot of core system while adding onto it. Heavensward added flight. TERA's expansion redid certain dungeon progression design. XI's Adoulin introduced so many systems and even a completely different progression of end-game in only a year 1/2 as well as Rhapsodies introduced a way for people to catch up and even get started in this era of it..So even "negative" posts have a reason, because if all you do is praise, games get no where and developers feel they could get away with anything. Like I said, even on here, people were very open in critcizing Tanaka and Matsui, extremely open when Tanaka didn't constantly bend over for the players like Yoshi does. Hell even 1.x people were open in criticizing Tanaka when he wasn't even at fault, so why now, do people get afraid to criticize a game when looked at by anyone who's actually played many MMOs can see that it's way behind the curve?
It's like during XI's prime - People said if you want a critical view and non-bias'd view of XI, you go to BG forums even if it was for "the elitist", if you wanted fanboy gushing of it, you went to FFVault or FFXI Online. If you wanted general discussions usually more toward the fanboy side, you went to Killing Ifrit (though this one was weird) and Alla. This is why if you compare BG XIV's forum now, with this one, you have people who praise the game but you also have people aren't afraid to admit things are wrong. So in an ironic way, the forum people hated on (BG) is what you'd actually consider the only fan community, because fans of a game or game series are critical and accepting - you don't have to constantly praise to be a fan. You don't become a fan because you hate it, but a big problem ends up you have people who will immediately shrug you off or tell you you're wrong or "just quit." This is exactly why they readjusted craft/gather scrips, because it actually affected the people who don't do raid progression, so they got a taste of what raiders had to deal with...and didn't like it! So they essentially raised hell about it and boom..we got changes. Gating crafting was ridiculous and even happened because they felt since we already "accept" gates...why not gate crafting too? This is why I've said instead of wanting "Hardcore raids" to go away..instead..supplement or redo them, much like what XI did..by the same company and same team.
I didn't become a fan of FF games because I hated them or overly critical, which is why I don't find FFIV and FFVI that great and instead find FFV and FFIX the best offline FF games. I'd even throw XIII and XIII-2 up there because despite the gripes about them, the XIII games wee the most FF games we've had in a long time, it just rips your nostalgia out of you and realize without an overworld, all FF games are just as linear and poorly narrated, because most games, ESPECIALLY VI, you had a ton of backtracking and optional side areas to even get the full story.
That's why in the end, I find the route HW take is troubling and does nothing to fix the actual problems the game has. More content is always great, but when you play prorgessively, you're honestly about to tread dangerous waters unless they make ilvl changes to Savage Alexander gear, or there will honestly be no reason to run any of the "hard content" in 3.2/3.3 if they're going to just hand out the same tier of gear with potential better stats for far less trouble and even now crafted gear will finally be on par with other gear, so...you don't have to be a "fanboy" or "hater" to see this is a very, very delicate situation that can go extremely poorly in a blink of an eye if done wrong. Whether you hate raiding or not, for as long as I've been on Balmung which is barely a month, I can honestly see that this game truthfully does have a HUGE community that cares for progression and Balmung is really it's own little world - so if **** hits the fan so to speak, Balmung would be the only community and if people felt the 30-60k people playing 1.x isn't enough to "keep it around"..how would you feel about the same or even less playing XIV if they make a huge mistake that pisses off a lot of people?
Whether you're casual, mid or "hardcore", if an MMO ends up with a fault component that's crucial to it, it's never a good time. XIV community is far more accepting than other MMO communities, but in reality, even the most hardcore fanboys I knew on OF have been more realistic in their approach to the game because after 2 years..what honestly has changed? If there's more midcore people..by now we should have midcore content and even midlevel content - but we don't. We have wasted content (Story Mode) and optional forced mode (Savage Alexander), they need to seriously adapt what every other MMO does including XI and simply design dungeons/raids with tier based changes because Alexander 1 proves they can adjust the layout and FFXI proves they can randomized dungeons in a set algorithm.
They just..have to do it. They don't need to keep going in one extreme or the other even in a vertical progression game.
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#303
Nov 01 2015 at 10:59 AM
My biggest beef with this game right now is that it seems to be focused heavily on glamour above all else. Half the official forum threads are we want more mounts! Why can't I wear this clothes! Look how good I look with this race! The women have more options then men!
I agree, aesthetics are great and gear should look good, but when it becomes the main focus of raids? It gets annoying. Oh Void Ark is coming, that'll look great on my BLM! Not, damn, I want that gear to help me out with X event. Most content that gets released is purely for glamours sake which is beyond frustrating. Until they actually focus on making different content where gear gets utilized from event to event I doubt this game will change. I think back to XI where most gear looked like junk (most, not all), but what you were actually worried about was stats. Stats mean something in XIV, but generally speaking, no one gives a **** minus the hardcore raiders. So everyone just equips the highest ilvl and off they go.
But, like others have pointed out, XIV has established itself as this so far and it doesn't look like it's planning to change anytime soon. So I take it for what it is, play for 2-3 months at a time and break to play offline games.
I agree, aesthetics are great and gear should look good, but when it becomes the main focus of raids? It gets annoying. Oh Void Ark is coming, that'll look great on my BLM! Not, damn, I want that gear to help me out with X event. Most content that gets released is purely for glamours sake which is beyond frustrating. Until they actually focus on making different content where gear gets utilized from event to event I doubt this game will change. I think back to XI where most gear looked like junk (most, not all), but what you were actually worried about was stats. Stats mean something in XIV, but generally speaking, no one gives a **** minus the hardcore raiders. So everyone just equips the highest ilvl and off they go.
But, like others have pointed out, XIV has established itself as this so far and it doesn't look like it's planning to change anytime soon. So I take it for what it is, play for 2-3 months at a time and break to play offline games.
#304
Nov 01 2015 at 11:10 AM
Two things to two of our typical heavy critics.
First, I never stated that being a fan of the game meant always agreeing. I said specificly that people kept that in mind and kept the tone of the conversation leaning positive, so that issues of discussion and debate have greater lenght.
To Hio, I disagree, and that could apply to much of your statment.
Let's start in terms of changes. The changes of FFXIV have come in degrees and though methodry.
Tome gear and Raid Gear used to be flat out equivilant. Now, Tome Gear requires and upgrade that is first only available to Raiding. It then becomes an incentive to the more casual crowd in the 24 man group that lacks progression.
The advantage, and the curse, of the raider is that the top raiders achieve highest builds first, meaning they are done earlier in the patch cycle than others. To counter this, SE has created a wealth of distraction content, PvP, Housing, and Golden Saucer content, and Beast-men Dalies, for those seeking other things to do.
The major problems I see in this is simply refinement of execution (aside from my standing protest about how MMOs Handle Progression and Achievement) and order of release for certain content.
What you are seeing now, Hio, is nothing new for the game, nor is it anything wrong. SE has anticipated, and frankly worked towards, an activity cycle that luls towards the end of one patch. It literally comes back stronger each time as two years worth of research has shown. This time, we may actually lose some, but it's bad research to say one issue is the cause.
You're throwing everything and the kitchen sink into your argument saying that the game is dieing, yet again, this tone has been repeated for two years.
Here's something to chew on:
If "Nothing has changed" and the active subscriber base continued to go up, why should it change? The typical answer, the predictable answer, would be to fix issues for those hanging in on change, and to provide something new for those who are beginning to burn out on more of the same. Well, this patch has that something new, with changes to the methodry of how progression goes. Has the hard progression cap of 210 gone away? No. There's no reason for it to be, even with the extended patch cycle, because there are far, far more people who stopped short of 210, or even 200 to change that pacing.
Even if it was accepted as an argument that many many people worry about progression in this game - it's still a fractional minority of those people who are actually at the top of the progression bracket. Most of them looked at the currency grind, the endgame raid, and the extended time-frame before new content and went "You know what? I'll wait for Void Ark and Exploration Missions." And stopped short of completing their Esoterics set.
We also have to keep in mind that Summer is over. And that's a huge drop in activity for two major reasons. First and foremost, we're now getting into the thick of the Game Release season, people are stopping to play new games. I myself got into Tales of Zestiria and Destiny:The Taken King, because SE provided the perfect reason to take a break, clean the palette with some other games, and come back excited when the next patch comes out in nine days.
