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#77 Jun 04 2015 at 12:06 PM Rating: Decent
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
Catwho wrote:
Like I said earlier, the position you want your game to be in is the game that people return to after they quit.

I think that's exactly what they're banking on. That's another benefit of being a F2P/P2P hybrid MMO. You have the people who enjoy the game enough that they don't care how frantic the pace of content releases who will subscribe. You also have tons of other players who either play just because it's free, they play it intermittently because they don't have the time to justify an MMO subscription, or they are career MMO-hoppers.

The general population is never satisfied with the content updates they receive for subscription based MMOs because to be fair, they're not much better than some of the F2P MMOs. When they get fed up or bored, they either go try something new or go back to something familiar.

I know I've probably beaten the horse into glue by now, but your comment really brings the point to light. I'm on record as stating that starting a second MMO alongside a current, very successful(though not currently) MMO is a bad idea. I weighed the pros first and the cons last simply because the cons far outweigh the pros, but the one solid pro for it was that they could've had that 'fallback' MMO on lock.

The way I see it, that would only work well if...

1) FFXI were F2P
and/or
2) FFXI were still creating at least enough content to keep those players busy for the few months they were waiting for new content in XIV

At the very least(and purely from a business standpoint), SE should have allowed for a subscription to XIV to allow free access to FFXI. If you wanted to play XI only then you'd pay a subscription fee, but if you subscribed to XIV then you could play both.

Players get more for their subscription. Not only do they keep the option to login to XIV whenever they want, but the added boost in players who do 'fallback' to XI makes that game feel more alive. Going further, they could have also staggered their content updates so that XI was receiving updates as interest in recently released content for XIV tapers off. SE wins because they retain subscriptions and those subs are technically for XIV so the IGN articles they pay for would actually hold some weight.

The only variable in all of this is the FFXI-based app. Yoshi himself said that content justifies subscription fees so unless that content is somehow funneled through the app, charging for FFXI is questionable at best. Again, not a final condemnation until we see how it plays out.
Edited, Jun 1st 2015 5:46pm by FilthMcNasty

Another reason why F2P/B2P hybrids are phasing out most P2P is that content created is leaning more towards more content/less time consuming versus the old way of slower content/time consuming. Though not popular, it is an inevitability that comes when content time consumption is lessened to attract a casual market. That is, the faster content is consumed, the faster players expect more content or leave. FFXI was never going to get a millions plus playerbase, but I am almost certain that they held 500k active subscribers over the whole course of it's first eight years of life.

That says something in today's world. People play Skyrim or Dark Souls for hundreds or thousands of hours and they didn't get content every 1-3 months over a course of years. If the content is deep, meta, thought provoking, unique, or highly customizable. It hooks the player and makes it a game they always come back to. Take Tera, really bland in story, quests, and side content. It just does one thing most mmorpgs didn't do before which is true action combat. They now have twenty million registered accounts and I find myself returning to it again and again just as I return to FFXI often. I breeze through other mmos and enjoy the initial max character then the boredom sets in and I mmo hop usually never returning to most mmos.
#78 Jun 04 2015 at 10:15 PM Rating: Good
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sandpark wrote:
FFXI was never going to get a millions plus playerbase, but I am almost certain that they held 500k active subscribers over the whole course of it's first eight years of life.

I'm not sure I can agree here. XI didn't start losing players until they went with the less content but more frequent update cycle of the mini-xpacs. Up through ToAU, XI had been consistently growing. Abyssea also saw XI shed a number of players, but I'd imagine this was more due to people who had poured their life force into acquiring items and gear they thought would stand time's test being jilted because that was overturned. It had simply been too long with SE saying there were no plans for level cap increase for it to go over well.

I think the shift is happening more on the player's side rather than with the actual games or the developers. Players are realizing that they don't have to champion a single game or MMO. If you're playing varied games then you're more likely to pinpoint what it is that you like or don't like about those games. Either way, F2P is allowing for that shift and getting a lot more exposure to games that they never had in the first place.

You mention TERA and I've recently seen several of the more popular WoW streamers trying it out. They didn't know it existed prior to seeing it on Steam. The fact that you can download and play it without any entry barrier has opened that game up to an incredible about of exposure. It would probably never happen, but had XI gone F2P and made available through Steam, I think they would shatter the million man player base number even now.

Even WoW is technically F2P when you consider that you can purchase game time with in-game gold. Granted you need a few alternate characters to do it, but you can completely fund your subscription on follower missions. Literally logging in for 5 mins at a time, twice a day will cover it. I feel like if they hadn't introduced the WoW token, the numbers would have fallen even further than they recently did.


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#79 Jun 05 2015 at 7:22 AM Rating: Good
http://uk.ign.com/articles/2015/06/05/meet-the-man-who-redeemed-final-fantasy

Interesting article to read. To what he's saying seems similar to what I have said all along about F2P.

As for XI never getting a large fan base, I actually agree. That's coming from me who frankly loved XI. Problem was it was never easy to get in to.

