As I've mentioned a few times before, I am not a huge fan of coil but I think its a nice option to have. It's really good that you don't have to do it for good gear. This was one thing that annoyed me with XI, to get good gear you HAD to do EndGame stuff that required hours and hours.. and hours
Coil, although requires hours and hours to learn once you picked up each raid its just a question of picking up the group. Although XI Endgame I found much MUCH easier compared to Coil XIV. Even with Echo and the occasional Nerf it still presents a challenge to learn each run because the mechanics are very important. In XI I would mainly be a healer and frankly I didn't have to do nothing but manage MP and keep everyone alive. I didn't have to dodge or do anything else, the make my life more interesting it was Double MB, Sleep or running around raising...
As much as I found T9 frustrating the other night, I do enjoy it (deep down). It's an option, I don't heavily do Coil but there is always something I can be doing. The new content is always challenging to learn, some times players struggle to pick up but again that's because you need the whole group to really do their job right.
The Dungeons are prime examples, not every run is the same (been spamming for relic). One run can go smoothly, very fast, the next run the tank may be able to fast run but struggle on the boss (last night this happened). Haukke Manor Tank completely ignored adds, DPS were not quick enough to take down and we wiped 3 times (even with me WHM throwing everything to DPS). Fast runs again make things FUN for me, having to keep a tank alive who may/not keep the hate while also switching to INT and spamming holy while being prepared to chuck BENE on to tank so I don't have to switch to MND and cure.
Its fun either way, that's the important part, something for everyone.
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Lonix wrote:
As I've mentioned a few times before, I am not a huge fan of coil but I think its a nice option to have. It's really good that you don't have to do it for good gear. This was one thing that annoyed me with XI, to get good gear you HAD to do EndGame stuff.
Or Craft, cuz you know, for quite awhile in the early days of XI, the BEST gear came from End-game system, meanwhile there were crafted pieces and BCNM type content that also dropped pieces that were actually better in some slots and for certain builds, e.g TP/Haste/Crit etc which you seemed to have forgotten I'm sure if you actually did truly play XI you'd remember back in the day how Hagun was the Great Katana to have for a Samurai outside of, obviously, Relic Bow/Katana (which some Sams in those days got the Bow). Also, there were assault type systems (e.g Nyzul) which wasn't considered true end-game as they weren't gated after you've completed a portion of the story (i.e Sky/Sea/Einherjar) and if we're playing semantics here, "end-game" simply means content you do at max level, much like people consider Crystal Tower and Primals in XIV "End-Game."
Also, yes you do have to do Coil for good gear if you care for BiS pieces. No ifs ands or buts. If you don't care, you don't have to do it.
So no, you're incorrect in that statement, in order to get "Good Gear" you had to do numerous things as not one spot was the sole dispenser of good gear because your various builds required gear from a little bit of every other content, much like XIV. Then comes when SE switched up XI's progression in order to balance out the push to 99 and introduced ilvls, it's very hard to try to differentiate what you do in XI versus what you do in XIV when it comes to having to x for good gear.
Quote:
Coil, although requires hours and hours
Exactly the same as XI, no way around it. It's the same concept. It takes awhile to get the hang of content in XI as it comes out, no one mastered anything in a short time and it required teamwork, especially in its prime. It however had a different battle system, meaning the flow of battle and mechanics were different. Especially in XI where mechanics don't always revolve around "if you do this you instantly die, if you so much as touch a WALL you instantly die", hell some monsters even won't let you zerg them "through phases" because they're actually designed to behave differently or have different resistances, something dropped altogether for XIV.
Quote:
Even with Echo and the occasional Nerf it still presents a challenge to learn each run because the mechanics are very important
A famous saying around these forums all through XI and 1.x days of XIV and official forums is: Instant death mechanics doesn't equal difficulty. So even with 9,999,999 HP, the fact most XIV end-game is littered with instant death mechanics doesn't make it harder than XI or any other MMO. Now that I think about it..Amon Ra from Ragnarok Online and any monster in the Laboratory is tougher than anything XIV has to offer and it doesn't rely on instant death.
