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#27 Jan 19 2015 at 9:25 AM Rating: Decent
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Theonehio wrote:
Archmage Callinon wrote:
Remember also that the PS3 and PS4 clients have to be able to LOAD these zones with their limited memory.


Also take into consideration players VOTED for these kinds of maps. Heavensward wouldn't have "huge maps" if PS3/PS4 were any part of the equation. FFXI has some significantly larger (and more detailed in ways) maps and it's a PS2 game ported over numerous times. So unless yoshida is flatout lying to us about large maps in order to make flying maps "have a purpose"..memory isn't the issue here. Remember: Developers are also a limitation because they either or do not want something. Yoshida was even push offish about another SE dev DARING to suggest a different attribute system for XIV ARR and I promise you it has nothing to do with PS3/PS4 lol.


Here we go again....

FFXI has some significantly larger (and more detailed in ways) maps and it's a PS2 game ported over numerous times.

They're larger because it's copy-pasted assets to limit the load upon the PS2. They aren't "more detailed" in any extreme meaning of the word and to insinuate as such displays a distinct lack of vocabulary understanding on your part. Again, you make **** up through your nostalgia glasses.

La Theine was the same from start to finish -- green, barren, and hilly. Konschtat was the same from start to finish -- brown, barren, and hilly. Tahrongi was the same from start to finish -- brown, barren, and craggy.

Every single zone was given one color palette and it stayed the same throughout. There were no "detailed" deviations. In later expansions two zones shared the exact same look with different names beginning with ToAU.

The zones were also *barren* of life. Even WotG and ToAU, the more populated zones in terms of mob IDs, were still barren in terms of zone size to monster population ratio. Why? Because PS2 limitations; it physically couldn't handle any more mobs and still be able to load enough players at the time.

Yoshida was even push offish about another SE dev DARING to suggest a different attribute system for XIV ARR and I promise you it has nothing to do with PS3/PS4 lol.

Because he was suggesting a moronicly convoluted elemental system for Black Mage that made zero sense and displays a clear lack of understanding of why elemental weakness system flat out doesn't work in an MMO trinity system. In a single player game that revolved around a magic damage dealing hero? Fantastic idea. In an MMO? Poorly thought out.

Yet, in your ridiculous hatred of Yoshida, you also seemingly skipped over the fact that Matsuno suggested bosses akin to Yazmat in dungeon scenarios for events instead of FATEs in the future and Yoshida was extremely receptive of that. But, of course, that would force you to actually disengage your hate-***** for Yoshida.

Theonehio wrote:
Archmage Callinon wrote:
FFXI's zones only seemed huge because of the amount of time it took to travel across them.


They seemed large because they were large. It's like saying Texas only seems huge because you drove through it rather than flying over it - it doesn't change the fact it's **** large lol.

You also have to take into consideratiion FFXI had significantly more in the overworld (including dungeons) than XIV ARR does - Yoshida had his team designs the maps with "themes", which is why it feels cramped..they tried to shove anything into small "thematic" areas..but you also spend far less time in the overworld than 1.0 or XI for example.


You also have to take into consideratiion FFXI had significantly more in the overworld (including dungeons) than XIV ARR does

Except they don't and never have. Regardless of what your rose colored glasses want to believe FFXI zones were just zones with doodads sparsely populated and barely populated with monster life. There were no "dungeons" hidden throughout the world that weren't entire zones in and of themselves.

The amount of crap you make up to feed your self-delusion is unreal.
#28 Jan 19 2015 at 9:25 AM Rating: Good
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Well there's a problem with that.

Every MMO that's released now that tries to shake up the formula fails. Hard.

I can only conclude that the people playing MMOs don't want them to change. They've followed this formula for over 20 years stretching all the way back to when MMOs were called MUDs and they were text-based. I know. I was playing those. They followed the same formula except with even fewer mechanics.

I'll agree I'd like to see more randomness in encounters. More mechanics playing off each other. I have a feeling that's the sort of thing we'll see more of as the game grows and the dev team gets more comfortable doing what they're doing. Remember that this game has really only been around for a little over a year. They're still finding their feet. That all being said, dungeons are likely to always be trash -> boss for however many bosses they feel like putting in. There's actually a decent reason for that structure: people need a break after a boss fight, and trash packs give them that break.

Quote:
If you know exactly whats coming you can counter it 100% of the time.


I disagree with this notion. Just knowing what's going to happen isn't enough. You have to know how to deal with the mechanics as they come up and you have to do that while still doing your job properly, whether that's healing or running through your dps rotation or maintaining threat on the boss while keeping yourself from dying. Doing all that at the same time requires skill and practice. I'll point to WoW here. WoW has timer addons that show you, to the second, when the boss is going to do a particular thing. And even with this precise time information, even with all this warning, WoW's raid encounters are still quite difficult. Only a tiny percentage of players can do the highest content in that game. Knowing exactly what's going to happen when is only part of killing a boss.
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#29 Jan 19 2015 at 10:01 AM Rating: Good
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AlmightyApkallu wrote:
It's not just MMO's, our whole world has gotten that way. Everyone is in such a rush, not realizing that it's not always the destination, but the journey itself.

