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Endgame Post from a JP PlayerFollow

#27 Jun 04 2014 at 3:35 PM Rating: Excellent
Quote:
You're saying you'd prefer an enrage mechanic to one-shot mechanics?


No, I'm not talking about enrage mechanics. I think enrage mechanics are better for fights with longer time limits (or no time limits).

I'm talking about fights that contain more of a variety of mechanics but on a shorter clock. In other words, make the fight more forgiving, while still requiring that players know what they're doing and how to adapt in order to win... and you cut down on the time limit to provide punishment for failure.

I hate pointing back to FFXI as a model for things (because it's not a model for many things), but that game produced some very difficult (and very fun) boss battles, especially along the CoP path. The longest time limit I can recall for these fights was 45 minutes on One to Be Feared (I could be wrong, that's just going from memory). The fight had three or four stages, and parties could afford to wipe once and still recover and win. Wipe twice, and you could still win, but it would be really, really close... wipe three times, and you might as well just start over again.

It's not an enrage mechanic at all... it's simply making fights that are difficult in more ways than one. Those CoP battles took lots of teamwork, and different stages of the battle could be handled slightly differently depending on your party setup. Even the infamous snoll tzar fight (basically known as a big DPS check) allowed room for strategy for parties that didn't have the up-front DPS to easily clear the time limit (chainspell/sleep/convert FTW).
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#28 Jun 04 2014 at 3:40 PM Rating: Excellent
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Thayos wrote:
Back in XI, some of my most memorable battles were with groups that had to overcome mistakes in order to eek out a win by the time the clock expired.


There was a level 30 capped encounter with 3 lizards that you would run for the bounding boots (I think) that I used to run with Infamous and PirotPete back in 2006 on XI. I kited two lizards as red mage while the dragoon tanked / dps one at a time and the whm healed. It was very mechanics driven and every single boss in XIV reminds me of that encounter.

I wouldn't mind a battle where all the black mages could just line up on the back row and nuke a boss with a bazillion health, sort of like behemoth and odin. We need more battles like behemoth and odin, but instanced. Maybe 24 people. CT is getting there, but still too mechanics driven. Behemoth and odin are like 10% mechanics, and are simply defeated if you have the numbers. The peisteskin treasure maps are similar.
#29 Jun 04 2014 at 3:49 PM Rating: Excellent
Yeah, there is very little crowd control going on in XIV. I'd love to see more battles that required actual crowd control, perhaps even incorporating unusual battlefields where the use of terrain can be part of the strategy.
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#30 Jun 04 2014 at 3:55 PM Rating: Good
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I feel like bosses could feel a bit more "challenging" if we veered away from scripting and instead put their move sets on some conditional RNG. This way, I feel like you could steer a bit away from the 1HKOs while still demanding a high level of awareness if a mob decides to use a particularly punishing move 2-3 times in a row. Of course, when I use the word conditional, this includes moves unlocking under certain HP percentages, preventing nothing but spamming Hurricane Wing (as an XI-based example), and then some occasional encounter-specific quirks to help spice things up a bit more like attacking the bologna dragon from behind in AK triggering the tail swipe.

And, well, I dislike tight encounter timers and/or rage mechanics. They basically say, "Sorry guys, gotta build your party X way or you're gonna fail. Enjoy!"
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#31 Jun 04 2014 at 3:58 PM Rating: Good
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I agree with quite a bit of what the JP author is saying. For one thing, the scripted fights that require a very rigid, structured strategy in order to complete encounters. The majority of fights are heavily based on memorization, knowing what to do and when. "Make sure we do enough damage in this phase or the group wipes," "make sure we don't do too much damage in that phase or the timers on the transition will be off and the group wipes," "he's going to use a big attack on the tank at this exact time, pop cooldowns/top off tanks," "make sure the adds are killed in the right spot and in the right order," etc. They're fights that would be nearly impossible to complete without either trial and error or having someone show you previously what to do. On the other hand, once you've already learned the fight, it can become almost trivial since you know it will do the exact same thing every single time. The most difficult part for an individual who knows the mechanics like the back of his hand is often not the actual fight itself, but finding 7 others who do as well. There is very little variance to the majority of fights, so once you have memorized the fight and have 7 others who have also memorized the fight, at that point all you need to do is show up. It's not exactly the most exciting experience.