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I didn't have to dodge or do anything else
Because XI didn't use that kind of battle system. That's like complaining about not having to pop potions or having to manage buffs and debuffs in Street Fighter. XI's version of WHM is exactly how most healers are in most RPGs and Games, their primary focus was keeping people alive. Since you're using XI as an example, the most you had to worry about in that battle system was spacing and player placement, because you didn't dodge things by mobility you simply didn't want to be caught in AoEs or Conals in general.
Edited, May 13th 2015 9:17am by Theonehio
Theonehio wrote:
Or Craft, cuz you know, for quite awhile in the early days of XI, the BEST gear came from End-game system, meanwhile there were crafted pieces and BCNM type content that also dropped pieces that were actually better in some slots and for certain builds, e.g TP/Haste/Crit etc which you seemed to have forgotten I'm sure if you actually did truly play XI you'd remember back in the day how Hagun was the Great Katana to have for a Samurai outside of, obviously, Relic Bow/Katana (which some Sams in those days got the Bow). Also, there were assault type systems (e.g Nyzul) which wasn't considered true end-game as they weren't gated after you've completed a portion of the story (i.e Sky/Sea/Einherjar) and if we're playing semantics here, "end-game" simply means content you do at max level, much like people consider Crystal Tower and Primals in XIV "End-Game."
You have answered your own question, "Situational" pieces. Hecate set, Kirin Osode, Nobles Tunic, RDM pieces all came from End Game. AF2 all came from End Game. I didn't say what so ever that EVERY piece came from End Game but you HAD to do End Game if you wanted anything remotely classed as good gear - okay lets be specific because you are nit picking and not for the first time. Gear SETS. For Relic last I checked you had to do Dyna to earn certain pieces which IS End Game. (Im talking Pre Abyssea). I know some gear was available outside aka the popular O Hat but it was an ACC piece. If you wanted to earn the best pieces you can get some outside but you had to do End Game if you want a full set or set pieces for WS/ACC or as you mentioned HASTE. That was one of the many complaints having to keep multiple sets just for a single job. You couldn't get away with NOT doing End Game - Don't believe me look back at your XI account and find the gear sets you wanted without a single End Game piece. Good Luck. Even worse if you have multi jobs - MAB as a BLM, Refresh as Healer, STR as a SAM, DEX as a THF. To earn the best pieces you couldn't avoid End Game.
XIV you can avoid COIL and gather full sets of GEAR through POETS alone for all the jobs. In XI you couldn't.
As for Hours and hours of learning, once you knew not to go on Auto Run it was essentially a "Follow the leader" you didn't have to learn much in comparison to COIL or even the likes of Primal Ex fights. I was LONIX from Sylph and had my hands in everything minus Relic. Spammed Dyna, Limbus, Sky, Savage, Sea and even the fun of Nyzul with its random floors.
It's not exactly the same as the likes of COIL, for XI it was much more "Know how to Stun as a DRK, Know how to Heal as a Healer, Know how to Tank as a Tank" It was more about knowing to do your job. In Dyna I didn't have to do anything more other then certain parts where parties would split (job based e.g. BLM). It didn't take hours and hours and multiple runs to learn. It did how ever require hours and hours just to maybe earn your drop.
It was rare for mistakes to happen from people who did more than a single run on any end game. By the time people reached this they knew how to do their jobs. So very wrong comparison to say "It takes hours just different to learn". If it took you that long to learn End Game in XI usually it was because you was new to any End Game.
Theonehio wrote:
A famous saying around these forums all through XI and 1.x days of XIV and official forums is: Instant death mechanics doesn't equal difficulty. So even with 9,999,999 HP, the fact most XIV end-game is littered with instant death mechanics doesn't make it harder than XI or any other MMO. Now that I think about it..Amon Ra from Ragnarok Online and any monster in the Laboratory is tougher than anything XIV has to offer and it doesn't rely on instant death.
So whats your point? I said COIL still presents a challenge even with the nerf/echo. Nit picking again.
