Do you think FFXIV will bring back old school endgame?Follow

That is because hunts are deer blind hunts(just like XI) versus an actual hunting system. I would give my right nut to be able to chase prey in a complex, deep system with fun mechanics. My idea of fun isn't camping for 8 hours waiting for a deer to come close if there are no mechanics involved besides time or weather. A hunting system involving following tracks, scents, sounds, traces, etc would be very welcomed.




It is very unreasonable to design a major amount of content towards content most of the playerbase will not see.Unfortunately most of the hard stuff is all being crammed into dungeons or raids with twitch mechanics and an artificial measure of player skill called ilvl.

I could care less about gear if all it allows is access to the same content over and over just harder versions. Great news is FFXIV is getting some open world/new stuff in the future according to a recent Yoshida interview.

One thing I think this game needs is the ability to sync in scenarios besides fates and dungeons so that any content coming down the pipeline can be viable to players. They could do it like Guild Wars2 but then the player never out levels any content, so I prefer not that route.

Edited, Aug 18th 2015 2:55pm by sandpark

I get why people think of it as 5 years old, but if you are going to compare this with FFXI in terms of accumulated content, then it only makes sense to compare at two years. This version of the game has only been out for two years, and it required the development cycle of a full new game. There wouldn't have been time or resources to produce a full game + an expansions worth of content... And ARR was still pretty big at launch.

But yes, the IP is five years old, and many of our characters are five years old too. So I get the argument. It just doesn't really make sense in certain comparisons.

I can hold both competing ideas in my head at once. The game is BOTH 2 years old and 5 years old at the same time.

But for me, 1.0 really did not become a playable game until 1.23, which is around the time I finally picked it up. The worst issues in gameplay had been resolved, jobs were added, and while the core engine problems and server stability remained, it was actually a little fun. I got my black mage to 44 and got most of the way through the path companion story before the Calamity.

I also got the unique experience of only about a month of downtime because I was in early alpha testing so to me, the transition from 1.23b to alpha 2.0 happened in December 2012.

So lets toss all this cognitive dissonance together:
Final Fantasy XIV is 5 years old
1.23b is a little over 3 years old (this is the real 1.x that people get nostalgic for)
2.0 is really two and a half years old
ARR is now 2 years old

Edited, Aug 19th 2015 9:35am by Catwho

Yeah, exactly why I say in the grand scheme of things it's 5 years old. ARR at launch still retained plenty from 1.x - If you take away the areas, jobs/classes, stoyline and lore and certain concepts like Hests and Leves..what exactly did ARR bring to the table on its own?

That's why I say no matter what..it's hard to really brush off the previous version. The garleans we got rid of in 2.0's storyline was a continuation of their conquest from 1.x. The Black Wolf didn't just decide to conquer eorzea 5 years after the events of 1.x, those 5 years actually existed. The main thing that bothers me is, as said, the fact they obsolete content. In XI content stayed relevant because the content wasn't obsolete when you got what you wanted/ People say it was due to drop rates..well, the same for XIV then - One can't state XI content only remained fresh or stayed relevant due to "low drop rate" or "spending a lot of time on x" when XIV is exactly the same way, but with the added benefit of your accomplishments and gear being thrown out the window every update. Hell the only reason 2.x content even had life was because they did what most MMO gamers/gamers in general despise - forced us into content we have no reason to touch again.

If this was any other MMO, there would be a lot of angry people that we were going back into content that we left behind 1-1.5 years ago if not longer due to vertical progression. If it was like Guildwars 2 or PSO2, no problem that would be amazing:

"Yes you have to run the 2-5 year old Darkhold for relic item..but did you know? There's a section of it the garleans didn't discover despite it being their base of operations for 5 years..well before you ran them out that is?"

That's all Yoshi had to do, instead it's:

"Run all old dungeons for a CHANCE at the relic item to drop in the end"

Which some people spent months farming obsolete content that did nothing for them (lets face it, if you're working on a relic at the time you're already at the progression cap) just for a chance at an item to drop that should have been related to new content. So while XI's format wasn't everyone's cup of tea..XIV was no better in the fact they reused a lot of content for new content..which normally would be viewed as lazy design.