On the other hand, you have players who don't play very often and may not have had as much practice doing the fights, and you also have players who may simply be less skilled and have below average reaction time. Both of these groups seem to have players who feel excluded from end game as the party finder is generally filled with comments like "3 strikes and you're out," "KNOW THE FIGHT!" "no derps pls" and the like. Which I guess we can come to expect when there's content that requires a very strict set of conditions with a strict limit on the amount of players who can join. I don't really have much of an issue with content like this existing, but it'd be nice to see some real, thoughtful end game level content that friends could just go and have some fun doing without any pressure. It doesn't have to be a copy of sky, sea, dynamis, limbus, abyssea, ZNM, or anything else from FFXI, but it would be nice to see at least some real end game stuff that retained a trait that all of those events had. That being, that new friends who had never even got their feet wet in end game before would be welcome in your group, and they'd actually be a help rather than a burden. As they did the event more, they'd improve, and be more of a help than before, but the initial jump into end game wouldn't be a stressful and painful one.
#32 Jun 04 2014 at 4:14 PM Rating: Excellent
Something else I'd do (if I were in charge) is raise the minimum item level for all endgame battlefields (not leveling/gearing dungeons), and then I'd tune the fights to be optimal with a higher item level.

With fewer insta-kill mechanics, you'd want to shift greater importance toward being properly geared and prepared. This would also give more value to food and potions, as stats would have more meaning than memorization/dodging.

Also, upping item levels and putting more emphasis on stats would bring back some meaning for people who are bored with grinding tomes/earlier coil/etc. for gear. In addition, accomplished players who play through the content and amass high-level gear would be rewarded with more clear advantages on the battlefield.



Edited, Jun 4th 2014 3:15pm by Thayos

Edited, Jun 4th 2014 3:15pm by Thayos
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#33 Jun 04 2014 at 4:51 PM Rating: Good
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That could be done, but I'd also like to see different styles of combat. We've done a lot of assault/boss type content in which we are the invaders in the situation.

But a different kind of endgame persuit could be the opposite of that situation. What if, in fact, we were the defenders? We had Hamlet defense in 1.0 and I think we could expound on that further. Have a period of time in a zone to set up fortifications/post troupes traps, etc, and then after that time expires, we have to defend against waves of onslaught, having to personally fight and defend, assault specific key enemies to stall the flow of troups, defend key support objectives, recover wounded, etc.

It would be far more involved than the simple 8 man raid we've been accustomed to, and it can still be tuned to be difficult and require co-ordination.

While the current instanced end-game could use some reassessment in approach, I really do think the ultimate solution to resolving frustrations in end game is to simply provide a varied endgame. If SE notices that some of their endgame is unpopular, they can then adjust the issues presented without suffering a complete burnout of the players, as they'd simply shift to what they enjoy more in the long run.
#34 Jun 04 2014 at 4:53 PM Rating: Excellent
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
Just out of curiosity, what else would you consider difficult if the 'reactions' were removed from the equation?

Things like T4 and Garuda EX are good examples. They're hard fights (or were pre-echo and i100 gear anyway) that don't rely too much on twitchy dodge mechanics. If you wipe on Garuda EX it's probably because someone popped the spiny early or you didn't kill adds fast enough or something. Those are issues you can try to fix on the next attempt. IMO that's much better fight design than "pray that everyone can dodge every single plume/landslide perfectly this time."

Edited, Jun 4th 2014 6:21pm by Karlina
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#35 Jun 04 2014 at 4:59 PM Rating: Excellent
Quote:
Things like T4 and Garuda EX are good examples.


Yes, Garuda EX is a fantastic example! Very fun fight, and definitely difficult, too. Still took awhile to learn and beat it, but it wasn't pointlessly unforgiving and the battle allowed for some adaption.