Theonehio wrote:
Because XI didn't use that kind of battle system. That's like complaining about not having to pop potions or having to manage buffs and debuffs in Street Fighter. XI's version of WHM is exactly how most healers are in most RPGs and Games, their primary focus was keeping people alive. Since you're using XI as an example, the most you had to worry about in that battle system was spacing and player placement, because you didn't dodge things by mobility you simply didn't want to be caught in AoEs or Conals in general.
Again what's your point, I am not complaining about the system XI used. What I was stating as a Healer (because it was the job I never wanted to do at End Game but ended up being it due to me being one of the highly experienced healers at the time). Is it effectively required me to stand there and JUST do my job. My highlight was BLM on Dyna because it requires party splitting up and as a Nuker making sure we timed it right to instant kill a mob. OR kiting as a THF.
Again once you knew how to perform your job the rest was pretty easy. End Games was run more as an event with 1-3 Leaders who explained everything, made sure people didn't run around or AUTO Run. The difficulty was more trying to sneak past mobs e.g. Dyna.
You have shown no examples as to why XI was difficult, in fact you have not even said "Something that has been mentioned on this forum a lot over the years" lack of guidance/assistance and spending time on Websites looking at information. There was never "Learn the mechanics" of fights, instead of was "Know your job".
If you want to say the difficulty was being good at the job, I will give you that one. I saw a lot of bad nukers, healers and tanks over the years.
I look forward to more nit picking.
Edited, May 19th 2015 5:17am by Lonix
Edited, May 19th 2015 5:22am by Lonix
Lonix wrote:
XIV you can avoid COIL and gather full sets of GEAR through POETS alone for all the jobs. In XI you couldn't.
You avoid coil you avoid some best in slot pieces, much like in XI if you avoid certain content you avoid optimal build pieces because say you avoid sky/sea..cool, you can do nyzul isle or salvage, same concept of "you avoid x you can still get gear", that was the whole purpose of the assault system for example. Would you be the best? Nope, not in XI's specifications, but you can't deny that it's not the same concept. That's why I said unless you don't care about BIS and in some case, love bleeding Skill Speed or Accuracy, by all means, you can avoid Final Coil. The only real "skip content" possibilities is that the Relic weapon can be built to your specification, which means you don't have to do T13 for those weapons, gear wise however..no you can't skip it if you're going BiS as there's no crafted or alternate gear that fits in those slots. Poetics is nice in some regards, but they tend to have a silly secondary state you simply don't need or want.
If you plan to do no true end-game yeah, by all means skip it but until we know what the battle changes are you honestly only hurt yourself avoiding Final Coil.
Quote:
So whats your point? I said COIL still presents a challenge even with the nerf/echo. Nit picking again.
It's not nitpicking - If you say XI has no challenge but reference coil, a series of content that thrives on instant kills, that too isn't a challenge technically because people even on these forums have said instant kill mechanics isn't difficulty ;p
Quote:
What I was stating as a Healer (because it was the job I never wanted to do at End Game but ended up being it due to me being one of the highly experienced healers at the time). Is it effectively required me to stand there and JUST do my job.
My point was as I stated - The type of battle system FFXI utilized the healers didn't do much beyond healing. That was their role. Which is why Scholar being able to switch things up couldn't do what a WHM does as a main healer for numerous reasons. It's simply not that kind of battle system, so the comparison is hard to make because of the vastly different battle styles. Even in XIV your WHM isn't expected to nor going to put out a ton of DPS while main healing in certain content, but a SCH can for example because while WHM can add some DPS, SCH's base (Arcanist) was designed for DPS and unlike WHM, they have Lustrate that can allow them to immediately catch back up. With WHM you actually have to be damn near -perfect- to properly dps and heal in some of the end game content compared to SCH which has not only Lustrate but Selene/.Eos to do the heavy lifting while you DPS.