The second of course is obvious. School season has resumed and in full swing now. Collage and high school students alike are worried about major projects and midterms and likely will be distracted for a while. That means less game time. And with competing games of the non-mmo variety, that likely means that free time will go to other games a while.
How many times did we hear the slippery slope argument that FFXI was failing? You're sounding identical to those. Citing problems that are, primarily, a personal perspective issue that isn't reflected in the majority base, and using anecdotal evidence to try to prove it. You're going to be looking at all of those same populations jump up again (though not as much, remember the two major hampering components right now) once 3.1 comes out. And it likely will have more staying power, because those who don't want to raid, but still want progression, now have something they can enjoy.
Hardcore players again, do not suffer, because this is late in the patch cycle. They've had the opportunity to have their high end gear above others for quite a while now, more than usual. If a player is only every concerned by constantly getting stronger than others, then they can take a break until the bar is raised again. However, most likely what is going on at this point is most aren't at that level yet. They haven't completed their 210 set, and will now have more methods in which they can do so, so now they have more choices.
When they are complete, and they've beaten Savage, they can take a break from the game and enjoy the Game's Release season, catch up on the Pile of Shame, or even play some of the side games SE is providing for them in FFXIV.
Now, talking about being critical over Alexander in a bubble as a piece of content? Yes, Alexander could stand to be improved and be made more enticing. But pushing the progression so that they're even further ahead for something that's obscenely difficulty and unappealing may not be the answer. You're going to have to accept other proposals as acceptable alternatives in that vein. To be honest I think Story Mode was a good stepping stool, and will be needed anyways to gear up for Void Ark and Exploratory Missions, because they have caps higher than what's quickly accessible to someone just pulling a fresh sixty through content. (Altaholic, remember?) And with the weekly limit removed, that means it does become a good go-to for quickly catching up in gear. And at worst, put it on a roulette - that will help keep content populated.
I'm going to say this and I want you not to take it vindictively. Leave FFXIV. Don't involve yourself with it anymore, don't involve yourself with the community anymore. Close the book, and leave it behind you. You'll be happier. That's what I did with FFXI. It worked. I enjoyed myself in other games a lot more. I stopped fussing myself over something I say 'had potential' but ultimately did not feel like it met my expectations. I felt that it crushed the dreams of anyone that met my mindset, which I thought was common.
Do it, please, for your sake. I can debate with you to the ends of the earth when I'm feeling healthy enough to do so, but in truth, when someone constantly spews negativity. It sticks. So unless your true feelings are very, very very contrary to what you're putting down in posts here - then I can't conclude anything else then that FFXIV has become unhealthy for you. Stop and go do what you enjoy more.
First, I never stated that being a fan of the game meant always agreeing. I said specificly that people kept that in mind and kept the tone of the conversation leaning positive, so that issues of discussion and debate have greater lenght.
To Hio, I disagree, and that could apply to much of your statment.
Let's start in terms of changes. The changes of FFXIV have come in degrees and though methodry.
Tome gear and Raid Gear used to be flat out equivilant. Now, Tome Gear requires and upgrade that is first only available to Raiding. It then becomes an incentive to the more casual crowd in the 24 man group that lacks progression.
The advantage, and the curse, of the raider is that the top raiders achieve highest builds first, meaning they are done earlier in the patch cycle than others. To counter this, SE has created a wealth of distraction content, PvP, Housing, and Golden Saucer content, and Beast-men Dalies, for those seeking other things to do.
The major problems I see in this is simply refinement of execution (aside from my standing protest about how MMOs Handle Progression and Achievement) and order of release for certain content.
What you are seeing now, Hio, is nothing new for the game, nor is it anything wrong. SE has anticipated, and frankly worked towards, an activity cycle that luls towards the end of one patch. It literally comes back stronger each time as two years worth of research has shown. This time, we may actually lose some, but it's bad research to say one issue is the cause.
You're throwing everything and the kitchen sink into your argument saying that the game is dieing, yet again, this tone has been repeated for two years.
Here's something to chew on:
If "Nothing has changed" and the active subscriber base continued to go up, why should it change? The typical answer, the predictable answer, would be to fix issues for those hanging in on change, and to provide something new for those who are beginning to burn out on more of the same. Well, this patch has that something new, with changes to the methodry of how progression goes. Has the hard progression cap of 210 gone away? No. There's no reason for it to be, even with the extended patch cycle, because there are far, far more people who stopped short of 210, or even 200 to change that pacing.
Even if it was accepted as an argument that many many people worry about progression in this game - it's still a fractional minority of those people who are actually at the top of the progression bracket. Most of them looked at the currency grind, the endgame raid, and the extended time-frame before new content and went "You know what? I'll wait for Void Ark and Exploration Missions." And stopped short of completing their Esoterics set.
We also have to keep in mind that Summer is over. And that's a huge drop in activity for two major reasons. First and foremost, we're now getting into the thick of the Game Release season, people are stopping to play new games. I myself got into Tales of Zestiria and Destiny:The Taken King, because SE provided the perfect reason to take a break, clean the palette with some other games, and come back excited when the next patch comes out in nine days.
The second of course is obvious. School season has resumed and in full swing now. Collage and high school students alike are worried about major projects and midterms and likely will be distracted for a while. That means less game time. And with competing games of the non-mmo variety, that likely means that free time will go to other games a while.
How many times did we hear the slippery slope argument that FFXI was failing? You're sounding identical to those. Citing problems that are, primarily, a personal perspective issue that isn't reflected in the majority base, and using anecdotal evidence to try to prove it. You're going to be looking at all of those same populations jump up again (though not as much, remember the two major hampering components right now) once 3.1 comes out. And it likely will have more staying power, because those who don't want to raid, but still want progression, now have something they can enjoy.
Hardcore players again, do not suffer, because this is late in the patch cycle. They've had the opportunity to have their high end gear above others for quite a while now, more than usual. If a player is only every concerned by constantly getting stronger than others, then they can take a break until the bar is raised again. However, most likely what is going on at this point is most aren't at that level yet. They haven't completed their 210 set, and will now have more methods in which they can do so, so now they have more choices.
When they are complete, and they've beaten Savage, they can take a break from the game and enjoy the Game's Release season, catch up on the Pile of Shame, or even play some of the side games SE is providing for them in FFXIV.
Now, talking about being critical over Alexander in a bubble as a piece of content? Yes, Alexander could stand to be improved and be made more enticing. But pushing the progression so that they're even further ahead for something that's obscenely difficulty and unappealing may not be the answer. You're going to have to accept other proposals as acceptable alternatives in that vein. To be honest I think Story Mode was a good stepping stool, and will be needed anyways to gear up for Void Ark and Exploratory Missions, because they have caps higher than what's quickly accessible to someone just pulling a fresh sixty through content. (Altaholic, remember?) And with the weekly limit removed, that means it does become a good go-to for quickly catching up in gear. And at worst, put it on a roulette - that will help keep content populated.
I'm going to say this and I want you not to take it vindictively. Leave FFXIV. Don't involve yourself with it anymore, don't involve yourself with the community anymore. Close the book, and leave it behind you. You'll be happier. That's what I did with FFXI. It worked. I enjoyed myself in other games a lot more. I stopped fussing myself over something I say 'had potential' but ultimately did not feel like it met my expectations. I felt that it crushed the dreams of anyone that met my mindset, which I thought was common.
Do it, please, for your sake. I can debate with you to the ends of the earth when I'm feeling healthy enough to do so, but in truth, when someone constantly spews negativity. It sticks. So unless your true feelings are very, very very contrary to what you're putting down in posts here - then I can't conclude anything else then that FFXIV has become unhealthy for you. Stop and go do what you enjoy more.
#305
Nov 01 2015 at 12:16 PM
+millions to all Hyrist said.
And Hio, it isn't personal at all, but I definitely agree... you keep pointing to all of these things that you see as massive problems, and yet... they're not massive problems. That's evidenced by XIV's healthy playerbase and high resubscription rate with each patch. That's not to say that others don't want improvement for the game... but for most people who play FFXIV, these issues aren't the cause of so much negativity... hence why so many people happily play the game.
This simply isn't the game you want it to be, and it won't ever be -- and that's OK. There are many, many games out there and I'm sure one of them fits your tastes better than FFXIV.
If you keep waiting around for XIV to become something it's not, then you're going to miss out on the games that will actually be fun for you.
