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#1 Sep 16 2015 at 11:32 PM Rating: Good
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the game is 2 years old and on its first expansion... Im ready to see equipment and weapons that do moer than just increase stats...


wheres the "additional effects" or adds haste, or "lowers xxx recast time by xxx" or gives you a new weapons skill or ability, or "changes foe requiem magic damage from 10% to 20%" etc etc..

I know the firs though would be "things like that would ruin vertical progression... I mean why get the weapon that has better stats and higher base damage if your gonna lose the one that give that nice added effect" easy make some kinda way where you can transfer the effect from your old weapon/armor to your new one.
#2 Sep 17 2015 at 1:19 AM Rating: Good
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While I would love to see that sort of thing as well, I don't see it happening in the near future. It would require a complete reworking of how jobs, abilities, and gear are balanced, and I can't imagine them doing that mid-expansion.

Wacky additional effects on gear worked in FFXI because of the non-linear raid structure and the gear swapping mechanic. Nothing really had to be balanced well because EVERYTHING was situational, and most bosses had few mechanics and little strategy beyond "throw a bunch of people at it and stun and/or kite the 2hr."

It also works in a game like WoW where you have set bonuses and glyphs and stuff. In that case the entire raid tiers are balanced around it from the start. FFXIV isn't set up that way. It could be, but it isn't right now. Maybe it'll happen a few years down the road. Who knows? I can't imagine it'll happen any time soon though.


Personally I'd rather see them address more of the minor QoL issues before making any more massive balance or system changes. Let me queue with my chocobo out, let me rearrange my gear and inventory while talking to an NPC, give me more blacklist space, or at least let me remove names from it in bulk, let me hide quests in the duty list, etc.
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#3 Sep 17 2015 at 1:21 AM Rating: Good
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Wow I actually agree. One of the cool things about XI was gear that did wild things like modify abilities.
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#4 Sep 17 2015 at 6:45 AM Rating: Decent
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They could very easily do it with the current system. For Drg they could add a piece of gear with the usual stat increases but also add 10 percent added Spirit Surge damage. The only problem would be how quickly new gear replaces the current BiS. If we could change gear mid battle, it would help a bit, but that would probably require more work than I see them putting into something like this.
#5 Sep 17 2015 at 7:42 AM Rating: Good
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It doesn't ruin vertical progression in WoW to have trinkets and set bonuses that modify player abilities in interesting ways. Don't see why it'd ruin progression here to do that.

The stated reason for not having gear that does things like this is because it'd be hard to balance. My suggestion is that they hire more than 5 people to help with design and testing.
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#6 Sep 17 2015 at 8:01 AM Rating: Default
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I think it has more to do with Yoshi being petrified of "confusing the new player/new people to MMORPGs" as he says. Yeah it's "hard to balance" and yeah people love to say:

"but but..in XI you used gear you had at level 45 at 75 and that's not right!"

Yet we went 2 full cycles where BRD's BiS gear didn't even come from actual raids. So...there's really no excuse, especially considering 1.0-1.23 used the same concept and that version had engine problems.
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#7 Sep 17 2015 at 8:44 AM Rating: Good
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I think it has more to do with Yoshi being petrified of "confusing the new player/new people to MMORPGs" as he says. Yeah it's "hard to balance" and yeah people love to say:

"but but..in XI you used gear you had at level 45 at 75 and that's not right!"

Yet we went 2 full cycles where BRD's BiS gear didn't even come from actual raids. So...there's really no excuse, especially considering 1.0-1.23 used the same concept and that version had engine problems.


I've stopped upgrading esoterics pieces on bard because I'll start losing too much crit hit. I'm at iLvl 193, that's good enough for anything I want to do. Starting to save eso for SMN now and Alexander pieces for SCH.
#8 Sep 17 2015 at 10:17 AM Rating: Good
Theonehio wrote:
I think it has more to do with Yoshi being petrified of "confusing the new player/new people to MMORPGs" as he says. Yeah it's "hard to balance" and yeah people love to say:

"but but..in XI you used gear you had at level 45 at 75 and that's not right!"