Why do you think people raised hell over SE releasing those 6 add-ons to XI that took place in Vanilla and at best, Zilart and CoP areas? Because it was reusing old content. It wasn't people being "entitled" or "upset over nothing"..normally when you see "new content" you're not expecting to run content/focus on something that existed 7 years prior (in XI's case). Same with WotG, the story fit but due to XIV 1.0's production (no matter how much people try to deny this), the expansion was bare so that upset people because we got content that took place in areas we had for 6 years already. This is why no matter what, XIV as a whole is indeed 5 years old, but when they obsolete content, this is why it feels like there's not much there if you actually play progessively, which most people tend to with MMOs. It kind of feels you're being told:

"Don't do progression and you'll have endless content to do."

Like..when has that idea ever been accepted and went over well? Even if Yoshi wanted us to play "casually"..I play GW2 casually and PSO2 casually and I'm not told: "Nope can't let you do that fox, go sit in a corner or level an alt while you're locked out for the week on loot on every system that's worth doing."

Like..I get the idea but all of the restrictions just feels like an artificial barrier to try to hide the fact there isn't that much content. Even HW was fairly barren in terms of systems and actual tangible content. Most of the content was the storyline itself..since all it did was readd Faction Leves to the game outside of that. As of 3.0 anyway. When you finished the storyline, be honest: How many people chillax in Goblinshire waiting for PF or to DF their alexander floors/turns for the week if they don't do gathering and crafting? HW was more of a reset than an expansion.

This is why I had high hopes for the dungeon design this time around because they shafted A LOT of development of 2.3-2.5 because: "We're focusing on 3.0 development." So it's not wrong to think that there would have been..more to HW than just 2.0 again. My main comparison of the 5 year vs 2 year thing is, in XI, it had Zilart and CoP and since if being technical, HW was mostly storyline for its content, so comparing it to 2004 era XI is actually perfect as well as there were still the vanilla/zilart content you could do also that still had relevance, e.g Sky and Dynamis. If "grinding content for x amount of times" is the rebuttal against XI's format..the same is true for XIV. Every major update..we're usually stuck grinding an ex primal or coil/crystal tower area. That's exactly the same..except as XIV move on, what you grinded before no longer has a reason to be touched by you compared to XI, you'll always go back to Dynamis or Sky not because "limited content" but because the gear will always benefit you. Whether you found that a good or bad thing..it at least felt like you had something to do that was relevant to you. You could say "only cuz of low drop rates!' XIV's content would have the least content shelf life of any MMO post SWG NGE if they didn't restrict us on everything. XI had its cooldowns, but when you did end-game content with a shell, it was scheduled anyway. Which was another amazing thing about XI I liked, was somehow for the most part your server community actually worked together if x LS did dynamis at x time..the other linkshells largely didn't try to impede you even if you got a late start kind of.

So honestly, I think the biggest part of XI's content format was the fact playing with people made even the zombie grinds feel enjoyable..meanwhile you can rarely load DF in some Datacenters and NOT have someone being an idiot or making the run terrible.

Also Hyrist - You likely DF at the right times, Since I'm usually done for the week by wednesday if I get on "to do something" in XIV and load up DF, it's usually as they call them "the leftovers" running the content and last night for example I tried tanking Alexander 4 normal and had to not only switch my spec from STR to Vit but I had to go full vit (which netted me 22.2k HP) and still kept dying due to the healers, in their Eso weapon, being absolute trash. Meanwhile the Eso NIN was outparsed by the Bismarck Nin by 690 DPS.

690.