Large player base games especially WoW were always considered to be jump in and play. FFXI was always that game which lets face it, required more time to do the basic of stuff, spend half your day reading web pages or being told what to do by another player. Only reason why I got any where was thanks to a real person.. who took me around and showed me what to do.

Without him I would have quit because I honestly didn't know what I was doing. FFXI took its playability similar to the old style RPG games that gave very little back but expected you to jump through hoops. Let's face it, we loved it, that's why we played it. Every step of the way felt like an Achievement. You didn't need an achievement system on XI. BUT having tried several times to get friends and other people on it - I only ever succeeded in one person. Only reason she got in to it was because she was my other half at the time so she wanted to join in on me. Spent a lot of time being her PL/showing her the ropes.

When I first joined XIV I needed no guidance at all really for quite a while, same when I played WoW and even some other MMOs.

Edited, Jun 5th 2015 9:27am by Lonix
#80 Jun 05 2015 at 7:55 AM Rating: Decent
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Lonix wrote:
http://uk.ign.com/articles/2015/06/05/meet-the-man-who-redeemed-final-fantasy

Interesting article to read. To what he's saying seems similar to what I have said all along about F2P.

As for XI never getting a large fan base, I actually agree. That's coming from me who frankly loved XI. Problem was it was never easy to get in to.

Large player base games especially WoW were always considered to be jump in and play. FFXI was always that game which lets face it, required more time to do the basic of stuff, spend half your day reading web pages or being told what to do by another player. Only reason why I got any where was thanks to a real person.. who took me around and showed me what to do.

Without him I would have quit because I honestly didn't know what I was doing. FFXI took its playability similar to the old style RPG games that gave very little back but expected you to jump through hoops. Let's face it, we loved it, that's why we played it. Every step of the way felt like an Achievement. You didn't need an achievement system on XI. BUT having tried several times to get friends and other people on it - I only ever succeeded in one person. Only reason she got in to it was because she was my other half at the time so she wanted to join in on me. Spent a lot of time being her PL/showing her the ropes.

When I first joined XIV I needed no guidance at all really for quite a while, same when I played WoW and even some other MMOs.

Edited, Jun 5th 2015 9:27am by Lonix


This is true.. I remember my first day.. I had no idea what to do. There was a little guide that ran you through a couple of quest packaged with the game. I played for a half a day and knew nothing. I had no weapon, I didn't even know where to get one. Thankfully I had a friend who played before and ran me through the basics. After that is is pretty easy though to figure stuff out.The game for sure was not new user friendly. But that was the appeal to me, you had do be die hard to have good gear.

FFXIV any moron can have a full gear set, it is the complete opposite and way beyond casual. I think if it were some where in the middle there would not be discussions like this. I think it is one of the things that turns me off. I play allot but there is no reward for it. They would rather reward those that spend money in the cash shop with rare items than those that put in the time..


Edited, Jun 5th 2015 10:08am by Nashred
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#81 Jun 05 2015 at 8:36 AM Rating: Good
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They would rather reward those that spend money in the cash shop with rare items than those that put in the time..


There's no gear in the cash shop.

And if you honestly think that coil is super easy casual sauce #1, you're out of your mind.
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#82 Jun 05 2015 at 8:38 AM Rating: Default
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FilthMcNasty wrote:

You mention TERA and I've recently seen several of the more popular WoW streamers trying it out. They didn't know it existed prior to seeing it on Steam. The fact that you can download and play it without any entry barrier has opened that game up to an incredible about of exposure. It would probably never happen, but had XI gone F2P and made available through Steam, I think they would shatter the million man player base number even now.

Even WoW is technically F2P when you consider that you can purchase game time with in-game gold. Granted you need a few alternate characters to do it, but you can completely fund your subscription on follower missions. Literally logging in for 5 mins at a time, twice a day will cover it. I feel like if they hadn't introduced the WoW token, the numbers would have fallen even further than they recently did.

I can agree with this. Usually mmos start off slow and you don't get into the heart of the mmo until mid-game and systems start opening up. It is hard for a gamer to be asked to pay for the time reaching the point where those systems open up. When a game is F2P they get to see how battle gets better as you progress and get a feel for what types of systems the game offers.

I don't get why Square is doing this to FFXI. If they would just do a graphical over haul like WoW did and develop a good F2P conversion. It could be a place for people on the fence for a Final Fantasy mmo. Suddenly that weight of hundreds of hours to progress pre-zilart would not be as demanding but rather seen as a boon. An mmo to get lost in for free for a time, group with friends in the open world with a battle system that requires synergy.

H@ll, they could even tie it into the sub fee for FFXIV. If you are currently subscribed to FFXIV, you get access to these features in XI.
1.All expansions
2.Monthly experience rings
3.Monthly store currency
#83 Jun 05 2015 at 8:44 AM Rating: Decent
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Archmage Callinon wrote:
Quote:
They would rather reward those that spend money in the cash shop with rare items than those that put in the time..


There's no gear in the cash shop.

And if you honestly think that coil is super easy casual sauce #1, you're out of your mind.