Yet we went 2 full cycles where BRD's BiS gear didn't even come from actual raids. So...there's really no excuse, especially considering 1.0-1.23 used the same concept and that version had engine problems.


It was like Jay Wilson and Diablo 3. His reasoning for allowing you to interchange abilities/stats on the go was that the player base was too stupid to do math and customize their character. So now everyone runs the same junk rather then building several different builds like in Diablo 2. Sure there were optimal builds in D2, but you would farm for other chars and try several different builds. It also kept the game going constantly. Now, people level to paragon 500-600 in a season and put it down for a few months and wait for a patch. Similar to XIV...

These producers need to stop assuming their population is dumb...and then the official forums come alive and confirm their suspicions.
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#9 Sep 17 2015 at 2:20 PM Rating: Excellent
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Speculatively, I think Yoshida is more petrified of having to balance against non-linear gearing than anything else.

Even now we get some pretty heated discussions about Job balancing depending on where you look. Imagine what would happen the the conversation if variant builds were a part of that? This is a bit jaded of me but given what I've seen I feel as if giving the playerbase special stats in items would just give them more ammunition to beat each other over their heads with.

That said, I get the desire. I'm just wondering how we would implement such a thing.

One idea is, rather than individual stats, I could see the idea of Sets coming with unique bonuses for wearing the complete setup. The with this of course being whatever set would be considered 'best' would rule out all other sets, and completely progressive content like we have now.

One more problem with special statistics is the effect it would have on rotations, which are pretty hard set in stone right now. There'd need to be more flexibility on how DPS could provide optimum output depending on how the gear would effect it.

That's a lot of work for a company already potentially showing strain signs, development wise. If they could pull it off cleanly, I'd like to see it. However, I have to agree with Karlina here. I don't see it happening soon.
#10 Sep 17 2015 at 3:05 PM Rating: Excellent
I also don't see it happening in XIV, at least not with this expansion.

The old XIV could have been more horizontal, but the game was clearly rebuilt with vertical progression in mind, and there isn't really anything left from the old systems or development cycles to accommodate horizontal progression.

Implementing horizontal growth would take a profound rethinking of how new content is designed and implemented into the game. It would also probably require a big shift of job abilities, battle mechanics, etc.

I like the idea of set bonuses, but even then, people would probably only bother getting the best set that increased each job's primary function.

One of the key design concepts of the rebuilt FFXIV was for the game to be easily accessible by new players -- which means creating opportunities for newbies to "catch up" to the pack in terms of gear/levels. A horizontal game that gives players many additional months (or years) to optimize their characters starts to create massive inequities that can't be easily bridged. I think that's the no. 1 reason why this development team won't implement horizontal growth as a big factor in this game.
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#11 Sep 17 2015 at 3:27 PM Rating: Decent
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Not that much work actually when the items already have quite a few empty slots that aren't used, set bonus included. For example 1.2x AF armor enhanced abilities/skills or some other fashion, so while things are rotation based, take into consideration unless you're doing Savage, they balance around the mechanics more than the jobs directly -- the only job balance is the type of skills and battle arena. High end content is normally focused around DPS checks so if anything, the fact an OGCD skill could be directly boosted or give additional effects is all the better, since chances are you're popping potions which are more to make up for the fact there's not that much in the way of actual armor/weapon boosts -- good chance your weapon has excess of a skill you don't need, i.e Parry or Skill Speed.

This is why despite all jobs being "different" they all pretty much play the same in a way, so the balance would still be there..bosses already run on a gambit system and outside of the terribly designed Savage content (which is indeed untuned versions as he said) the content realistically only gets unbalanced as our ilvl pushes higher. Go through Labyrinth of Ancients now, mechanics aside..it doesn't matter if you have a "Jump Damage+800" on your gear as they balance everything inline with ilvl boosts so going back to at best i70 content with your i201 x you're going to wipe the floor with it.