Titan HM (pre echo) and EX are just... blah. Titan HM literally drove several of my XI friends from the game.
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#36 Jun 04 2014 at 8:47 PM Rating: Decent
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I stopped reading when she said sky sea and dya were the height of endgame, the height of endgame was salvage and nyzule isle. The perfect balance of gimmicks and just strong mobs. Truth be told I feel without some gimmicks all the endgame content becomes the same and that becomes bland
#37 Jun 04 2014 at 10:27 PM Rating: Default
domice wrote:
I stopped reading when she said sky sea and dya were the height of endgame, the height of endgame was salvage and nyzule isle. The perfect balance of gimmicks and just strong mobs. Truth be told I feel without some gimmicks all the endgame content becomes the same and that becomes bland


Comparing endgame to FFXI is just a huge fail in general in this day and age, sadly. You have the little gems like nyzul isle surrounded by the mountains of crappy game design.
#38 Jun 05 2014 at 12:15 AM Rating: Default
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ITT: Japanese person complains that the game isnt hard enough and foolishly believes casual players need more skill driven content.

Sorry, but that was a waste of reading. Just someone ranting without thinking about how the remaining 95% of the playerbase feels towards things.
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#39 Jun 05 2014 at 1:26 AM Rating: Decent
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KojiroSoma wrote:
ITT: Japanese person complains that the game isnt hard enough and foolishly believes casual players need more skill driven content.

Sorry, but that was a waste of reading. Just someone ranting without thinking about how the remaining 95% of the playerbase feels towards things.


ITT: Kojiro's finger on the pulse of the XIV community and their needs Smiley: wink
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#40 Jun 05 2014 at 1:36 AM Rating: Decent
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It honestly was. But you know what? I'll break it down for you anyways. I have no intention of preserving the format since it's a gigantic wall of text so I'll just respond as I go along.

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You often hear comments from people saying they personally feel the game is fun or not fun.


Yes, just like you do in every other MMO. That is nothing new. Just look at the Blizzard WoW forums.

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After all, the less people we have subscribed to an MMORPG, the less money there is to go towards future development costs, the game will begin to die out and then it's Game Over.


Except, many MMOs have survived past their 'expiration' dates.

Quote:
Once again, this is not a post about making arguments like "well I think the game is fun because I can clear the contents" or "you just don't think it's fun because you can't clear the contents".

I do not intend to write about the end-game contents from such a one-sided standpoint.


That's good because I feel, from reading the OP, that he/she would not be able to give a credible argument for either of these points.

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A mechanics-driven battle system

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The current end-game battle system in FFXIV can be summarized in one word: mechanics. In a boss fight, you often feel like you're not actually fighting the boss but rather the fight-specifc mechanics (aka “gimmicks”).


I'm sorry but we must be playing different games. As explained earlier, T7 is a great example of an encounter that is entirely controlled by the user.

And I'd actually argue that mechanic-driven fights are vastly superior to the counterpart which is throw a bunch of half-awake bodies at it (in large numbers) till it dies..which is what 11 and WoW were for a long time. WoW actually did have some really cool mechanics and yes: they did one-shot you and wipe your raid if you weren't careful. This is not new.

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If one person in your party fails to address the mechanic, that person will usually die instantly and/or cause the party to wipe. Of course, such a mechanic is a valid and important element in a fight, but if you must repeat this process quickly, over and over again (in 30, 45, 60 second intervals, for example), then it becomes something commonly referred to (by Japanese players) as "team rope jumping" (大縄跳び).


1) This does not always cause a wipe and 2) team 'rope jumping' is actually a very good strategy for designing end game content.

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Of course, failure to address the mechanics usually requires a restart, with very little chance of recovery.


Actually, it doesn't. If you are skilled enough at your job, you can recover from situations that you normally wouldn't be able to.

Deaths in T6 and T7 happen. Everything can be recovered from. Deaths in T9 happen all the time: these can all be recovered from. Doesn't matter what role you play: each can be resurrected and go back to performing their duties.