Have you ever started reading a book because you either like its premise or the author? But by the time you finish the first few chapters, you just KNOW that you're going to end up unhappy with the book? That's happened to me. Sometimes, I plow through the book anyway, just because I feel like I have to. Other times, I've just stopped reading to avoid wasting time.
I've NEVER regretted putting a book down that I didn't really want to read. I've definitely regretted wasting time on books that didn't speak to me.
Edited, Nov 1st 2015 10:21am by Thayos
Edited, Nov 1st 2015 10:49am by Thayos
And Hio, it isn't personal at all, but I definitely agree... you keep pointing to all of these things that you see as massive problems, and yet... they're not massive problems. That's evidenced by XIV's healthy playerbase and high resubscription rate with each patch. That's not to say that others don't want improvement for the game... but for most people who play FFXIV, these issues aren't the cause of so much negativity... hence why so many people happily play the game.
This simply isn't the game you want it to be, and it won't ever be -- and that's OK. There are many, many games out there and I'm sure one of them fits your tastes better than FFXIV.
If you keep waiting around for XIV to become something it's not, then you're going to miss out on the games that will actually be fun for you.
Have you ever started reading a book because you either like its premise or the author? But by the time you finish the first few chapters, you just KNOW that you're going to end up unhappy with the book? That's happened to me. Sometimes, I plow through the book anyway, just because I feel like I have to. Other times, I've just stopped reading to avoid wasting time.
I've NEVER regretted putting a book down that I didn't really want to read. I've definitely regretted wasting time on books that didn't speak to me.
Edited, Nov 1st 2015 10:21am by Thayos
Edited, Nov 1st 2015 10:49am by Thayos
Thayos Redblade
Jormungandr
Hyperion
Jormungandr
Hyperion
#306
Nov 01 2015 at 4:52 PM
The thing is:
I already play games that are fun to me. I can go into full detail about why I love PSO2 and still criticize it because it has typical Sega problems with some of the content. I could go on and on about why I like GW2 yet still find it bland because outside of the fluff, it's still very generic for when it came out. I can definitely go on about why I love Tree of Savior and Black Desert but still talk about its problems. (even ignoring that ToS is a beta.) That's just online games.
The problem at hand:
No matter how you try to defend the game, it has problems that shouldn't be problems especially for an extremely new MMO (since we're not supposed to talk about its previous version) and saying it's personal perspective..is well..stating that it's just an opinion we should have proper housing, proper servers and the ability to have proper choices in how we progression without worrying about making one path obsolete for the hell of it. Like I said, yoshida has went on record numerous time saying increasing character data even slightly will crash the servers and cause other issues, which is why they want to work around retainers, hence why they allowed us to BUY more retainers with real money. Now, anyone who logically looks at this situation will say it's an obvious money grab and anyone who will logically look at it from a design standpoint will say they need to fix the game's foundation if they can't do certain things because of fear of crashing servers.
I said it before and I'll say it again: How many MMO developers have ever stated they can't add certain content or even inventory space because it will crash their servers? Even SE themselves used the "PS2 limitations" excuse as a polite way of saying "no", because despite the fact they didn't drop support of the PS2, they still managed to include 3 new inventory systems since they said "PS2 Limitations." So suffice to say, the fact a lot of issues are revolving around the game from a design standpoint, that's not personal. Saying people who raid are only in the minority would mean they would have stopped producing them long before 3.0, in all reality, by 2.3 they would have. You don't create content only a tiny portion of your community will take part in, especially if you're being as resource consicous as yoshi is, it simply doesn't work that way because it's similar to telling your boss to spend $30k on an idea you have that could only MAYBE bring in more money or lose them far more money than that 30k investment.
That's why I said it perfectly clear: After transferring to Balmung, It became quite clear that pretty much every other server is basically what you'd expect of an MMO, especially on the other legacy worlds, and are higher in the raid progression. Balmung is largely where the casual/rp players went, so if your experience is primarily on Balmung or even Gilgamesh, it makes sense people may think "raiders are a tiny portion of the community" or people who care for doing content is a "small portion." So in reality, a lot of people who looked at the currency and new stuff and went "nah" did so because it's the SAME CYCLE as 2.x era.
If people who like doing content is a tiny portion, again, why do they continue to develop content if only a tiny portion even utilizes it? I asked before and never got an answer: If it's as it's being laid out, why does the crystal towers and older content die out and isn't "healthy" throughout every patch cycle if only a tiny portion cares for progression? Surely people who don't care about keeping current would still be a large enough population that the towers would still be under 5 minute queues and people would still run the earlier Ex primals for Primal Focus and so on.
However like I said: Unless you're constantly praising the game, no matter what you say or feel, it will be taken as negativiity. I play many MMOs, then I look at XIV and see that the EXTREMELY SIMILAR SYSTEMS aren't even as good as the ones they used for inspiration. That, as said, is no longer "personal"..it's pretty apparent. Most MMOs have fixed their raiding system and offered tons of options, XIV is still doing things that early instanced based MMOs did. But that would be considered being negative unless I say:
"BUT I LOVE IT SO IT'S OK!"
Thayos, you played GW2 to a point I know you did at least a few of the higher end dungeons and your personal storyline - Tell me: How is it negative in stating that in XIV they should have followed the similar system of having a Story/Normal/Hard/Exploration selection which changed the dungeon layout (routes usually), the npcs involved, the monsters and drops? Most MMOs use that system - Not only does it save time and money to focus fire your talent on one set of content but allow it to be varied enough that it's all "different" similar to XI's Skirmishes, but you keep content around even longer than one cycle, which means you can actually introduce "less" core content and focus more on side content to pad things out, instead of making past content obsolete and introduce padded content in place of the content you basically tossed out. So no, it has nothing to do with waiting it to turn into a game "I like" because once again, I said I don't hate the game and obviously play it (and clearly actually do all of the content so I'm not talking about what I "just read") it's more along the lines of, when will they evolve the game?
Like I said, XIV has one of the most accepting communities because if this was any other MMO, including XI, people wouldn't be as "oh no big deal I love the game so it's ok!" and be more wondering what's going on. So yeah as even I said a page back, the fact so many toss their money at SE and not even touch most of the content, they feel they can get away with doing as little as possible - I never said this was wrong or right, but stated that's exactly why nothing will change until even more get bored of the game, and despite what some may want to believe, it's not because summer is over, it's because there's been 5 months of no content update and as said, on the other servers I play, where clearly the people who care for progression actually play it seems, people stopped logging in because I still have TS/Discoid info for the FCs I'm in/have been in and linkshells that have one and many have left XIV due to boredom, not because their school went back into session because some play AT school instead of doing their work, and we all know people like that..so when even they stop logging in..you know it's bad.
Until SE says: We have (this many) active subs, it's hard to say there's a healthy population when if said population is more on the casual side..how are we defining casual? Not doing content at all and just sitting around RPing the content instead of actually doing it? People standing around crafting/gathering and never touched even the main story? People who only do Crystal Towers? As I said, an extremely healthy game wouldn't have long queues even for old content because statistically speaking, if there's 700k people who play casually or midcore and only 100k who play "hardcore", queues for obsoleted content and even heavily nerfed and overpowered content due to ilvl even while sync should be in a good queue position, people would be flooding Crystal Towers still, even as tank which will be slightly longer due to the 3 tank rule..should still be much faster. PFs should be FULL of people wanting to run old content as it'd be quicker than relying on DF for some of it. Why even on casually based servers, is it still fairly "slow" when it comes to content? If it gets percieved that I'm just "negative", it seems to me it's being ignored and even in favor of there being no progression content.
Like..what MMO is known for no progression content that people actually play? Even the much taunted Hello Kitty has progression content in some fashion lol. So until we see actual broken down numbers from SE themselves, who actually takes pride in being able to see clear rates on content, it's really hard to say people who do content makes up a tiny portion. Especially if you take Alex Savage into consideration which people who loved coil aren't even really doing because it's OPTIONAL content forced onto us for progression. That's why I said showing Alex Savage numbers says nothing because only the people who like being "world first" cared for it, which is why it significantly dropped off because unless you're gunning for WF, 1 and at best 2 is where you'd be, 3 is trying to push through to 4. If they showed the Binding Coil numbers, I can safely promise you they'd be significantly higher, even with the T5/T9/T13 brick walls a lot were stuck at.