Everyone wants to rush through a zone, rush to level cap, rush through content. Then what? You're done, or you do it again. It's about what you do along the way and how you get there. People are obsessed with taking huge aircraft, the faster the better. 1 hour from New York to Los Angeles? WIN! Quickest route to your destination? WIN! As an avid motorcyclist I love taking the long way, the back roads and not at a fast pace but slowly, stopping along the way to take in the sights. A MMO is no different, yes it took time to get to places but who cares, it's all just virtual succession anyways. WHY do people need to HURRY UP and finish that quest so quick just to do another? A big part of the fun and the accomplishment was actually getting there.

I miss having to run around for a long time, sneak my way through some where like Uggelepih to finally get to a boss or complete an interesting quest or story. I did enjoy standing at the edge of Jeuno, chatting with people on my LS as I looked out across the sea thinking "what a huge world that awaits me." Even to this day, 11 years later I still discover places in FFXI I've never been before and it amazes me.

People always "think" they know what they want, then they get it and wonder what's missing when they had it all along.

Edited, Jan 18th 2015 11:18am by AlmightyApkallu


I agree... Especially with the first line.



Lonix wrote:
[quote=AlmightyApkallu]...

SE isn't scared at all to try anything new, look at the Gold Saucer and Choco racing.

.


Really this is something new? this has never been in a game before?
Actually I think it feels the opposite and it is not just SE.. Game companies are afraid to try new things. This is making the industry feel stagnate. There is little innovation in games and everyone is afraid to try something new. Games cost to much to make and game developers are afraid to take a risk.

SE to me is especially afraid.. They tried some thing new with 1.0 and fail bad.
Now they are trying to cater to WOW type of fans mostly.. They cant get out from under WOW or FFXI... They need to define themselves somehow and come out with their own content...

Edited, Jan 19th 2015 11:02am by Nashred
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#30 Jan 19 2015 at 10:08 AM Rating: Good
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Lonix wrote:
Whil were on this right now, like I said, gear sucks major donkey balls in this game. I can't believe people still defend our un-diverse gear choices. an Excalibur is just a really good iron dagger. you can make this comparison for every piece of gear in the game since every gear has the same stats on them. The gear hunt isn't fun because the gear isn't fun. No one likes this comparison, but a 0% haste ninja in FF11 is way less fun to play than a capped 25% haste ninja.


My recollection of FFXI (which I stopped playing right around when ToAU came out) was that for all of that diverse gear it still boiled down to "you must equip so-and-so or you're a gimp and we're kicking you from the party, have fun waiting hours for another invite". You were as pigeon-holed there as you are here. I'll take the current system.
#31 Jan 19 2015 at 10:20 AM Rating: Excellent
FFXI was also "trash -> boss." Let's not forget that.

Take {sea} farming. You kill trash mobs to farm for the drop to pop the boss. You pop the boss, kill it, and hope either for a gear drop, or a drop for the next level of boss. After a few hours (or days) of farming, you have the necessary boss pops to pop the mega boss.

Just because it was spread out over the course of many hours of farming instead of being compressed into 45-60 minutes doesn't make it any better. It just made it more tedious.

Dynamis was the same deal. 100+ trash mobs spaced out in clusters between mini bosses, with one final boss at the end. The only difference was that Dynamis was in existing zones, instead of a special dungeon zone. (Now I'd like to see that someday.)
#32 Jan 19 2015 at 10:34 AM Rating: Excellent
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Everything SE has ever tried 'new' players have critisized into the ground. Look at the XIII series, look at the reactions to XV. For the past fifteen years every time they try something new they've received critical backlash.

And now you're critiquing them for playing it safe?

I swear that people these days have no understanding of context when they make arguments or criticize choices made over long terms. Ok, so Golden Saucer is derivative off of their single player games, I'll grant that. But personal-sized airships? I don't remember single-rider airships. I also don't remember us playing Au Ras.

Explore-able airborne zone with emphasis on flying? Beyond scripted scenes where you jump from point A to point B, there's never been that in a FF game.

Safe bets are safe business. These people are playing risks with money you'll never see in your lifetime in a culture that loathes failure to the point where ritual suicide was an ancient traditional and accepted response for it. So keep that in the back of your head when you argue against them not taking any risks.

Yes, the world feels a lot more rushed than it did twelve years ago. Times change. Information comes to us at blinding speeds now that we can hold the equivalent of the devices we use to build computer desks around in the palm of our hands. It's made business, social life, a twenty four hour function handled at breakneck paces. That means in order to keep up while still being a major pastime, certain modern conveniences needs to be in place.

That means quest markers and guides, so you can get where you are going without spending an hour on wiki. That means telports dotted on the map so you're not wasting an hour in travel a day or more getting where you need to go. This means Raids and Dungeons are slimmed down to their core essences with an auto-party system so you're not spending six hours between looking for group and getting lost headed for your goal.

Are there still places to explore? Yes, go look for them. Or better yet, if you'd like to see nice and expansive views, pick up the sightseeing log quest in the Carline Canopy and try to fill it. That you will need to look up to complete it because those conditions for doing so are very, very specific.

Otherwise, this isn't the 90's anymore. Or even the 2000's. The '10s are half done. If you want to lose yourself in idle content with no time pressure, go play Skyrim or Inquisition. Or wait, and give this game another five years to catch up to a portion of the history that FFXI had under it's belt. ARR hasn't even gotten an expansion yet, and we've got more content than Zilart had.