Realistically, they're not doing anything major with the game anyway where balance would become an issue, so it's actually a good time to get the framework in then build off of it in the future. Materia is largely a wasted system compared to 1.x's materia system so technically it's already in place..but it's also just basic stats and can't be added to anything without slots and I fear the "we have no content in 3.2...so, in order to add slots to your gear you need to do this weekly quest" stuff they add if they did let us slot raid gear. So honestly, it can work it's a matter of if they'd take the time to do it since they also dropped 2 dungeons from the development cycle from here on out so, unless that's going to allow them to introduce some amazing content...the battle team and item team actually has a lighter load now.
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#12 Sep 17 2015 at 3:51 PM Rating: Good
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One of the key design concepts of the rebuilt FFXIV was for the game to be easily accessible by new players -- which means creating opportunities for newbies to "catch up" to the pack in terms of gear/levels.


Sure but that's not a reason not to do this.

You don't add ability-altering stats to things at low levels, you add them to things at high levels. You put them on AF gear, you put them on job-specific gear like the Eso set. Or you put them on a completely separate kind of gear that's job-specific by definition (how about the soul crystal?) like a trinket.

WoW has gear that alters playstyle. They carefully balance trinkets and set bonuses so that they're only increasing performance by a particular amount (I think 5% is the usual quoted number). WoW also allows new or lapsed players to catch up fairly quickly, and somehow the existence of this gear doesn't overwhelm people or cause them to start bleeding from the eyes.

It's just an excuse because balancing this kind of gear is more work and the dev team is ludicrously small for the size of the game they're in charge of. It's seriously time for SE to give Yoshi P some big boy pants and let him put together a big boy dev team.
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#13 Sep 17 2015 at 6:33 PM Rating: Excellent
I'm not necessarily against horizontal progression, I just don't see how it would make any real differences given the design of the game. We'd still have item levels shifting upward every six months, and we still wouldn't have gear swapping during battles. Also, given the way the battle system (and enemies) are designed, this game is less dependent on stats and more about just knowing the mechanics of boss fights... so even if you introduced new gear with various ability buffs, you'd still just end up with probably one "BiS" set that everyone would wear... and it still wouldn't really be horizontal progress.

I just don't see it happening in XIV, unless it happens with a significant overhaul of the development team's design philosophies at the next expansion.
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#14 Sep 18 2015 at 2:17 AM Rating: Decent
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Agree with op, the game is severely lacking depth atm in many areas, gear and stats/bonus being just one area.

I also agree it would never be something we see in the near future, se moves literally at a snails pace (usually reacting once something no longer needed/ wanted or until people simply get frustrated enough to leave)

I hope to see changes like the op mentioned one day, but tbh I cant see it happening for a very very long time, if at all ;;
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#15 Sep 18 2015 at 9:29 AM Rating: Default
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They let newbies catch up? Define catch up? right now Il180 you can get to easyly... however lost of ppl aer il200 and that erquires more work (harder battles and weekly lockouts) i dot consider being il1180 while everyoen else is 200+ "caught up" soon as i get to 200 theyll be on teh next highest IL thus no catching up is ever done
#16 Sep 18 2015 at 9:33 AM Rating: Excellent
Are you kidding? It's insanely easy to get caught up in this game.

Players quickly get 170 gear rained upon them just by playing roulettes, and in the meantime they also start saving up for Eso gear... and in the meantime they can also hop into Alex and start farming that gear, too.

When the casual 24-man raid content comes out, I'm guessing it will be just like CT in that nobody will need top-level gear to farm it... so that will most likely be another way for people with ilevels of 170 or 180 to farm i200 gear.