This statement alone tells me that the OP does not have a solid grasp on mechanics that currently exist in the SCoB.

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In Turn 2, Allagan Rot is (still) the faster method. However, anyone who cannot properly handle the mechanic will still die and possibly wipe the party. The mechanics has been eased to the point where even if one or two people mess up you may still be able to clear it. Nevertheless, the enrage method remains the mainstream strategy.


Responsibility for your own debuffs is a huge part of almost EVERY MMO ON THE MARKET RIGHT NOW and has been for the past 5 years. This mechanic is extremely prevalent in WoW.

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In Turn 5, if you cannot deal with the mechanics of divebombs, twister, etc., you will not be able to win no matter what your character or equipment level is, with or without Echo. In fact, if your DPS is too high, you will actually run into trouble with Conflag/Fire Balls.


1) Bullsh*t 2) if your DPS is too high, you actually revert back to a normal conflag/fireball rotation. If the OP had done any of this content with the echo buff, he/she would have known this. It appears he/she hasn't, though.

If you aren't familiar with T5, fireball and conflag can become misaligned due to when Twintania transitions phases (at 85%). Even if they're misaligned, it isn't a huge deal. It doesn't ***** you over at all. My group had to deal with this mechanic for around 2 months after we kept gearing up.

It's bullsh*t because you CAN survive a divebomb now with the HP buff, you don't NEED all the DPS alive to down a stunned target in the twister phase due to DPS increases, and EVERY job can be picked up if someone dies: it isn't a wipe.

The biggest problem people actually have in this fight seems to be the DPS check on the snakes..which is really embarassing with the echo buff. This points to a player skill problem: lack of knowledge about your own job and role and not a flaw in the fight itself.

Right now, my FC does T5 and we kill the big snake...then we have to wait around 25 seconds before Twintania comes back down to perform aetheric profusion. When I do this with PF groups, we barely get the big snake down in time. And yes: I run parses on all my groups. I study the outgoing damage of my other members. I /know/ they are ******** up their rotations and this is definitely a player skill problem.

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So despite the first Coil being nerfed to cater to the supposedly mainstream crowd, the "if you cannot deal with the mechanics, then you can't win" principle remains unchanged.


Glad we cleared up this misconception.

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In T5, there may be situations where you can recover from a poorly handled mechanic. But if you were to ask someone whether you can still win if the tanks died to a divebomb, the answer will always be "no".


Do you know what swiftcast raise/res is? Do you know how to pop big cooldowns and use cover on your healers to make up for the death?

How is your PLD even dying on the divebombs with tempered will. WARs have plenty of HP to mitigate 2 divebombs with the current echo buff assuming they aren't knocked into a wall.

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What about the Second Coil then? Now that everyone has more HP, more DPS, more healing power... do you have any chance of winning without handling all mechanics perfectly?


We just went over this. In fact, I've posted T9 videos where we've had multiple deaths but have succeeded in the end.

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In the future, even when the contents get nerfed, they don't actually get "eased". You will still have your Allagan Rot mistakes and your Voice/Shriek mistakes. For those players who dislike dealing with such mechanics, the contents will become no less annoying and no more entertaining even after a nerf.


And that is their problem and their choice. This is what endgame raiding is about: sorry to say. If we are going to follow WoW models (heroic or not), this is what you're going to have to deal with.

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I noticed this myself for the first time when I easily cleared T6 on my Scholar, despite White Mage being my main job.
I have only limited experience with my Scholar, and only cleared T5 with it a couple of times. Suddenly I'm clearing the Second Coil with it easily.


There is not much of a difference between SCH and WHM on T6 so this is completely irrelevant.

Edited, Jun 5th 2014 3:53am by HitomeOfBismarck
#41 Jun 05 2014 at 1:48 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
And this is precisely because the battle system is tuned to be heavily driven by mechanics. The fights are designed so that you can probably clear it as long as you have a basic understanding of your role and know the mechanics of the fight. Experience and gear only comes after that.


