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#52 May 27 2015 at 1:13 PM Rating: Decent
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Thayos wrote:
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Unique is cool and all, but most people would probably rather be able to play the jobs they actually enjoy all the time. Being turned away from content or being forced to switch to a different job because it's "better" is no one's idea of fun.


One of the things Hio and I agree on is the fundamental flaw of the battle system, which is how fights unfold based on scripts as opposed to the actions of the players. It bothers me that there's really no such thing as "strategy" in ARR. Every fight is won the same way, as long as you have the same number of tanks, healers and DPS. By comparison, in FFXI, the way you'd win a fight might be completely different if you had two blms, or two rdms, or a summoner, or a thief, or a nin tank vs. a pld tank, etc.

In FFXI, I saw nothing wrong with forcing players to level up different jobs to be more optimal for different content... that seemed to be a reasonable price for being in a "living" game. But I understand that others take their MMOs less seriously, and they want to just be able to plop down and play without giving it much thought. It's just a shame that there can't be some kind of middle ground.


This is the best post period.
This is the number one problem I have had with the game.
Plus dungeons or trials it dont really allow you to do them with different party make ups.
I am tired of script. But they do it because it is easier. With no strategy people will eventually learn the fight.
Thing for me this is the major reason I got so bored with the game, plus the constant gear upgrades is pretty close.. As I said before crafting saved me..


Edited, May 27th 2015 3:17pm by Nashred
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#53 May 27 2015 at 2:16 PM Rating: Excellent
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Thayos wrote:
I'm actually more inclined to stick with bard as my main DPS job now that I've learned about it's new ability... I like the idea of having to cleverly know when to activate that buff, then riding the line as far as I can before needing to move again. It's kind of the same way I tank multiple enemies... I try to keep just enough hate that I'm the one getting hit, but I also think about how every GCD spent flashing is DPS I'm not inflicting on the target.


Learning now from the hands-on reviews that the new bard song takes 3 seconds to cast, and will boost damage from all skill abilities by 25%. Plus while the song plays you will get access to a powerful charged attack and a buff that automatically recasts your active dots on the target.

So, assuming you have 130, decked out in BiS, and you practically do 500 dps. 3 seconds to cast the spell means you lose 1500 damage. Assuming you pick right back up to speed afterwards, a 25% boost is equal to 125 extra damage per second (i.e. 500*0.25). Soooo, you would need to stay still for 12 seconds after casting the song (1500/125=12), doing max dps in order to just make up for the 3 seconds you were casting the spell. So I am assuming that the instant dot renewal will allow more heavy shots / bloodletters to go off, but that might only make up for abotu 6 seconds you have to stand still to break even (that's a guess).

So the usefulness of the song all hovers on that powerful charge attack (think its Empyrial something or other) and how much DPS that will deal.
#54 May 27 2015 at 2:23 PM Rating: Excellent
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Nashred wrote:
Thayos wrote:
Quote:
Unique is cool and all, but most people would probably rather be able to play the jobs they actually enjoy all the time. Being turned away from content or being forced to switch to a different job because it's "better" is no one's idea of fun.


One of the things Hio and I agree on is the fundamental flaw of the battle system, which is how fights unfold based on scripts as opposed to the actions of the players. It bothers me that there's really no such thing as "strategy" in ARR. Every fight is won the same way, as long as you have the same number of tanks, healers and DPS. By comparison, in FFXI, the way you'd win a fight might be completely different if you had two blms, or two rdms, or a summoner, or a thief, or a nin tank vs. a pld tank, etc.

In FFXI, I saw nothing wrong with forcing players to level up different jobs to be more optimal for different content... that seemed to be a reasonable price for being in a "living" game. But I understand that others take their MMOs less seriously, and they want to just be able to plop down and play without giving it much thought. It's just a shame that there can't be some kind of middle ground.