Therein lies my point: Despite those being the "ultimate test" there's a lot more people who even did Coil compared to Savage Alexander. So I really wouldn't say people who care for prorgession is "tiny", it's more along the lines of the progression content for raising ilvl to max is VERY limited. That's why 2.0 and 2.1 were perfect in terms of content balance because the ilvl didn't drastically jump and you had a CLEAR main path and clear alternate path..which kept all camps happy. Then they went to god knows what direction down the line lol.
I already play games that are fun to me. I can go into full detail about why I love PSO2 and still criticize it because it has typical Sega problems with some of the content. I could go on and on about why I like GW2 yet still find it bland because outside of the fluff, it's still very generic for when it came out. I can definitely go on about why I love Tree of Savior and Black Desert but still talk about its problems. (even ignoring that ToS is a beta.) That's just online games.
The problem at hand:
No matter how you try to defend the game, it has problems that shouldn't be problems especially for an extremely new MMO (since we're not supposed to talk about its previous version) and saying it's personal perspective..is well..stating that it's just an opinion we should have proper housing, proper servers and the ability to have proper choices in how we progression without worrying about making one path obsolete for the hell of it. Like I said, yoshida has went on record numerous time saying increasing character data even slightly will crash the servers and cause other issues, which is why they want to work around retainers, hence why they allowed us to BUY more retainers with real money. Now, anyone who logically looks at this situation will say it's an obvious money grab and anyone who will logically look at it from a design standpoint will say they need to fix the game's foundation if they can't do certain things because of fear of crashing servers.
I said it before and I'll say it again: How many MMO developers have ever stated they can't add certain content or even inventory space because it will crash their servers? Even SE themselves used the "PS2 limitations" excuse as a polite way of saying "no", because despite the fact they didn't drop support of the PS2, they still managed to include 3 new inventory systems since they said "PS2 Limitations." So suffice to say, the fact a lot of issues are revolving around the game from a design standpoint, that's not personal. Saying people who raid are only in the minority would mean they would have stopped producing them long before 3.0, in all reality, by 2.3 they would have. You don't create content only a tiny portion of your community will take part in, especially if you're being as resource consicous as yoshi is, it simply doesn't work that way because it's similar to telling your boss to spend $30k on an idea you have that could only MAYBE bring in more money or lose them far more money than that 30k investment.
That's why I said it perfectly clear: After transferring to Balmung, It became quite clear that pretty much every other server is basically what you'd expect of an MMO, especially on the other legacy worlds, and are higher in the raid progression. Balmung is largely where the casual/rp players went, so if your experience is primarily on Balmung or even Gilgamesh, it makes sense people may think "raiders are a tiny portion of the community" or people who care for doing content is a "small portion." So in reality, a lot of people who looked at the currency and new stuff and went "nah" did so because it's the SAME CYCLE as 2.x era.
If people who like doing content is a tiny portion, again, why do they continue to develop content if only a tiny portion even utilizes it? I asked before and never got an answer: If it's as it's being laid out, why does the crystal towers and older content die out and isn't "healthy" throughout every patch cycle if only a tiny portion cares for progression? Surely people who don't care about keeping current would still be a large enough population that the towers would still be under 5 minute queues and people would still run the earlier Ex primals for Primal Focus and so on.
However like I said: Unless you're constantly praising the game, no matter what you say or feel, it will be taken as negativiity. I play many MMOs, then I look at XIV and see that the EXTREMELY SIMILAR SYSTEMS aren't even as good as the ones they used for inspiration. That, as said, is no longer "personal"..it's pretty apparent. Most MMOs have fixed their raiding system and offered tons of options, XIV is still doing things that early instanced based MMOs did. But that would be considered being negative unless I say:
"BUT I LOVE IT SO IT'S OK!"
Thayos, you played GW2 to a point I know you did at least a few of the higher end dungeons and your personal storyline - Tell me: How is it negative in stating that in XIV they should have followed the similar system of having a Story/Normal/Hard/Exploration selection which changed the dungeon layout (routes usually), the npcs involved, the monsters and drops? Most MMOs use that system - Not only does it save time and money to focus fire your talent on one set of content but allow it to be varied enough that it's all "different" similar to XI's Skirmishes, but you keep content around even longer than one cycle, which means you can actually introduce "less" core content and focus more on side content to pad things out, instead of making past content obsolete and introduce padded content in place of the content you basically tossed out. So no, it has nothing to do with waiting it to turn into a game "I like" because once again, I said I don't hate the game and obviously play it (and clearly actually do all of the content so I'm not talking about what I "just read") it's more along the lines of, when will they evolve the game?
Like I said, XIV has one of the most accepting communities because if this was any other MMO, including XI, people wouldn't be as "oh no big deal I love the game so it's ok!" and be more wondering what's going on. So yeah as even I said a page back, the fact so many toss their money at SE and not even touch most of the content, they feel they can get away with doing as little as possible - I never said this was wrong or right, but stated that's exactly why nothing will change until even more get bored of the game, and despite what some may want to believe, it's not because summer is over, it's because there's been 5 months of no content update and as said, on the other servers I play, where clearly the people who care for progression actually play it seems, people stopped logging in because I still have TS/Discoid info for the FCs I'm in/have been in and linkshells that have one and many have left XIV due to boredom, not because their school went back into session because some play AT school instead of doing their work, and we all know people like that..so when even they stop logging in..you know it's bad.
Until SE says: We have (this many) active subs, it's hard to say there's a healthy population when if said population is more on the casual side..how are we defining casual? Not doing content at all and just sitting around RPing the content instead of actually doing it? People standing around crafting/gathering and never touched even the main story? People who only do Crystal Towers? As I said, an extremely healthy game wouldn't have long queues even for old content because statistically speaking, if there's 700k people who play casually or midcore and only 100k who play "hardcore", queues for obsoleted content and even heavily nerfed and overpowered content due to ilvl even while sync should be in a good queue position, people would be flooding Crystal Towers still, even as tank which will be slightly longer due to the 3 tank rule..should still be much faster. PFs should be FULL of people wanting to run old content as it'd be quicker than relying on DF for some of it. Why even on casually based servers, is it still fairly "slow" when it comes to content? If it gets percieved that I'm just "negative", it seems to me it's being ignored and even in favor of there being no progression content.
Like..what MMO is known for no progression content that people actually play? Even the much taunted Hello Kitty has progression content in some fashion lol. So until we see actual broken down numbers from SE themselves, who actually takes pride in being able to see clear rates on content, it's really hard to say people who do content makes up a tiny portion. Especially if you take Alex Savage into consideration which people who loved coil aren't even really doing because it's OPTIONAL content forced onto us for progression. That's why I said showing Alex Savage numbers says nothing because only the people who like being "world first" cared for it, which is why it significantly dropped off because unless you're gunning for WF, 1 and at best 2 is where you'd be, 3 is trying to push through to 4. If they showed the Binding Coil numbers, I can safely promise you they'd be significantly higher, even with the T5/T9/T13 brick walls a lot were stuck at.
Therein lies my point: Despite those being the "ultimate test" there's a lot more people who even did Coil compared to Savage Alexander. So I really wouldn't say people who care for prorgession is "tiny", it's more along the lines of the progression content for raising ilvl to max is VERY limited. That's why 2.0 and 2.1 were perfect in terms of content balance because the ilvl didn't drastically jump and you had a CLEAR main path and clear alternate path..which kept all camps happy. Then they went to god knows what direction down the line lol.
#307
Nov 01 2015 at 5:43 PM
Quote:
If it's as it's being laid out, why does the crystal towers and older content die out and isn't "healthy" throughout every patch cycle if only a tiny portion cares for progression?
You're confusing "progression content" for "hardcore content."
Hyrist already summed it up perfectly, so I'll brief. There are many players of this game, myself included, who aren't even i200 yet on our main characters. I'm waiting until the next patch to really work on my character's progression again. So far, I've progressed by farming laws, doing Alexander NM and also farming ESOs. The upcoming exploration stuff will most likely be my next form of progression content.
Progression content =/= hardcore content. Most MMORPG players love progression, but most players these days are not hardcore. That's why XIV is successful.
Quote:
Thayos, you played GW2 to a point I know you did at least a few of the higher end dungeons and your personal storyline - Tell me: How is it negative in stating that in XIV they should have followed the similar system of having a Story/Normal/Hard/Exploration selection which changed the dungeon layout (routes usually), the npcs involved, the monsters and drops?