Basic understanding of your role = experience playing the role. Gear matters to everyone that does not belong to the '10% hardcore' group you claim below.

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In a mechanics-driven battle system, an understanding of the mechanics makes the fight easier, not higher character or item levels.

Your character or item level is nothing but a measurement of the "minimum requirement" necessary for clearing the content.


This is a huge misunderstanding about how mechanic-driven games work. T8, for example, is a DPS race. If you do not have the gear, you will not be clearing it: I don't care how much experience you have. The same goes for T9.

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That's why many end-game fights in this game - including Coil - can be cleared quickly if everyone fully understands and can respond to the mechanics. On the other hand, if you cannot adequately respond to the mechanics, then you will never be able to clear those contents.


That's why it took several months for the first T5 clear? That's why most groups are still struggling with T9 despite guides being released with step-by-step walkthroughs and tutorials?

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The development team categorizes the players into three categories


News to me.

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From a population perspective, the causal players make up maybe about 60% of the population, the mainstream players perhaps another 30% or so (might not be exact). Now, the true hardcore players probably take up less than 10% of the population.


Oh goody: statistics based on observation with no hard data to back them up.

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For the majority of hardcore players, clearing mechanics-laden contents is actually quite boring.

You memorize the fight to the point where no mistakes will be made, you find 7 other people who also don't make mistakes, if you encounter someone who makes mistakes, you kick that person and replace until you find someone who doesn't (or until you give up). Once you clear the content you're done for the week.


Oh so the feeling of joy I get every Tuesday when it's raid day is irrelevant because apparently I'm actually bored with the content. Smiley: rolleyes

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There are some people who have asked for contents to be more "challenging". I'm fairly certain they're not asking for it from a battle mechanics perspective.


Fairly certain are you? You seem to be quite out of touch with the hardcore community.

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A mechanic is merely something you need to address, the steps of which is just something you repeat over and over again, so it is "boring" in that sense.


So why do so many people have trouble addressing these scripted mechanics then?

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The largest group here, the casual players, have all yet to still challenge the Extreme Primals and Coil. But the reality is that a large portion of this group have already stopped playing altogether.


Honestly, this bracket is where most ZAM members sit at the moment...and most seem to be actively playing.

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Many players are stuck on Extreme Primals due to the mechanics-driven nature of the fights. They can't react to them even if it's explained to them. They simply cannot clear unless they get lucky.

Even with the power of Echo, as mentioned earlier, it does nothing to help them clear the fight if they cannot deal with the mechanics. If they could then they would have cleared them long ago even without the Echo buff or the now-higher gear level.


Yes: this is called player skill. Unfortunately, the level at which you must play to clear these encounters is quite high. Extremes should not have been available to everyone.

Then he/she goes on to make stupid assumptions about how the hardcore crowd feels.

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Changing the battle system

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Turn 4..

For a tank, this may be their skill in managing their cooldowns, their timing in using technical skills such as shield bash and flash, with the ultimate goal of reducing incoming damage.


Oh and once you get this down, it just becomes repetitive and monotonous. Definitely not like a gimmick.

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For a DPS, this may be their skill in evading enemy attacks and managing cooldowns, and positioning themselves to deliver the most damage.


What is there to evade in T4 besides a cleave or two?

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In all cases, acting too soon or too late will have lethal consequences. Not acting accordingly will gradually cause the fight to become more and more challenging.


Acting too soon will have lethal consequences you say? lol

[quote]This way, it is possible to increase the difficulty of the fight and cause players to die or wipe without needing to rely only on mechanics.[/quote]

Yeah it's called a gear wall.

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A battle system that recognizes player skill

[quote]The only reason why this would be the case is simply because “DPS checks” are in many of the end-game fights (such as Titan's heart phase). If weight of the land (aka "plumes") kept coming then it will cause the DPS to drop and ultimately result in the inability to clear the fight “because the plumes kept coming”.[/quote]

DPS checks are quite prevalent in WoW and have been for years.