A NIN with a whale ***** did more damage than a NIN with his uber weapon. I'd post the parse but I'm not sure if that's allowed. So while both games are "apples and oranges"...they're both MMOs by the the same development team, yet XI seems to handle and do certain things better. XIV largely feel like a regression not from just XIV (came out in 2010, so we have to keep this year in mind for XI as well) but from XI in certain aspects. ARR came out in 2013...and it is now 2015. In 2015 XI..they somehow manage to not only update the game despite almost no PS2 dev kits left, but do things yoshi said would flatout kill the server. I mean, most of XI's open world end-game for the LONGEST time is pop based but still overworld, which is why Hunts in XIV felt like...the ****? Especially when no one asked for it. Beta Phase 3 and early ARR people did ask for world spawns..simiilar to either Skirmish of 1.x, or the world bosses from 1.0 (which I guess yoshi misinterpreted) because for example Dodore was a ******* fun fight THM exploit aside. Hunt mobs were given too much relevance due to the seals being forced part of progression if you couldn't (or didnt want to) do the actual end-game content.

So that's why it feels like they do X in replace of actual content which is why I'd ever compare it to XI, because as of recent interview the last 2 weeks, it sounds like they're FINALLY going back to their XI ideology which can actually be good. the XI team did **** even if it ended up not working..yet I can load up XI now and actually partake in either successful or 'failed' content. Monstrosity for example, it's a COMPLETELY different way of progression while using the same systems in place for ages. Pankraton, was a fun mini game but didnt offer real rewards (the only reason content systems failed in XI). Which is why, in my belief and experience in development..you'd assume they'd take stuff like that and build on it. Golden Saucer was fun, but it died almost instantly when we had actual content to do..was that truly a coincidence?

I know they have their hands full, but in the end, XIV is indeed 5 years old and despite only 2 years of it being "relevant", the content base doesn't feel like because vertical progression does that depending on the style. If they did what PSO2 and GW2 did..XIV would honestly be the best modern MMO out but it feels either they can't do it or simply won't do it.

Reading these testimonies, I must have some fairly incredible luck with DF. I feel almost guilty. Now, I of course have my bad runs. My Foray in PvP as an Adder is abysmal if I don't have a premade with me. But my PvE is fairly tolerable.

Maybe it's because of the position I'm in? I hear a lot of complaints about bad DPS, but I'm a DPS myself and I do fairly well - my rotations are nearly raid worthy, baring the fact that I don't have the right preparations like food and Pots. Perhaps that carries the part where runs are mostly lacking? I don't know - I'm lacking a Parser program right now, and am getting my performance numbers from our FC's foremost Summoner.

I'm also blessed to be often with other people for my usual grinds, except for Alexander Normals which I do alone.

I find this genuinely perplexing - what am I doing so differently that has these dramatic differences in experience? My times tend to vary depending on what times I'm feeling well enough to do Alexander, and I alternate between morning and evenings for my Roulettes.

I'm going to leave the remainder of the post on that alone as I feel I don't have the appropriate time right now to digest and respond. It's nothing wrong with the post itself. It's just that I'm reading at work and frequently interrupted. Therefore it is difficult to maintain a consistent train of thought.

I will comment that I think part of my experiences in game is colored by the fact that I'm involved in a Roleplaying community which tends to be more social by default, so that the concept of 'grinding' does not feel nearly as bad when I have at the very least a consistent circle of people to talk to in it.

This is probably also affected by the fact that I was rather independent in FFXI as well.

Edited, Aug 19th 2015 1:38pm by Hyrist

I think I get what you are saying, but out of curiosity out of the things you mention doing in XIV, which could not be done in XI albeit the content being a little different? Doing dailies was mostly the only one I could not really find a reasonably close equvalent to, but then there were several things in XI that would do the same. I mean I don't know if we are still talking about XI after two years, but honestly since XI actually grew and XIV mostly just replaces I see the discrepancy just growing in XIs favor with each year. I will say that it does not require as long of a time to do things which in some way enable you to get more things done in XIV in a day, but I find it very hard to agree with XIV having more to do.

Sure, XI could have done a lot of the things XIV is doing now... and in its later years, FFXI definitely grew more casual-friendly. However, that's also when people began quitting FFXI in droves, because it was no longer the game those folks fell in love with years before.