Coil is as scripted as any other content in the game. Yoship gets irritated if you say Final Coil is easy or easier than second coil and anyone who actually does the coil, pre or post echo can attest to them being actually easy. Instant death mechanics are literally the only thing that makes it hard. T13 is the only exception where it shovels damage down your throat like cheesecake.

T10? Just know how to do tethers and charges, not exactly rocket science. Hell WoD is harder than T10.

T11? First true dps check on add phase then know how to do tethers, e.g tank tethers stay on a..green b..blue c marker...easy.

T12? Done NUMEROUS ways but the easiest turn of the 4.

T13? Done a few ways but is very, very easy. The problem is do you not only meet the HP check, but do you know how to use common sense? That's the only thing that makes it hard.

No, you do not need statics. No you don't need "omg so much time." I understand on some servers like Balmung it could be virtually impossible to do content but in terms of design? There's a reason people want Alexander to be tough content and a reason Yoship is throwing coil bosses/mechanics into the newb dungeons - if they weren't casual sauce, he wouldn't dare introduce them into content everyone accesses because it would be "too hard".

As for cashshop, i'm neither for or against it, but the amount of use it gets now don't be surprised. Just seriously don't be surprised because he knows people will pay for it. SE is a business, they'll go with with it if they see fit. Every MMO does it these days, it's basically a standard.
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#84 Jun 05 2015 at 9:00 AM Rating: Excellent
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And if you honestly think that coil is super easy casual sauce #1, you're out of your mind.


Unlike Hio, I agree with this statement.

Like Hio, I do believe the battles in this game suffer from script problems... but I don't think that makes them easy. It just means there isn't the same element of strategy like you'd find in XI, because success isn't dictated by creativity, but by your ability to continually dance around (or DPS through) each mechanic.

Coil is hard. There's a reason why so few people (myself included) have beaten Final Coil... and if it weren't for my FC, I'd still be stuck in second coil.

Do you need a static to beat all of coil? Technically, no. The battles are in the DF, and they can be beaten. But are you likely to clear all of coil through the DF? That's a big "hell no." While I know people who've been lucky on pickup parties in lesser turns, I don't know a single non-FC/static group that made it through the DF with more than a couple "at-large" picks. It's the incredibly scripted nature of these fights that essentially REQUIRES a static, because if just one person doesn't know a little piece of the script, then the group has almost no chance of succeeding. A static is almost essential to ensure that everyone learns the script at the same pace and is on the same page for the fight.

My static for second coil struggled for weeks just to clear Turn 6, because every week we'd have to get a couple new people from the DF to fill out our ranks... and like clockwork, random people only seemed to know the fight up to a certain point, and they struggled with certain mechanics. The result? The rest of us got super good at dealing with those mechanics, but every week became a learning session for those who joined up with us.

So, yes, FFXIV is NOT a complete cakewalk. In fact, it's hard battles are way harder than anything I ever experienced in XI. The problem isn't "easy" vs. "hard" though, it's how the battles attempt to engage players. In XI, players could win battles by being creative, and being creative is fun. In XIV, that's just really not the case... XIV's hardcore battle system is more of a puzzle game... once you can solve the puzzle, then yeah, of course it will be easy... but until then, it's super hard.

EDIT: Keep in mind, I can't really speak to Final Coil... I've only beaten T10, and although I know T11's script, I haven't found a party yet where everyone else is on the same page... but so far, for what it's worth, Final Coil does seem easier than Second Coil.

Edited, Jun 5th 2015 8:01am by Thayos
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#85 Jun 05 2015 at 9:00 AM Rating: Default
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Archmage Callinon wrote:
Quote:
They would rather reward those that spend money in the cash shop with rare items than those that put in the time..


There's no gear in the cash shop.

And if you honestly think that coil is super easy casual sauce #1, you're out of your mind.


I didn't say there was gear in the cash shop..

What special drops from coil?.. With coild gear in 3 month there is better gear, All the work for coil and tomes gear is just as good and some is better. No reason to even do coil as was proven by the numbers. Coil was fail. Coil is more scripted and just dodge affects is really is not that tuff. If you have a good group that wants to spend time learning more scripted stuff. That is the real hard part with coil is getting a group.Coil is unforgiving and if everyone does not move together or do what there job is it is over. It is mainly practice.


My point is you put gear in coil that is far out better and is bis for longer periods it would be worth doing.







Edited, Jun 5th 2015 11:08am by Nashred
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#86 Jun 05 2015 at 9:06 AM Rating: Excellent
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I didn't say there was gear in the cash shop.. What special drops from coil?.. All the work for coil and tomes gear is just as good and some is better. No reason to even do coil as was proven by the numbers. Coil was fail.


In my opinion, the biggest reward of doing coil is the storyline... basically wrapping up the remnants of the ARR saga.

But coil was "fail," I'll agree there. It was way too inaccessible, and the fights were too unforgiving for something with weekly lockouts. SE essentially made people choose between helping their friends or pursuing rewards; SE also took progression out of the FCs and forced people to progress in eight-man statics with very little room for flexibility. That was a bad decision.

Looks like SE learned its lesson, though, as Alexander in HW will have a hard more and story mode... and no more weekly lockouts.