I'm scratching that itch to be abrasive, I know but damned if some of the blindly ungrateful comments made here haven't made that itch unbearable. This title could have not existed, faded away as a closed chapter of a game released unfinished and criticized into the ground. Instead it's thriving in ways FFXI never could, with a system that appeals to many players who were put off by FFXI to begin with, as well as some fans who were just ready to move on from the aged game.

Now if you'll excuse me, I've got a rather hard goal to try to meet inside four hours.
#33 Jan 19 2015 at 10:59 AM Rating: Good
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Montsegurnephcreep wrote:
So what IS Final Fantasy exactly?
01 - A name written on a cover.
02 - See 1.
03 - No, seriously, that was it.
04 - Why would you think there was more?
05 - There is no fifth star.
06 - Weird Al was on Galavant last night. Completely underutilized.
07 - There can't be a seventh reason if there hasn't been a reason since two.
08 -
    Rum Cake Recipe 
Ingredients 
      ---Cake--- 
    1 cup chopped, toasted pecans or walnuts 
    1 18-1/2 ounce yellow cake mix 
    1 3.4 ounce package (4-serving size) instant  
      vanilla pudding mix 
    4 eggs 
    1/2 cup cold milk* 
    1/2 cup vegetable oil 
    1/2 cup Bacardi dark rum 
     
      ---Glaze--- 
    1/2 cup butter 
    1/4 cup water 
    1 cup sugar 
    1/2 cup Bacardi dark rum 
 
    Prep Time: 25 minutes 
    Cook Time: 60 minutes 
 
    Total Time: 85 minutes 
    Yield: 12 to 16 servings 
 
      ---Preparation--- 
Cake: Preheat oven to 325 degrees F. Grease and flour 12-cup  
Bundt pan . Sprinkle nuts on bottom of pan. Combine all cake  
ingredients. Beat for 2 minutes on high with electric mixer.  
Pour into prepared pan. Bake for 1 hour. Cool in pan. Invert  
on serving plate. Prick top with fork. Drizzle glaze over top  
of Bacardi Rum Cake . Use brush or spoon to put extra  
dripping back on cake. 
 
Glaze: Melt butter in saucepan. Stir in water and sugar. Boil 
05 minutes, stirring constantly. Remove from heat and stir in  
rum. Note: The rum will cause steam. Be careful not to burn  
yourself.

09 - Opening this spoiler has unleash a curse on your soul. If you do not repost it in thirteen other places, your hair will fall and and begin to grow denser in your nose.
10 - Cycle back to 01. I used a simple forum trick to change all the joke spoilers to real reasons. Just close them and open again. Thanks for sticking with it.
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#34 Jan 19 2015 at 11:04 AM Rating: Good
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lolgaxe wrote:
Montsegurnephcreep wrote:
So what IS Final Fantasy exactly?
01 - A name written on a cover.
02 - See 1.
03 - No, seriously, that was it.
04 - Why would you think there was more?
05 - There is no fifth star.
06 - Weird Al was on Galavant last night. Completely underutilized.
07 - There can't be a seventh reason if there hasn't been a reason since two.
08 -
    Rum Cake Recipe 
Ingredients 
      ---Cake--- 
    1 cup chopped, toasted pecans or walnuts 
    1 18-1/2 ounce yellow cake mix 
    1 3.4 ounce package (4-serving size) instant  
      vanilla pudding mix 
    4 eggs 
    1/2 cup cold milk* 
    1/2 cup vegetable oil 
    1/2 cup Bacardi dark rum 
     
      ---Glaze--- 
    1/2 cup butter 
    1/4 cup water 
    1 cup sugar 
    1/2 cup Bacardi dark rum 
 
    Prep Time: 25 minutes 
    Cook Time: 60 minutes 
 
    Total Time: 85 minutes 
    Yield: 12 to 16 servings 
 
      ---Preparation--- 
Cake: Preheat oven to 325 degrees F. Grease and flour 12-cup  
Bundt pan . Sprinkle nuts on bottom of pan. Combine all cake  
ingredients. Beat for 2 minutes on high with electric mixer.  
Pour into prepared pan. Bake for 1 hour. Cool in pan. Invert  
on serving plate. Prick top with fork. Drizzle glaze over top  
of Bacardi Rum Cake . Use brush or spoon to put extra  
dripping back on cake. 
 
Glaze: Melt butter in saucepan. Stir in water and sugar. Boil 
05 minutes, stirring constantly. Remove from heat and stir in  
rum. Note: The rum will cause steam. Be careful not to burn  
yourself.

09 - Opening this spoiler has unleash a curse on your soul. If you do not repost it in thirteen other places, your hair will fall and and begin to grow denser in your nose.
10 - Cycle back to 01. I used a simple forum trick to change all the joke spoilers to real reasons. Just close them and open again. Thanks for sticking with it.

You forgot the most important one!
RDM Melee!
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#35 Jan 19 2015 at 11:57 AM Rating: Excellent
Oh my god the Sightseeing Log.... the most difficult and time consuming content ever put in this game.