Ultimately, I believe it's a matter of culture and target audience. Back at the peak of FFXI, the development team would have been slammed for spending time on things like super-simple beastmen dailies that only rewarded you with glamor items. I mean, consider something like Moblin Maze Mongers... that actually had some decent rewards, from what I recall, yet hardly anyone touched it because it was simply too casual for the audience/culture of the game. At Vana'diel's peak, FFXI was designed from the ground up to be more of a hardcore experience (considering that Everquest-style gaming was still considered the gold standard). That's what the core playerbase of XI expected. I don't think random daily stuff had much of a place in that game.

The progression culture of XI was also very focused on gear improvements. There were very few "easy" ways for people to upgrade their gear. Whenever a patch introduced new weapons/armor/accessories, those small, incremental upgrades really drove the demand for the hottest content -- and getting those upgrades took lots of work -- another reason why short, simple quests with "meaningless" progression rewards wouldn't have fit in. Again, that was just the culture of that game... blame Everquest if you will, but XI's core playerbase was cultivated to chase (and WORK for) rewards, and that's what XI was built to facilitate.

Ignoring the simple fact that most players' in-game schedules were already largely taken up by time-consuming endgame events, those old-school MMOs also had other infrastructure/design issues that discouraged such casual content. In FFXIV, you can queue up for a dungeon and knock out some beastmen dailies while you wait. The quests in XIV are designed to be short, complete with mobs that have low amounts of HP and die easily, which fits in with the game's design. In XI, there was no "queueing up" and doing other things while waiting for parties... simply building a party could take minutes or hours. The game's design didn't account for fast travel (although that changed in the later years), and zones were much more expansive for no reason other than to be immersive... which was great for immersion, but also bad for quick, casual play. And mobs didn't die fast... and some classes in XI just weren't really good for soloing, period. FFXI simply wasn't designed for casual gameplay... XIV, on the other hand, was.

It goes both ways though... there are things that XI did well that XIV will probably never do well. That's why I always come back to the fact these are different games, and they should be accepted as such. It may sound cliche, but it is what it is. FFXIV will always do some things better than XI, and XI will always do (or, at least, used to do) things better than XIV ever will. And this is largely because of core design decisions made during the recreation of XIV. The first version of XIV employed more of the concepts of XI, but SE made the decision to change the game's core concepts and embrace a newer, more casual audience, and there's simply no going back from that without alienating those who have fallen in love with THIS game.

Edited, Aug 19th 2015 11:51am by Thayos

Same here.

How many subscribers did FFXIV have between v1.23 and when the game was finally shut down? Wasn't it significantly less than 100k players? While I definitely knew a few people who capped out all of their jobs, most people didn't regularly play. I didn't play regularly; I'd sometimes go two or three weeks between logins. By the time 1.x was shut down, my level 50 jobs were paladin, war and blm, and I played more often than most in my linkshell. I didn't have a single craft at 50, either.

How many subscribers does ARR have now? Like 700-900k maybe? It's statistically impossible to say even a slim majority of people who started post-ARR had all jobs capped. It's not even likely that a majority had ANY job capped. And based on the number of new registered accounts since the launch of ARR, I'm guessing most of the game's current subscribers didn't even touch 1.x (which isn't even really a guess, considering that 1.x had so few subscribers over its 2-year lifespan compared to how many XIV has right now).

For me, ARR was a continuation of storyline only... everything else was (and is) new. All new maps, new graphics, new character management systems, new battle systems, new dungeons, new party systems, etc... pretty much the only knowledge relevant from 1.x to ARR was the layout of Ul'dah. Everything else needed to be relearned. The game changed so much that post-ARR, I completely stopped playing as black mage, which was my most played job in 1.x. It simply wasn't the same job anymore, even though the jobs shared the same names.

