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#27 Aug 11 2015 at 12:06 PM Rating: Good
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Karlina wrote:
Archmage Callinon wrote:
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Now, granted, I don't want something like Xenosaga (the first one) where you spend, say, 25 hours on a playthrough and 15 of them turns out to be watching cutscenes... that's a little TOO ridiculous.

A friend of mine once referred to disc 2 of Xenogears as a "semi-interactive Xeno-movie."

Xenogears at least gets to play the "ran out of time and money and had to fake it" excuse. Xenosaga did it intentionally form the start.


Xenosaga was also from an era where everybody was drooling over in-engine cutscenes that were almost as detailed as FMVs. Before Xenosaga and games around that time period, you did huge major events in FMVs, but the problem is FMVs were kinda jarring in the way that you went from pixel sprites to fully animated movie, not to mention you'd need a "fade to black", a couple seconds of loading, and then the movie started playing. It just felt... out of place in games that used FMVs for major cutscenes.

Well, the PS2 and its upgraded hardware came along, and now they could have in-game cutscenes that were almost as good as FMVs, so they started using those, and they used them everywhere. Many games had them, and some games like Xenosaga used them excessively to the point where you watched cutscenes more than you actually played the game.

And Xenogears... well, that's a sad tale about running out of money. That game would have been THE longest RPG in history and that would still hold true to this day excluding MMORPGs which are constantly updated with content added to it. Judging from the abridged cutscenes and lots of talk about events, I'm thinking Disc 2 should have been Discs 2, 3, and 3.5 at the very least.

Even with Disc2 being a "zip zip lemme tell you what happened zip zip", Xenogears is STILL a 30-40 hour game with the player easily reaching Level 70+ without doing much grinding whatsoever. If they had been able to release all of the content they had in mind, I'd think without any exponential ramp up of TNL values, the player would have easily hit Lv99 without doing any grinding at all by the end of the game and the game could have easily been 60-70h in length. Easy.

EDIT: Note, when I talk about how "long" an RPG is, I am talking purely the Main Story and not optional side-content. One could argue games like FF12 take a long time to "complete", but when the Main Story is only some 15h long and the bigger portion of the game is fetch sidequests, collect em all quests, etc, you can't really count that as being very long, as not everybody enjoys the 'gotta catch em all' type thing.

Edited, Aug 11th 2015 2:10pm by Lyrailis
#28 Aug 11 2015 at 12:44 PM Rating: Good
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Lyrailis wrote:
Oh, and the "big empire" at the beginning of the game, wasn't evil either,
It's basically a Man Behind the Man cliche. Baron was the big corrupt "evil" authority figure until it was revealed the King of Baron was replaced by Cagnazzo, and was in fact just a puppet in a much grander scheme. So with hindsight they might not have been evil, but according to the sequence of events the story treats them as if they are, and the audience is expected to believe they are. Really convoluted. Baron is manipulated by Cagnazzo, who is controlled by Golbez, who is being controlled by Zemus, who is taken over by the incarnation of his own hatred, Zeromus.
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#29 Aug 11 2015 at 12:55 PM Rating: Good
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lolgaxe wrote:
Lyrailis wrote:
Oh, and the "big empire" at the beginning of the game, wasn't evil either,
It's basically a Man Behind the Man cliche. Baron was the big corrupt "evil" authority figure until it was revealed the King of Baron was replaced by Cagnazzo, and was in fact just a puppet in a much grander scheme. So with hindsight they might not have been evil, but according to the sequence of events the story treats them as if they are, and the audience is expected to believe they are. Really convoluted. Baron is manipulated by Cagnazzo, who is controlled by Golbez, who is being controlled by Zemus, who is taken over by the incarnation of his own hatred, Zeromus.



Given modern day meme titles, is it kosher to just shorten that whole process and call it Manception?

I'm really liking the discussion being had here as far as the various ways SE's attempted to play along the Villian part.

What do you think about Square Enix's use of time manipulation as often a tool of the Big Bad? That seems to be an occasionally used Theme that draws roots straight out from Final Fantasy I, but in spite of Chorono Trigger and Chrono Cross, it only seems to be a device of the Protagonist retroactively until FFXI:Wings of the Goddess.

And on that Vein, seeming Legacy Players were skipped forward 5 years, do you feel as if Time Travel will become a thing in FFXIV if so, how late into its life cycle do you think it will come?

Edited, Aug 11th 2015 2:57pm by Hyrist
#30 Aug 11 2015 at 4:50 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
It's basically a Man Behind the Man cliche. Baron was the big corrupt "evil" authority figure until it was revealed the King of Baron was replaced by Cagnazzo, and was in fact just a puppet in a much grander scheme. So with hindsight they might not have been evil, but according to the sequence of events the story treats them as if they are, and the audience is expected to believe they are. Really convoluted. Baron is manipulated by Cagnazzo, who is controlled by Golbez, who is being controlled by Zemus, who is taken over by the incarnation of his own hatred, Zeromus.


I know all of that, but early in game, as early as the very first cutscene, we're told by the main protagonist that "something is wrong" and "why is the king doing this?" which implies heavily that something weird is going on, like mind control or an imposter, etc. They tell you pretty much in the very first scenes in the game that not all is as it appears to be, vs finding out way later in the game. They just don't tell you WHY this stuff is going on at first.

Quote:
What do you think about Square Enix's use of time manipulation as often a tool of the Big Bad?


The problem with Time manipulation being used by the villain is the ridiculous power that it can have, and how exactly would you narrate the story?

Picture you as the protagonist doing your thing, and then the Big Bad goes "OK, what if I go back in time and made sure that village he bought that equipment at never got built?" ... then, what, suddenly that village disappears in front of your eyes, or was it never there to begin with? Or we could take it a step further... Big Bad decides to kill the protagonist's parents off before he was born?

The reason Time Manipulation works for the Protagonist, is because we see things from the Protagonist's eyes and we see instantly the affect the time manipulation had. When it is used against you, it is difficult to narrate when you're the one being affected by it unless you do something like "villain throws protagonist into another era" type thing...
#31 Aug 11 2015 at 5:34 PM Rating: Excellent
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Lyrailis wrote:
The reason Time Manipulation works for the Protagonist, is because we see things from the Protagonist's eyes and we see instantly the affect the time manipulation had. When it is used against you, it is difficult to narrate when you're the one being affected by it unless you do something like "villain throws protagonist into another era" type thing...

Yeah. Time manipulation is generally invisible to anyone else. Chrono Trigger did it most famously but even then only the heroes messed with time and no one else even noticed. Hell, in Radiant Historia even the other party members didn't realize that "you" were time jumping. If the villain was messing with time how would the heroes even know? It's kind of hard to tell a story if no one even realizes a story is happening.


Edit: Goes back in time and makes it so that typo never happened.

Edited, Aug 11th 2015 6:36pm by Karlina
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