This is the best post period.
This is the number one problem I have had with the game.
Plus dungeons or trials it dont really allow you to do them with different party make ups.
I am tired of script. But they do it because it is easier. With no strategy people will eventually learn the fight.
Thing for me this is the major reason I got so bored with the game, plus the constant gear upgrades is pretty close.. As I said before crafting saved me..

Edited, May 27th 2015 3:17pm by Nashred


I sort of like the fact that I can jump into a battle any of the jobs in FFXIV and have an equal chance to win. But I still wish for the diversity in job/subjob combos you could put together in FFXI.

I suppose it is currently balanced as it is to prevent parties from, for instance, treating beastmasters like they smelled of the dung odor of their pets, or telling blu/thf to go dig a hole and bury himself. As a former blue/thf, it feels great to be able to level anything I want and be generally accepted.
#55 May 27 2015 at 2:23 PM Rating: Excellent
Another thing about that song, it does NOT deactivate upon movement. So if you do need to sidestep something, you can go right back to "casting."

Also, as I said before, this could be great during phase changes. You could time it so those 3 seconds of downtime happen when the mob is invulnerable anyway. I can think of instances in just about every fight where you could cast this with no loss to DPS. You could also cast it before starting the fight, and just go in with it active.

I have a feeling mastering this song is what will separate good bards from great bards.

Edited, May 27th 2015 1:25pm by Thayos
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#56 May 28 2015 at 7:03 AM Rating: Decent
Nashred wrote:
Thayos wrote:
Quote:
Unique is cool and all, but most people would probably rather be able to play the jobs they actually enjoy all the time. Being turned away from content or being forced to switch to a different job because it's "better" is no one's idea of fun.


One of the things Hio and I agree on is the fundamental flaw of the battle system, which is how fights unfold based on scripts as opposed to the actions of the players. It bothers me that there's really no such thing as "strategy" in ARR. Every fight is won the same way, as long as you have the same number of tanks, healers and DPS. By comparison, in FFXI, the way you'd win a fight might be completely different if you had two blms, or two rdms, or a summoner, or a thief, or a nin tank vs. a pld tank, etc.

In FFXI, I saw nothing wrong with forcing players to level up different jobs to be more optimal for different content... that seemed to be a reasonable price for being in a "living" game. But I understand that others take their MMOs less seriously, and they want to just be able to plop down and play without giving it much thought. It's just a shame that there can't be some kind of middle ground.


This is the best post period.
This is the number one problem I have had with the game.
Plus dungeons or trials it dont really allow you to do them with different party make ups.
I am tired of script. But they do it because it is easier. With no strategy people will eventually learn the fight.
Thing for me this is the major reason I got so bored with the game, plus the constant gear upgrades is pretty close.. As I said before crafting saved me..


Edited, May 27th 2015 3:17pm by Nashred


I saw a few great screenshots of things like Titan Ex axe burns (all WAR only!) and SMN burns. I once helped beat Garuda story mode as a 2x WHM party.

You can go into an instance however the heck you want if you build something in Party Finder, but right now you still need the required number of players. That is the only roadblock. Literally nothing else is stopping you from building and tackling content with a party exactly how you want.

Edited, May 28th 2015 9:03am by Catwho
#57 May 28 2015 at 7:09 AM Rating: Excellent
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You can go into an instance however the heck you want if you build something in Party Finder, but right now you still need the required number of players. That is the only roadblock. Literally nothing else is stopping you from building and tackling content with a party exactly how you want.


It sounds like they're doing something about that in HW.

There's been talk of:
- entering a duty with a premade group of fewer people than technically required.
- entering a duty solo with a chocobo. (dollars to donuts I still can't be in a normal queue with my chocobo out though... grumble grumble)
- entering a duty and being sync'd to the lowest allowable item level for the duty, so as to experience the content at its most challenging point.

I've heard from various sources that all of these are slated for HW, though the exact timeframe for implementation was never definite.

Please look forward to it?
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#58 May 28 2015 at 8:52 AM Rating: Excellent
The only way to genuinely mix things up with ARR boss fights is to be very overgeared. Otherwise, it's mainly just a whole lot of dodging between dps checks and tank swaps.
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#59 May 28 2015 at 8:55 AM Rating: Excellent
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Thayos wrote:
Another thing about that song, it does NOT deactivate upon movement. So if you do need to sidestep something, you can go right back to "casting."