SE couldn't make this game any easier to get caught up unless they just sent gear to our mog mails.
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#17 Sep 18 2015 at 9:39 AM Rating: Default
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well I did say getting to il180 takes no time but thats not the max il right now thus not "caught up" and for the new "CT" that gear was always crap compared to other gear you could get at the same IL or higher... like if i recall correctly CT gear had the same or higher IL that turns 1-5.. and at the time CT came out turns 1-4 were easy to do and had better gear sooo why would anyone farm CT gear? Im sure the new raid will be just like that.. i.e Ill only do it once for completion/story then never touch it again.

On a side note I miss the timelines Se did in the FFXI days where they outlined the big changes to come to the game throughout the whole year.... they need to start doin that with 14..


Also why the **** is it Sept 18th, (most likely 19th in japan) TGS is practically over and we still have no release date for 3.1?
#18 Sep 18 2015 at 9:46 AM Rating: Excellent
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Im sure the new raid will be just like that


Member of the dev team are you?

Since neither ST nor WoD followed the model you just talked about, why would you assume Void Ark will? ST and WoD's models showed that SE learned a little more about where to put gear in those kinds of raids.

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well I did say getting to il180 takes no time but thats not the max il right now thus not "caught up"


Getting to 180 nearly effortlessly allows newer players to easily get into a position where they can begin farming the higher-end gear. OBVIOUSLY the top tier gear takes more work than that. The catch up there is that those players aren't stuck farming instances for drops or having to endlessly grind the lower currency before they can even try to start on the higher one.
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#19 Sep 18 2015 at 10:08 AM Rating: Decent
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please do remind me what ST and Wd did different because from what I recall when they came out better gear was already available and no longer locked behind weekly lockout so I still had no reason to FARM (i.e do more than once) those events.

Thats the thing top tier gear requires no work at all... it requires artificial padding... "you can only get 450 tomes a week... now you have to wait a week.. at that rate unless you started on day one itll take you 6+ weeks to get a full set, by that time we'll have better gear out so all that farming you did is now obsolete/no longer top rate"

Also even then players still cant catch up, since i you didnt do it on day one get luck getting it done with all the "must have experienced/clear" parties (rav ex) or ppl selling Alex normal and other things... Yeah Alex NM is supposedly doable in DF... but even then how far? I doubt they all are.. kind like hoe T 1-4 are easily doable in DF.. but goo luck getting T5 done that way, so ppl trying to "catch up" are still "locked out" of content due to artificial requirements/barriers.

And even though I said this already just to reiterate catching up now seems pointless when in a week or 2 what you did will be old now.. for example Im one daily hunt away from having my law weapon upgraded to il180.. which to me seems like a waste since in 1-2 weeks itIl be replacing it with whatever new Purple weapon we get (which is the reason I put off getting a weapon this long to begin with only to finally do it when I had nothing else to spend law or centurio seals on (because everything else is already il180) and got tired of ppl whining about me using Zeta lol yet I see no huge damage difference especially during AOe spam in large pulls... I do see different single target damage though.. Ive hit 2k damage a few times which I never seen happen with my Zeta on lvl 60 content
#20 Sep 18 2015 at 10:28 AM Rating: Good
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Yoshida already confirmed while Void Ark will be "new raid exclusive to FFXIV" it's going to be designed like Crystal Tower. WoD is the only oddman out because it actually dropped some BiS pieces for certain jobs despite the ilvl. Poetics were upgradable but unless you couldn't hit the broadside of a barn, the BRD body and feet were BiS, granted you weren't still rocking your overmelded Kirimu set from ages past..which good chance you still were.

VA will be ilvl200 weekly lock since alexander Story is obsolete per progression now, esoterics is upgradable and alex savage is 210 base. If it started at 210 that means there's literally no reason to do savage, let alone alex story. So while ST and WoD dropped era appropriate gear..it was still far from the actual current ilvl since that would create an alternate gearing path...horizontally, if you will, and yoshida doesn't like that.