It's fine to state things you'd like to see in XIV.
However, it's clear from how you write your posts that you really dislike this game, and THAT is the problem. I seriously can't remember you ever talking about what it is you like so much about this game to justify playing it.
All of us discuss things we'd like to see in the game. What makes you different is that you really, genuinely seem to dislike the game. It shows in your writing, and in the comparisons you make between XIV and XI. You really should walk away and find a game that you actually enjoy.
Thayos Redblade
Jormungandr
Hyperion
Jormungandr
Hyperion
#308
Nov 01 2015 at 6:55 PM
Quote:
Saying people who raid are only in the minority would mean they would have stopped producing them long before 3.0, in all reality, by 2.3 they would have.
I see this more as an appeal to tradition with the realization that a complete lack of raiding would have this very same minority being vocally pissed in their forums, fan sites, blogs, basically everywhere. Something you may see commonly brought up in related topics is that people against it simply don't have the time for them anymore, whereas their college or younger selves could've easily set aside multiple nights a week. This doesn't mean these same folks are literally incapable of raiding, it's just that game mechanics and related social customs make it really effing difficult to commit to.
So, as someone who IS disappointed that MMOs nowadays are largely about raiding or, similarly, PvP "raids" in group arenas or open world zerg gank fests, I don't think raids should disappear insomuch that alternative PvE progression content needs a higher priority than it gets, raider claims of "You don't need XYZ!" be damned with honorable mention to the fragile egos that slit wrists if the unwashed masses could actually join a PUG raid and be effective prior to content nerfs.
I've made allusions that PvE content should start mirroring more the ARPG genre in the past and I still believe that should be the case. Games like D3, PoE, and so on get their staying power from the general randomization of maps, monsters, and variances in gear. Of course, I don't think equipment should dip so deeply into RNG, but a little variance alongside solid customization options can go a long way in keeping people from being literal clones of one another despite cookie cutter build proliferation. Old thoughts on how the Materia system should've worked here fit snugly into that paradigm, but now it sounds like even the present system is set to get nerfed somewhat.
So, I don't know. Just more in the general topic of conversation, I usually try to stress I'm critical because I care. The games I do try, don't like, and feel have no chance for redemption do get left behind with no real regret. I've also had to become incredibly careful to not let "friends" guilt trip me into continually playing games I'm not fond of.
Violence good. Sexy bad. Yay America.
#309
Nov 01 2015 at 7:40 PM
Seriha, rarely do I see your posts split the line of balance like Hio's does.
I've said my peace on it. In spite of efforts of self-justification, my stance remains. Saying anything more on this will likely cause the conversation to go even more sour.
Time will tell if my assertions on the health of the game is right or not. I've got a good track record so far.
I've said my peace on it. In spite of efforts of self-justification, my stance remains. Saying anything more on this will likely cause the conversation to go even more sour.
Time will tell if my assertions on the health of the game is right or not. I've got a good track record so far.
#310
Nov 01 2015 at 8:01 PM
Seriha wrote:
I've made allusions that PvE content should start mirroring more the ARPG genre in the past and I still believe that should be the case. Games like D3, PoE, and so on get their staying power from the general randomization of maps, monsters, and variances in gear. Of course, I don't think equipment should dip so deeply into RNG, but a little variance alongside solid customization options can go a long way in keeping people from being literal clones of one another despite cookie cutter build proliferation. Old thoughts on how the Materia system should've worked here fit snugly into that paradigm, but now it sounds like even the present system is set to get nerfed somewhat.
.
Even games like D3 suffer from the same problem. They have Seasons now which are fun for about 2 months, boredom ensues and people leave in droves until the next season starts up. The other problem now is the internet is so rampant, you can't be original in any way shape or form because there's way too much information floating around on how to be the best. The early days of XI worked so well because the internet was still young and not everyone had fast access to provide/give information. I know this myself, I was on a damn 56k modem until 2003. It's only later on that people started becoming demanding in certain gear sets for certain circumstances. It's crazy the gear people had the first few years of XI and no one really gave a damn minus a few.
#311
Nov 01 2015 at 8:06 PM
Yeah, I remember when the attitude was, "oh, your gear is level 75? Perfect!"
Thayos Redblade
Jormungandr
Hyperion
Jormungandr
Hyperion
#312
Nov 01 2015 at 11:48 PM
Hyrist wrote:
Hardcore players again, do not suffer, because this is late in the patch cycle. They've had the opportunity to have their high end gear above others for quite a while now, more than usual.
I don't think it's really a matter of being first to have it as much as it is a matter of what is required to obtain it, so long as it's still relevant. No one would have a problem with non-raiders obtaining top tier gear as long as the requirement for obtaining it is more than simply a die being rolled after completing a trivial task.
Seriha wrote:
I don't think raids should disappear insomuch that alternative PvE progression content needs a higher priority than it gets, raider claims of "You don't need XYZ!" be damned with honorable mention to the fragile egos that slit wrists if the unwashed masses could actually join a PUG raid and be effective prior to content nerfs.
This also lends itself to the previous point. What is the purpose of players who don't raid running around in raid-ready gear?
/point BCNM/KSNM/ENM
Instead of introducing a new form of currency every time a new 'tier' comes out, how about converting that old currency down into something that would be used to enter a challenging encounter meant for smaller groups or even solo? This has the effect of both allowing developers to bring new content to the game that is more accessible for players who aren't dedicated to raiding, it provides a reason for said players to have/want raid level gear as well as recycling old content into new.
Somewhat off topic, but I was at my mother's house the other day. When I got there she was tearing around opening drawers and shifting various piles around obviously looking for something. I stopped her and asked if I could help her find what she was looking for....
"I can't find my glasses"
"What's that on your nose?"
I think I probably come off as being negative because it's hard to watch SE walk around looking like they lost something when they have the keys in their hand already, so to speak. Oversights and mistakes will happen, but I can't be sympathetic when it's the same mistakes and oversights repeatedly. If I walked back and forth tripping over the same object in my path every time, I really wouldn't fault you for saying "DUH!"
Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream
HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free
cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#313
Nov 02 2015 at 4:28 AM
Montsegurnephcreep wrote:
Even games like D3 suffer from the same problem. They have Seasons now which are fun for about 2 months, boredom ensues and people leave in droves until the next season starts up.
Well, this is where we hope development speed is good enough so when people do start feeling burnt out on areas, the next batch hits, and with that new gear needs. Though, I'd generally say XIV needs to be better about letting us gear multiple classes to the high end. D3's dev speed is atrocious, if being realistic, so Seasons almost wind up a "must need" under the illusion of starting over. Big problem there is non-season and old characters become a graveyard because they incentivize those restarts with exclusives.
Really makes me wish D3 had a mod scene, but yay forced online reqs.
Violence good. Sexy bad. Yay America.
#314
Nov 02 2015 at 6:44 AM
Sort of on topic: Even at iLvl 190+, even at level 60, T9 is still a pain n the rear to beat. 
I will agree, there is some older stuff I am holding onto in the faint hopes they'll make it relevant again. I still have a bunch of oils of time and even a sands. I have a stack of 99 wet bombard ash. I'm a packrat.
They probably never will, because it's Old Content. Which is a shame. It's Old Content, but it could still be fun if there was a reason to do it.
I will agree, there is some older stuff I am holding onto in the faint hopes they'll make it relevant again. I still have a bunch of oils of time and even a sands. I have a stack of 99 wet bombard ash. I'm a packrat.
They probably never will, because it's Old Content. Which is a shame. It's Old Content, but it could still be fun if there was a reason to do it.
#315
Nov 02 2015 at 7:55 AM
Seriha wrote:
D3's dev speed is atrocious, if being realistic, so Seasons almost wind up a "must need" under the illusion of starting over. Big problem there is non-season and old characters become a graveyard because they incentivize those restarts with exclusives.
While 3-4 months seems like a long time between content updates, you have to consider that this game isn't subscription based. It's not like they have monthly income to support enough of a team to push out content monthly. Even if they could it wouldn't matter much. What they add quarterly is enough to keep people who play D3 for a living busy.
The replay value in the game is being able to select between thousands of different class builds. Not many games allow you to be the healer, the support, the tank or the AoE/ST DPS all on the same class based solely on how you spec your abilities, allocate your attribute points and stack your gear bonuses.
Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream
HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free
cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#316
Nov 02 2015 at 9:15 AM
Quote:
They probably never will, because it's Old Content. Which is a shame. It's Old Content, but it could still be fun if there was a reason to do it.
I'd actually be fine if they stopped worrying about new dungeons EVERY UPDATE and instead worked on "hard modes" for more old content. Although, I think there's room to be creative outside of changing a dungeon route and adding in tougher monsters.
I've always thought there should be several ways to gear up characters to (or near) max iLevels, which would allow people more options in gearing up different jobs or customizing one job. In the past, though, all we've really had are tomes and Crystal Tower (I'm not counting hardcore raids, simply because raiding isn't a viable option for most players). We're about to get a huge improvement with Exploratory Voyages being a third option for gearing up, and from the sounds of it, participation/rewards won't be gated beyond the short re-entry requirement.
Thayos Redblade
Jormungandr
Hyperion
Jormungandr
Hyperion
#317
Nov 02 2015 at 10:13 AM
Seriha wrote:
Quote:
Saying people who raid are only in the minority would mean they would have stopped producing them long before 3.0, in all reality, by 2.3 they would have.
I see this more as an appeal to tradition with the realization that a complete lack of raiding would have this very same minority being vocally ****** in their forums, fan sites, blogs, basically everywhere. Something you may see commonly brought up in related topics is that people against it simply don't have the time for them anymore, whereas their college or younger selves could've easily set aside multiple nights a week. This doesn't mean these same folks are literally incapable of raiding, it's just that game mechanics and related social customs make it really effing difficult to commit to.
So, as someone who IS disappointed that MMOs nowadays are largely about raiding or, similarly, PvP "raids" in group arenas or open world zerg gank fests, I don't think raids should disappear insomuch that alternative PvE progression content needs a higher priority than it gets, raider claims of "You don't need XYZ!" be damned with honorable mention to the fragile egos that slit wrists if the unwashed masses could actually join a PUG raid and be effective prior to content nerfs.
I've made allusions that PvE content should start mirroring more the ARPG genre in the past and I still believe that should be the case. Games like D3, PoE, and so on get their staying power from the general randomization of maps, monsters, and variances in gear. Of course, I don't think equipment should dip so deeply into RNG, but a little variance alongside solid customization options can go a long way in keeping people from being literal clones of one another despite cookie cutter build proliferation. Old thoughts on how the Materia system should've worked here fit snugly into that paradigm, but now it sounds like even the present system is set to get nerfed somewhat.
So, I don't know. Just more in the general topic of conversation, I usually try to stress I'm critical because I care. The games I do try, don't like, and feel have no chance for redemption do get left behind with no real regret. I've also had to become incredibly careful to not let "friends" guilt trip me into continually playing games I'm not fond of.
I love allot of your post and I agree it is the whole mmo field really. They feel like they have no heart anymore and it has become all about raiding to a extent. I think crafting and gathering is actually a big part or could be if you wanted it to be in FFXIV. I think crafting needs to be fixed a little and rely less on RNG but it is better than all other games I have played.
FFXIV is still mostly about raiding and I really dont mind raiding but I do not want to just raid either. It is when the raiding all becomes the same that bothers me. In FFXI I was always heavily geared and so was Tesee. Tesee had a blackbelt and faith torque which took allot of work to get. We got her faith toque with 3 people playing beast. You know how hard that is and creative you have to be. That is the thing it was a challenge and it was different to get these items. We could mix things up or try different things if one thing didn't wort. In this game it is run a dungeon/raids over and over to gear up. I really like the dungeon and the raids in this game just dont want to be forced to them them much if You want gear. I want alternatives.
I like the rpg in mmorpg really. Last night I was mining and came around a corner and got one shotted by a Hunt NM, It scared the hell out of me, It was cool. I miss the adventure of FFXI and using sneak potions or what ever, It made you cautious and add the feeling anticipation, caution, suspense, rattles your nerves somewhat.. You do get that the first time you run a dungeon in FFXV..
May sound silly but I miss the events because they were so different in FFXI . Egg hunts, dancing, fishing, mini games etc. they were so different from each other and creative and some took days.
Look at the event in FFXIV that's going on right now. Took about 20 minutes. You talked to a few people clicked on a few things and that is it. Really who thinks that is fun? How much thought went into that? Probably took them less than a day to do that. Again it seem like they are afraid to put any money into this game. The holiday events are getting worse and not better and this had to be the worst holiday event yet. Where is all the money from the cash shop?
The missions even though I like the story feel like a big game of fetch.
I want some feeling, imagination, suspense, fun. I like the rpg.
Edited, Nov 2nd 2015 11:28am by Nashred
FFXI: Nashred
Server: Phoenix
FFXIV : Sir Nashred
server: Ultros
Server: Phoenix
FFXIV : Sir Nashred
server: Ultros
#318
Nov 02 2015 at 10:52 AM
Thayos wrote:
Quote:
They probably never will, because it's Old Content. Which is a shame. It's Old Content, but it could still be fun if there was a reason to do it.
I'd actually be fine if they stopped worrying about new dungeons EVERY UPDATE and instead worked on "hard modes" for more old content. Although, I think there's room to be creative outside of changing a dungeon route and adding in tougher monsters. .
So..basically what I've stated numerous times they should have and should be doing instead of their current cycle because an entirely new expansion was the perfect opportunity to actually do something different but get called a hater for suggesting it?
Quote:
Progression content =/= hardcore content. Most MMORPG players love progression, but most players these days are not hardcore. That's why XIV is successful.
Progression content = Character progression.
If my Ilvl is 210+ because I'm sitting pretty in full 210 right and full 210 left, means 220 would be progressing me further. Hardcore content doesn't exist outside of Savage Coil 2 and Savage Alexander, onceagain therein lies the problem: They actually skipped straight to an extreme version for progression that no one cares for because most people would do coil no problem (aside the ones who hate raiding and is extremely biased against it) but not many cared for Savage Coil 2 (title as reward? Ok.) So you're continually mixing up Hardcore with progression.
If I can land on an island, kill a few easy enemies and get i210 gear..there's a problem. Why would one need raid ready gear if they're not touching raids that justify the gear? Go unsync'd into an older Ex primal with current easy to get gear like Alexander Gear or even HW dungeon drops, see how you plow through it. That's pretty much what people are wanting to get when we already know nothing in 3.1 will require you to be anywhere near needing current max ilvl gear unless of course you step into Savage, since all he said in the live letter was the harder content to come out will be Thordan's Reign, and if you can clear Alex Savage 1 and 2, you'll have absolutely no issues with it even after bringing the phases down to 10 from 14. If you can't clear them it may be a challenge for you, but there's no DPS checks - Meaning high end gear is unnecessary even for that as you mainly need max ilvl to push dps checks. So I guess you consider Ex primals hardcore content? Don't even say Midcore because Coil and Ex primals were the same difficulty, Coil just had party mechanics to deal with rather than purely "DODGE THIS OR DON'T OVERLAP!" For example Second Coil the hardest fights are 8 and 9 when they came out, because 7 was only hard if you somehow didn't know how to FACE AWAY FROM THE SNAKE or FACE AWAY FROM THE PARTY when you had a triangle debuff. Or 'STAND BEHIND THE PETRIFIED CYCLOPS WHEN YOU HAVE CIRCLE DEBUFF". That's honestly not hardcore :/
Maybe it's because I actually do the content, even as a casual player, that I don't find it hardcore.
Quote:
and in the comparisons you make between XIV and XI
FFXI - Designed and Developed 1997-2001 if not earlier but in Japan we first heard murmurs about it in 97.
FFXIV - Designed and Developed 2007 - 2013.
There's should be no excuse nor reasoning XI can introduce more systems, have more variety within a system and find numerous ways to alleviate inventory issues that doesn't come down to: "buy more retainers." That's why I make the comparison, even more so with DQX because the Director/Producer of ARR was a lead designer for DQX and has proven he can do so much more. That's not hating the game. XIV having a modern engine, completely rewritten and should have better networking than a game capped to 56k streams should have far more systems, especially found in MMOs that's been released in the same time frame as XIV's development.
#319
Nov 02 2015 at 11:48 AM
Quote:
So..basically what I've stated numerous times they should have and should be doing instead of their current cycle because an entirely new expansion was the perfect opportunity to actually do something different but get called a hater for suggesting it?