Another reason why that translator would be better suited translating for something else... Bahyone (sp?) confirmed the movement aspect on the official boards. So, that completely changes how I view the song. So, it doesn't use mp, and I can move while it is up, and it gives me 25% to my attacks, and i get access to two extra attacks, and the downsides are that we have no autoattacks and all of our attacks now have a cast bar.

I can't decide at the moment which stance is going to be better. Depends on that cast bar and how much that special attack is going to do. Barrage is my burst, losing barrage during the song is going to be devastating.


Edited, May 28th 2015 10:34am by Valkayree
#60 May 28 2015 at 9:31 AM Rating: Good
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Catwho wrote:
Literally nothing else is stopping you from building and tackling content with a party exactly how you want.

Except for actually being able to find 3-7 other people who are interested in whatever you're trying to do.
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#61 May 28 2015 at 9:36 AM Rating: Good
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Karlina wrote:
Catwho wrote:
Literally nothing else is stopping you from building and tackling content with a party exactly how you want.

Except for actually being able to find 3-7 other people who are interested in whatever you're trying to do.


Easier in XIV than in XI, where in XIV everyone has a shot at the loot, in XI often times you would be donating time to help gear the colleagues. So in XIV it is a bit easier to find willing participants.
#62 May 28 2015 at 10:22 AM Rating: Good
Karlina wrote:
Catwho wrote:
Literally nothing else is stopping you from building and tackling content with a party exactly how you want.

Except for actually being able to find 3-7 other people who are interested in whatever you're trying to do.


Welcome to any unpopular job in FFXI.

I still remember at the start of ToAU having to convince people to allow me to go and level on my whm past 70ish or so in merit parties instead of waiting for another RDM until I built enough of a rep with the people who did that a lot that they knew I was solid enough to handle it.

(Don't even get me started on on how convincing people to do things with SCH or PUP for that matter.)
#63 May 28 2015 at 10:42 AM Rating: Decent
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Catwho wrote:
Nashred wrote:
Thayos wrote:
Quote:
Unique is cool and all, but most people would probably rather be able to play the jobs they actually enjoy all the time. Being turned away from content or being forced to switch to a different job because it's "better" is no one's idea of fun.


One of the things Hio and I agree on is the fundamental flaw of the battle system, which is how fights unfold based on scripts as opposed to the actions of the players. It bothers me that there's really no such thing as "strategy" in ARR. Every fight is won the same way, as long as you have the same number of tanks, healers and DPS. By comparison, in FFXI, the way you'd win a fight might be completely different if you had two blms, or two rdms, or a summoner, or a thief, or a nin tank vs. a pld tank, etc.

In FFXI, I saw nothing wrong with forcing players to level up different jobs to be more optimal for different content... that seemed to be a reasonable price for being in a "living" game. But I understand that others take their MMOs less seriously, and they want to just be able to plop down and play without giving it much thought. It's just a shame that there can't be some kind of middle ground.


This is the best post period.
This is the number one problem I have had with the game.
Plus dungeons or trials it dont really allow you to do them with different party make ups.
I am tired of script. But they do it because it is easier. With no strategy people will eventually learn the fight.
Thing for me this is the major reason I got so bored with the game, plus the constant gear upgrades is pretty close.. As I said before crafting saved me..


Edited, May 27th 2015 3:17pm by Nashred


I saw a few great screenshots of things like Titan Ex axe burns (all WAR only!) and SMN burns. I once helped beat Garuda story mode as a 2x WHM party.

You can go into an instance however the heck you want if you build something in Party Finder, but right now you still need the required number of players. That is the only roadblock. Literally nothing else is stopping you from building and tackling content with a party exactly how you want.