They had to put the weather linkshell people in XIV just for the Sightseeing Log. That's how bad it was. Smiley: lol
#36 Jan 19 2015 at 12:29 PM Rating: Decent
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It does not matter what a company, individual or group does there will be people to support it. When people find something that they believe in, even if there is better they fear change, they do not want their values questioned, they don't want what they believe in to go away.

In the days of the HNM's and Kings on FFXI people would defend them left, right, up and down. If you said anything about the spawn times, or complained about farming Omega for 6 months just to get ninja lotted on that Homam piece then you were just a whiner, a complainer, some one who needed to "find a better group" or "learn to play." I'll admit, as it stands Square Enix does have a lot of people who enjoy playing FFXIV, so why change it? Why would they listen to a few people even if they were right, when so many others are happily paying their subscription fees? I think the players they cater too right now are the kind that will most likely lose interest within a few years. To have that Everquest/FFXI type of following you have to have the mechanics and fundamentals at the very base of your game finely tuned. FFXI is 11 years old and there is still a diehard core of people keeping it alive and relatively well. I personally don't see FFXIV in the same spot in 11 years, I imagine it will have a predecessor. Again, like most things in society now days, it's about instant gratification and the acceptance that it too will soon come to pass and be replaced by something else. From cell phones, to cars, to MMO's that's just the way of society now and I find it kind of sad. Everything is about "New and cutting edge" never with much thought to longevity.

To answer some one's question, what could Square Enix do or rather, what should they have done to make FFXIV much better?

First of all, the whole mount system is incredibly stupid. The mounts don't even move around realistically, they move around like a squirrel on crack, their limbs flail about wildly as they inconsistently zoom from pixel to pixel. Riding around on Unicorns, Behemoths, Ahriman, Courels and big Lizards just feels like ultra-induced fanservice with no consideration to the "realistic" feel FFXI and more interesting MMO's had. What's wrong with just having Chocobos? Maybe having different colors and saddles for them? Why does your Chocobo need a big piece of armor that makes it look like some strangely deformed horse-bird-abomination? It feels as if they took cursive and turned it into comic sans.

Secondly, no, believe it or not you don't need to teleport everywhere instantly. If it takes more than 5 minutes to get to something you want to do, I don't think it's a bad thing. I actually enjoyed the "dungeon crawls" and sneaking through pass-worded doors in areas to finally get to a boss. It gave it a feeling as if it truly was a boss, off hidden some where that took effort to get to. Again I'll reiterate that getting there, even though people often complained about it was half the fun and gave it more depth and again, immersion.

The "Overworld" as people call it needs to be much more diverse and bigger in FFXIV. It feels like the "Overworld" is just a lobby for people to stand around in before teleporting to the next dungeon boss battle. Like a virtual coffee shop where you stand around, chat, bunny hop and show off the overly-gaudy armor you have as you strike a pose and do your blatantly ripped off WoW dance. And why does there need to 50 monsters within 10 feet of you? It's the same feeling as when you go fishing in a pre-stocked pond in the real world. It's all right there for you, no effort required. I liked how in FFXI there were "camps" where many monsters would be, but there were not a ton of monsters, everywhere in every direction feeling like some kind of petting zoo. It was nice to feel like you were running through a "world" and a monster world suddenly appear in the distance. Again, gave to the feeling of immersion. People call it "wasted space," I think these are the same people that feel urban developments and a new tanger outlets should be built in a nature preserve or out in the wilderness some where. People who get bored going out into nature and just want to stay glued to their smart phone. It's not wasted space, it's part of what makes the world you're in more diverse and expansive. I do believe the zones, maps and areas were not only much bigger in FFXI but from the get-go there were much more of them. What could Square Enix do?

Add more zones on FFXIV that have more in mind than just "CAMP, MONSTER, DUNGEON ENTRANCE." Zones that were picturesque, allowed for some actual exploration, allowed you to feel a bit isolated. That's part of adventuring by the way, feeling isolated at times like you're not within 100 feet of something or some one, but out there, in the wild. Again, it adds to the immersion. I also don't like how so many zones in FFXIV are so far from feeling at all realistic. Even in fantasy it's fun to be in a area you can kind of relate to, not ALL of FFXIV is this way mind you, for example when you go to Costa Del Sol and force yourself not to look at the enormous shining crystal-cluster-#%^& in the distance you feel like you could really be in the Caribbean. It's a way of making people feel like they can in a way relate to a fantasy realm without it being an exact copy. I begin to worry that one day there will only be ultra-realistic cop/war-fiction set in exact real world settings and super high fantasy that disregards any sort of physics or logic, no middle grounds that feel familiar but take you some where new and otherworldly.

I also can't stand how every single direction you turn you can't look 10 feet without seeing some "remnants of the calamity" or "ancient ruins" or "mysterious crystal structure." In FFXI and many other MMO's it was the world you were in and you would "happen upon" these ancient ruins, and mysterious structures, not see them protruding from the toilet in the drowning wench. I imagine going to bed in the Inn you probably see some piece of a dragon, crystal or Garleen technology on your pillow beside you. Seriously, Eorzea, clean the place up a little bit?

In these "slightly" more realistic areas that give a bit more room for exploration, give fisherman, botanists and miners some areas with THEM in mind, it feels like the current producer was forced to leave these classes in the game and could care less about them. How about showing them a bit of love? Giving some areas that are fun to use those classes in, maybe some quests and stories specific to those classes? More streams, lakes, rivers and ponds to go fishing in.