Edited, Jun 5th 2015 8:06am by Thayos
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#87 Jun 05 2015 at 9:08 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
I didn't say there was gear in the cash shop


You didn't use the word but that was absolutely the implication.

Quote:
What special drops from coil?


Gear? I feel like you're asking something different here, but I'm not sure what.

Quote:
All the work for coil and tomes gear is just as good and some is better.


Itemization becomes a thing there. But the fact of the matter is, tome gear requires an enormous amount of time to both obtain and upgrade to get a full set. It's a tradeoff of either doing hard content for gear or putting in a lot of time on easier content for gear. That's not only the result, it's also the stated design goal.

Quote:
No reason to even do coil as was proven by the numbers.


How about clearing the most difficult content in the game? Is that a reason to do coil? Besides a lot of the gear in coil is better itemized than the tome gear (not all but a lot). A lot of people complain about there being only one piece of gear per item level and ignore the fact that there's probably more than one if they look outside the tome vendor list.

Quote:
Coil was fail.


I disagree. Coil just wasn't mandatory in order to raise your item level. There's a huge difference.
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#88 Jun 05 2015 at 9:10 AM Rating: Decent
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Thayos wrote:
Coil is hard. There's a reason why so few people (myself included) have beaten Final Coil... and if it weren't for my FC, I'd still be stuck in second coil.


Here, i'll tl;dr why Coil is "hard"

T10 - "Melee, you're handling tethers unless you get heat lightning debuff. If no Melee, mark 1/2 for tether on 2 ranged."

(Tether goes out)
(No one moves in for it.)

Wipe slowly ensues.

It's actually only hard because people make it hard by refusing to or simply too slow to deal with mechanics. This is why despite being obsolete as ****, T5 is still a roadblock, people simply refuse to pick up on mechanics. That doesn't mean per design it's hard, it simply means people make it harder than it is. Like twisters..what is so hard about moving in a circle or straight line back for the mechanic? Nothing. Yet it wipes PLENTY of groups if you even get past dive bombs.

Few people have beaten FC because they can't pick up on mechanics, not the difficulty, which is why as I said, it's WIDELY accepted that FC is on the easier side. Look at First Coil, it was tough, but also easy..but T2 had such a finesse to it that when people learned about the efficient route then enrage tactic, it became the easiest. (Just heal spam through it.) or you could pass rot, the easiest coil mechanic ever, but people failed that no matter what. Second coil T7 was what made or broke people pre-nerf. It was actually tough. Post nerf people honestly don't know how to not tunnelvision and thus petrify people and thus build stacks on Medusa and thus wipe everyone.

T7 is literally..turn away when you have the cone. LoS a cyclops when you have circle (shirek)..people fail that. So can you go in blind and clear it? Not really as you don't know the the script. Is it difficult because of the script? Not really, it's because of the players failing it. You can sit in a Turn for 70 minutes and people make the same mistakes.

Over.
and Over
And Over
and Over.

It wouldn't be bad if people actually progressed or got better...people tend to get worse as time goes on.

Quote:
once you can solve the puzzle, then yeah, of course it will be easy... but until then, it's super hard.


Therein lies the problem - Until you have people stop trying to shove the triangle peg in the circle hole, it will always be "difficult".
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#89 Jun 05 2015 at 9:24 AM Rating: Default
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Thayos wrote:
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I didn't say there was gear in the cash shop.. What special drops from coil?.. All the work for coil and tomes gear is just as good and some is better. No reason to even do coil as was proven by the numbers. Coil was fail.


In my opinion, the biggest reward of doing coil is the storyline... basically wrapping up the remnants of the ARR saga.

But coil was "fail," I'll agree there. It was way too inaccessible, and the fights were too unforgiving for something with weekly lockouts. SE essentially made people choose between helping their friends or pursuing rewards; SE also took progression out of the FCs and forced people to progress in eight-man statics with very little room for flexibility. That was a bad decision.

Looks like SE learned its lesson, though, as Alexander in HW will have a hard more and story mode... and no more weekly lockouts.

Edited, Jun 5th 2015 8:06am by Thayos


It is scary we agree more and more. Actually we have agreed on stuff in the past.

I am just looking for reasons to keep playing since I have so much time into this game. I still have not pre-ordered the expansion.

FF lore does not mean that much to me but I can see what you are saying there too.. I have played very little FF games other than FFXI but I can certainly understand the lore and why too finish it for that. There are those who do it just do it or say they did it. There are those who just want to do all content. I wanted to do it just to do it but after Bartel left Zam FC it went on a slow decline and it was so hard to get a group together. Me finding a group was hard, you know how that was.

The thing about coil to me is always seemed to grindy and if I am going to grind I want high rewards.

In FFXI I felt like a great whm and I was sought after to do things with people.. In this game as a whm I feel more like I am leaning where to stand and no matter how much time I put into my job I dont feel any different than another player. I feel like skill is out the window especially as a DD. It is more about rotation and that feels scripted too. I know there is some skill in a job.

Another problem is other than wanting to finish The story for ffxi there is nothing else out there to play either. I hate WOW.