Edited, Jun 5th 2014 3:54am by HitomeOfBismarck
#42 Jun 05 2014 at 2:00 AM Rating: Decent
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Having more freedom in setting your own party size... or not

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I don't think the development team quite understands just what made these contents so good for many players. And that is “as long as certain key jobs are in the party, you're more or less free to build the rest of the party any way you liked” (a FFXIV raid leader reading this is probably thinking “I wish!” right now)

I personally played those contents in XI for many years. To get rare gears? Of course, that too. But the more accurate response would be “I was just playing with my friends and before I realized it years have gone by”. Of course I got the gears I wanted, but I continued playing even after getting those.

Yoshi-P says “people get tired of contents after about 3 months”, and that's absolutely wrong. Everyone played these things for years at a time, and even the more recent Abyssea update had me playing for well over a year.


You did them for years because of the horrendously low drop rates and that is all there is to it.

How off the mark can you be?

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Why people enjoyed the pre-lv50 dungeons

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And that's why they're “fun”.


Not once have I ever enjoyed them outside of the first playthrough

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Dungeons where there are instant death mechanics like Qarn are generally disliked by players and people tend to not want to run them. I think all of you should know why by now.


Qarn is long and not worth the run, usually. Only the first boss has the type of mechanic that is spoken of..and even if someone botches it, it is easily 2 and 3 mannable. There are no instant death mechanics in Cutter's Cry yet people still abandon that one as well.

Your logic is flawed...once again.

FilthMcNasty wrote:
ITT: Kojiro's finger on the pulse of the XIV community and their needs Smiley: wink


ITT: Why Filth feels like he is qualified to give his opinion regarding the current state of FF14 endgame affairs when he isn't actually there doing the content.

Edited, Jun 5th 2014 4:05am by HitomeOfBismarck
#43 Jun 05 2014 at 8:18 AM Rating: Excellent
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I mostly blame myself for not downing Titan Ex or T5 yet. I am a very skilled player but I've waited too long (because I paused to help my FC mates) to progress that I am now sooooo far behind, and people no longer want to allow new people to the fights, nor allow them to learn. (Watching videos help but actual experience is how you learn.) Putting PF groups together isn't a great solution, because most of the population (on my server) has been on Leviathan Ex and T6-9 farm mode since, ****, what seems like the week it came out, and they don't want to waste their time. Because of this my confidence now lacks, and when someone calls me a ******, idiot, incompetent, etc. for dying to a mechanic just once, it brings me down even more, and makes me want to quit all together. If you're not up to speed with everyone else, you're seriously s.o.l.

I can't suggest on how to improve my situation without making an argument for an easier fight though. So maybe ffxiv isn't the mmo for me anymore, or maybe mmos in general just aren't, idk. I'd like to wait for the first expansion though and see if anything changes as far as how they handle endgame from there.

I guess not making one extreme primal a pre-requisite for completing the next? Like having them on separate missions/story lines, so I don't feel like a burden to myself, the community, or friends for not being able to finish one or the other.
#44 Jun 05 2014 at 12:02 PM Rating: Good
Niklz wrote:
I mostly blame myself for not downing Titan Ex or T5 yet. I am a very skilled player but I've waited too long (because I paused to help my FC mates) to progress that I am now sooooo far behind, and people no longer want to allow new people to the fights, nor allow them to learn. (Watching videos help but actual experience is how you learn.) Putting PF groups together isn't a great solution, because most of the population (on my server) has been on Leviathan Ex and T6-9 farm mode since, sh*t, what seems like the week it came out, and they don't want to waste their time. Because of this my confidence now lacks, and when someone calls me a ******, idiot, incompetent, etc. for dying to a mechanic just once, it brings me down even more, and makes me want to quit all together. If you're not up to speed with everyone else, you're seriously s.o.l.

I can't suggest on how to improve my situation without making an argument for an easier fight though. So maybe ffxiv isn't the mmo for me anymore, or maybe mmos in general just aren't, idk. I'd like to wait for the first expansion though and see if anything changes as far as how they handle endgame from there.