And the armor. I liked how in FFXI the armor always fit proportionately to the person wearing it. Again, it looked a bit believable and realistic in a way while still being something not found in our world. Think of how the relic armor fit in FFXI, or the Artifact Armor, think about all the sets along the way that fit true to form. In FFXIV it feels like all the armor is a giant tent, almost like a mechanical suit your character is wearing. Enormous, flashy, glowing, sparkling, it feels like they hired Lisa Frank to do all the armor design. Don't worry though, if you want your character to look aesthetically pleasing you can always make that big gaudy coat into a tiny little bikini.... So how about some more "form fitting armor"?

Finally, the music is absolutely awful. Why the &^#@ would you get rid of music written by Nobuo Uematsu? The guy is a legend and the music in 1.0 was one of the few things in the game that was truly amazing.

Oh and P.S? Coerthas was absolutely stunningly beautiful and the mystical castle in the middle of it made it feel so amazingly wondrous and mysterious. It shouldn't have changed.

I guess these few tweaks would certainly make me much happier, but again, why make me or many others happy? Who cares if it's right or wrong? Who cares if it's horribly wrong? If there are a bunch of people willing to pay Square Enix money for it, at the end of the day those executives can still drive home in their Bentley, those designers can still make their six figure salaries and the stock prices on Square Enix can stay consistent. So why change it?
#37 Jan 19 2015 at 12:51 PM Rating: Excellent
We're getting the rest of Coerthas back with the expansion. Also getting Ishgard, which we never had in 1.0, so there's something.

I actually don't mind the music of 2.0. Souken is not Nobue Uematsu, but he's good in his own way, and getting better with each new piece released. They've slowly been re-adding in the music from 1.0 in various places (I think it's "Beneath Bloody Banners" that narrates a few of the dungeons, and it does this really nifty thing where it switches from chip-tune to orchestrated seamlessly as you start fights.)

Some of the new music from the primal fights and from later battles is amazing. Garuda's fight I think is still the best of the whole bunch from the primals. The zone music seems to be where it's lacking in personality the most. No one will be unhappy if they give us Twilight over Thanalan back.
#38 Jan 19 2015 at 1:30 PM Rating: Good
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AlmightyApkallu wrote:
It does not matter what a company, individual or group does there will be people to support it. When people find something that they believe in, even if there is better they fear change, they do not want their values questioned, they don't want what they believe in to go away.

In the days of the HNM's and Kings on FFXI people would defend them left, right, up and down. If you said anything about the spawn times, or complained about farming Omega for 6 months just to get ninja lotted on that Homam piece then you were just a whiner, a complainer, some one who needed to "find a better group" or "learn to play." I'll admit, as it stands Square Enix does have a lot of people who enjoy playing FFXIV, so why change it? Why would they listen to a few people even if they were right, when so many others are happily paying their subscription fees? I think the players they cater too right now are the kind that will most likely lose interest within a few years. To have that Everquest/FFXI type of following you have to have the mechanics and fundamentals at the very base of your game finely tuned. FFXI is 11 years old and there is still a diehard core of people keeping it alive and relatively well. I personally don't see FFXIV in the same spot in 11 years, I imagine it will have a predecessor. Again, like most things in society now days, it's about instant gratification and the acceptance that it too will soon come to pass and be replaced by something else. From cell phones, to cars, to MMO's that's just the way of society now and I find it kind of sad. Everything is about "New and cutting edge" never with much thought to longevity.



Exactly.. It remains to be seen how successful this game is yet. The game is very popular now and has more players than FFXI did at any single point but who knows if it will be like in 5 years from now or if it is still around. In many ways FFXIV is already successful though..

Fact in order to survive you have to listen to your customers and be grateful for them.. Listening to fans does little good really. Fans will always play just like in FFXIV 1.0 but you cant survive on fans alone and 1.0 proved that.. If companies just listed to just fanboys whether it was Sony Playstaion or Microsoft Xbox or Square Enix these companies would probably think they created heaven or the perfect product.

I think This game is new and has lots of opportunity to be better than FFXI and allot of other MMO's but they need something new to continue on this track and I hope it is still coming. But I am not going to accept any content as good content just be cause SE made it. I will accept it as good content if it is good content.

Its people that can see the bad and good that end up making games spectacular.. By listening to those people Developers can figure out what too keep that's good, throw out whats bad and turn some ideas into something spectacular. I hope this is the road FFXIV is on because if not I will play something else, Its that simple. I prefer to be playing this game in 5 years because I have so much time invested.




Edited, Jan 19th 2015 2:33pm by Nashred
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#39 Jan 19 2015 at 1:45 PM Rating: Default
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Nice to hear we get old-Coerthas back, one small step in the right direction. I've not done any boss battles, so I'm not sure how that music is, but even if it's amazing and even if they didn't use him to create anymore music, the music Uematsu did do should have stayed, no question. Twilight over Thanalan, Unspoken (the original Coerthas theme), and why in the world would you delete a song like Navigator's glory? (The original theme to Limsa Lominsa)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pE19Mz4Wu2w

I think another big problem is that everything is just, flailed out there at us. It feels like there is no mysteries to discover, nothing left unsaid, it's all right there, everyone knows. I think of hearing Unspoken and traveling through the original Coerthas, thinking "What mysteries await? What long lost tales does this land hold? What story is behind that mysterious castle far off in the distance surrounded by mountains?" Now it's just "Oh look, another unicorn prancing to do another dungeon raid, lots of snow tundra super calamity mega dragon." It feels like I they traded Lord of the Rings for Magic the Gathering.