Edited, May 28th 2015 9:03am by Catwho



So are you agreeing with more disagreeing with me?
If I wanted to do a dungeon with two SMN could I do it?
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#64 May 28 2015 at 11:54 AM Rating: Excellent
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Nashred wrote:

If I wanted to do a dungeon with two SMN could I do it?


Probably, a good summoner is versatile. Pet, Dots, Heals, Raise, one can tank with titan egi, all you need really.

Four summoners could tear stuff up if they knew what they were doing.

But we have already seen 7 WAR 1 SCH clears on content, or 8 SCH clears.

As long as you have someone who can raise, someone who can heal, someone who can hold hate and take hits, and a way to beat enrage timers, you can clear any ffxiv endgame content.

Edited, May 28th 2015 12:54pm by Valkayree
#65 May 28 2015 at 12:47 PM Rating: Excellent
Quote:
and a way to beat enrage timers


I think that's one of the biggest reasons why true strategy is such a non-factor in XIV.

Most endgame XIV battles lean heavily on enrage timers and DPS checks (which are followed by insta-death mechanics), and they're tuned so that you've got to be almost perfect in order to clear these hurdles. In XI, enrage factors and life-or-death DPS checks weren't as prevalent, and also kiting was a much more feasible battle tactic. Enfeebling also played a big role in XI, and it's trivialized in XIV.

In XIV, about the only real strategy differences are whether to main tank vs. single tank something, but single-tanking isn't really a strategy for winning as much as it's a strategy for faster farms.

That said, more recent battles in XIV have evolved enough to be more interesting and less maddening than earlier scripted monstrosities such as Titan Ex. But still, these battles are less about on-the-fly skill and more just about memorization. I have enough fun in game to keep playing anyway though.
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#66 May 28 2015 at 2:05 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
Most endgame XIV battles lean heavily on enrage timers and DPS checks (which are followed by insta-death mechanics), and they're tuned so that you've got to be almost perfect in order to clear these hurdles.


This is only really true when doing the content at the lowest possible gear level. That's the only time you really have to struggle to beat an enrage timer. After that, it's seriously just to keep you from doing something silly like an all-WHM party.

Personally I prefer soft enrages, where the fight gradually just becomes impossible either due to a shrinking arena or a stacking buff or whatever. It feels more natural than a boss just saying "well f this, you're all dead now. Not really sure why I waited this long to tell you the truth."
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#67 May 28 2015 at 2:59 PM Rating: Excellent
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Archmage Callinon wrote:
Quote:
Most endgame XIV battles lean heavily on enrage timers and DPS checks (which are followed by insta-death mechanics), and they're tuned so that you've got to be almost perfect in order to clear these hurdles.


This is only really true when doing the content at the lowest possible gear level. That's the only time you really have to struggle to beat an enrage timer. After that, it's seriously just to keep you from doing something silly like an all-WHM party.

Personally I prefer soft enrages, where the fight gradually just becomes impossible either due to a shrinking arena or a stacking buff or whatever. It feels more natural than a boss just saying "well f this, you're all dead now. Not really sure why I waited this long to tell you the truth."


I agree. Once you get to the top tier gear-wise, you can skip mechanics and succeed. With that said, there are some times where 2 tanks are needed even with 130 gear (T10 when hallowing a charge if OT is vulnerable, T11 for secondary head , T12 revelation, T13 ankh morn), and times where you need two tanks to keep adds away from one another so they don't get buffed (i.e. T10, T11).

So you need to be able to have the required amount of people needed to run the desired mechanics too.
#68 May 28 2015 at 9:24 PM Rating: Decent
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Laxedrane wrote:
Karlina wrote:
Catwho wrote:
Literally nothing else is stopping you from building and tackling content with a party exactly how you want.

Except for actually being able to find 3-7 other people who are interested in whatever you're trying to do.


Welcome to any unpopular job in FFXI.

I still remember at the start of ToAU having to convince people to allow me to go and level on my whm past 70ish or so in merit parties instead of waiting for another RDM until I built enough of a rep with the people who did that a lot that they knew I was solid enough to handle it.