Alex story is perfectly DFable..but at the same time it's a slow process because it's still weekly locked loot wise when it shouldn't have been once Esoterics came out. I get what he means because of the vertical nature of obsoleting all of your accomplishment.

You will have the gear going into the next raid..but look at HW - After all the T10-13 farming, over melding...it gets beat out on the first real dungeon drop. People hate gear lasting forever..and people hate gear lasting only weeks because when the next best thing comes out..it's just an addition 4-7 stats and some times looks even uglier. I mean they spend MORE time on glamor designs. Think of how it would be if all raid sets actually look the Thav gear in terms of design.

But then people would be pissed off and ask for a Story Mode Savage Alexander/New Raid because only people who actually do content will get that and it will upset them to know that. People say "but alts!"..that's cool..and that's why XI's system was still far superior in itemization. Even 1.x's was better since it came with more than basic stats and even the materia was multi purpose (HP/MP/Def/Store Tp etc combos on one materia.) Even though you can play multiple jobs per character, it's like..they forgot that while designing this vertical game...but if there were more content to sustain it, it would actually be a lot better in the long run. But the fact EVERYTHING progressively as of now is barred behind a weekly lock despite even obsoleting many of it...means they have something better in mind or they're really banking on people sticking around for that carrot.

Look at Bismarck - The ONLY reason it's touched is because it's like Mido from Ocarina of Time, just in your way for absolutely no reason at all. Not even the story bit matters because gear wise, it's obsolete out the gate because Ravana blows it away and doesn't require near as much DPS as Bismarck did (still does but the DPS check is insane in Bismarck.)

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#21 Sep 18 2015 at 11:12 AM Rating: Decent
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if it started ad 210 why would there be no reason to do alex story.. you know... for story? Also even then starting at 210 would mean the il requirement should be high enough that youd have to do alex story or savage to get gear decent enough to enter.. sure theres eso gear but again... weekly lockouts.

Also its not that the gear doesnt last long enough i mean a whole 3 months? thats fine with me... the issue is no all of us are all uber l33t hardcore so we dont get that crap on day one thus making it last 3 months.. by the time we get it its 2 weeks from being old.. or is already old (i.e i didnt do any of the turns until weekly lockout was removed.. heck I didnt beat Bahamut until HW early access started etc etc)
#22 Sep 18 2015 at 11:18 AM Rating: Excellent
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please do remind me what ST and Wd did different because from what I recall when they came out better gear was already available and no longer locked behind weekly lockout


When WoD was released (2.5), its corresponding hardcore raid was Final Coil. At the time, Final Coil was still not in the DF and it had a weekly entry limit.

WoD dropped i120 gear, Final Coil dropped i130 (i135 weapon), Poetics gear was i120 upgradable to i130 IF you were doing Final Coil.

In patch 2.55, Final Coil's restrictions were lifted, WoD's weekly loot lockout was lifted, and poetics left side upgrade items were added to the CT trio weekly quest.

Just because Final Coil dropped higher-level gear didn't make WoD's gear obsolete, nor did it make poetics gear irrelevant. For one thing MOST people couldn't do Final Coil either because they didn't have the ability or because they were gated behind the other two coils or because they couldn't commit to a raid team.

WoD gear could also negate LARGE chunks of your poetics grind. Get your WoD body? Maybe you don't need to worry about your poetics body. You just saved 825 poetics that can now go to other things. In this way the CT series of raids was also a catch-up mechanism. The weekly lockout on loot there also facilitated people using it to catch up because others wouldn't roll on gear they didn't absolutely need.

Some WoD gear was BiS even with Final Coil gear in the mix. Some upgraded poetics gear as well. For many people, the Zeta weapon was better than the weapon dropped in T13 if it was properly configured. All of these things existed together at the same time.

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VA will be ilvl200 weekly lock...


That's what I'm expecting, yeah.