I guess not making one extreme primal a pre-requisite for completing the next? Like having them on separate missions/story lines, so I don't feel like a burden to myself, the community, or friends for not being able to finish one or the other.


This is the issue with newer content obsoleting old content that needs to be completed in order to access the newer content. All the players caapable of winning these fights have moved on and have 0 incentive to go back and help newcomers. Echo was supposed to help facilitate that, of course, in one shot kill mechanics, it doesn't help.

Leviathan EX, which is newer content, was bad after 2 weeks. All the people got their items from it, moved onto coil and now you're stuck struggling with the PFer. What's worse, is once you take Titan out, you get stuck with Ifrit. He's definitely easier, IF, your healers know what they're doing. Good luck finding two healers who are willing to help with that though. All of this is even more infuriating if you feel you're more than capable of going through these fights unscathed. While everyone else is just sitting in plumes, landslides or flat out not doing their job properly.
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#45 Jun 05 2014 at 12:25 PM Rating: Excellent
Quote:
This is the issue with newer content obsoleting old content that needs to be completed in order to access the newer content. All the players caapable of winning these fights have moved on and have 0 incentive to go back and help newcomers. Echo was supposed to help facilitate that, of course, in one shot kill mechanics, it doesn't help.


Which is why, as I said in another thread, SE really needs to address the situation with Free Companies.

Although players have the freedom to join different linkshells, linkshells simply don't carry the same social weight as FCs. Also, linkshells don't have any infrastructure for planning events... there are no ls message functions, no bulletin boards, etc. They're just glorified chat channels. Plus, people in XIV don't identify with their linkshells... they identify with their FCs.

As the game's population has settled a bit... some players leaving, and new players joining... what you have are some FCs that are rather large, but then a lot of smaller FCs that don't have many active members on at the same time. Many of these FCs don't want to abandon their groups and merge with others, either because they're already spend millions on housing/furnishings or because they've already put in the work to reach Rank 8. So, rather than move around and join more active, lively groups, these smaller FCs remain anchored, and thus the community as a whole is more isolated.

I strongly believe having the ability to join more than one FC (or, as an alternative, give linkshells some infrastructure to organize) would work wonders for the social and progression aspects of this game.

Also worth noting is the "Free Company Alliance" system, which Yoshi-P had said was coming, but hasn't been delivered yet (or recently spoken of).

It's not that people are unwilling to be helpful with older content... it's just that people are far more likely to be helping those who are in their FCs.
____________________________
Thayos Redblade
Jormungandr
Hyperion
#46 Jun 05 2014 at 1:29 PM Rating: Excellent
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1,556 posts
Montsegurnephcreep wrote:
This is the issue with newer content obsoleting old content that needs to be completed in order to access the newer content. All the players caapable of winning these fights have moved on and have 0 incentive to go back and help newcomers. Echo was supposed to help facilitate that, of course, in one shot kill mechanics, it doesn't help.

Leviathan EX, which is newer content, was bad after 2 weeks. All the people got their items from it, moved onto coil and now you're stuck struggling with the PFer. What's worse, is once you take Titan out, you get stuck with Ifrit. He's definitely easier, IF, your healers know what they're doing. Good luck finding two healers who are willing to help with that though. All of this is even more infuriating if you feel you're more than capable of going through these fights unscathed. While everyone else is just sitting in plumes, landslides or flat out not doing their job properly.