As I've said, the problem isn't suggesting improvements. The problem is you continually harp and harp and harp and harp, and I never see you mention anything positive that actually gives you reason to play.
Everyone here suggests things that could be improved upon. That isn't what makes you unique.
Quote:
Progression content = Character progression.
Yes.
Quote:
If my Ilvl is 210+ because I'm sitting pretty in full 210 right and full 210 left, means 220 would be progressing me further. Hardcore content doesn't exist outside of Savage Coil 2 and Savage Alexander, onceagain therein lies the problem: They actually skipped straight to an extreme version for progression that no one cares for because most people would do coil no problem (aside the ones who hate raiding and is extremely biased against it) but not many cared for Savage Coil 2 (title as reward? Ok.) So you're continually mixing up Hardcore with progression.
Well SE can't keep pumping up the iLevels just because a very small fraction of players rushes to the 210 cap. Most players in this game don't do raids... and if they do, it's casual enough that they might just get one or two 210 drops.
As I've said before, this is not a hardcore game. If you're the kind of player who wants to focus on hardcore grinds, then this is not the game for you.
Quote:
If I can land on an island, kill a few easy enemies and get i210 gear..there's a problem. Why would one need raid ready gear if they're not touching raids that justify the gear?
First, we have no clue as to the difficulty of hard-mode exploratory missions. We also don't know how much RNG will be involved. So it's too soon for you to be so biased.
Raids are largely irrelevant to most players in this game. Most people don't do them. So there's no reason to gate off most people from that gear. There's seriously no reason other than to appease hardcore players who either have fragile egos or misplaced senses of accomplishments.
Again, this is not a hardcore game. If you get your kicks from peacocking around in the best-possible gear, then certainly there's a better game out there for you.
Edited, Nov 2nd 2015 9:49am by Thayos
Thayos Redblade
Jormungandr
Hyperion
Jormungandr
Hyperion
#320
Nov 02 2015 at 11:58 AM
So the conclusion is:
SE should stop creating a max ilvl? Because there's no point in having gear with a high ilvl if there's no content to sustain it. It makes absolutely no sense. Like any modern MMORPG, every major update will raise the ilvl, because that's common sense and common industry practice. You said yourself you haven't played many MMOs, so I'm guessing you just don't realize it kind of goes hand in hand.
Hey did you know? My youtube channels have far more FFXIV videos on it than any other MMO, including fun little stuff like:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZfsQJ27UXc? Yep I hate the game.
I offer plenty of suggestions - Like I said, it comes down to the fact I don't sit around and praise everything about it that it immediately gets considered negative. So no, it's not a hardcore game, thererfore none of the content except for an amount you can literally count on one hand is considered hardcore.
By one hand, I mean 2 fingers - Savage Alexander and Second Coil of Bahamut Savage. Again - if raids are "irrelevant to most players in the game" why is SE, 2 years later and for years to come, continually creating them? That's a waste of resources that could go to something else, Like I said though, running around in high level gear needs a purpose or they need to stop creating gear that has stats on it and a high ilvl if they're not going to justify it with content.
Yoshi is simply following industry standard, like ....surprise! Everyone wanted. Just look at the old 1.0 forum archives, you will see pleeeeeeeeenty of people including SE devs stating they're wanting to bring ARR to industry standard, aka what WoW does.
SE should stop creating a max ilvl? Because there's no point in having gear with a high ilvl if there's no content to sustain it. It makes absolutely no sense. Like any modern MMORPG, every major update will raise the ilvl, because that's common sense and common industry practice. You said yourself you haven't played many MMOs, so I'm guessing you just don't realize it kind of goes hand in hand.
Hey did you know? My youtube channels have far more FFXIV videos on it than any other MMO, including fun little stuff like:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZfsQJ27UXc? Yep I hate the game.
I offer plenty of suggestions - Like I said, it comes down to the fact I don't sit around and praise everything about it that it immediately gets considered negative. So no, it's not a hardcore game, thererfore none of the content except for an amount you can literally count on one hand is considered hardcore.
By one hand, I mean 2 fingers - Savage Alexander and Second Coil of Bahamut Savage. Again - if raids are "irrelevant to most players in the game" why is SE, 2 years later and for years to come, continually creating them? That's a waste of resources that could go to something else, Like I said though, running around in high level gear needs a purpose or they need to stop creating gear that has stats on it and a high ilvl if they're not going to justify it with content.
Yoshi is simply following industry standard, like ....surprise! Everyone wanted. Just look at the old 1.0 forum archives, you will see pleeeeeeeeenty of people including SE devs stating they're wanting to bring ARR to industry standard, aka what WoW does.
#321
Nov 02 2015 at 12:37 PM
*sigh*, *Click.*
About a year. I suppose I should be proud of myself.
Onto actual topical conversation:
I could give the same description to hardcore raiding, honestly. The only differences is the degree of tedium and the subjective ideals of difficulty.
Let me state my opinion on this this bluntly - Raiding in FFXIV is poorly designed, even by my low standards of Raiding to begin with. It's on part with synchronous swimming. That's all. Memorize a pattern, follow the pattern. It's not difficult so much as it is asinine. Relying on the percentage of human error and a memorization learning curve to supplant what I view as a shallow idea of difficulty. Pair it with a flat pass/fail mechanic on several points, and you have content that's just not fun. You don't justify that by slapping better rewards on it. You fix it.
Arguments against other pieces of content because Endgame is unforgiving to me isn't an argument in favor of the rewards of Raiding. That's an argument to re-design endgame so it's actually worthwhile to do. It's not that the rewards should be on par with the difficulty. It's that the raid should be on par with the rewards. A piece of gear that remains relevant for only 6-8 months isn't worth several weeks of trodding the gear grind just to pass DPS checks. In fact, no reward is worth that kind of tedium.
By comparison, Exploratory Voyages have the right of it, in concept. We'll see if it pans out in execution.
Overall I feel as if the Raiders here are trying to justify the bad design by calling it difficulty, and then demand more prestige for it. As I said before, the concept of Raiding needs an overhaul at the base, rather than slap a band-aid on it by keeping it the height of progression because other methods seem less demanding on the surface level.
Put bluntly, Raiding Gear is not being trivialized by the fact that 'easier' content drops the same ilvl. It's being trivialized by its poor design pushing people away from the content, the rapid rise in ilvl that necessitates swift advancement, and the profound lack of other rewards that have longer staying power.
There are other methods of "Progression" that could be designed here besides just dialing up the power creep, which honestly does nothing worthwhile when the goal posts just moves ahead to keep the distance.
About a year. I suppose I should be proud of myself.
Onto actual topical conversation:
Quote:
I don't think it's really a matter of being first to have it as much as it is a matter of what is required to obtain it, so long as it's still relevant. No one would have a problem with non-raiders obtaining top tier gear as long as the requirement for obtaining it is more than simply a die being rolled after completing a trivial task.
I could give the same description to hardcore raiding, honestly. The only differences is the degree of tedium and the subjective ideals of difficulty.
Let me state my opinion on this this bluntly - Raiding in FFXIV is poorly designed, even by my low standards of Raiding to begin with. It's on part with synchronous swimming. That's all. Memorize a pattern, follow the pattern. It's not difficult so much as it is asinine. Relying on the percentage of human error and a memorization learning curve to supplant what I view as a shallow idea of difficulty. Pair it with a flat pass/fail mechanic on several points, and you have content that's just not fun. You don't justify that by slapping better rewards on it. You fix it.
Arguments against other pieces of content because Endgame is unforgiving to me isn't an argument in favor of the rewards of Raiding. That's an argument to re-design endgame so it's actually worthwhile to do. It's not that the rewards should be on par with the difficulty. It's that the raid should be on par with the rewards. A piece of gear that remains relevant for only 6-8 months isn't worth several weeks of trodding the gear grind just to pass DPS checks. In fact, no reward is worth that kind of tedium.
By comparison, Exploratory Voyages have the right of it, in concept. We'll see if it pans out in execution.
Overall I feel as if the Raiders here are trying to justify the bad design by calling it difficulty, and then demand more prestige for it. As I said before, the concept of Raiding needs an overhaul at the base, rather than slap a band-aid on it by keeping it the height of progression because other methods seem less demanding on the surface level.
Put bluntly, Raiding Gear is not being trivialized by the fact that 'easier' content drops the same ilvl. It's being trivialized by its poor design pushing people away from the content, the rapid rise in ilvl that necessitates swift advancement, and the profound lack of other rewards that have longer staying power.