Quote:
You have shown no examples as to why XI was difficultt
Because it was not I that was talking about it's difficulty - you were the one stating it WASN'T difficult then proceeded to talk about how XIV has difficult content when the difficulty largely stems from:
1. Instant Death mechanics
2. How dumb x player is in your party.
You said it yourself:
Quote:
Again once you knew how to perform your job the rest was pretty easy
^ Is XIV as well..so again, how is XIV more difficult when both games are..essentially the same in that regard? XI has a different battle system with different types of mechanics due to that kind of battle system, much like XIV's battle system is more on the mobility level. Both games are mastered through time, you never went into XI content, day one, and absolutely mastered it, much like in XIV once you see the script you know what to do and can breeze through it because it's never unchanging, it's the same encounter every single time which is why people get pissed off at the: "I learn by doing!" people who refuse to look up the script on sometimes 4-7 month old content.
So say it's nitpicking all you want..that's essentially what you're doing.
Edited, May 19th 2015 10:20am by Theonehio
Who the hell cares about BiS gear if they aren't doing Coil? It's the only thing you need it for, and you really don't need it for that if you're in a good group. A set of WoD or Poetics will get you through anything currently in the game, including Coil.
Yelta wrote:
Raylo wrote:
There are definitely people like that out there, but there are also newbies who are more than capable of following instructions and getting the job done if given the chance. I'm at least willing to give them a chance to show me which one they are before I give up on them. The last few times Trials Roulette has given me Steps of Faith we've managed to clear within 2-3 attempts even with a handful of first timers in the party, and while that is a bit of a time inconvenience for me it's also a huge help to those who do need the clear.
I think it's a shame that so many people instantly quit when they get Steps of Faith, because IMO it's a really fun fight unlike anything else in the game. It's not really about fun for a lot of people, though...
The fight probably should've had some type of drop at the end.
I get this fight about every other day in roulette and there are always new people. I have had very good luck clearing it usually on the 2nd try. However someone needs to speak up and assign roles and make sure everyone understands what they are supposed to do before starting. If the first try fails it needs to be understood what went wrong and how to fix the issue(s).
It would have to be pretty derpy with several fails for me to even consider abandoning it.
Additional bonus tomes, seals, Gil, or a drop at the end would be nice especially since it usually takes more time to complete than any of the other trials and is required to be completed for Heavensward.
Edited, May 6th 2015 11:58am by Yelta
That's it exactly..
I really did not realise this fight was that hard. When the patch came out we beat it after a few tries and no one in our party had done it before. One person had read a little about it. I have had it a few times in DF roulette but we always beat it by second try. I really like this battle too because it is different than any dungeon.. Just can be a little long sometimes.
Last time we used a different strategy where you just focus on the dragon and leave the adds to the canons.. Hard on healer but way way faster.
I also agree a drop would make people stay as long as it was worth while.
Edited, May 20th 2015 1:32pm by Nashred
FFXI: Nashred
Server: Phoenix
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server: Ultros
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Turin wrote:
Who the **** cares about BiS gear if they aren't doing Coil? It's the only thing you need it for, and you really don't need it for that if you're in a good group. A set of WoD or Poetics will get you through anything currently in the game, including Coil.
Bis slot means little in this game nor is it needed.
Some best in slot gear is actually tomes gear. My opinion such easy to get gear (tomes) should not even be close to end game gear drops from like coil.
There really is no reason to do coil. If they made the gear actually way better or made it better for longer more people would want to do coil. Takes around 6 months the the gear is outdated anyway by new tomes gear. so you spend 4, 5 6 months trying to get through coil to Maybe get a drop.
Maybe give everyone a choice of what they want instead of some random drop. Make it worth while and people will do it.
Right now it aint. and by the time you finish a section of coil new gears is out or a new section of coil.
Edited, May 20th 2015 2:09pm by Nashred
FFXI: Nashred
Server: Phoenix
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server: Ultros
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Nashred wrote:
There really is no reason to do coil. If they made the gear actually way better or made it better for longer more people would want to do coil. Takes around 6 months the the gear is outdated anyway by new tomes gear. so you spend 4, 5 6 months trying to get through coil to Maybe get a drop.
Maybe give everyone a choice of what they want instead of some random drop. Make it worth while and people will do it.