Edited, Jun 5th 2015 11:46am by Nashred
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#90 Jun 05 2015 at 9:36 AM Rating: Good
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Think you might be glossing over a few things regarding these fights.

Theonehio wrote:

T10? Just know how to do tethers and charges, not exactly rocket science. **** WoD is harder than T10.


Tether / Charge combo still gives pugs some trouble. And those are pretty much instadeath, even still. Rarely in WoD do you get instadeath, and when you do, one or two down won't make too big of a difference.

Theonehio wrote:

T11? First true dps check on add phase then know how to do tethers, e.g tank tethers stay on a..green b..blue c marker...easy.


The t9 lightning + heavy aoe dodge + line aoe dodge + T1 down simultaneously mechanic all happening at the same time can be pretty complicated for many folks who aren't practiced. Takes several tries to teach a clear pug not to stand in the bug zapper when adds come. And tethers rely on having two random people having to figure out how to run in the same direction on command or they die. And they need to figure out how to dodge the aoe without moving in front of the boss too long and getting swiped. Over and over again in farm parties, I find that this is still very challenging for most people. If a healer gets tethered and dies during that phase you are in trouble, and if the OT can't pick up hate during secondary head, that's a wipe.

Theonehio wrote:

T12? Done NUMEROUS ways but the easiest turn of the 4.


Easier now that you can push 3 bennus, but even still, muscling your way through the first two phases won't matter if you don't have a bard who can run bluefire/redfire, or healers who can pass the brand. In fact, of all the turns, the last phase of t12 is the most challenging for tanks. You rotate between standing 4 ticks in a fountain, to grabbing brand during flames of unforgiveness, to grabbing aggro on the boss after revelation, to buffing up for revelation, to dodging aoe mechanics. It is fun once you get the hang of it, but if you don't have experienced tanks, you are in for fun times. Saying t12 is easy is truly taking your tanks for granted.

Theonehio wrote:

T13? Done a few ways but is very, very easy. The problem is do you not only meet the HP check, but do you know how to use common sense? That's the only thing that makes it hard.


This one is the only one that really needs voice chat, but for a reason. Common sense alone won't help you know the timing for earthshaker, or making sure you are spread out enough to get out of the aoe effect of the blue spheres, knowing that you shouldn't take more than 2 stacks unless you are a tank, to knowing which add to take down first, and which to keep separated. Remembering to look for that tower and have someone in it. Knowing when to move the boss. Knowing that you should spread away from behind bahamut for megaflare, that during megaflare some will get hit first, some will have to stack, and some will get the aoe. Tanks have to know how to take a green tether in last phase so that dps don't get tornadoed. Common sense will absolutely not help you dodge divebombs. You need quick reflexes, a good connection, and your camera turn speed set to warp. And ankh morn is a dance, 1st step weak cds, 2nd step holmgang, 3rd step strong cds, 4th step hallowed ground, 5th step weak cds (but hope your dps are good).

Theonehio wrote:

No, you do not need statics. No you don't need "omg so much time." I understand on some servers like Balmung it could be virtually impossible to do content but in terms of design? There's a reason people want Alexander to be tough content and a reason Yoship is throwing coil bosses/mechanics into the newb dungeons - if they weren't casual sauce, he wouldn't dare introduce them into content everyone accesses because it would be "too hard".


Maybe they are just leveling up the content in baby steps for the crowd of players (big crowd) who don't participate in coil. They need more people trying out the new content, but they don't want it to be a shell shock. Your minority elite are always going to say it is too easy, and your majority casual aren't even going to say a word about it because they are afraid to try.

But while yes, I believe that T9 is the hardest content (mechanics wise) that the game has to offer, and I also believe that final coil is comparatively simpler than t9, or T7 upon introduction, the battles are still very much a challenge, and even t10 should not be dismissed as easier than WoD. 24 man content vs 8 man content is apples vs oranges in my opinion.


Edited, Jun 5th 2015 10:54am by Valkayree
#91 Jun 05 2015 at 9:49 AM Rating: Default
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Archmage Callinon wrote:
Quote:
I didn't say there was gear in the cash shop


You didn't use the word but that was absolutely the implication.

Quote:
What special drops from coil?


Gear? I feel like you're asking something different here, but I'm not sure what.

Quote:
All the work for coil and tomes gear is just as good and some is better.


Itemization becomes a thing there. But the fact of the matter is, tome gear requires an enormous amount of time to both obtain and upgrade to get a full set. It's a tradeoff of either doing hard content for gear or putting in a lot of time on easier content for gear. That's not only the result, it's also the stated design goal.

Quote:
No reason to even do coil as was proven by the numbers.


How about clearing the most difficult content in the game? Is that a reason to do coil? Besides a lot of the gear in coil is better itemized than the tome gear (not all but a lot). A lot of people complain about there being only one piece of gear per item level and ignore the fact that there's probably more than one if they look outside the tome vendor list.

Quote:
Coil was fail.


I disagree. Coil just wasn't mandatory in order to raise your item level. There's a huge difference.