Perhaps they can gather some of that "mystique" back in coming times, but they have to realize that just because they deleted everything from 1.0 and are giving everyone every single thing taken from large MMO's with big player bases does not mean it is correct or right. McDonalds sells more hamburgers than just about anyone else in the world, but ask just about anyone if it's the best hamburger they've had. Popular does not = Best. Final Fantasy has always been a work of art in my opinion, now they've turned it into a coloring book.
#40 Jan 19 2015 at 2:40 PM Rating: Default
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Archmage Callinon wrote:
Well there's a problem with that.

Every MMO that's released now that tries to shake up the formula fails. Hard.

I can only conclude that the people playing MMOs don't want them to change. They've followed this formula for over 20 years stretching all the way back to when MMOs were called MUDs and they were text-based. I know. I was playing those. They followed the same formula except with even fewer mechanics.

I'll agree I'd like to see more randomness in encounters. More mechanics playing off each other. I have a feeling that's the sort of thing we'll see more of as the game grows and the dev team gets more comfortable doing what they're doing. Remember that this game has really only been around for a little over a year. They're still finding their feet. That all being said, dungeons are likely to always be trash -> boss for however many bosses they feel like putting in. There's actually a decent reason for that structure: people need a break after a boss fight, and trash packs give them that break.

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If you know exactly whats coming you can counter it 100% of the time.


I disagree with this notion. Just knowing what's going to happen isn't enough. You have to know how to deal with the mechanics as they come up and you have to do that while still doing your job properly, whether that's healing or running through your dps rotation or maintaining threat on the boss while keeping yourself from dying. Doing all that at the same time requires skill and practice. I'll point to WoW here. WoW has timer addons that show you, to the second, when the boss is going to do a particular thing. And even with this precise time information, even with all this warning, WoW's raid encounters are still quite difficult. Only a tiny percentage of players can do the highest content in that game. Knowing exactly what's going to happen when is only part of killing a boss.


They fail hard because those games were never good. Shaking things up is fine if the gaMe is good, but shaking it up when it already sucks isnt going to magically make it good.
#41 Jan 19 2015 at 2:49 PM Rating: Good
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Apkallu, I'm sorry but I don't' agree with some of your criticism, in fact, I don’t agree with any of them. I’ll note take the tone of the post with a grain of a salt, I just got pulled away from the game to go into work early sort of my intended goal, right as I was picking up momentum.

Picture my perspective for a moment. You just returned to the game, I haven't heard you mention anything about having a level 50 anything, or have completed the main storyline for you to have explored Eorzea, yet here you are critiquing the game's lack of area diversity and scope.

Case in point: Have you found all twelve(read, thirteen) godstones yet? I'm willing to be you haven't looked. If so, I don’t think your commentary wouldn't be the same.

No two points in from 1.xx's old pilgrimage looks the same, not even Nald and Thal have the same feel and they're in the same city. They're put in points of the map that you have to explore to find.

In fact, ARR throws so many picturesque scenes at you that, due to the game's pacing, you're going to ignore the majority of them. Walk outside the Drowning Wench and face the Lightouse at night. Look up the sky on a clear night from Costa de Sol. Step behind the chocobo Stables in Camp Drybranch and look down. Head just east of Steel Vigil in Coerthas and turn around and look downhill. Walk through the archway and take a look beyond the zoneline.

These are just some off the top of my head. Easy ones. Different scenes of all kinds, and you're passing them by and telling me ARR isn't scenic enough for you.

Stop playing ‘the game’. Go wander around in the game for a while. No going from point to point looking at whatever's most flashy on the map. Just go looking.

Whats the most interesting point to you in Central Shroud? Northern? Eastern? Ask that question to players you’re going to get different answers for each area.

As a player “What’s the most interesting place for you in Sarutabaruta?” Your answers are far fewer in scope, even if you included the entirety of Sarutabaruta.


You contradict yourself continually in your post. Want more scenes, but don’t want more stuff IN the scenes. You criticize the game’s overworld for being some sort of coffee shop hub, but turn around and gripe that quest points that are identified with physical locations and objects instead of a bland green ??? point in the game are actually littered throughout each zone.

Btw: FATEs, Quests, Leves (That’s Guild and Grand Company Leves which act differently also levels specifically designed for Disciples of Land and Hand), Treasure Hunts/Alexandrite maps, Beastman Dailies, (For five different beastmen tribes.) Hunt and Elite Marks and Seasonal events. But the open world is a glorified coffee shop to wait for instances in. Are you reading over what you are saying before you post it? Or have you not done any research into the world you’re criticizing?

There are a lot of instances for content, yes absolutely. But there is a lot of content out in this open world, far more than FFXI’s early days. Heck, it’s debatable that Chains of Promithia had this much open world content.

A tiered NM system is really the only thing FFXI overworld had going for it for a majority of its formative years, and that was post expansion, and riddled with its own problems and criticisms.