Right now it aint. and by the time you finish a section of coil new gears is out or a new section of coil.
Maybe give everyone a choice of what they want instead of some random drop. Make it worth while and people will do it.
Right now it aint. and by the time you finish a section of coil new gears is out or a new section of coil.
Isn't that the goal though? To have new content soon after people finish the current batch to keep people from getting bored? People already complain about how boring it is to do the same few dungeons over and over for 4 months. I don't know about you, but I get tired of doing the same three dungeons over and over really quickly. Just imagine if you had to run everything for a year+ instead.
Oh wait, I don't have to imagine that. I played FFXI...
75 Rabbit/75 Sheep/75 Coeurl/75 Eft/75 Raptor/75 Hippogryph/75 Puk
75 Scorpion/75 Wamoura/75 Pixie/75 Peiste/64 Sabotender
51 Bird/41 Mandragora/40 Bee/37 Crawler/37 Bat
Items no one cares about: O
Missions no one cares about: O
Crafts no one cares about: O
75 Scorpion/75 Wamoura/75 Pixie/75 Peiste/64 Sabotender
51 Bird/41 Mandragora/40 Bee/37 Crawler/37 Bat
Items no one cares about: O
Missions no one cares about: O
Crafts no one cares about: O
Karlina wrote:
Nashred wrote:
There really is no reason to do coil. If they made the gear actually way better or made it better for longer more people would want to do coil. Takes around 6 months the the gear is outdated anyway by new tomes gear. so you spend 4, 5 6 months trying to get through coil to Maybe get a drop.
Maybe give everyone a choice of what they want instead of some random drop. Make it worth while and people will do it.
Right now it aint. and by the time you finish a section of coil new gears is out or a new section of coil.
Maybe give everyone a choice of what they want instead of some random drop. Make it worth while and people will do it.
Right now it aint. and by the time you finish a section of coil new gears is out or a new section of coil.
Isn't that the goal though? To have new content soon after people finish the current batch to keep people from getting bored? People already complain about how boring it is to do the same few dungeons over and over for 4 months. I don't know about you, but I get tired of doing the same three dungeons over and over really quickly. Just imagine if you had to run everything for a year+ instead.
Oh wait, I don't have to imagine that. I played FFXI...
What good is content only around 5 or 6 percent will ever do it? Looking at the statistics above.
You dont have to have every piece of gear drop from coil either.
I have said it before give coil a couple pieces that are best in slot.
Give crystal tower a couple of pieces of BIS.
Give people reasons to do multiple things.
The other thing about coil is it really wasn't fun beating your head against the wall over and over. It was hard to get a constant group together because rewards were not great when you could easily get good gear through tomes. .. Plus like Thaos said it is mainly scripted..
It like anything else the the reward has to meet the challenge.. Just like the punishment must meet the crime.
Sure some will do it just to do it or say they did it some just because it is more challenging.
honestly I didn't hate coil so much as I did trying to get others to do it. I do things for challenge but I hate walls that were put in just to stop people. That's why they lost so many really was turn 5.. Too many looked away and never looked back, same with the primals.
Another thing is over doing dodge affects and ballasting a fight out.
Its my opinion.
I agree I hate doing things over and over and over especially when I do something it is the same every time I do it and so heavily scripted.
I am on the edge of quitting this game. I dont hate the game I am just bored. I have played it through beta and have allot of time so it is hard to walk away. Tes and I have a house etc. I am feeling like I am doing same thing over and over. Its the grind in this game partly because it is new. To me the grind is worse in FFXIV than FFXI. because the the grind is always the same. In FFXI there was different kinds of grind.
We will probably buy the expansion because Tesee loves dragons, but if the expansion does not introduce some new battle we probably wont make it.
Edited, May 20th 2015 4:10pm by Nashred
Edited, May 20th 2015 4:12pm by Nashred
FFXI: Nashred
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FFXIV : Sir Nashred
server: Ultros
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FFXIV : Sir Nashred
server: Ultros
That vid and the Hitler vid... I'd love to see some kind of mashup.
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