I am not going to debate if you are going to put words in my mouth and try to tell me what I mean.. Read what I am saying and actually open your mind.
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#92 Jun 05 2015 at 9:58 AM Rating: Decent
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Nashred wrote:

How about clearing the most difficult content in the game? Is that a reason to do coil? Besides a lot of the gear in coil is better itemized than the tome gear (not all but a lot). A lot of people complain about there being only one piece of gear per item level and ignore the fact that there's probably more than one if they look outside the tome vendor list.


The exclusive "Final Witness" title, for some, is enough.

Personally, I run final coil because it is a really fast way to gear my alt classes and get a better mix and match of gear for my main classes so I can maximize my dps by getting as close to the acc cap as I can without wasting.

Also, 30 poetics per run is not bad. Faster than running expert roulette to cap poetics for the week, and better rewards.

#93 Jun 05 2015 at 10:05 AM Rating: Excellent
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It is scary we agree more and more.


Why is this scary?

You've always seemed like a reasonable poster who isn't out to complain just for the sake of complaining. And while FFXIV is my game of choice, it certainly has its weaknesses, and I'd love to see those weaknesses corrected just as much as the next guy.
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#94 Jun 05 2015 at 10:22 AM Rating: Good
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Thayos wrote:
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It is scary we agree more and more.


Why is this scary?

You've always seemed like a reasonable poster who isn't out to complain just for the sake of complaining. And while FFXIV is my game of choice, it certainly has its weaknesses, and I'd love to see those weaknesses corrected just as much as the next guy.



Thank you.. Sometimes people make me feel that way though...
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#95 Jun 05 2015 at 4:16 PM Rating: Decent
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Valkayree wrote:
Think you might be glossing over a few things regarding these fights.


Nope - Took into consideration the biggest reasons I've seen PUGs/DF failing the turns. For example:

Quote:
Tether / Charge combo still gives pugs some trouble. And those are pretty much instadeath, even still. Rarely in WoD do you get instadeath, and when you do, one or two down won't make too big of a difference.


Doesn't exactly change what I stated that knowing tether and charges is basically the brunt of this fight and what people mess up on. In terms of design, it's far easier than WoD, regardless of 8 vs 24 man (means WoD should be harder than it is but that's a different story altogether.) It's not really difficult, but at the same time you'll notice a LOT of causes of wipes, despite numerous explanations and practicing comes down to people just not doing the mechanics. A lot of times due to as they call it, tunnelvisioning. (When most content is "ZERG ZERG ZERG" sometimes you get conditioned into it.) So it's not necessarily hard on its own, just the players make it harder than it truly is.

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The t9 lightning + heavy aoe dodge + line aoe dodge + T1 down simultaneously mechanic all happening at the same time can be pretty complicated for many folks who aren't practiced.


It's a lot of mechanics but tethers have been the main downfall of most PUGs and DF (which is why the main nerfs they even did to FC were trash related or one of the T13 adds.) Tethers tend to be the hardest part for people purely because of not paying attention (It even shows up on the party list before model display) which is why I said, script aside, a lot of the difficulty comes from the people you're running with more than anything.

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Easier now that you can push 3 bennus, but even still, muscling your way through the first two phases won't matter if you don't have a bard who can run bluefire/redfire, or healers who can pass the brand. In fact, of all the turns, the last phase of t12 is the most challenging for tanks. You rotate between standing 4 ticks in a fountain, to grabbing brand during flames of unforgiveness, to grabbing aggro on the boss after revelation, to buffing up for revelation, to dodging aoe mechanics. It is fun once you get the hang of it, but if you don't have experienced tanks, you are in for fun times. Saying t12 is easy is truly taking your tanks for granted.


12 has always been easy - It was almost insulting easy in comparison to what you had to do with 10, 11 then suddenly 12 felt like a "calm before the storm" that is 13 where it ramps back up because nothing in the game puts out as much damage as 13 does. I've been on both the Tank and Healer end in my inital 10-13 clears. Then switched to BRD when we started to farm it or I do it solo through PF/DF. This is exactly why I said 12 is done numerous ways. We do it:

Tank 3
BRD 2
Healer 2

or

Tank 3
BRD 2
BRD destroys Fountain

As that gives the tanks ample room to do their thing. This is even before echo - While 4 was the "standard" way for tanks, we felt it simply pushed mechanics too close to each other.

The things that kills PUGs the most - Black/White Fire, the easiest mechanic of the fight, and the DPS check. DPS checks aren't necessarily difficulty when you think about it, since it's merely knowing how to do your rotation..which latency can **** with..especially Ninja. However, in comparison to all 4? 12 is indeed the easiest because Phoenix is not only a lot squishier..he doesn't exactly have that large of a phase shift compare to Imtoogood, Kaliya and Mr MacTruck. If anything, the first true phase is the hardest and the last phase is the easiest.