And on that point ,you cite how people defended Ground Kings, and other sort of negative tropes in FFXI. But FFXI did successfully, why? Because it knew its audience and appealed to its base.

Being outside that base and asking for drastic changes doesn't work. I tried that for years, it’s futile, save yourself the aggravation. That said, if you take the time to refine your requests to something that’s reasonable within the context of the game, you’re likely going to get results.

Hunt Marks and Elite marks came from Customer requests, and they’re slated to be expanded upon with the Expansion (though, I’m doubting on expansion day, I’m expecting in patches after the expansion is out.) so feedback does get to them.

So, let’s pick an example: You said something on the effect of having Zones with Disciples of Land in mind. Honestly I think that more intelligent placement of nodes and Leves would serve better as there is a diverse landscape in pretty much all the zones that we have. Having mining nodes on the surface of Coerthas doesn't make as much sense of me as down in Witchdrop or in Ogre's belly. What they did was put nodes close to common Leve mark points for Leves.

I don’t mind criticism of the game but I hate how poorly thought out a lot of it ends up being or how uninformed it is of the situation around it. There’s a difference between having a valid criticism of the game and just complaining at every little thing that isn’t perfect.

TLDR: The game is never going to be perfect. There’s always going to be little annoyances. But there is a big difference between someone who wants to share criticism and discuss them to develop and refine feedback, and those who fall into the rut of being habitual complainer. Don’t fall into that rut, Apkallu. If you’re having concerns, a lot of us have examples of where you might glean more enjoyment of the game or where you may not be looking.

Spend less time arguing your point and more time attempting to enjoy the game, and you may enjoy it more.

I can share examples of some of the things I do, or I’ve found relative to your interests, if you like.

Edited, Jan 19th 2015 6:30pm by Hyrist
#42 Jan 19 2015 at 2:53 PM Rating: Good
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Are we talking mystery, like, ebon panel tier or more like, here's a zone... you'll learn about it as you quest through it?

Because barring cryptic brain teasers, I'd argue maintaining any level of mystery in an MMO is difficult due to the ability for players to rapidly communicate and share information. Bosses get "figured out" in this manner, be it by realizing a rotation, how their moves work, counters to specific actions, environmental ties, things unlocked at certain HP levels, and so on. This process of experimentation and observation extends easily enough to general geographic locales. Why did that dragon swoop over the lake near Tavnazia? What is it? That's a question we never got answered, really. I'm not exactly keen on throwing in red herrings just because, though. If the argument is then that the world feels more alive with such things, I'd say XIV has that in its own ways.

If you want to know there are ruins, crystals, and whatever, then it's possible some of that got lost in the transition from 1.0 to 2.0. Eorzea, however, has long been considered "special" among continents around its given game world. The Allag, Scions, Ascians, the Empire, and the city states all have or had their motives and purposes for being here. We don't have the full story yet, though, which I guess is ironic since it is a mystery in its own right. Something you certainly won't experience if you're only taking a combat class to 15 and getting crafters to 50 first. So, in a way, it's like ******** about a movie you've never even seen, only possibly heard biased opinions about.
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#43 Jan 19 2015 at 3:49 PM Rating: Excellent
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There's lore for a good bit of the locales in FFXIV, in fact I'd say moreso than the ones given for FFXI for the timeline we're talking about.

IMO, CoP Was the most beautiful, ToAU had great lore development, WoTG had good cutscenes and expanded on the lore of the Vanilla areas.

But right now I can do quests around Tranquil and start to get tastes of what Amnapoor was like. Going into the two (Soon to be three) Dungeons relating to the subject gives you more lore, and the White Mage quests give you even more.

Like FFXI, there's a whole ton of lore on stuff when you fish around for it.
#44 Jan 19 2015 at 5:33 PM Rating: Decent
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on the topic of zones, they definitely have the capability to make gigantic zones if they want to. 1.0 had HUGE zones. But that was also part of the problem because to fill in those zones they had to copy paste like 75% of the zone. If I'm not mistaken they intentionally went for smaller zones so they could add in more detail and life to an area. 1.0 zones were pretty empty and bland. There's way more life to them now. My only gripe would have to be the lack of danger in the world. nowhere is too dangerous to go at 50, which brings down some of the awesomeness of the zones. There isn't really any memorable zones, at least for me in 14. Theres cool stuff splattered all over the place to see, but nothing really stands out. Mor dhona's continuous evolution is the only really cool thing I can think of zone wise that made me go "wow this is awesome". I miss some of the gimmicks some of the ff11 zones had. climbing that mountain in attowha chasm might give some people nightmares, but I thought that was pretty cool. or the weight plates in altepa dessert. did that suck? sure it did. but you and a friend were going on an adventure. unless you were a galka...then you could do it alone. I guess what I'm trying to say here is there is a lack of map interaction in 14. lots of pretty things to see, but that's about it.
#45 Jan 19 2015 at 5:42 PM Rating: Excellent
Actually, having to tool around the dragon bones above Poor Maid's Mill felt EXACTLY like climbing the mountain in Attowa. One false move, and down you go. Smiley: grin

I think the coolest and most confusing place is Burning Wall, which has layers and layers of level 45-49 mobs and just looks freaking gorgeous any time of day. If you stand in just the right spot overlooking the waterfall, you can see a bit of Allegan tech and the remains of Dalamud still visible.
#46 Jan 19 2015 at 5:52 PM Rating: Excellent
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I think this video is on topic.