(Don't even get me started on on how convincing people to do things with SCH or PUP for that matter.)



DRK was the only job I leveled...
#69 May 29 2015 at 2:17 AM Rating: Good
Edited, May 24th 2015 4:23am by Belcrono [/quote]
I think most people who don't like summoner right now are the one's in the same boat with you. They see summons as a colossal entity rather than a fairy type creature that summons are now.

[/quote]

SMN is one job I don't play, I levelled it and if its needed I will. In XI it was almost perfectly done.

If there was one thing I didn't like about the Job Classes SMN would be my top 3. Then again instead of whining about it all day I simply don't play that job. :)

Edited, May 29th 2015 4:17am by Lonix
#70 May 29 2015 at 2:31 AM Rating: Decent
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The FF15 summons are f***ing insane.
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#71 May 29 2015 at 2:45 AM Rating: Good
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Hyrist wrote:
The people that are most upset are the old School Summoner fans due to their idea that each new summon should come with its own unique set of skills (Ala FFX Era on.)

In previous FF games the Summons were good for one spell. Maybe that spell could vary based on condition, and that's it for the summons. And that's why we have so many of them to start.


They could incorporate more Summons in the form of powerful high cooldown abilities. Summon Doomtrain does some massive aoe ability with a 4 min CD, Summon Ramuh grants a party buff on a 10 min CD, etc.

Edited, May 29th 2015 4:47am by BrokenFox
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#72 May 29 2015 at 8:03 AM Rating: Good
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BrokenFox wrote:
Hyrist wrote:
The people that are most upset are the old School Summoner fans due to their idea that each new summon should come with its own unique set of skills (Ala FFX Era on.)

In previous FF games the Summons were good for one spell. Maybe that spell could vary based on condition, and that's it for the summons. And that's why we have so many of them to start.


They could incorporate more Summons in the form of powerful high cooldown abilities. Summon Doomtrain does some massive aoe ability with a 4 min CD, Summon Ramuh grants a party buff on a 10 min CD, etc.

Edited, May 29th 2015 4:47am by BrokenFox

Exclusive character Limit breaks that cost absurd mp, make it happen and that would be one plus for the combat. The egi would transform to a colossal form for the big move then revert back to egi form. They could do this for black mage as well for like Comet, Ultima, Flare, etc.
#73 May 29 2015 at 12:12 PM Rating: Excellent
Archmage Callinon wrote:
Personally I prefer soft enrages, where the fight gradually just becomes impossible either due to a shrinking arena or a stacking buff or whatever. It feels more natural than a boss just saying "well f this, you're all dead now. Not really sure why I waited this long to tell you the truth."


Maat says hi. Smiley: grin

Took me forever to convince an LS friend that beating Maat on MNK wasn't about boosting VIT and DEF to survive his attacks, it was about killing him so fast he didn't get to them.
#74 May 29 2015 at 1:33 PM Rating: Good
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Laverda wrote:
Archmage Callinon wrote:
Personally I prefer soft enrages, where the fight gradually just becomes impossible either due to a shrinking arena or a stacking buff or whatever. It feels more natural than a boss just saying "well f this, you're all dead now. Not really sure why I waited this long to tell you the truth."


Maat says hi. Smiley: grin

Took me forever to convince an LS friend that beating Maat on MNK wasn't about boosting VIT and DEF to survive his attacks, it was about killing him so fast he didn't get to them.


That was the plan for Maat on pretty much every DPS class. I remember killing him on my Dark Knight in like 15 seconds. Daedalus Wings and Mithrakabobs are your friend.

Edited, May 29th 2015 3:34pm by BrokenFox
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#75 May 29 2015 at 1:36 PM Rating: Decent
Thayos wrote:

One of the things Hio and I agree on is the fundamental flaw of the battle system, which is how fights unfold based on scripts as opposed to the actions of the players.


Well, no one is perfect.
#76 May 29 2015 at 2:28 PM Rating: Excellent
Quote:
Well, no one is perfect.


Zing!
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