There are other methods of "Progression" that could be designed here besides just dialing up the power creep, which honestly does nothing worthwhile when the goal posts just moves ahead to keep the distance.
#322
Nov 02 2015 at 12:53 PM
Quote:
Let me state my opinion on this this bluntly - Raiding in FFXIV is poorly designed, even by my low standards of Raiding to begin with. It's on part with synchronous swimming. That's all. Memorize a pattern, follow the pattern. It's not difficult so much as it is asinine. Relying on the percentage of human error and a memorization learning curve to supplant what I view as a shallow idea of difficulty. Pair it with a flat pass/fail mechanic on several points, and you have content that's just not fun. You don't justify that by slapping better rewards on it. You fix it.
Arguments against other pieces of content because Endgame is unforgiving to me isn't an argument in favor of the rewards of Raiding. That's an argument to re-design endgame so it's actually worthwhile to do.
Arguments against other pieces of content because Endgame is unforgiving to me isn't an argument in favor of the rewards of Raiding. That's an argument to re-design endgame so it's actually worthwhile to do.
Completely agree.
This is why I believe the hardcore raids of XIV are the most poorly designed aspects of the entire game. They're not fun. Yes, I do think they are difficult, but honestly the most difficult part of these raids is finding seven other people with identical schedules for a static. Other than that, it's all a matter of memorization... that's it.
And it's not that I believe memorization is a totally wrong way to go... but these fights require so much memorization and are so punishing toward single mistakes that they're simply not fun. No, I don't want to waste so much time rapidly dying just to learn a SINGLE PHASE. That's just a horrible use of time.
Hio, you keep asking why other players deserve to have gear that's as good as the gear that drops from these hardcore raids...
My question to you is, "Why gimp everyone else's progression because of the rewards in FFXIV's crappy, not-at-all-fun hardcore raids?"
And my other question is, "Considering this isn't a hardcore game, who gives a crap if -- months after these rewards are available in hardcore raids -- these iLevels become available to the majority of players through things they'll actually enjoy doing?"
This is exactly why I wouldn't be sad if the developers just axed all future hardcore raids. This game doesn't need it, and every patch cycle we have to put up with hardcore players getting upset over everyone else catching up to their iLevels.
Why even deal with it? Most people don't play the hardcore content anyway (although at least story mode made the Alexander raid content something everyone could enjoy).
Edited, Nov 2nd 2015 10:55am by Thayos
Thayos Redblade
Jormungandr
Hyperion
Jormungandr
Hyperion
#323
Nov 02 2015 at 1:06 PM
What's not being said here, and what is the actual truth:
The power of the Raid Endgame gear is measured by it's accessibility. The fact that it is 210 isn't as important as the fact that it's the first available 210 method and remains a valid method for the whole cycle, which is even extended due to the delays. So this equipment has been even more valuable and the so-called 'difficulty' is 'justified' at this point.
The value of a 210 Piece from Exploratory Missions is hampered by the fact that it will only be viable for the limited time-frame we have left on the patch cycle. Same for the upgrades of Esoterics that have, up until the 10th, been exclusive to raiding.
Part of the reason why I have a strong distaste for Raiding right now is the staggered reward system that prevents this value from being embraced in its fullest, and the artificial difficulty that delays progress on clearing, which seems to deliberately counteract this value system they themselves put into place.
The power of the Raid Endgame gear is measured by it's accessibility. The fact that it is 210 isn't as important as the fact that it's the first available 210 method and remains a valid method for the whole cycle, which is even extended due to the delays. So this equipment has been even more valuable and the so-called 'difficulty' is 'justified' at this point.
The value of a 210 Piece from Exploratory Missions is hampered by the fact that it will only be viable for the limited time-frame we have left on the patch cycle. Same for the upgrades of Esoterics that have, up until the 10th, been exclusive to raiding.
Part of the reason why I have a strong distaste for Raiding right now is the staggered reward system that prevents this value from being embraced in its fullest, and the artificial difficulty that delays progress on clearing, which seems to deliberately counteract this value system they themselves put into place.
#324
Nov 02 2015 at 2:50 PM
I may have used this before and I am using coil as my example since I did coil to a point.
My coil group went to turn 5 and then fell apart and we replaced people and did no better.
But how fair is it for those that ran coil and maybe a turn took a couple weeks to pass some less and some more for a few pieces of gear. You could spend weeks on one turn even after you beat it and not get your gear.
The whole time someone runs a easy dungeon a dozen times in a day and gets as good of gear before someone in coil. It is easier to gear up not doing hard end game for the same results. Why would some one do something like coil other to say they beat it or for the sake of beating it? That aint enough reason for most. Makes no sense someone can gear up faster on easy content than hard content and also have just as good of gear.
You want someone to do these hard raids, make the reward worth it and make it good for more than couple of weeks. At the end give out something nice and exclusive that no else can ever get that's says look I finished one of the hardest things in the game. Not look i got a piece of gear that will be outdated in weeks.
Edited, Nov 2nd 2015 4:36pm by Nashred
My coil group went to turn 5 and then fell apart and we replaced people and did no better.
But how fair is it for those that ran coil and maybe a turn took a couple weeks to pass some less and some more for a few pieces of gear. You could spend weeks on one turn even after you beat it and not get your gear.
The whole time someone runs a easy dungeon a dozen times in a day and gets as good of gear before someone in coil. It is easier to gear up not doing hard end game for the same results. Why would some one do something like coil other to say they beat it or for the sake of beating it? That aint enough reason for most. Makes no sense someone can gear up faster on easy content than hard content and also have just as good of gear.
You want someone to do these hard raids, make the reward worth it and make it good for more than couple of weeks. At the end give out something nice and exclusive that no else can ever get that's says look I finished one of the hardest things in the game. Not look i got a piece of gear that will be outdated in weeks.
Edited, Nov 2nd 2015 4:36pm by Nashred
FFXI: Nashred
Server: Phoenix
FFXIV : Sir Nashred
server: Ultros
Server: Phoenix
FFXIV : Sir Nashred
server: Ultros
#325
Nov 02 2015 at 3:46 PM
That's the whole point, though... the hardcore endgame currently in XIV isn't fun. In my opinion, it's bad design to include such great rewards behind such awful content that nobody wants to do.
That's why I'm very hopeful about the route of Explorations. Other than a story-mode version of the hardcore raid, this is going to be the first new content system of the Heavensward expansion, and perhaps this could be an indicator of the growth of endgame for years to come.
That's why I'm very hopeful about the route of Explorations. Other than a story-mode version of the hardcore raid, this is going to be the first new content system of the Heavensward expansion, and perhaps this could be an indicator of the growth of endgame for years to come.
Thayos Redblade
Jormungandr
Hyperion
Jormungandr
Hyperion
#326
Nov 02 2015 at 4:04 PM
Thayos wrote:
nobody wants to do.
I'm going to step in this because this is one of my personal pet peeves when it comes to talking about games.
Thayos, I didn't pick your quote for any particular reason, it just happened to be "the one."
Ahem...
Speak for yourself.
Attempting to make an argument more persuasive by invoking an invisible majority is a classic logical fallacy called "argumentum ad populum" if you want to be super fancy about it with all the Latin and ****. It's SUPER common on the Internet or in any kind of public debate, but mostly the Internet... stupid Internet. Speaking as though you are speaking on behalf of a large majority of whatever constituency you hope to persuade is a fallacious position and lowers the credibility of your argument.
When you haven't been elected to speak for a large number of people, don't speak for a large number of people.
"Everyone hates <this>"
"Nobody wants <this>"
"Everybody agrees with <this>"
"No one enjoys <this>"
Sound familiar? They should because they happen all the damn time. It's perfectly ok to speak your own opinions as your own opinions without trying to invoke a large invisible constituency to back up your opinion. If your argument is sound and worth sharing, then it should be able to stand on its own and be debated on its own without having to lean it on a group of people that can't be questioned, probably don't know they're being invoked, and possibly don't agree with you.
You haven't been elected to speak for the majority of FFXIV players. You haven't been elected to speak for the entire raiding community. You haven't been elected to speak for anybody. Speak for yourself. You represent yourself. If your argument has merit, present it by itself.
Rant over.
svlyons wrote:
If random outcomes aren't acceptable to you, then don't play with random people.
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