http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodestone/topics/detail/8dc622fc5270bf758ba090a2902e844a5d2493ba
Quote:
TheLord of Levin[/url]]* As of patch 2.3, completion of The Howling Eye (Extreme), The Navel (Extreme), and The Bowl of Embers (Extreme) are no longer required to challenge The Whorleater (Extreme) or Thornmarch (Extreme).
#47 Jun 05 2014 at 1:31 PM Rating: Default
**
641 posts
Titan Extreme made my FC stop doing things together on a weekly basis. Trying to clear Titan Extreme and Turn 5 were an exercise in futility. If you try to make a training group, most of the time the training group doesn't make it past some of the first mechanics of a fight. "Training after heart" means "Training before heart", "Win group" means "Training after heart". After clearing Turn 5 many times I could easily tell some players I had earlier worked with before would be a burden for the group and would leave right away sometimes without mentioning why. I think those fights did indeed bring out my bad sides frequently before I beat the fight and I don't really feel like helping out new players with it. It boggles my mind when everyone in a Titan HM group that are decked out in animus weapons and coil gear ends up eating dirt multiple times and leave the platform unintentionally (this did in fact happen yesterday in a duty roulette).
#48 Jun 05 2014 at 1:41 PM Rating: Good
HitomeOfBismarck wrote:
Montsegurnephcreep wrote:
This is the issue with newer content obsoleting old content that needs to be completed in order to access the newer content. All the players caapable of winning these fights have moved on and have 0 incentive to go back and help newcomers. Echo was supposed to help facilitate that, of course, in one shot kill mechanics, it doesn't help.

Leviathan EX, which is newer content, was bad after 2 weeks. All the people got their items from it, moved onto coil and now you're stuck struggling with the PFer. What's worse, is once you take Titan out, you get stuck with Ifrit. He's definitely easier, IF, your healers know what they're doing. Good luck finding two healers who are willing to help with that though. All of this is even more infuriating if you feel you're more than capable of going through these fights unscathed. While everyone else is just sitting in plumes, landslides or flat out not doing their job properly.


http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodestone/topics/detail/8dc622fc5270bf758ba090a2902e844a5d2493ba
Quote:
TheLord of Levin[/url]]* As of patch 2.3, completion of The Howling Eye (Extreme), The Navel (Extreme), and The Bowl of Embers (Extreme) are no longer required to challenge The Whorleater (Extreme) or Thornmarch (Extreme).


That's good, hopefully they keep it up for future content. Like I said, Leviathan is a pain in the *** now to try and win. How about Turn 6? Do you still need to clear T5 to get access to it?
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#49 Jun 05 2014 at 1:44 PM Rating: Excellent
**
641 posts
Montsegurnephcreep wrote:
How about Turn 6? Do you still need to clear T5 to get access to it?


Yes.
#50 Jun 05 2014 at 3:29 PM Rating: Good
**
617 posts
HitomeOfBismarck wrote:
Montsegurnephcreep wrote:
This is the issue with newer content obsoleting old content that needs to be completed in order to access the newer content. All the players caapable of winning these fights have moved on and have 0 incentive to go back and help newcomers. Echo was supposed to help facilitate that, of course, in one shot kill mechanics, it doesn't help.

Leviathan EX, which is newer content, was bad after 2 weeks. All the people got their items from it, moved onto coil and now you're stuck struggling with the PFer. What's worse, is once you take Titan out, you get stuck with Ifrit. He's definitely easier, IF, your healers know what they're doing. Good luck finding two healers who are willing to help with that though. All of this is even more infuriating if you feel you're more than capable of going through these fights unscathed. While everyone else is just sitting in plumes, landslides or flat out not doing their job properly.


http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodestone/topics/detail/8dc622fc5270bf758ba090a2902e844a5d2493ba
Quote:
TheLord of Levin[/url]]* As of patch 2.3, completion of The Howling Eye (Extreme), The Navel (Extreme), and The Bowl of Embers (Extreme) are no longer required to challenge The Whorleater (Extreme) or Thornmarch (Extreme).


I was going to post this here myself. So now that Titan EX can be skipped altogether if you still can't beat him...does that make people happy? Nashred? Lebarge (if he's still around.) Hyrist? Anyone else I missed?

(And no, I'm not knocking against anyone, I'm actually quite happy about the above change.)
#51 Jun 05 2014 at 3:59 PM Rating: Excellent
Quote:
I was going to post this here myself. So now that Titan EX can be skipped altogether if you still can't beat him...does that make people happy? Nashred? Lebarge (if he's still around.) Hyrist? Anyone else I missed?


Patch 2.3 hasn't hit yet, so those battles aren't completely unlocked yet.
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Thayos Redblade
Jormungandr
Hyperion
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