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This one is the only one that really needs voice chat, but for a reason. Common sense alone won't help you know the timing for earthshaker, or making sure you are spread out enough to get out of the aoe effect of the blue spheres


Our first clear was when our TS server host was down..so you don't -need- voice chat or it would have been built into the game. I get what you mean, but it's definitely do able without, which is where I said the common sense comes into play. Once again, script aside, it's honestly not that hard - the biggest challenge is meeting the HP check (since by time you're doing 13 you'll be meeting your DPS check regardless considering 12.) This is why on a first entry basis for everyone, of course it's challenging..that's true for any game, even Mario games, however design wise it's actually fairly simple and you pretty much explained why. T13 is just the MASSIVE amounts of damage thrown onto you compared to the actual mechanics. DBs are DBs no matter which turn. You know if you don't dodge it all hell will break loose, that's been true in 5, been true in 9 and will be true in 13 and beyond. The only change to 13's is you get two of them (for the most part) at once so you have to know how to dodge it. Just like you had to learn how to dodge 5 and 9s. Unless you cross streams it doesn't always mark instant death either is the surprising part..it's what comes after that will.

However when you get down to it..that's why people say in comparison to the other 2 coils (note: in comparison to the other "difficult content") it's actually on the easier side because compared to the push we had to do in first and second coil? it is easy, especially when you can be on par with a raider by going with Poetics Gear. First and Second coil you didn't have the luxury of being able to out gear it to help push you through it. People didn't collectively decide to say it's easier for the hell of it. All things is clearable with practice, look at Touhou Games, some people would find them impossible while others would blow through them while eating their favorite snack and watching game of thrones. The fact this game is MOSTLY weighed on a script with player input being the make or break...yea, players in the long run are why any content is truly challenging. It's team jumprope as some call it - If your WHM trips on a pebble at the wrong time..whoops, Kaliya will start to **** out nuclear missles that will wipe you off the face of the planet. All because your WHM tripped on a pebble, so everyone has to suffer.

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Maybe they are just leveling up the content in baby steps for the crowd of players (big crowd) who don't participate in coil. They need more people trying out the new content, but they don't want it to be a shell shock. Your minority elite are always going to say it is too easy, and your majority casual aren't even going to say a word about it because they are afraid to try.


This is the problem - If they're going baby steps...you'd assume by time they introduced Final Coil they would have been throwing "coil mechanics in other content", not wait almost 3 years later to slowly ramp up the difficulty. It makes sense to go from easy > harder eventually, but the way they go about it is so weird. It's not even the elite that says it's too easy, pretty universally people find this game easy..yet you run into the group of people who make even LoTA seem like the hardest **** you can ever set foot in - which again goes back to not only the script..but the players.

Expansions are usually the best time to start shifting gears, but as said, the majority of the people are the ones that can barely handle difficult content, even when you have the devs nerfing things down to the point the boss may as well just walk out the door and hand you the gear...people will trip and fall off the arena and complain it's STILL too hard.
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#96 Jun 08 2015 at 8:45 AM Rating: Decent
Thayos wrote:
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I didn't say there was gear in the cash shop.. What special drops from coil?.. All the work for coil and tomes gear is just as good and some is better. No reason to even do coil as was proven by the numbers. Coil was fail.


In my opinion, the biggest reward of doing coil is the storyline... basically wrapping up the remnants of the ARR saga.

But coil was "fail," I'll agree there. It was way too inaccessible, and the fights were too unforgiving for something with weekly lockouts. SE essentially made people choose between helping their friends or pursuing rewards; SE also took progression out of the FCs and forced people to progress in eight-man statics with very little room for flexibility. That was a bad decision.

Looks like SE learned its lesson, though, as Alexander in HW will have a hard more and story mode... and no more weekly lockouts.

Edited, Jun 5th 2015 8:06am by Thayos


Yeah spot on. It's also why SE is adding a phase option, allowing people to practise the phases.

Problem is, you spend hours and hours T9 being a prime example of learning each phase. And learning about the mechanics isn't easy when you need everyone to learn on the same level. You also need to avoid the mistakes, even the Experienced people in our FC have made them. Each mistake costs a run, 2 runs ruined by experienced players. Then you have us amateurs who are also making mistakes and by mistakes I mean we know what to do but in that moment either luck or running the wrong way - death.

I'm always happy for COIL gear to be the real TAIL end of top level gear. Rightly so due to the difficulty level. Only reason why I want to get Coil done is the story but if you miss out like I did in getting T6 I think it is done, you end up skipping story and waiting till its all done to actually watch CSs (like me). The recent T9 runs have almost been finished and looks like the FC could be heading to T10 next meaning that's another two T's I need to catch up.

Got no static and DF runs have made me look like a COIL Pro.......

Still, as I said all I want to do is the Story.
#97 Jun 08 2015 at 9:46 AM Rating: Excellent
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So late to this discussion, but I was under the impression (based on looking at financial reports/losses and other articles, industry job salary standards, etc) that ARR was just shy of 300 million to make? (including advertising and what not)

SWTOR took far longer to make and while it had a hell of a lot more voice over I think it hit ~280mil?
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#98 Jun 08 2015 at 10:16 AM Rating: Good
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SWTOR took far longer to make and while it had a **** of a lot more voice over I think it hit ~280mil?