But yeah, as Hyrist said, whether someone calls this game 2 years old or 5 years old is usually irrelevant, except when trying to make apples-to-apples comparisons about the timeline of content development. Regardless of what any one person perceives the game's age to be, the fact is that the game was scrapped after two years, paused for a year while being rebuilt, and then totally relaunched as a new client with pretty much all-new everything, including fundamentally different design concepts with the goal of attracting an entirely different generation of gamers.

I kind of joked about this earlier, but I think it's a half-valid point... if we're going to say FFXIV is truly a 5-year-old game, then can we say FFXI's new smartphone client will be 14 years old when it launches? Because it's also going to reuse a ton of intellectual property from its origin client.

EDIT: (didn't want to make a whole new post just for this.)



Yep, exactly what I mean. The math speaks for itself.

Edited, Aug 19th 2015 12:18pm by Thayos

I did a little of both.

See, I wanted to move away from Excalibur and establish myself on a Roleplaying server, mainly because I had resigned to quitting Forum RPing in an effort to condense my hobbies. However, I made that decision after the character transfer deadline so I created a new character on Balmung, Eric, and played through the main storyline on Arcanist straight through till character transfers opened.

Then I brought Lin over and did it again. Never did it feel like I was playing the same game. But more accurately, like I was playing a sequel based off the previous iteration containing remixes of some of the later parts of its content.

We'd have to tack on the age to anything and everything Ivalice related, if we followed that logic. If a new game in that setting came out, it would be 20 years old?

Tacking on development time, or existence of previous themes, battles as part of the age of the game really starts to muddy the waters as work and expectations.

FFXV has been in development for a long time, and it will have high expectations when it comes out. However, it's still a game that's yet to be released.

Hell, Dragon Age II long ago stripped me of all expectations and predispositions of titles and updates going forward. That's just setting yourself up for disappointment. Everything on its own individual merit.

...

Crap... Now I just made myself want Vagrant Story II - That game was deliciously dark before Dark Souls was a thing.

Edited, Aug 19th 2015 5:10pm by Hyrist

You're taking what we're saying out of context.

Final Fantasy XI was never shut down, scrapped, rebuilt and relaunched as a new game... so nobody would ever say what you put up above in quotes. That seriously doesn't make any sense.

But with FFXIV, the game -was- shut down, scrapped, rebuilt and relaunched. So what we're saying is, "We played FFXIV before it was scrapped and taken offline, and we've played since the game was relaunched as an entirely new product, too."

As I said... the IP is 5 years old. The current game is 2 years old. The previous version of the game, which launched 5 years ago, no longer exists. ARR was not an expansion of 1.x, because in an expansion you can still play the game's base content. FFXIV 1.x is gone, buried and completely wiped out of existence... you can't play any of it anymore. You can't play its dungeons, roam its maps, run the same missions or anything... it's gone with the wind. It's as close to "it never happened" as a video game can get.. and it would have been completely gone if not for SE carrying over the character data of those who stuck with 1.x through thick and thin.

That said...



Nobody is denying what a great job the dev team has done. They took a huge gamble in scrapping 1.x and starting over again. It had never been done before, and not sure if it could ever be done again with such success.

Also, for what it's worth:



Filth, you tend to have two issues with your posts:

1. You often quote or paraphrase people out of context.
2. Your sometimes-aggressive tone (which wasn't even aimed directly at me this time) undermines your attempts at being reasonable.

The first part of this post addresses a context issue. And in this quote above, you're attempting to be reasonable, but that's after previously saying this:



Your tone in this sentence seems to say, "There's no way that anyone could have seen ARR as a new game." When really, based on what you said above ("What I gave was my own personal experience..."), a better way to word this sentence would have been, "It's pretty much impossible for me to entertain the idea that ARR was new when I logged in day 1..."

This may seem like inconsequential wording, but as you can see, even the smallest word choices can greatly change the meaning of what you're saying. It's the same thing when quoting or paraphrasing people... you need to be really, really careful to get it right, or whatever point you're trying to make just comes off as not being credible.

Edited, Aug 19th 2015 3:44pm by Thayos