A bit of a look from a different perspective of the scope of Eorzea pre-expansion.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RadO-Lr9_q4
#47 Jan 20 2015 at 3:06 AM Rating: Decent
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You don't have to come up with something completely new to make game play refreshing. I know that many people here don't care for WoW and to be honest, I didn't really expect anything from Warlords of Draenor other than a few months of raid content to keep me occupied. I gotta say though, the garrison system in that game is ******* amazing.

I don't have a single room in a house that occupies a plot with other player's housing, I have my own zone. I gathered the materials and set my followers to work to raise the buildings I wanted to support my crafting, questing, raiding and even my leisure time. I recruited NPCs along the way to aid in my cause and I can send them off on missions(think retainers) or even take them out into the field with me(think FFXI trust system).

They didn't do anything revolutionary because they're using systems we've already seen in other games, XI and XIV included. A lot of what they got right were the seemingly insignificant details. You can see your followers walking through the gate as they return from a mission. Your followers pets run around the streets. If you walk up to a soldier in your garrison they will stop and turn to salute you. Followers stop to make small talk or say things about recent invasions or missions you've sent them on.

None of this on it's own is amazing, but the way it was all brought together makes it stand out. This was what I wanted from FFXIV. I don't care if you have to borrow systems from other games, but do something to it to give it the FF feel. Sad to say, but I get more immersion walking from my town hall to the front gate of my garrison in WoW than I ever sensed in months of playing XIV. I feel like I should be mad at SE for forcing me to go back to WoW, but I can't decide who to be mad at for actually enjoying it Smiley: lol
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#48 Jan 20 2015 at 5:08 AM Rating: Default
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The sad thing is, you're right about mostly everything. It's true.

But let's not over romanticize 1.0, recently got a chance to get back on it through the 7th umbral project, and while there's nothing that beats the world itself and having open world dungeons, gameplay wise (as sad as i am to admit it) 2.0 blows it out of the water. Sure, we might lose the feeling of "weight", but we got back a huge amount of actual movement. Does it feel realistic? nope. Does it play better this way? hell yes.

I totally miss the world from 1.0 too. But game wise? I know i quit around the time they stopped with the appologizing, started asking money for it after they ruined it one "update" at a time. And the worst thing is i never felt bad about quitting back then. Base 1.0, great game. 1.23? Go die in a fire. We lost all immersion by that time already with changes we couldnt even make optional in the settings.

2.0 just works as a game. Even if we had to sacrifice most of the game world, abilities, proper crafting (1.0 not 1.23), actual properly working leves and a great story for it.
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#49 Jan 20 2015 at 8:31 AM Rating: Good
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Catwho wrote:
Actually, having to tool around the dragon bones above Poor Maid's Mill felt EXACTLY like climbing the mountain in Attowa. One false move, and down you go. Smiley: grin

I think the coolest and most confusing place is Burning Wall, which has layers and layers of level 45-49 mobs and just looks freaking gorgeous any time of day. If you stand in just the right spot overlooking the waterfall, you can see a bit of Allegan tech and the remains of Dalamud still visible.


No doubt FFXIV is gorgeous game with gorgeous zones.
FFXI zones were blah to me and allot looked the same.

But FFXI still added that sense of adventure and was scary. I remember leveling and being able to get to that next higher zone and having to be so careful.. It was scary and you had to watch for what was around the corner. Even at level cap some zones were scary...Yea sometimes it was a pain when you needed to get somewhere fast but it is reality and is more real..

FFXIV it feels like all mobs are huddled together in groups and tied with a rubber band which is not real and doesn't feel real.

Sometimes what I feel is disappearing out of mmorpg's is the rpg part of it. That is what I like.. Its more about instances and gear. It dont feel like leveling or creating a character anymore. Is not about adventure, it about lets see how fast we can slaughter stuff. I like to feel like I am part of the world and not just going through the motions.

I want story and well thought out missions. Not just go bring be back 3 pieces of eft meat.

It feels like people are loosing their imaginations.


Edited, Jan 20th 2015 9:51am by Nashred

Edited, Jan 20th 2015 9:53am by Nashred
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#50 Jan 20 2015 at 8:49 AM Rating: Excellent
If it makes you guys feel better, the word from the EU folks is that the World of Darkness is hard, hard, hard and makes the first two CTs feel like the jokes they are.

Heard one comparison that ST and WoD are like T1 and T5 coils in terms of difficulties.
#51 Jan 20 2015 at 8:55 AM Rating: Good
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Catwho wrote:
If it makes you guys feel better, the word from the EU folks is that the World of Darkness is hard, hard, hard and makes the first two CTs feel like the jokes they are.

Heard one comparison that ST and WoD are like T1 and T5 coils in terms of difficulties.



Wow, I always thought the others were a little easy. Lets hope they didn't go to far the other way.. I preferred the first on over the second so far.

By the way that last post was not directed at you only the first line on how gorgeous the zones in FFXIV are the rest was just a general statement. I was agreeing with you..



Edited, Jan 20th 2015 9:57am by Nashred
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