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...since alexander Story is obsolete per progression now


Only if you don't need to catch up. If you DO need to catch up, or you want to gear alt jobs, Alex normal gear is great. I'm not a fan of the raid dropping fractions of gear... that's not great, but i190 is absolutely still relevant.

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After all the T10-13 farming, over melding...it gets beat out on the first real dungeon drop


That's an exaggeration. The first dungeon in HW is Dusk Vigil which drops i120 gear, equivalent to un-upgraded poetics gear or WoD gear. I didn't replace my Zeta weapon until Vault. And even then it wasn't a colossal upgrade. Also for green gear to out-stat blue gear, it has to be more than a handful of ilvls above it. You need like 15+ item levels before that happens.

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Look at Bismarck - The ONLY reason it's touched is because it's like Mido from Ocarina of Time, just in your way for absolutely no reason at all


Yeah, the current EX primals are in a weird place. Bismarck especially because his drops are weaker than upgraded law gear which takes about as long to get as it takes to order a pizza. Even Ravana is pretty much ignored now because esoterics weapons are much better and only locked behind a grind. I wouldn't be surprised if we see some mounts or something drop from them later, but for now they're pretty irrelevant.
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#23 Sep 18 2015 at 11:33 AM Rating: Excellent
All this talk of "obsoleting" gear only really matters if you're a hardcore player. For casual/midcore players, there's still tons of value in i190 gear... not just for alts, but also for glamors.
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#24 Sep 18 2015 at 11:47 AM Rating: Decent
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Thayos wrote:
All this talk of "obsoleting" gear only really matters if you're a hardcore player. For casual/midcore players, there's still tons of value in i190 gear... not just for alts, but also for glamors.


And yet, they spend their time and effort more on better looking crafted vanity gear or gear from sub rewards. So yeah it matters but it's not something to be ignored because even casual players are starting to get bored based on the recent trend on OF lol. When your high end content is bleh, how will your low end/"mid level" content fare? Normally you trickle down but XIV seems to be a flatline with extreme ends. No one really likes savage because it's the same content as normal for example.

There's not THAT much value in it or they wouldn't obsolete it very quickly :p If you want it for glamor..cool, but it echos what someone said on the FFXI forums:

"Considering a large portion of the playerbase only care for glamors and not even the actual content, if a new MMO with a better vanity system and more shinies come out, it could easily pull away a lot of players."

So..if the sub numbers are as low as I feel they are based on census data since even a tiny portion of all servers combined even touched the 'casual mode' of Alexander...yeah, even the 'hardcore' players matter.
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#25 Sep 18 2015 at 1:03 PM Rating: Excellent
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So yeah it matters but it's not something to be ignored because even casual players are starting to get bored based on the recent trend on OF lol.


These threads regularly crop up on the OFs whenever we hit that late-after-patch content lull. It's like clockwork. And of course those threads get traction, because it's just such an endless circle. Hardcore players want horizontal progression that they can really sink their teeth into over long periods of time, and casual/midcore players don't want to have to play the game like a second job.

If the game became more horizontal, you'd have just as many threads clamoring for the game to return to a more RL-friendly vertical progression path.

I'm among the many players who aren't logging in as much atm... but, again this is also clockwork. We always come back when the next round of content is released. Continually having new content to do is better than redoing the same old things for years on end.

Also, I've seen no data (even in the census) to suggest sub numbers are low. Last reddit estimates put the sub count around 800k, which is solid. I'm sure it's lower now, but it will shoot back up again with the next patch. It always does.

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yeah, even the 'hardcore' players matter.


They do matter, but not enough to alter the game's core principles in a way that might alienate the majority of the consistent 500k+ paying customers. I don't think they could realistically make the game horizontal enough to really satisfy hardcore players; and to do so, they'd put success out of reach for many casual players.

Edited, Sep 18th 2015 12:12pm by Thayos
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