The number I always heard thrown around for SWTOR was 500m and mostly because of the 16 fully voiced class questlines.
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#99 Jun 08 2015 at 3:50 PM Rating: Excellent
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Theonehio wrote:
So it's not necessarily hard on its own, just the players make it harder than it truly is.


I'll give you that.

Theonehio wrote:

As that gives the tanks ample room to do their thing. This is even before echo - While 4 was the "standard" way for tanks, we felt it simply pushed mechanics too close to each other.


Hmm, I stand 4 in the fountain on my paladin and make it back to swap brand no problem. Think the real problem is that either your warrior is too worried about his DPS or your tanks haven't ever had to pass brand in that 1st phase as bard. I've noticed that is the one spot where most every tank screws up. They forget to come and stand on me when flames is being cast, and I have to go to them as they are taking hate from the side.

Theonehio wrote:

If anything, the first true phase is the hardest and the last phase is the easiest.


I will agree that this is the case for everyone except the tank.

Theonehio wrote:

you don't -need- voice chat or it would have been built into the game. I get what you mean, but it's definitely do able without,


True. Knowing your role inside and out does not require communication. I've been in groups where we did fantastic all the way until the tethers, past all the hard parts, but then a few of the dps decided they would bring the tether / tornado to the middle, so we can all get blown back into the wall. Three wipes in a row. Fun times. And we had voice chat. So I'll give you that.

Theonehio wrote:
DBs are DBs no matter which turn.


DB in 13 is easy, stack mid, you see red icon, look for bahamut, find him, good. Once you see green icon, pop sprint (if you can) and head left of him or right (determined beforehand) while looking for other dragon. Then adjust to make sure you are out of that second dragon's straight line of damage, spread out (but not in the middle) after it passes for megaflare, then stack if you get the icon during the after the aoe puddles and all is well.

T5 DB you stack in a hole and run out then back in, no big deal.

T9 DB the order is a bit more chaotic. I could never figure it out myself but I've cleared it 20+ times. Fortunately I've always had someone marking it.

Theonehio wrote:

it's actually on the easier side because compared to the push we had to do in first and second coil? it is easy, especially when you can be on par with a raider by going with Poetics Gear.


Only for the weapon, but yet I will agree, the augmented ironworks 130 weapons are equivalent to the 135 dreadwyrm weapons for some reason. That wasn't the case with 2nd coil. My rosenbogen is no where near as good as my t9 bow. But for armors, the current coil armors have always been equivalent to the top tier upgraded tomestone (or AF2 in the case of coil1) armor.

Theonehio wrote:

It's not even the elite that says it's too easy, pretty universally people find this game easy..


This is my only disagreement with what you are saying. When 90% of your stance is geared towards "it's not necessarily hard on its own, just the players make it harder than it truly is," you can not follow that up with "pretty universally people find this game easy". It's contradictory.

From my travels in the FFXIV game environment, I estimate that 85% of the players can't even get to final coil, 10% are in final coil but can't beat the content, 4% have cleared T10-T12, and 1% have cleared T13.

So, if your "pretty universally people find this game easy" statement is true, and we aren't talking about the 1% elite who have cleared t13 (and know it to be easy), we can assume that most of those people finding the game easy have not even attempted all the content.

So, while you and I can vouch that t13 is easy to us, we can't say that universally the game is easy, when approximately 85% of the players haven't even played the hardest content to qualify for a vote.
#100 Jun 08 2015 at 4:09 PM Rating: Excellent
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It's not even the elite that says it's too easy, pretty universally people find this game easy..


This would be true if you said, "pretty universally, people find most of this game easy." Because the majority of people do not believe coil is easy... at least not until you've beaten it enough times to be fully comfortable with the song & dance routine.

Gamers seem to have a hard time with finding words other than "easy" or "hard." It's like how gear is either "brand new" or "obsolete." Or in FFXI, when gear was either "HQ" or "NQ."

Perhaps when the level cap goes up -- and if coil fights aren't synched -- THEN they'll become truly easy. But they're still hard enough that most people can't complete it without help from others who know the fight inside and out.
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#101 Jun 08 2015 at 4:21 PM Rating: Excellent
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Easy is Megaman with tons of spare energy tanks and the right weapon for the boss. You can pretty much ignore most the fight mechanics and muscle through it you got health tanks in reserve in abundance if you mess up.

Normal is going through a Megaman boss with buster shot. Enemy follows a pattern, you can afford to mess up a few times before getting the pattern down, but if you're good at the tactics you can figure it out within your allotted lives.

Hard is a Megaman fight where the enemy is "Spikeman" Enemy follows a pattern that you can discern, but mess up once and you're dead and have to try again. There are also multiple phases to the fight.

THEN you have FFXIV. It's a scripted fight with multiple phases, and a single mess-up by any member of your party can get the whole raid killed.


Sure, it's still your same old pattern based combat like Megaman, but how it's treated is an entire world of difference. By no means is it 'easy'. It's pattern based is all. Once you know the pattern, it's a matter of executing it properly. Which makes it easy to learn, especially if you watch videos before hand, but much, much harder to execute.

Edited, Jun 8th 2015 6:23pm by Hyrist
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